wear your seatbelt
 

I knew a guy (20 years old, my boss's kid) who didn't ever wear a seatbelt. He was young and felt too cool or too invincible, or too something to wear it.

He died last night in a car accident.

He's fucking dead, ladies and gentlemen. He is not going to play poker tonight. He is not going to get laid this weekend. He is not going to surf porn, or hug his dad or watch TV, or go to work, or go to class, or take a shower... nothing. He is dead.

At least he'll never have to listen to people bitching at him to wear his seatbelt.

My wife was saved by a seatbelt. My Mom was saved by a seatbelt. I was saved by a seatbelt.

WEAR

YOUR

FUCKING

SEATBELT

Always a good time for a reminder that airbags without seatbelt = worse injury. The airbags are designed to work with your seatbelt. If you're not wearing one, you slam into the bag as its inflating. They're important enough that Honda (possibly others) will replace worn or broken seatbelts for the life of the car, free.

I never wear a seatbelt. I hate them, but then I believe that if you're supposed to die, you're going to die no matter what precautions you take.

I've had friends die from not wearing a seatbealt, I've had friends saved because they didn't wear a seatbelt. If it's time.. it's time.

That being said, I'm sorry to hear about the kids death. I lost a good buddy last week to a car wreck. He was wearing his seatbelt.

That's quite the opinion. I guess it's your life, your choice. But jeez, what a wasteful opinion... and then offering the anecdotal evidence that wearing your seatbelt doesn't save lives. Of course some wrecks nullify seatbelts. It's the intermediate accidents where the seatbelt saves the head injury, as well as your body from flying out of the car.

If it's a choice over doing something I "hate" and keeping on living, I'll choose life.

I'm terribly sorry for your loss.
and yes. Wear the fucking seatbelt guys. It's not like.."ahh wtf it bothers me, its a short trip, I'll wear it next time." An accident can be a one time thing only, so there might not be a next time. And it can happen any day. Also, keep in mind your death does not only concern you...it can tear families apart.
Please listen to clavus, because you wouldn't like seeing your own daughter/son/mother/father or anyone your close to with his face smashed and ripped through a windshield. All of those who don't wear them should google some car accident pictures, and picture your loved ones in those situations.
Please wear your seatbelt.

Christ, why do people not wear them? I can't even drive around without one now, I feel oddly naked not wearing it.

Also, how does someone get saved by not wearing a seatbelt?

I never said that seatbelts don't save lives. Of course they do. That's been proven, but yeah it is my life and my "wasteful" opinion not to wear one. I love the flying out of the car reference. Especially since a girlfriend of mine was told her life was saved because she was thrown out of the car. Look, here's the deal, if you're gonna die, you're gonna die. I choose not to wear one and that's me, if you feel safe wearing one by all means wear one, I'm not going to say you're stupid or wrong. To each his own.

haha more anecdotes... lovely

note I never called you stupid OR wrong.

Yep, it's your life... Maybe if you're ever sitting in a car dying ([generic deity] forbid) you'll flash back to this thread and think about your choices.

I guess it being a law doesnt make any difference to you either?

That is the ONLY good part of living in NH... NO mandatory seat belt laws for adults :D
(Live free or die motto is so fitting...)

actually, I doubt I'll think about it. Maybe I will, maybe I won't.


Shani: nope, that doesn't affect my choice either. I'll pay the fine if need be.

It's always funny watching someone be so irresponsible with their choices... Makes me wonder what everyday stuff I do that other people look at and shake their head thinking I'm an irresponsible little kid.

Yes, it's law in Canada as well, click it or ticket.

That's the thing. Most people do something that someone else is going to consider being irresponsible. This just happens to be mine. I'm not saying any of this to advocate not wearing one, it's just my thought on the subject. I won't apologize for it. If I get in a car with someone and they ask me to put my seat belt on, I'll usually comply with their request because they are the ones driving and it's their car.


I've often said that you should be able to sign a waiver and pay slightly higher insurance/taxes whatever if you choose not to wear one. Of course this will never happen, because yes they do save more lives than are lost by not wearing one. I'm not avoiding that fact. I just don't want people to come in here and think I'm saying they are stupid or wrong. Everyone gains their opinions and belief structure through experiences in their lives. Yeah, I put up some anecdotes or whatever, but those were the experiences in my life that help me make the decision that I don't want to wear one. People can blast me all they want, but in the end it is still my choice, and in the end the consequences are still mine alone.

