Control Your #$%^ing Language!
 

There's something I've been noticing alot lately. People curse at the most inappropriate times. For example, Today someone spit out "God Damnit" when they left something in their car at the church's Easter dinner. Ok, I curse alot but I've never cursed in church, in front of my parents, or anywhere that might offend someone. To me it's disrespectful. My parents don't curse(much) so I'm not going to curse in their home, My priest doesn't curse so I'm not going to curse around him. It's simple. Am I the only one that actually knows what I'm saying before I actually say it? I just don't understand it, When I'm somewhere that cussing/cursing is looked down on, the words just leave my vocabulary. I'm not going to say them out of suprise or anger, and I'm definitely not going to say them in my regular conversations.

Anyone have any thoughts or opinions about this? Are you the one cursing at inappropriate moments? Does it bother you when other people do it? Even if you curse alot yourself? Seriously, What's going through your head when you're about to curse in a church? Do you think half way through about where you are but it's too late, or do you even care?

I think that cursing should be used only when it's needed. If you cuss in the church parking lot, ok, that's fine, if you start going off on a tirade in front of the priest you may need some help.

I'd be suprised if people didn't conciously understand where and when their language was appropriate or wasn't appropriate with the people around them. Of all the people I've met, they've all had a pretty good grasp on what was okay and not okay to say around the people that were around them. Most didn't drop the f-bomb in front of their parents. Generally those people knew when it was okay and when it wasn't okay to walk around saying "Fuck this, Fuck that."

I don't curse at inappropriate times. In general I try not to curse because I think for the most part it's inappropriate; obviously there are times when some one can let off a bit of foul language, but I think in everyday conversation saying fuck this and fuck that is pretty much inappropriate. If you are constantly walking around talking like that, you probably need a dictionary to add some words to your vocabulary.

When people curse just on a whim when it's not necessary, it bothers me. I had a friend who would walk around with me cussing to her heart's content and that was always something I thought was slightly inaproppriate.

I guess ultimately theres's a time and a place, and you should respect that. People who don't respect that always bother me.

Ever consider that there are some people who don't really give a fuck if someone decides to be offended by their language?

No offense meant, but there are always at least two sides to each coin. You abstain from swearing because you believe it will offend people, and I similarly chose not to care if someone is so close-minded that they'd judge me based on my use of expletives or lack thereof. I have large vocabulary, and it'd be ridiculous to use "fuck" or "shit" as an integral part of every sentence, but frankly I couldn't give a damn if someone is going to be offended by my use of a word that THEY decided was offensive. I further think that labelling some words as taboo and not others is capricious and arbitrary at best.

A perfect example; I decide that using "person" when referring to someone is offensive to me. Would you honestly expect the people around me to stop using "person" because I've decided it's offensive? The words' stereotyped roles as offensive words only exists because societal tools continue to be offended by their use. If everyone stopped being "offended" by fuck, it'd probably fall out of common usage.

what the fuck are you talking about!?

I curse too much, or should I say, more than I think I should, however have no objection to it. I just keep noticing that the word wasn't nessacery. If every second word is fuck, it loses it's meaning.

To quote Billy Conally, "There's no such thing as bad language, only bad use of good language".

I do make an effort not to curse where I deem it inappropriate... But hell, I'm 20 and in college, 95% of my time, it doesnt matter, and those words are in my vocabulary. And as they dont offend me, I don't care that they are there.

Once it gets to that point... Well you would be surprised how often one of those favorite phrases just slips out before you consciously notice. Afterwards there is usually a brief moment of regret, but then... Well, move the fuck on.

EDIT: And by the way, just because I curse semi-often, does not mean I lack other vocabulary. There is a right word for every situation, and sometimes that word is just "Shit, Piss, Fuck, Cunt, Cocksucker, Motherfucker [or] Tits"

I've never understood the reasoning behind curse words. I mean... what makes any one word different than another? Who decided that Fuck was worse than sex? I think words are just simply words. I don't understand how people try to argue that it's the context that makes a difference. I mean if it's in how you say something, then I can call you a "Tree!" while I'm angry and it should then be a curse word .. right?? :confused:

As far as being respectful, I'll be respectful towards my 'rents and a few other people, but they also give that same respect back and just ignore my "devlish" vocabulary if I do say some "curse" words.

I cuss all the time.

But not around people that find it offensive. Then again, they are just words like guccilvr said. No biggy, everyone uses them, and to be *not offended* by curse words.. is a good thing (?)

If someone tells me to "Fuck off" right in the face, I don't really give a shit. I'm not offended and will just laugh it off. Guess more tolerance to foul language gives you a lighter temper. :lol:

Some people have self control while others do not.

Some people care about others. Some do not care.

I personally choose to exercise a little self control for the sake of others. Besides I think people who swear regularly and without self control tend to appear a little less intelligent in my eyes at least. I'm not sure how they appear to others but that's my view of them.

Personally, I curse a lot, but it's mainly limited to work where it's part of the office culture. At home, my language is a lot cleaner although there is a certain amount of "leakage". It's not that my wife doesn't curse, but she's not as creative about it or frequent as I am. When I'm out with friends, especially an all-male crowd, I'll get diaherra of the mouth pretty fast.

That all said, here in the office our receptionist is one of the nicest people in the world and really just a kind and gentle soul. She's also a very invovled Seventh Day Adventist and doesn't curse at all and doesn't really like it when we curse around her. Some of my colleague don't make any effort at all around her, but she's such a nice person, that I try to control my mouth. My point is that I'll control myself when someone I know and like is offended by it. Or if there are kids involved.

I use foul language in different situations and refuse to in others.

