If she is the one CHOOSING to be quiet then so be it.

Even if their idea that the expression of pain by the mother would be detrimental to the child - Haven't we seen in many cases that people who bottle up their emotions or pain tend to have MORE psychological problems than those to voice them in a non-aggresive way.

It seems to me that groaning, moaning, and even screaming during pushing could be more beneficial to the mother AND child than silence would be. A child needs to know how to properly express emotions without being a bully or hurting others.

If they are worried about things said that would affect the child then I wonder how much they've cared what was said and done DURING pregnancy because when I was pregnant I heard and read from many sources that music and the mother's voice during pregnancy seem to have at least a small effect on a fetus's development.

I have done a little reading on scientology and it's a lot about restraint and retraining yourself to think like (like they think) differently. It's brainwashing and I'm disappointed to see Cruise following like a blind little sheep. It sortof makes me wonder if he's not getting paid to do it in order to influence the few so far flockless sheep out there who admire him. But that's my own little bit of paranoia I guess.

I'm pretty sure there where no screams during my birth. I was delivered by c-section, so there were probably drugs involved.

Maybe that is why I am quiet now...

The only weird part is the 6 foot high signs.

Exactly. Bold added by me. After having read L.Ron's little scrap of paper detailing Scientology, I've come to the conclusion that it reads like the start of a bad sci-fi novel. What's even worse is that despite being called Scientology, I've yet to see any clinical or scientific research or proof or anything at all that details what they believe in is true.

If they're gonna call themselve's scientologists then they better be bringing out the clinical studies, research, and Ph.D's saying that silent births are good for the child. Whenever they mention research, it's something along the lines of, "oh..they've done research," or..."there have been numerous studies," but actually finding the research or the studies is nigh impossible.

Scientology isn't so much an insult to religion as it is an insult to science. as far as religion goes its merely farcical.

This is the real issue I have with this sort of thing. I used to think the promise keepers were misogynisitc fascists, but using social pressure to convince a woman not to use painkillers, groan, speak to, or touch her child is a little...too much.

It should also be noted here that when hubbard was still alive, his cult was being investigasted by the FBI, who veiwed them as a crime-syndicate, as well as being suspected of multiple break-ins. (They broke into the FBIs offices to see how much they knew, and destroyed thier records!)

The problem now is that Scientology is such a massive cash-cow that they can afford to bog down anyone who opposes them with frivilous lawsuits

They don't even need to win the lawsuits, their aim is to financially crush anyone who tries to speak out against scientology.

I fully encourage any and all to read up on Scientology at:
http://www.xenu.net/

Oh, and while you're there... everyone should read this:

http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html

by my good pal Carl Sagan

Medusa,
This is not about denying bonding to the child, so much as preventing the mother from bonding with the baby. There are lots of 'I survived' first person testimonial books out there, where people talk about having thier wives taken away from them by senior members for several days. No explaination given, none asked. Cars being 'borrowed', or simply not returned. Keeping these practices in mind, what could be the possible benifit of this cult having regular access to a child that does not have a caring gaurdian? (Especially if it turns out to be a girl?)
Most 'serious' members sign over all of thier assets, including thier house and cars. This is justified as a way to protect them from taxation. In truth it is used as away to prevent criticism or defection. Also keep in mind that most of these things are true only for the people that are NOT famous hollywood spokesmodels. (Tom for instance has not signed over anything to them. Most likely it will happen in his will.) They even maintain seperate 'churches' for people, depending on how they are to be treated, and what level with in the heirarchy they are.
The process they use known as auditing is a form of participant enabled hypnosis. (A low level form of mind control.) The best part about it is that the participant tells all of thier dirty little secrets, allowing them to be blackmailed, or otherwise manipulated according to the information they gave.

Disgusting, absolutely disgusting. Yet another case of religion messing with science. Another example of extremists exercising fanaticism.

Tom Cruise is and always was a nut.

Good links, I will read it up soon.
And to find out that Scientology is so big, it's scary. They're outta control. Someone's gotta stop them.

that's just awful...I feel sorry for Katie Holmes. She's probably all for it now, when you're in love it's easy to get carried away...you just want everyone to be pleased and happy. If a birth is to be natural, then a mother should make whatever sounds would be natural to her. As for the not touching...it's just sad. What sad people with way too much money and free time. You'd think they'd find better things to devote themselves to.

Oh I don't know if I'd call scientology a religion. A crazy ass cult yes, religion no.
And yes, Tom Cruise has always been a crazy bastard. He is still a good actor though...