Many times, laws that only effect the person who chooses whether or no to heed are ignored in the name of personal freedom. Smoking marijuana is likely the best example of this line of thinking.

If people want to be careless with their lives, that's fine with me, it's their choice. I do think, however, that people who don't wear a seatbelt should get an automatic DNR- Do Not Resuscitate. This way, the state doesn't have to pay to keep their mangled, comatose bodies alive in an Intensive Care Unit, we can go ahead and let their body expire on the street, how they wanted it. Because that's the only way their decision impacts others- the machinery used to keep them alive after being chewed up in an accident.

Very sorry to hear about that, clavus.

But haven't you ever considered that the anecdotes you based your choice on were statistically improbable compared to the high probability of lives saved by seatbelts?

I'd actually be interested in hearing your whole rationale for not wearing a seatbelt. I hope it's not simply for the reasons listed so far, because it just seems like you're basing your choice on some bum info...

It's guccliver's choice. He knows the score.

Seatbelts save lives. I don't think anyone will really dispute that fact. There are rare incidents where the seatbelt might put the wearer in more danger, but those are going to be very few and far between compared to the average auto accident.

If you don't want to wear your seatbelt, that's fine with me. I don't care since you're not going to be in my car. If we're in an accident, and you end up dead, your portion of the contributory negligence is going to be higher than otherwise since you failed to take what is considered a basic step to avoid injury.

It seems to me that there are much more thrilling ways to live dangerously. If this is a way to pick up chicks, I'm going to be severely disapointed.

I'd be agreeable to this.


Ace: I'm sorry, I fail to see how people that were very close to me dying, or not dying is bum info. Sure I know the stats and I understand the risks yada yada yada, but to say that my experiences are bum info is pretty silly. Ever since I was young, I've always said that when it's your time to go, it's your time to go. I guess I've always had a pretty callous view towards death. If it happens, it happens. Now, without going off on a hijack trail, I will say that yes I do feel sad when people close to me die. That's natural.. but I don't sit there and wonder why they had to die or why it couldn't have been me. I just accept it happend and remember them as they were.

So, basically my rationale is pretty silly; but ya know, I don't care. If I change my mind later on in life, I'll let you know.

Meh, just trying to see the method behind the madness

it's your life.

You, as is known by your own admissions, prefer to tempt death whenever possible. Whether you really don't care to live as long as you can or you have a death wish, I don't know. But rehabilitations centers are full of like-thinking young males that figure they're either gonna bite it whenever or they're too invincible for anything to happen when risk is taken. But dying when it was preventable is the single most stupid way to go. Spending the rest of your days with your eyes rolling in your head while lying in a bed or rolling in a wheelchair is a stupid way to spend your life when it was preventable.
Chance is just that. It can go for you or against you. But playing the odds against yourself, betting that you WILL lose? I'm there NOW and feel stupid for it-adding a nicotine habit to my odds. I can't imagine making the odds that much more against myself.
A woman I worked with in the school system had a 24 year old son. Two weeks before Christmas, her brother, living in Colombia, died and the son, getting word, was heading home to pack for the flight. He didn't make it. It was raining slightly, he was going way too fast on my small street, missed the curve and hit a hydrant. He was thrown out of the car and the car rolled onto him. My friend had to bury her son the day before she was to head home to bury her brother.
For every anecdote about why you wouldn't buckle up, I can give you one or two why you should. But, like you said, law or no law, it's your choice. Let's hope avoiding a fine isn't done the ultimate way.....$15,000 vs. a couple hundred?

By no means do I think I'm invincible. Seriously though, if someone dies, was it not their time to die?? Can someone die and it not supposed to happen? I don't think so. You see cars that look like they came out of a sardine can and the people lived, you see cars with a small dent and the people died. It's just how the cookie crumbles. Is it fair? Probably not, but fairness doesn't really matter when it comes to death. Will I be in an institution with my eyes rolled back in my head? Everyone close to me knows DNR.

Sure you can give me the anecdotes that contradict mine. I've heard them. I understand them. I know I'm making a choice that isn't with the odds. It's just me.

I'm failing to see the $15,000 thing.

Funeral costs, babe....

oh, well yeah those are covered.

I believe the fundamental error in your thinking is that you hypothesize any possible time of death is that person's "time". Think of this: My walk to the grocery store takes me along a busy street (Hastings) as it enters a busy highway. If I chose suddenly to jump out into traffic and be struck by a bus, it doesn't change the fact that my time could have kept going if I hadn't chosen to jump out into traffic. There are infinite possibilities for death every day, and the likelihood of those events are independent of eachother. So by you not choosing to wear your seatbelt, simply deny yourself further life, possibly ended by some other randomly occurring death. Why not simply take measures to enhance life... are you truly that eager to meet your death?