Some examples... as a musician, socializing with them language like this often is used as adjectives "that guy is a motherfucker" said by a jazz musician is a complament and all other Jazz musicians know this to be true, Badass, The Shit, or other things in front of it, for example 'Trane was a Goddamn Motherfucker' is a very high praise. Still, some are offended if they were brought up say in an ultra-conservative home. If that's the case and someone claims discomfort I will tone it down but I refuse to not express myself for the sake of someone's lifestyle that maybe I am offended by. I try to meet half way. I have a friend who is Mormon, and is a sweet man but does not like cursing around him. What to do in this situation, all I can hope for is to tone it down. He doesnt' thumb a bible in front of me... so I won't call him a Motherfucker. Seems to work.

The world is strange right now. Children learn the language now way faster then I did when I was growing up in terms of slang and in fact invent their own know that older generations don't understand. Video games, television, internet, movies all have gotten leaner on language and parents just seem to not care. I've known kids to call their mothers Bitches to their face and to be honest that's unacceptable to me. On the other hand, the adult world is far to concerned with being PC all the time. It's an interesting cross culture

That being said, breaking Commandments like saying "Ah god damn it, or Jesus Christ" in a church or Church parking lot would make me uncomfortable.

I do not swear in front of women I do not know, or in front of my Mother, or most other lady relatives (exception of my sister).

I use to cuss profoundly but lately it has really gone down to minimal without any real explanation for it.

I don't like to walk down the street and just hear someone going off with 'fuck this' and 'faggot that'. But it's their choice to be mad or colourful with language and as long as there are no children who am I to judge.

There are also some words that I find just outright offensive and never use them, except to inform people I hate them and most of them are demeaning to women or sexual preference ie, Faggot, Cunt.

The cultural view on swearing has changed as of late, and I'm as guilty as anyone.

This is a situation where I blame T.V., it has made it acceptable, from shows like South Park, to the Sopranos, to countless others. When you get constantly exposed to something you pick up on it language wise.

Perhaps...it's not so much about trying not to offend other people as it is simply showing respect.
And like it or not, you will always be judged on how you speak, how you dress, and how you generally present yourself. To view that process as "close-minded' is a bit naive, in my opinion.

We already did this: Tilted Forum Project - Words of the feather, words of the sword....

And, if anyone wants to discuss this further, I'd bet that there is a significant correlation between "people who think profanity is acceptable at anytime" and age.

And a similar correlation between age and unncessary offense.

Don't worry Jinn, you will get over it in time.

I am most bothered when people swear around my kids. If you're in public and there are kids around, show a little restraint. Some people clearly don't care as they swear around their own kids, so there is nothing to be done about them, but otherwise, can it.

Buuuuuuurrrn..

Hopefully I don't become so old that everything people say has to offend me. In an ideal world, people would learn that taking offense at other's actions is nothing more than a waste of time. What intrinsic value does it have?

If I say something blatantly offensive, you can choose whether to take offense or whether to ignore it. My personal belief is that the mature person ignores it, and the immature person takes offense. Further extending this idea, I can assume that if I say something offensive and am in mature company, that I should not have to worry about causing true offense. Am I missing something?

For example:

If I know that saying cunt offends you, and I say it; would it not be silly to actually BE offended by it? It affords me a control over you that you shouldn't be allowing me to have, especially sice I don't have your best interests in mind, attempting to offend you. By ignoring it, you pacify my attempt to offend, and it becomes useless. My argument would further continue that most people understand this, and disregard the opinions of those they find to be offensive. The next logical conclusion is that I should only worry about offending if I'm afraid the offended person will then ignore me in the future.

And thus I return to my original idea; if someone is going to take the close-minded approach and ignore me(yes, it is still close-minded, regardless of its prevalence) then I really don't care if they ignore me, and similarly dont care if I offend.

Yea when I applied to dental school, I told them it would be fucking cool if I could be a dentist, and being open minded they accepted me right then.

Then like when someone needs I tooth out I say 'Woah man that tooth is all fucked up, we need to pull that shit out!' and they know they can trust me.

JinnKai, little buddy, its all part of growing up, you seem smart so I think you will learn. Now if you excuse me I have to write a letter to some fucking bitch MD who is whining about some shit and I have to write the cunt a fucking letter, which is a waste of my fucking time, since I already explained it to the bitch on the phone.

It has nothing to do with age and everything to do with priorities. Giving people the right to say whatever the fuck they want will always be more important to me than catering to a minority who choses to be offended by what they say. If I had my way the FCC would not exist, nor any organization who strove to censor the most fundamental of my rights. My father is 60 years old and is the strongest believer in this that I have ever met, so I can tell you right now that it has nothing to do with my age.

By telling people what they can and cannot say, you're pushing YOUR morals and what YOU think is offensive on other people.

correct, you never know when you are making a first impression...

Words may just be words, but one should remember, The toes you step on today may be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow.

You decide for yourself what's acceptable... I'm just make a simple suggestion that a first impression is important. If swearing was so important to you, why don't you say when meeting an interviewer for the first time, "Well, Shit howdy! Glad to fuckin' meet you. I've been wanting this fucking job for so long because I need the fucking money so god damn fucking bad, you know fucking bills and all."

Thought so.

I find it difficult to have any respect for a person that will cuss in front of children "just because they can"

You want to cuss in front of me? fine no problem, but you do it in front of my child then you've got one pissed off mother fucking momma on your hands

Because they will be offended, and in this case, I do fear them ignoring me? That caveat was in my post, you'll note.

Everyone makes exceptions to their language when they have something to gain or they fear that the reciever will ignore of think less of them. I never encouraged anyone to ignore this basic fact of human sociology, only that (in respose to the OP's question) some of us don't give a fuck the rest of the time. His decision of when it is "inappropriate" to swear and when it is not is based on his own politically correct interpretation of the world. Frankly, I don't see a problem with saying God Damnit in a church parking lot, and I really don't care that someone would be offended if I did. They're likely not the kind of person I would associate with, anyway.