You're asking, what rational person WOULD jump out into traffic on a whim and end their life? I point you to the Stoics of the ancient Roman empire who held suicide as man's highest measure of freedom of choice. Certainly there are still people around today who hold this. For instance, what was the motivation behind Suicide Club. Now as you proposed earlier, we aren't discounting statistically improbable elements in our hypothesis. If you're allowed to have your life experience, I'm allowed to have past life experience.

Just an alternate viewpoint.

[edit]

God I got a good chuckle about remembering the time I watched Suicide Club... what a fantastically ridiculous movie. It made no sense what so ever.

Hrm I'll have to watch that sometime. I've always kinda viewed suicide as a beautiful thing. No I wouldn't do it, and I do find it silly in some instances, but I do think it's controlling you're own life. Is it weak?? Well I guess that depends on the person. I've always been one to test my luck but I've never viewed seatbelts as pressing my luck. I do however still view time valid in the instance of suicide. That person was supposed to die at that point. It doesn't matter how it was done. Car wreck, overdose, serial killer, suicide. Death is death. When it happens.. it's supposed to happen.

Now, before you tear apart my rationale, I completely see your alternative viewpoint. I understand where and what you are trying to say. Again, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As far as enchancing life, I think I enchance my own life as I see fit. Everyone has a different viewpoint on enchancing life. Some people view a life of solidarity in a brazilian jungle as a life enchancement. I do not.

I just don't think anyone can every truly safeguard themselves to the point that they are less likely to die. A person can eat healthy, work out, wear seatbelts, live in a bubble, whatever, but they are still gonna die when it's their turn. Take your sig for instance, "The only sure thing in life is death." That is the absolute truth. The question of time is the only matter involved in death that is unknown. That unknown is what makes me come to the conclusion of "when it's time, it's time."

:shrug:

Some of these beliefs and opinions though can come from the examples set by others. We (my family) used to never wear seat belts. My wife and I decided once that the children would be far safer though bucked up. And of course we could not expect them to do so unless we practiced what we preached. Since we have started using seat belts it has become such a habit that I find myself reaching for one when I get in a golf cart. I suspect that in the long run if we are ever in a car accident we will fair better with them than without them.

No, they affect everyone around you. Seriously, I wouldn't want to be one of your relatives or friends, because you don't care how much pain you could cause them to have.

I think I'm the only one of my group of friends who always wears a seatbelt. It seems every time I get into one of their cars, they're telling me that I don't need it because they "drive safe enough"...

Whatever. It's habit for me now.

Sorry to hear about that, clavus!

i'm sorry to hear of that Clavus and sorry for his loved ones for his loss.

And... i wear mine. And my car doesn't move until everyone in it has theirs on.

Thanks for the reminder.

sweetpea

I tend to "forget" to put mine on when I get into the car and drive down the road. The weird thing is that I'll always remember to put it on when I'm getting onto a freeway. Maybe I subconsciously think that I won't get into a head-on on a little suburban road.

My company car's a little Opel (Vauxhall) Corsa 2-door. I find myself NOT wearing the seatbelt in that car more often, merely because it's uncomfortable (it sits really high up - almost on my neck - and isn't height-adjustable) and a bit more restricting than the one on my own car. Not a very good reason, I know.

Sorry for your loss, Clavus.

First: I wear my seatbelt. It's so automatic I don't even think about it anymore.

Second: I get your idea, guccilvr, about when it's your time to die, it's your time to die. I don't quite understand why you wouldn't want to mitigate your chances of dying early, but that's your choice.

Third: Guccilvr, I liked that you said you'll buckle up when asked to in someone else's car. However, I would hope for other passenger's sake that you would do it even when not asked to - at least if you're in the back seat. If you're in the back seat and you're not wearing your seatbelt and you get in a collision, your body becomes a weapon. You can do some serious damage if you fly into the back of the seat of the person in front of you.

I don't want to sound preachy, it's just something to consider.

-Tamerlain

Well, what you're saying (guccilvr) sounds a lot like the belief in fate. That what happens was meant to happen.

So are you saying that, if a person is meant to die at a particular time, the seatbelt will never prevent this? Meaning, when death comes, the concept of Fate is such that your circumstances are irrelevent- death will have you, no matter how it claims you?

I've never been big on "fate", but I can see how a strong belief in fate could lead to this conclusion abotu seat belts not making any difference.

I still don't agree, but I can extract the argument based on that belief.

I'll bet that people who don't wear seatbelts also think they're above average drivers. I believe I'm an above average driver, myself.

Maybe I am but what I also consider is the thousands of completely fucking useless licensed drivers I have to share the road with.

Here's a realistic looking video of a head on collision, played in reverse:
http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/ca.../backwards.mpg


Here's a slightly amusing video from the 60's showing how to wear a seatbelt, simplified so that even a lady can understand:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/new...85_16x9_bb.asx

(might not work outside GB)

Thats when you tell them its not THEIR driving you're worried about, its everyone elses!!

Maybe its just me, but with everything guccilvr has said, its all about death...what about when you dont die but you become an invalid in someway (note I didnt say vegetable cause you already addressed the DNR thing) but the ton of money/time it would take to take care of you perpetually because the wreck didnt kill you, but maimed you for life? People keep equating no seatbelt with death.....death is the easy way out...how many people out there have to spend the rest of their lives dependant on someone else for their (IMO) stupid and selfish decision?

I feel naked without a seatbelt too. It it holds me in place and if I did have to hit the brakes or jerk the wheel to avoid something I wouldn't be tossed around and end up losing control of the vehicle. Although it is mainly a life saving device, It's also a wreck prevention device.

I don't even think the ambulance should attend the scene. Just the tow truck and street sweepers to clean up the mess afterwards, then send the bill to the dead guy's estate.

That law isn't as much about saving lives as it is about checking papers and searching cars. With that being said I always wear one because usually you are better off wearing it. However, it definetly should not be a law and I respect someone's choice to not wear one.

I guess its just me, but I dont support the example it would set for my daughter by not doing it. Its telling her that its ok to ignore a law just because she might think its stupid.

Nor have I. The fate argument gives you the excuse to never do anything hard. "Well I got a 3 on the SAT's. . It was fate, not the fact that I never prepped for it and got high half an hour before the test."

Same with the seatbelt argument IMO. If you tempt "fate" by not wearing your seatbelt then "fate" might just decide to call your bluff early.

I always wear a seatbelt, and it has saved me from not death but at least broken limbs and/or smashed-up face. It's not death I worry about - because when you're dead you're dead - but injuries. I hate being injured, I hate pain, and wearing a seatbelt definitely minimises the crushing smashing being thrown around like a ragdoll bit. So seatbelt on for me.
(On a sidenote: my mom has FINALLY replaced her old rustbucket deathtrap of a car with a modern safe car! Now if she can only learn to change the channel on the radio without turning on the windshield wipers, I'll feel much better about her driving around.)

And to those who don't like to wear a seatbelt when they're 8 month's pregnant because it's a little uncomfortable. - Without a seatbelt my daughter and I would not be here today.

I've been saved by a seatbelt on more than one occaision. One of those time - if I had not been wearing one I'd have had more than a little bump on my head. I would have (for certain) gone through the windshield and down into a ravine. Instead the car stopped, I stopped and staired at the tops of tall pine trees below me thinking "I could be stuck on the top of one of them right now.

It's sad to know that someone who could have lived is gone because of a minor thing like that. My condolences to you.

I'm just weird. I guess the only 'fate' ideal I put stock into is the death one. I don't believe in any sort of higher power, yet when it comes to death.. I just see that as something different.


To people who say they've been saved by a seatbelt.. how do you really know you were saved by wearing it?? Could it be it just wasn't your turn to die??

How about this: If you were meant to die, then sure, you're gonna die.
It doesn't sound as though you feel the same way about becoming disabled though.
So how about wearing your seatbelt to prevent the probability of preventable serious injury--you don't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be happy with someone spoon-feeding ya or wiping your butt/changing your colostomy bag, or having to have skin grafted from your ass to cover your face--no comment :P. *I* happen to have a friend who had to go through exactly that process. That's *my* experience.

As far as it being a law, I think it has more to do with the costs incurred by folks refusing to take basic preventions (and yes, wearing a seatbelt is a darn easy, basic prevention), and the state having to get involved with disability/care/etc. Similar to motorcyclists having to wear helmets (at least they have to in California).

Clavus, I am very sorry for your loss.

If I were ever in that state, I'd find a doctor that would help with an assisted suicide.