Further, the OP implied that those of us who speak frankly are "unaware of what we say before we say it," which is patently false. I often know that what I'm saying will offend someone, but I don't give a fuck. They obviously aren't bringing anything politically progressive to the table if they're so concerned about my use of "whore."

They're just words! Stop letting people control you with their verbiage. I swear no one understands anymore that offense is a CHOICE.

OK hold the fuckin phone.


So.. to people who have an issue with cursing in front of kids... how can you take issue with your children hearing those words yet you don't take offense to using them yourselves?? That doesn't make any sense at all. Besides, you can shelter them all you want, but let me assure you they will find and hear it and probably use it in other places that you aren't in.

How can I take issue? Very easlily, I dont cuss in front of my child....I dont really cuss all that much anyway because I can usually find a more intelligent way to get my point across....pain is an exception...sometimes the only thing you can say when you hurt is a cuss word.

I dont expect my child to live in a vacuum, I know she hears it elsewhere, but its MY example, and what I allow people around both me and her to do that is important.

I also fail to see how not cursing is somehow more intelligent. ...


I understand wanting your children to be a certain way or whatever, but if you curse at all then I don't see how anyone could possibly get mad at anyone else for doing the same thing.

simple, its called not having respect for the behaviour I deem acceptable around my child. I would never cuss in front of someone elses child whether their parents do it or not. Just because YOU fail to see it, doesnt make my decision any less right for me and the raising of my daughter.....same as I fail to see how you can think its an ok thing to do to break a law in front of kids (ie not wearing your seatbelt).

Its prob just a difference of how we were raised. If you're a person that cannot accept that I dont find it acceptable and choose to do it anyway, thats your perogative, but dont expect me to stay quiet about it when it happens.

For the same reasons its not acceptable for my wife to give me a BJ in public. Circumstances change everything.

I should clarify the only reason I brought the seatbelt thing up is because thats one thing I've seen lately that you were talking about that I dont agree with, NOT because Im trying to be a bitch and attack you gucci!!!

Neither of you explained how INTELLIGENCE is related. I know a bajizillion words that I could use in place of fuck shit ass bitch balls cunt whore, but my choice of one over the other is not indicative of my intelligence, no matter how you choose to define the word.

If you don't have something that I need, your choice to be offended by my language automatically removes you from my list of things to give a damn about.

But it is quite indicative of your class and level of maturity.

You don't have to like it, just know its true, and if you don't mind being labeled as low class then don't worry about it.

Based on that then you are clearly stating that you are selfish and only care about your own concerns.

I tend to be more offended by the perceived intention of a word more than by the word itself. I've been called "Woman" in a very degrading way, and I've been called "cunt" in a light-hearted, joking way.

Of *course* everyone's perception of appropriate vs. inappropriate is Based On Their Perception. That's why it's called perception. It's relative, and there's no way around it.

JinnKai, it seems that your view of cursing and appropriateness and other related points is based on your idea that you can cuss where ever, when ever, and you are strong enough deal with the consequences.
My view is that I can put other people's feelings before my own (to a reasonable point, of course. And *I* decide what is reasonable), and not cuss, because I am strong enough to have the right to, and yet refrain, for no tangible payback. Kinda like Superman as Clark Kent--He knows he's strong enough to kick anyone's @$$ to next week, and yet he's strong enough (and gentle and humble enough) to refrain.

Vocabulary in and of itself does not equate to intelligence....how you use it does (In my opinion anyway)

I never said it was "any less right". I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind these things.

I cannot fathom how any one word holds less or more value than another. Sure, I understand the whole "circumstances" thing and how certain people perceive someone who curses alot to be "low class", (although I find that highly myoptc). It's the same thing as someone perceiving people with tattoos to be low class or a gay person or woman to be lower than the average "normal" male. It's something that just shouldn't matter.

As far as the whole "maturity" and "low class" thing goes, what defines class and maturity?? I think it's all dependant on the person spouting the retort. Everyone has their own view of class. Hell around here, a new hitch for your mobile home is high class.. to me.. it's trash, but it proves my point.

I swear all the time, but i've been trying to clean it up. So far i've been using frak and hamsters in replace of the two most common swear words, i tried with using antidisestablishfuckyouism, but that didn't work.

I've been called worse things. In my book, however, denigrating someone because they use language you find offensive is just as selfish as ignoring those who chose who be overly sensitive.

No where in ANY post I've made denigrates anyone.

I've just held up the mirror to show you where *YOU* do pick and choose how you speak in front of people, which you clearly stated that you didn't care to nor wanted to. Just because you have something to gain shouldn't be the only reason you are respectful to another person, otherwise, why should anyone ever respect you? or me for that matter?

Wow... lots of emotional turmoil in here. Let's not forget we're not here to attack each other, hmm? So let's leave the personal stuff alone, shall we?

Here's me:

1. People must be able to speak their mind, in the way they see fit. No one should ever be prevented from speaking simply because you disagree.
2. People must, however, accept the consequences of their words- whether you're making racist comments, challenging someone to a fight, slandering someone, or simply using vulgar language.
3. The consequences of your words are determined by who hears them, not by you. If someone chooses to be offended by your words, no amount of your refusal to care will make them less offended. If their offense doesn't bother you, then that's that. So when you speak in a setting where you know you might offend, don't act shocked when they complain. See my #1 regarding their complaints.

So the bottom line is- if you want to curse and believe that everyone else should grow a thicker skin and stop letting a "label" like "curse word" get them riled up, you go right ahead... but then don't act surprised when your right to speak is mirrored in their right to complain about it. Likewise, if you lack discretion when it's necessary- say in a professional setting- you must accept the weight your words carry, regardless of your personal feelings.

I curse with some regularity. It depends on who i'm with, and what i'm doing. But in a professional setting, the vulgarities stay tucked away.

And I don't curse in front of kids for the following reason: Until they're old enough to understand what, exactly, those words mean, and the weight they carry, I don't feel comfortable with exposing them to words they don't know how and why to use. Now- if it was a child I was responsible for, I'd be teaching him/her the words myself, in order that they understand exactly what they mean, and when those words are less than appropriate- and why.

If more parents took a step into a place I like to call "reality", and realized that their kids are going to hear those words anyway, they'd properly educate them ahead of time. Or when they're 8 years old and hear someone say, "fuck that," they don't go to school and say "fuck that" to the teacher when asked to read from the book (and yeah, an 8 year old said that to me). My point is NOT that you should be teaching children vulgarities at the age of 8- but there's no way the parents didn't know the kid talked like that, and they should have curbed that behavior with the proper education- because then, I had an entire ROOM FULL of 8 year olds (about 30 of them) who were now exposed to it.

It's really just about respecting the person/people youre around. I don't cuss infront of my dad as he only cusses when he's severly angered (in flashes, like banging a hammer on his finger) but my mom on the other hand...she cusses like a salior so no big deal. It's the same thing with technical jargon, when I'm talking with laymen (as in a novice in the field in question) I don't use psychological terms, some of my "higher" vocab I've gotten from reading, or gaming terms. It's all about relating positively with the people you are with.

I'm going to agree with everything analog said. I curse enough to make a teamster blush, but I choose to not to until I know it won't be taken in the wrong context, and I don't in front of kids.

I am of the mind that if I can avoid conflict or offense simply by changing my language, particularly in certain situations, then it's worth my while to be aware of what I say. This doesn't just apply to profanities; I believe the same is true for blasphemy and racial slurs. However, I recognize that this avoidance of offending others is part of my personality, and may very well not be a part of others', so I find I am very rarely offended by the language of others. Even when I am, simply pausing and reflecting on how useless it is to be offended soon puts it in perspective, as JinnKai has been saying.

Many have commented on how the use of profanity reflects on the user. I agree that someone who swears openly probably has little concern for whether others choose to be offended by it, but I think it's extremely narrow-minded (at best) to make a blanket statement claiming that the use of profanity is indicative of a lack of intelligence. Let me explain why I don't think this is the case. Certain words, repeated many times already in this thread, can evoke emotions that other words cannot. Perhaps more importantly, they can be an insight into the emotions of the person using them. This is recognized by many as a tool, and used as such. If you're watching a movie along the lines of Schindler's List, and a "bad guy" in the movie (Nazi in this case) starts swearing at a victim, using profanity and racial slur, do you question the intelligence of the screenplay writer? No - you recognize the language as necessary for the writer to give you an idea of the hatred the bad guy is feeling. If one of the Jews looks skyward and screams nasty things at God, do you think the Jew is stupid, because they can't think of a more eloquent way of expressing themself? Do you think the script writer is stupid because they can't send an artistic message without using "bad" words?
What about in poetry? What about in music? What about a seargent addressing his/her soldiers before an onslaught? Is the seargent's hypothetical use of swear words a sign of his low intelligence or poor leadership skills? Absolutely not! He or she can bring about a state of mind in the listener that would probably be impossible with other words.

From a reductionist's view, "fuck" is equivalent to "donut"; "cunt" is no better or worse than "frisbee". However, nobody can deny that english-speaking societies carry stigmas associated with certain words. Using these words is a personal choice, but it's important to be aware of the consequences that choice can have. Nevertheless, I think it is incorrect to say that the words are a sign of low intelligence, or should never be used in any setting.

yo, "Jinn" ... isn't it all about "respect" and "right and wrong"?
... without that , what do we have left?
it's also really great that you know a "bazillion" words, but dont have the "intelligence" to know when, and when not to use them.
my bet is, that sometimes you find your self very alone ... even with others in the same room ...
:thumbsup:

And your "choice" to not give a crap about how others feel automatically removes you from their list of things to give a damn about. I guess that's fair. But seems kind of short-sighted, imo. Seems juvenile, in fact, this mind-set of "if you don't like it, then fuck off!"

If this board teaches me any one thing, it's that either (a) my writing skills are far inferior to my verbal skills or (b) other's reading skills are far inferior to their listening skills. I've been using the "internet" for almost 10 years now, and it seems that whenever I communicate a strong feeling in text, its always interpreted differently then it would be in a spoken conversation. I think this is due to a lot of things, mostly that inflection and intent are not well communicated. Furthermore, I can better measure a listener's interpretation and reaction to what I've said by their facial features and mannerisms, and clarify my position before a set in stone "Fuck you JinnKai" appears in their brain.

Having hopped from message board to message board in the last 6 or so years, I've also had the difficulty of determining how verbose I should truly make any given post. In face-to-face conversation, you're likely both discussing a topic because you enjoy it, and you remain in the conversation until one of you leaves -- at which point the conversation ceases. On a dynamic page like a forum, however, the conversation can continue in your absense, and often take a less-than-desired turn before you can counteract the misinterpretations of your words. Worst of all, you don't get a chance to restate something rashly or poorly said, as it's emblazoned in size 12 Arial for all to see.

My generalized conclusion regarding all of these things is that (generally) shorter posts make for far better communication -- the longer I make my posts, the less likely readers are to read and understand the post entirely. Because they're non-active participants in the conversation when they first arrive, a long introductory or response posting is likely to make them hurriedly smash their Back button before they're forced to read the novel that the person replied with. Much like this post; I suspect, even expect, that the majority of the original posters in this thread will not return to read this response. It's either too wordy, or they've already dismissed me as a selfish juvenile. I feel that those who take the time to actually read my oftentimes verbose posts agree with me, and do not take the time to reply.