Eh, his wife and kids seemed to feel it was worthwhile. And he eventually recovered and went on to lead a full life, as far as I know. I've lost contact with him, over the years.

Seems like we value you more than you value you. :icare:

No one is "meant" to die. There's no such thing as the Grim Reaper. It just depends on if you want to die or not or how important/less important you see your life. Statistics show that wearing a seatbelts saves more lives than not wearing a seatbelt. Sure, you might get the shit-end of the stick, but STATISTICALLY wearing a seatbelt is better. Not wearing a seatbelt isn't acknowledging that if a death-scenario happened, it was your "time to die anyway." It's just not caring about your life or not believing a fatal crash could happen to you.

No one is meant to die. It just happens. If you want to fight it, wear your seatbelt. If you are apathetic to your living or don't think you could ever be in a fatal car accident, by all means, leave it off :)

I guess you're asking a theological question... which cannot be answered by anyone having a different viewpoint than yours.

Nobody can prove that it wasn't god's divine breath that saved you, or some abstract concept of "fate" that rolled the dice and decided it wasn't your time. That's a matter of belief, not fact.

Applying Ockham's Razor we can choose between "seatbelt prevented head from smashing into window, thus preventing death", or "seatbelt prevented person sitting in back seat from rocketing through the windshield, thus preventing death" or.... "divine fate chose that it wasn't my magical predestined time to go, thus preventing death"

I leave it up to rational people to choose what common sense tells us... But empirical evidence shows wearing a seatbelt saves lives... PREVENTS death

I just can't grasp ahold of the whole "meant to die" ideology. If you were "meant to die," then why didn't you die? Because there's no such thing as "meant to live or die." It was just an occurance. Where the crew on Ernest Shackleton's last attempted voyage to the pole "meant to die" or "meant to live?" I know a number of the died in the war shortly after. But many of them lived on to be quite old as well. If you were meant to die, is there a "Final Destination" situation occuring?

Wear your seatbelt. Emperically, as Ace of Spades said, it's better to. Chances are it will help you instead of hurt you.

If you don't wear it, it's like I mentioned before, you either don't care about your life, don't think it will happen to you, or doubt a seatbelt's capabilities (which have been proven to be life-saving moreso than live-threatening).

So, if there is no rhyme or reason to death, then why does it matter at all? Why do people fear death?? Why do people feel sorry when another person dies?? It just happens right?? What's the point in "fighting it" when it's just going to happen anyway? There's no point in doing anything in life because.. well you're just gonna die.

I've never thought I couldn't be in a fatal accident..

those are good questions. they are fighting against your argument though!

people fear death because they don't want to die. dying sucks. you aren't alive anymore. being alive is much better than being dead. Just because you fear death doesn't mean you are "meant" to die. It just means that whenever you do happen to die, it will be unpleasant, because you will not be alive any longer.


You feel sorry for others when they die because they are dead. They aren't alive anymore. You won't see them ever again. Ever. This has nothing to do with whether or not the person was "meant" to die. It just happened, and you will never see them again. That's why you feel sorry for them. They don't get to see you anymore (or anything anymore) and you don't get to see them anymore.

That's why you should wear your seatbelt. Statistically, if you want to continue living, wearing your seatbelt is the best option. You never know when something random will happen and a seatbelt will save your life. It may hurt you, but you go with the odds. The house always wins.

Basically what guccilvr's talking about, as I mentioned earlier, is the belief in Fate- that all events are predetermined. Even if he only applies fate to death, it still creates a solid enough argument, in my opinion- if you believe in predetermination and fate.

What most of you are doing is taking the notion of "your time to die" and insisting that there's no such thing- ignoring that, by definition, fate says exactly when you will die and exactly how it will be arranged. Of course, you don't know it ahead of time- but if you believe in fate, you are essentially giving up control over your mortality and acknowledging that when fate's predetermined plan happens upon you, that is when you will die.

This has nothing to do with being "meant" to die. That would imply intellligence in deisgn behind the predetermination, which would mean a deity- and that's not what he's saying.

I believe he is simply saying that everyone dies- and there is a plotted time and place for every death to occur. He's saying that everyone's death is already configured, and therefore any actions he takes to minimize his chances of death at any given time are fruitless- partly because no one can know when death comes, and partly because you will not be able to escape the time of your predetermined death, no matter what you do.

(I hope that's about right, gucc. lol)

Analog: yeah you hit it on the head. I suck at typing my thoughts out thanks for doing it for me :)



Redjake: I'm merely asking those questions to get some thought.. not to win an argument. I can't win an argument with death..no one can.