So in about 2004, I began the process of shortening my posts so that they would be more likely to be read -- after all, if no one is reading my post, then I'm truly talking to myself. However, the risk of writing "short and sweet" responses is that they often you cannot fully explain your reasoning behind a statement, and you're often relying on the reader's ability to notice important qualifiers and boldface and realize that you're saying THIS and not THAT.

In the case of this post, the most oft misunderstood quote was mine;

I added a different emphasis, one which will hopefully clarify the intent of a one sentence reponse to a previous poster. It is not that I only care for the opinions of others who have something I need, but that those who choose to judge me (whether based on my words or actions) deserve far less of my time and concern than those who refuse to judge me and listen based merely on the content of my message. In this sense, I hope you can see how I view judging someone based on any attribute of the conversation other than the content as "close-minded." The qualification that I would continue to tolerate or listen to someone so close-minded does not entail selfishness, only a realistic tempering of a philosophical concept. Because we are all individuals who rely on other individuals to supply us with things, we must sometimes deal with people who we do not appreciate on an intellectual case. This was in response to Cyn and Ustwo's comments that I would not, understandly, use swear words when in a job interview. This is true -- even if I did not like the interviewer, for whatever reason, I'd abstain from using language I knew would be offensive.

Now -- on to the OP. The reason I acted vehemently to the original post is that it implies a certain level of censorship, a political concept which I hope to only briefly touch on.

The original post (and quite a few of the replies) implied their own unique disparaging of someone who would use curse words, including stupidity and a lack of class. This seems foolish to me, and I replied with the foolishness in mind. I'm an active member of the EFF and other organizations who oppose censorship in all forms, and it is a very important "principle" to my life at large. I agree with analog in saying that

.. and I suspect that no one here disagrees with this concept. However, I feel a concept that few understand is that offense is a choice. Whether your offense is under my control or not, it is still a choice that you make when feeling "offended" by someone's manner or language. This is a lesson that I learned a very young age, and I assumed that many others had learned the same. When a bully egged me on repeatedly with "you're a faggot you're a faggot you're a faggot" every time I responded with "no I'm not" or "shut up," it encouraged the bully to continue the behavior. By chosing to be offended to his language and react, I only gave him a greater resolve with which to torment me. When I failed to be offended or even react, the bullying soon stopped (or moved to a different point of entry). I'm not justifying swearing, only hoping to encourage the idea that the less you get offended at the better.

On my actual use of "cuss" words, it is often quite slim. Becuase I'm at work half of the day and at University in class the rest of the day, my general demeanor is quite formal. When I was demoing a new version of our product to hundreds of customers and about 50 of my coworkers, I certainly was very aware of my language -- not only the avoidance of "offensive" terminology, but also language that could paint our product in any negative light.

My defense of the "right" to swear is not because I inherently desire it, but because I believe everyone should have the right to say what they want, and reap the consequences of it thusly. We do NOT, however, have the right to avoid offense. People will say offensive things all of the time, and I believe it is a precept of a strong nation that we allow dissenting and inappropriate beliefs to continue. Any attempt to censor others is a de facto admission that we do not support ideals other than our own. Even the message that women should be more "independent" and avoid the Paris Hilton-esque model is an example of censorship. For people LIKE Paris Hilton and people who DO want to be dependent, it is a way of life. To tell them that this is wrong is censoring their voice and ability to live their life in a way they see fit. Yes liberal hippy bullshit on my part, so I'm sorry to any conservative person who made it this far.

Additionally, I think the notion by many posters in this thread that you should place your own comfort below that of others is a dangerous notion, and only setting yourself for abuse. Keeping your comfort at the same level as others is far more healthy, as it allows you to keep a thin level of tolerance -- I will be kind and avoid certain things to keep you happy, but I will not lose part of my critical being in order to KEEP you happy. Too often I hear abused women say that they let it happen because they just wanted HIM to be happy. This comes about by an attitude that says we should set ourselves below others, and serve the greater good before ourself. I'm not saying that we should NOT serve the greater good, but we should be PART of the greater good in that consideration.

Just as many of you value the ability to not say certain things when you know they will be offensive, I ALSO value the ability to not be offended when certain things are said. I think it is a mark of a strong morality and strong control of your emotions when you can recognize something offensive and chose not to let it bother you. Far too many people will take somsething said in a light-hearted manner and take it so personally that they'd demonize the other person. It's the "political correctness" movement that I'm referring to; avoiding certain phrases and mannerisms is certainly acceptable, but asking others to is an intellectual censorship that I'm never going to be comfortable condoning, no matter my age. And that brings me to my final point:

The use of age-specific insults: In most boards that I frequented in my younger years, I avoided disclosing my age for fear that people whould begin to implicitly judge me based on my age, again rather than the content of my message. I never saw a case where I was able to disclose my age and not be the brunt of age-related insults like sonny or my young JinnKai -- until I came to TFP. I felt comfortable disclosing my admittedly young age because I felt like I wouldn't be judged by it, but by my ability to defend my position honorably. This thread has made me really reconsider my disclosure of my age; however, it appears that those who would use it to attack me have already done so, and I hope to see it cease in the future. Beyond that, I'm going to chose not to be offended by the personal attacks in this thread, on both the belief expressed in this post and also because they were partially due to my all-too-brief responses.

So there you have it. I either write a fuckishly long response that no one will take the time to read, or I write an entirely too short message that everyone will take the opportunity to attack me on, even if their vehemence is only the result of a misinterpretation on their part.

Okay, then.
1. I read the whole damned thing. "Fuckishly long response" is an apt description.

2. I also found it interesting that people concentrated on your age as the "must be it" reason they disagreed with you. I will note that my ideas and belief systems and manner of behaving certainly have changed with time - I am still myself, but I pay more attention to the situational appropriateness now than I ever did a few years ago. I attribute that to social/workplace education more than concerns about PC stuff.

3. I do agree that you choose how you react to a situation. And that people should be able to express themselves as they see fit. However:

4. I see no reason why I must purposely say/do things that I know will be upsetting to the others I am currently in contact with. Unless, of course, that's my actual purpose (to upset the others). It's simply a mode of contact, a choice to let things ride smoothly. As much as I don't care what the other people think, neither do I care to deal with their upsetness at my honesty/language. I can be solid in my beliefs and how I wish to interact with the world without needing to impose those beliefs/actions on other people.

It's also a simple matter of the golden rule: Treat others as you would wish to be treated. In my case, that's with respect.

I'm just going to go back to CM's original post. No, I do not curse. Though I have found myself slipping up a few times in recent years - hubby brought back some doozies from Korea - but we both work pretty hard to curb our tongues. I know my children have been (and will be) exposed to insulting, offensive language. I've tried my very best to make certain my kids don't spout the knowledge of cursewords at others. Of course they hear it, but not from their parents. They hear it everywhere, but the question is how to make them understand that they don't have to follow the crowd? They don't _have_ to say vulgar things just because they know how. At a local McD's there were three teenaged girls (14 or 15 at best, I'd guess) who were liberally dropping f-bombs everywhere. And loudly, too. In a play place. Mojodragon finally walked over and politely asked them if they could please curb the language around the little kids and he was applauded by four or five tables worth of parents. The girls didn't take this well and let loose another string of verbiage. Now should all of the parents present have picked up their kids and left? Some of the little ones there were too young to explain things to, so it really was the parents offense that was the issue. Most parents don't want their toddlers and preschoolers getting in trouble at daycare or preschool with potty mouth. The manager finally came in and asked the girls, politely, to leave. They protested that they were paying customers and shouldn't be required to leave. He threatened them with calling the police if they continued to disrupt our family play day and they finally stormed off - tossing a shake at the glass on the way past. I guess that's how I see cursing and curse words in general - immature attempts at attention getting. And I don't think it's age related so much as how you're raised. I'm not exactly old, and I do not curse. Nor does it offend me unless there are children involved. And then it's more of a worry about the offense of others - I don't want _my_ kids spewing their angry words around teachers, friends, or at church...

A) I agree that people should be able to express themselves.

B) Just because people don't agree with your position does not mean they don't understand you. It is a possibility that they both completely understand and disagree with you.

C) Being willing to voluntarily place your own comfort below that of others is not a weakness, but a strength (yes, my own opinion. What else could it possibly be?). I witness this perception of "placing other people's comfort before my own is a weakness" in more than one of your posts. I'm sure there is a reason for it, and it appears to color many of your posted views.
Disclaimer: Of *course* there is a reasonable limit for placing others before yourself, as there is in everything. The Key is finding a working balance.

D) Being concise is a vital element of good writing. :thumbsup:

The misunderstanding I was referring to was the rampant selection and raping of one thing I said, not disagreement with my position in general.

You're right. I never place anyone before myself. This is my life, and I only get one. If I can do something for another person, then by all means I will. But if it means placing something I view as important below what they view as important -- I'll win.

Why? I used to be this way, and I cannot fathom it being a strength. Unless of course we're talking about silly things like letting someone else go first in line or doing something for someone when you're very busy -- they're issues of convenience rather than comfort, to me.

Mmmm, it's something I'm still learning, heh. I seem to be learning it from the other side, setting boundaries and not letting others control my *destiny*, yet without running roughshod over them.

But I still do think one has to be strong to be gentle, or humble, you know? That compromise thing.
It's a mystery, and I'm not being sarcastic.
AND...I still like your smile! :icare:

i won't be offended when you swear in front of my kids if you won't be offended when my fist knocks your front teeth out. Deal?

Man that's witty

I liked this aspect of the thread. Does language use relate to intelligence? I tend to agree with Shanifaye. When I hear someone speak "inappropriately" in a given social context, I tend to think that they aren't very socially adept, that they don't understand the social nuances of the context. It is in that sense that I believe intelligence and language use are related.

(Of course, I'm speaking in a very general sense, not about JinnKai or any individual. There are likely very bright people that use "inappropriate" language in social contexts. Still, I think that there is a relationship between intelligence and language use).

This is not acceptable behaviour on the TFP. This is your first and final warning. Either this stops now or you will both get a vacation from the board.

Dark humour and sarcasm don't always work as you intend and given the way this thread has been verging on flames, it isn't welcome.

Interesting to see just how this ties right into the very topic even without curse words.

I'd take the same position, but I've seen far too many exceptions. Does being mute automatically make you not intelligent? You can't speak "appropriately" or even "inappropriately" for that matter. What about Bill Gates? He supposedly has Asperger's Syndrome -- a dehabilitating social "disorder," but I'd be hard pressed to call him stupid too, considering his amassed wealth. Stephan Hawkings? The brilliant quadrapelegic behind string theory? His social "ability" is about the level of a 6 year old. With so many exceptions to this rule, wouldn't it be safer to consider intelligence based on content rather than execution?

I don't mind a cuss word here and there, but when people start saying GD or MFer in regular sentence for no reason, I do find it disrespectful. Someone I know will say GDit because he accidently put 5 cents too much in the drink machine. Uhh...did you really need to Damn Christian's God because you put 5 cents too much in the machine?