Also, take the questions how they really are. They simply mean that since death just happens (your words) there is no point in fearing death or mourning a loss.

So you increase your chances? Cheating death is a lot more exhilirating than having it...of course, I only cheated it....I believe in fate and the possibilty of 'no coincidence, no accident', but I certainly would do my best to decrease my chances at fate getting the upper hand.
If someone's playing in the street and know cars will be zooming down, they're tempting fate by increasing their chances of getting run over. If they're on the sidewalk doing the exact same thing, fate may slap them upside the head, but it's probably a lot less likely. I'll take the less likely any day. ;)

That was a good explanation Analog. I get what he is saying now.

However, guccilvr still implies that the ability to "cheat death" is possible, a la wearing a seatbelt. He said that there is no reason in wearing a seatbelt, because it was "your time to die" anyway. Well, if it was your time to die, and you can cheat that time, why not do it? Do you really want to die? I don't understand the logic of just "giving in" to death. Why would you ever just give in to dying?

If you believe in fate then it doesn't matter what you do. There is no such thing as "less likely". If it's supposed to happen it will happen no matter what you do or don't do.



You can't cheat it. If it's time to die, you're going to die. If you live then you weren't supposed to be dead.... yet.

I guess it just depends on if you believe death is predetermined or spontaneous/random. If you believe death is predetermined, I can see not wearing a seatbelt. If you don't believe in predetermination of death, buckle up.

As I stated before, arguing this with gucci is pointless because it's a theological question... based in belief and not in fact.

Either you believe that fate is going to kill you eventually and nothing will change that no matter what you do to prepare, or you don't, and you believe you have control over your actions. I happen to fall into the school of the latter, so I take measures to enhance my own chances of survival. OR, you fall into some other school of thought, obviously these two choices aren't all inclusive.

My opinion that guccilvr's belief in an all encompassing fate is misguided and he is hastening his own demise won't shake his belief that our attempts to prolong our own lives are equally as misguided.

It's like telling a Christian there is no heaven... pointless theological arguments.

yeah. I can't imagine living a lifestyle where your death is predetermined. that would seriously suck. to me, anyway. doesn't that kind of make you death's bitch? I mean, no matter what you do, when you die, it was "Death's" doing, not your's. eating McDonald's everyday for your entire life and dying of a heart attack at 40 wasn't your fault. it was death's fault! it was the plan the whole time!

The issue of free-will vs. determinism has been one that's been debated since the 3rd century BC. If it hasn't been resolved by now, I think you can basically chalk it up to "difference of opinion"

It's a sure difference of opinion, like wearing your seatbelt or not, but I can sure as hell tell anyone on this Earth that I, and ONLY I, am in control of my life. I am because I am. I choose to type this post to a thread. Not someone/thing else. I'm sure the higher deity/phenomena is making me question whether or not he/she exists too. Right this very second. You sure are pulling a fast one on me! Making me type all of this up! Making me question you! Because a deity enjoys being questioned on their existance.

If I were to ever figure out, in this life or the next or wherever it may be, that I wasn't in control of my life, I would want a rematch.

you can quantify/qualify the effects of wearing a seatbelt vs. not wearing a seatbelt. It allows us to make empirical assumptions based on given data as to whether or not it is safer to wear a seatbelt. Whether people choose to accept this or not is an issue of common sense, but it is also an issue of theology. Some people are inherantly mistrustful of science and the scientific method, and prefer theological explanations as to how they go about their day-to-day lives and to explain phenomena they experience.

You cannot quantify/qualify the issue of free will vs. determinism simply because you cannot test it. ANY, and yes, I mean ANY argument/anecdote/assumption you could put forward could be explained away by a steadfast determinist by saying "But [insert deity here] made it that way, we're just unable to recognize the plan"

Clavus, I am very sorry to hear this news. Accidental deaths always disturb me very deeply, maybe because my own father died in a very accidental and preventable manner. If I read in the newspaper about a man getting run over on his way home from work, it makes me cry. I hate it when things like this are so entirely preventable.

And I see from reading this whole thread that there is no use arguing with Guccilvr. I am terribly sorry that you feel that way about death, though I understand from my job that people believe what they need to believe. Feel free to correct me, but I get the feeling that you went through a very painful death of someone you loved deeply, and after that point it sort of cauterized your wound into something you don't want to probe and feel anymore... hence fatalism is easier than dealing with the actuality of death. (I am probably totally reading too much into this, but I have seen similar reactions in other people I know and can only go off "my experience" of what I observed in them.)