I'm a self-admitting cussword user, but I don't use the "big ones" because they <I>are disrespectful</I> to most people. You can argue all you want about how people shouldn't judge others based on how they speak, but in actuality, you should. You're cussing in front of me without caring if it bothers me, therefore you ARE being disrespectful regardless of opinion or image.

Not being able to speak or being disabled is a bit different than cussing in public. When someone overcurses in public, it's a sign that they don't know how society views the word, or even worse, they don't care.

What's the option for someone who disagrees with the societal norms, then? It sounds like you're saying those who against society's "rules" are not intelligent. I think we can find just as many exceptions to the rule, too. I'm not equating simplistic speech like "fuck" with important social discourse like "I have a dream.." but rather saying that some social norms are ridiculous. If we continue to put "swear words" on a pedestal, they retain their ability to offend. Through common use, however, they lose potency. I don't claim to know how "hippy" became so much less disparaging than it used to be, but I'm vesting my bets on people claiming it and calling THEMSELVES hippies. If they're calling themselves it, there's no sense calling them dirty hippies -- it's not offensive. The famous "N" word is following this same path. By adopting a similar word and identifying each other it through youth culture, they lessened the "zing" force of the originally offensive word. Another example stands in the offensive "F" word for homosexuals -- it makes no sense to call someone that if they're calling themselves it.. they'll reply with .."Yea, so what?" and your hoped offense falls dreadfully short.

In my effort to ignore and choose NOT to be offended by swear words, I believe I invalidate their usage. If you call me a "motherfucker" and I smile at you, you're likely not going to call me it in the future, because you know it won't offend me. By this manner, words like motherfucker will phase out of speech for new words that society deems offensive.

In essense, offensive words only go away when they become so common that they're not offensive.

At least that's how I see it.. ?

I would never suggest that social aptitude and general intelligence are perfectly correlated. Few psychological variables are. There will always be individual differences. However, I do think that there is a significant relationship between social aptitude and intelligence. (Even accounting for individual cases like Stephen Hawkings or conditions like Asperger's Syndrome).

In retrospect, I realized my connection between Joey Bob who says mothafucka every sentence and someone working for social change was pretty weak, but I thought of an apt example. Apt, depending on your opinion of the man, I suppose.

Everytime I think about this issue of censorship of speech, Eminem comes to mind. So many groups were vocal in their opposition to many of his songs; he's mysogonistic, sexist, racist, advocates murder, etc, etc. Howeer, I was always left with the feeling that these critics hadn't truly listening to his lyrics. Because hidden within the meaning of his rhymes was a very powerful message, one directly opposed to the things he was being accused of. He talks about loving his wife and mother, of hating the violence that he seems in the hip-hop subculture, the stupid racism that almost stopped him from entering the music industry at all, and the trials and tribulations that lead to it all. One could argue that he might've passed the message without his overtly offensive language, but I personally believe that it highlighted for the critics exactly how hypocritical they were.

Again, an instance where content is more important than delivery.

You could call them an idiot or ignore them becuase of their percieved lack of intelligence or social skills, but what if they're in a position to help you? What if the foul-mouthed sailor happens to see you get mugged, chases down the mugger, and presents him to authorities? That judgement wouldn't feel all too fair, would it? I think there's a lot of untapped potential you miss in people if you summarily dismiss them because they say "fuck" all-too-often.

EDIT: Derwood -- in response to earlier: I apologize if I offended you by my comment, but it was an off-the-cuff reponse of my own to the feeling that you were threatening physical violence to me or anyone who would use swear words. I could have, however, said it in a much more progressive (rather than regressive) way; sorry.

If that were to become the case, what would you do when you wanted to offend? Profanity serves a limited but distinct purpose, and you are looking to take that purpose away.

Having offensive words is part of the joy of language.

Context is everything.

Those who fail to grasp this, fail to grasp the power and subtlety of language.

and offensive words evolve and change. something will always replace the evaporating offending word. it always does.

Then another word will simply replace it.

Yeah! Like...Freedom Fries! :rolleyes:

My post was not directed at anyone in particular. My point was that you can make the choice to use foul language any time you want, but you must understand that there can/will be consequences to that choice in certain situations. I was in no way physically threatening another member of this forum and frankly find it ridiculous that anyone would interpret my post in that way.

Damnit!! I wanted in on the fight!!

Ok, anyway, the whole context thing strikes me a bit funny sometimes. People say that curse words are bad because of how they are used. So.. if I call you a Chair and I'm pissed off.. I guess that becomes a curse word.

:shrug:

Find it ridiculous if you please, but things can be hard to interpret on the internet. We choose to play it safe, and threatening people is a no-no. That's just the way we play the game here.

No. Sorry. That would be a non-sequitor.

In order for it to become a curse word many more people than yourself would have to start using it as a "dirty word".

ok ok.. you got me.

I've just always failed to see how a word is different than another. I mean really.. who decided certain words were worse than others??

what difference does it make?

if a word is considered bad, or politically incorrect, then common sense says don't use it in polite society... What purpose does it serve to intentionally try to offend people?

I like to ask the Wiki in cases like this. There's some good history there.

Profanity - Wikipedia

It always makes a difference. I'm not going to not say something just because some pompous person decided they didn't like certain words. I also never set out to intentionally offend people. Like I said in my first post, if I know someone doesn't like it I usually avoid saying those things just to avoid the issue. Other times if they are spouting what they believe yada yada then I will naturally start spouting what I believe.

Language is a wonderful and perplexing tool. The individual words we use carry meanings. We give them meaning so that we can be understood. We have curse words that carry a specific meaning. Using words out of context can be confusing. Resulting in your message not being understood.

For example, if I want a drink and approach someone and say, "Can I have a chair please?" You are going to go thirsty.