Socially and culturally, belief in fatalism seems to occur the most often when people have been stripped of any reason to believe that they have control or power in their lives, usually because of economic reasons or a traumatic event that disturbed them very deeply. Either that or they're Buddhist (believing that everything is impermanent, including life). I saw this quite clearly in Bangkok, when entire families (4-5+ people) would go riding by on tiny scooters at 40, 50 miles an hour... no helmets, no leather pants, nothing. Their lack of care for themselves was attributed to the factors I described above. You could say that they were not afraid of death, but I'd have to say that 1) they didn't have the resources to be more protected (car or even helmets) or even to sit around and debate about what "fatalism" means 2) their lack of power due to poverty and tragedy disconnected them from the reality that loss and sorrow are preventable, and 3) this material and political conditions justified their ideology of fatalism.

On seatbelts: I cannot recall ever having NOT worn one, going all the way back to childhood. It becomes part of my body when I am driving... I don't think about it, never really have. I don't drive unless all people in the car are belted... yes, I care about them, but I also don't want them being projectiles, either.

A seatbelt stopped me from either being killed or seriously disabled when I was 15 and riding in the back of a VW Rabbit on the way home from cross-country practice. I got a minor concussion from whiplash and cuts on my body from the force of the seatbelt, but you can imagine how grateful I was for those cuts.

I imagine it's just a matter of time before crash helmets will be required for automobile passengers along with seat belts and front and side air bags. Weren't most of these safety items tested on the race tracks and then adopted by the general public.

I was in an accident in 1999. I was tboned on the passenger side of the car by another car going over 65 mph (I was in the drivers seat). They told me that if my belt hadnt been on I'd have gone thru the window on the drivers side. For a month my body bore the marks of just how hard a seatbelt works to keep you in the car, I was completly black from the bruises made by the belt...from my shoulder to my right hip and then from hip to hip.....I looked awful, but everyday I looked in the mirror I blessed my seatbelt. Gucci can say all he wants how it obviously wasnt my time to go....but to me not wearing one is kinda like declining a life saving surgery....I'd rather take the precautions to risk PROLONGING my life for my husband and my child than not.

My grandfather was like Gucci (kinda), he used to say if its not your time to go you can stand on train tracks and get hit by a freight train and not die....I would ask him if he were willing to try that and his answer would be.....no not really...what idiot would deliberatly tempt "fate" like that?

Ok I don't know where the deity factor came in.. but yeah that's not at all what I'm saying. I have <b>absolutly NO belief in a deity</b>.


Abaya: I've had this belief ever since I was a young boy. My grandmother tells me that when I was 7, I made a statement that I'd be dead before 35. I've said this my entire life. I have lost some close people to me. I accept they are dead and gone but I don't focus on it. I don't go to funeral's I don't go to viewings, I just remember them how they were. It's easier for me that way. I may be exposing some sort of weakness by admitting this but that's just part of who I am. No apologies here.


As far as belief in fatalism goes, I only believe in some sort of fate, when it comes to death. I don't know why, I don't know how, I just do. As far as comments about being deaths bitch etc, I believe I control my own life. I don't believe some higher power orchestrates all the movements of a person or the universe. I can still be in control of my own life and still believe in some sort of reasoning behind death. The reason I can do this is because I understand that while I will die, it's how I choose to live my life that ultimately matters while I'm here. Yeah I'm gonna die, it may be today, it may be 80 years from now. I'm not worried about it one bit. When it happens it happens. There won't be much I can do about it.

I live in a country where it has been obligatory to wear seatbelts in frontseat since a long time. Since a couple of years it is also obligatory in the rearseats.
Since these laws are in force, statistics of casualties went down drastically.
Over the past 20 years I have had at least 3 serious crashes and I am 100% sure that in one of threse crashed I was kept alive because of the belts.
When I sit in the back of a car, I always wear belts as well.
People who do not wear their seatbelt are stupid. Just stupid. People who do not oblige other people who are in their car to wear belts are stupid and irresponsible. Can you imagine what I think of people who do not oblige their kids to wear belts.

Guccilvr, I know you're probably about sick of explaining yourself by now, but out of curiosity, if you had a kid, would you buckle them up? Based upon your arguments above, I would assume you wouldn't, but at the same time I have a hard time imagining anyone not making their kids buckle up. And further, if you did make your kids buckle up, would you then buckle up to set an example for them?

ive seen many accidents that people would have been seriously hurt without the aid of a seat belt.....it all depends on the type of accident not having a seat belt on and having it help u in an accident is like one in a million......