Furthermore, if I want a drink and approach someone and say, "Hey fuckface, get me something to drink!" I will likely offend the person being addressed. Why? Because we have agreed that the meaning of "fuckface" is an offensive insult.

Wait! There is more. Assuming the person being addressed does not know you, they *will* judge you based on the language you choose to use and the manner in which you use it. Calling someone fuckface is not going to engender positive responses.


Ultimately, the reason some words are "worse" than other is because of usage. We agree that they are offensive words (just as we agree that a chair is not a glass of water). You, as the user of the words, do not have a choice in how your words will be interpreted.

If you decide that "fuck" is no longer going to be an offensive word, while the rest of the population continues to see it as such... be prepared to be misunderstood.

I feel like I just watched an infomercial. :p

So being that most curse words are used to belittle others, then if I'm talking to someone else and saying, "yeah that Jim is a fuckface." then people standing near me should already understand the meaning behind that. There would be no need to ask me not to use that word since the meaning is directed at Jim and not them. I cannot put any blame on myself to how words I use are being interpreted by others. What am I supposed to do? "Ma'am, I'm about to call my friend Jim a fuckface, is it ok if I call him that?"

I have a filthy mouth. But I moderate my speech without even thinking about it according to the environment, the people I am around, etc. And I will admit that I curse around my kids, and my older children also curse. But I was raised in a home where the curse words were bandied around freely and with great joy. We don't have a problem with it. It's not that we are trashy, ill-bred or disrespectful, in fact both of my parents are educated successful people, who just happen to cuss alot. It's a wonderful form of expression when combined with an overall healthy and vibrant vocabulary. But I do believe there are appropriate times to moderate speech for the sake of respect for others. And like I said, in my family, that just comes naturally.

* "I am actually pro-cursing. I think it's good. I think we should teach kids to curse, so they don't use drugs. It doesn't rot your brain. It doesn't get you pregnant. It doesn't kill you, like tobacco." --Paul Begala

Source: CNN Crossfire, December 8, 2003

I love this sentence! I'll be thinking about it for the rest of the day--and smiling, damnit! :D

Awwww, fuck....thanks. ;)

One of my great heroes, comedian Sid Caesar, once said that cursing is mostly for people who lack the intelligence/skill to find a better word. Since I have taught school for 20 years, I've found that he's right in my case. Whenever I'm in front of students, no matter what their age, I am always able to think fast enough to come up with non-profane language. My profanity usually comes out only when I am alone and it doesn't matter.

I would say that everyone has a right to curse and use words that they deem appropriate in appropriate situations. Everyone who is old enough to quote and value this perceived right, should also be old enough to understand that you CANNOT (in good conscience) use your rights - to trample someone elses rights. If your cursing can be heard by my mother (or my kids, etc), I know that it will offend them. That is using your right to curse without consideration for the consequences and that is disrespectful and rude.

No one that I have read in this thread was saying that cursing is just plain wrong, nor were thay saying that it makes you less of a person. Most of what I read were posts explaining that there are certainly situations that require restraint for the common good.

Failing to acknowledge someone else' rights - just so you can exercise your own rights - is a pretty one-side viewpoint for life. And when I use the word 'you' I don't mean any particular person; I mean anyone who is wearing the shoe that I am describing.

If you want to be respected, be respectful. :thumbsup:

I take exception to this as a rule, although I certainly understand where you're coming from. A person must learn to speak properly and have a vibrant vocabulary in order to really cuss with style. But cursing, in and of itself, is not indicative of a lack of intelligence. IMO, and in my observation.

This thread seems like it's JinnKai's campaign for free expression vs. everybody else's campaign for civility and politeness. It reminds of when Noam Chomsky sided with a French author who claimed the holocaust didn't happen, and the offending book was subsequently removed from press. Chomsky wasn't defending the author's ideals - on the contrary, Chomsky believes very much in the events of the holocaust - but people quickly ran stories of him being a neo-Nazi, anti-Semetic etc. They didn't understand that he was simply defending the man's right to freedom of speech, regardless of the content of the message.

At what point is one freedom sacrificed for another? It's difficult to say that one is more fundamental than the other, especially when considering something as seemingly fickle as mono-syllabic words. It's a very tricky debate and I'm sure it will never be satisfyingly resolved.

I have to admit, I cursed more in my younger days. I knew more words than my friends then. Today I take satisfaction in knowing words they don't, but have the same meaning. You swear - you go down. Don't swear, don't go down.

For part of my childhood - I went to a school were we said f*** in pretty much every sentence.

So that's no big deal to me. I work in white collar-environments - where I don't generally swear because I know it bothers my collegues. Usually I'll swear if I'm particularly surprised by a nasty technical issue and I haven't caught myself in time. I also swear when I'm in physical pain, after hitting my head or whatever.

God and jesus aren't used here in my experience, teenager drama queens and watchers of US soaps. We generally say f***, p***, s***, and c***. If we intend to be negative about somebody we really have to mix-em up together and combine with other verbs.

Yeah, I've heard that, and I've also seen a few people on TFP say this as well. I think it's just not correct. We use cusswords because we know the reaction they will get from people and to give a sense of importance to a situation. Using a cussword doesn't portray a lack of intelligence or skill to find a better term unless the person doesn't know when to stop or uses them recreationally in public without caring what others think.

Say you're in a hurry and you stub your toe. "Ow, gee, that smarts!" just doesn't portray the same importance as "that hurt like hell." When your 16 year old daughter comes in at 3 AM drunk, "what were you doing?" doesn't portray the seriousness of "what the F were you doing?"

Cusswords may be stupid in theory, but our society uses them and <I>understands them</I> as a part of the human language in relation to the power and importance of a situation. Saying that the words are a guideline for a lack of intelligence is just silly and somewhat rude.