Yes I'd make the child buckle up. I never said I didn't agree with the stats, and I would make sure the child had a chance at survival. Does this counter my belief?? Not really.. because I can't set a belief for the child. I just do what's best for the child and when they form their own belief I accept it.



I guess I'm stupid then.

If anyone rides in my car while I am driving I say they can either get out of put on a seat belt. If we get slammed from the side and they get thrown into me and we both die from them not wearing a seatbelt.. that doesnt fly with me.

Of course, you might not die.

You might become disabled, or live in pain your whole life, or not be able to give your kid a piggyback ride when he asks because your back is too fucked up (grrrrr...), or lose an eye, or suffer massive brain damage, of become disfigured, etc, etc.

I am NOT trying to pick on guccilvr. I just want to point out that seatbelts help prevent other unpleasant things besides death.

clavus,
Can you imagine the injuries and lives saved if DOT approved crash helmets were required for all automobile passengers? I'm not knocking your position on seat belts, just trying to speculate where we are going with these manditory safety requirements.

Most states already require helmets for motorcycles but far more lives would be saved if they were required in cars due to the larger numbers of passengers and accidents. It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to imagine the states requiring them like they do with bikes and motorcycles. After all, not too many years ago people would have laughed at the idea of requiring seat belts.

In modern cars, the helmet protection is typically expected to be required by airbags, especially the side curtain ones. When working correctly, they can both help prevent head trauma as well as facial injuries.

This seems totally illogical to me. What do you mean you can't "set a belief for the child"? That would mean that you think death is predetermined just for yourself. If you're right about death being predetermined, which you think you are, then it's predetermined for everyone, not just you.

I think fightnight was trying to trap you and it seems that he's got you. It doesn't make sense that you wouldn't buckle yourself up because you believe that when it's your time to die, it's your time to die but you would want to give your child "a chance at survival." You've already said you don't believe in mitigating your chances of dying (giving yourself a chance to cheat death), so your argument here doesn't make sense.

-Tamerlain

ok here's the deal. I'm not going to tell a child what he should or shouldn't believe. Since I do know the stats of seatbelts, I'll buckle the kid up until he makes up his own mind. I don't know if I'm right about death being predetermined or not. It's what I think is best for me. You don't believe it.. that's a-ok with me. I'm not going to tell a kid hey, you're just gonna die, especially when they can't understand the concept of death. Furthermore, I don't give a shit about people trying to trap me or if my argument does or doesn't make sense. I won't wear a seatbelt and I don't give a shit if it's wrong or not.

I don't drive people around in my car without a seatbelt. it makes me sad to think that I might get into an accident and then I would feel horribly responsible for the rest of my life. If I ask them to wear a seatbelt, then at least I'll know I did what I could. (working on being a defensive driver... it's difficult to learn.)

I wear mine every single time I am in a vehicle. Driving or not.

If I am the driver, my vehicle will not move till everyone in my vehicle is bucked also. This is a non-questionable choice, its either buckle or walk.

I love how the states are putting these into laws, PA has had laws for ticketing you if you get pulled over and are found w/out a seat belt. Luckily they are working on changing it so you can just get pulled over for no seat belt alone. I also hope they up the costs for the ticket to about, say $1,000 or more. That would get the point across.

I have a very simple opinion and statement on this topic. If you live in the US it's the law (nuff said).

it is just such an automatic thing for me to do. been doing it since i was 5 (grew up on a property and we had an old padock basher that i learnt to drive in) really i think that it is a no brainer, you put your seat belt on and you don't end up being as smashed up if you have a crash!
i am of the oppinion that driving with out your seat belt is just asking for trouble, but hey it's your life if you want to not wear a seat belt out of sheer vanity and pig headedness then it is your problem, just don't expect anyone to have sympathy for you when you are a drooling wreck of a person.
to me the whole i don't wear a seatbelt thing sounds like one big marcho dick thing.
oh well .....

I always wear a seatbelt. My best friends father though was in a serious car crash and even the cops, paramedics and clean up crew said that if he HAD been wearing a seatbelt, he definately would have been killed. He was pushed to the passenger side of the car and the drivers side roof was crushed to the seat past the steering wheel, just trapping his legs.So I guess it's just the nature of the collision.

But if people don't want to wear them, don't. It doesn't matter to me. I'll still wear one.