Technically, all the majors religions started off as cults. Some would argue they still are.

But few of them were invented by a science fiction writer who had said the best way to become a millionaire is to make up a religion.

I'm not even sure I'd be willing to elevate scientology to cult status.

I'm having a hard time fitting scientology-hating into my already hectic schedule.

Maybe next Tuesday - but I can't promise anything.

Where I live, the tests are only done upon authorization from the parents. With both of my kids, my wife and I were specifically asked if we wanted the post birth blood test done. Since there were no cult members nearby, we said yes.

I personally would love to hear the audio of that birth to see how well she did (no, I don't want to see the cult kid arriving.) My wife had an epidural and plenty of noise besides. After witnessing birth, I can't see how anyone could stay quiet unless they were unconsious.

Ha yes!

Exactly what I was thinking there shakran

It's so much more a cult when it's *fiction* isn't it? :)

One can argue the fiction/non-fiction status of any of the holy books.

I think that the Cult status should denote the overall benefit/harm the organization gives to society. Organized religions have done their harm (see the Crusades, the current Jihads, etc), but also do a lot of charity work. Does Scientology do the same? Or is their sole benefit the charting of the e-thetans?

Frankly, I'm shocked by the complete intolerance for religion in this post, considering that TFP is full of so many compassionate and intelligent people.

What surprised me the most is the insistance that Scientology is somehow different than your religions, and therefore must be a cult.

I totally agree, they must be a cult. I mean just yesterday, I heard this story about this CRAZY cult that .. get this.. eats crackers and wine that symbolize eating the BODY AND BLOOD of their savior! How crazy is that? Oh.. oh.. and get this.. I heard about this other one, where at a young age, they chop parts of the man's penis right off? How SICK is that?! Oh and did you hear about the one that dips all their babies in "holy water?" They say it "cleanses" the baby -- ever heard of a shower?! It's so barbaric.

Throw not the first stones if ye live in a glass house. :| :|

If you want to debase a religion on it's customs and call it a cult you'd probably be better served to look at the silly traditions your own has (if you're religious, that is). Truly, they're all "cults" -- its just a twist on religion that allows people to segregate and say we're a religion and everyone else is some twisted cult. It's really inappropriate to draw that line, if you ask me. You all worship something with some strange traditions based on faith. You aren't so different as you claim.

Wow. :(

I guess I think Cynthetic and doc said it best:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq Tolerance of others is tantamount even if we find their customs not in line with our own.

Amen!

Looks to me like a know-it-all male pushing what's "correct" onto his young and naive partner..

I've told my wife many, many times... if the human race depended on me to populate the world, we'd die out quickly...

I cannot begin to imagine the pain involved in childbirth - and neither can Mr. Cruise..... :crazy:

You just trolling for fun here or are you really 'shocked'. We have been making fun of Scientology on TFP for as long as I remember, and hope we continue this.

Being an Athetist I think all religions wrong, but Scientology goes beyond wrong, into 'utterly fucking stupid'. Its a global con and easily traced as such. As such I will, in the spirit of free speech and tolerance say what I like about these shysters and their weak minded followers.

Tolerance means to tolerate, I am not going to go hunting down Scientologists, but that doesn't mean I"m not allowed to state how I feel about the whole scam.

Being an Atheist I think all religions wrong, but Christianity goes beyond wrong, into 'utterly fucking stupid'. Its a global con and easily traced as such. As such I will, in the spirit of free speech and tolerance say what I like about these shysters and their weak minded followers.

Tolerance means to tolerate, I am not going to go hunting down Christians, but that doesn't mean I"m not allowed to state how I feel about the whole scam.

And I'm sure that wouldn't cause any problems. Why the double standard here? As a proud atheist you should just be as adamant about telling Christians they were fucking stupid and that their religion was a global con.

Maybe he doesn't think Christianity is quite as stupid as Scientology?

Since when has making fun of one thing meant that you have to equally make fun of everything else related to it?

Not even close. This is an example of a cult taking a mother's child away.

Christianities roots are well founded. There WAS a guy named Jesus, and he was in fact put to death by order of Pilot. I trust the Roman records, I trust the evidence. These were real men and a real event. I do not think he was the son of god. I also do not think this was started as a global scam to make money. Early Christians were poor, shunned, persecuted, and executed for their faith. These are not what people out to scam are willing to put up with in the name of a scam. You can honestly wrong or dishonestly wrong. I think Christians are wrong, I know some have abused the religion for their own gain, but the message is a good message, the motives are pure. Scientology is a scam, pure and simple, a scam created by a B author, easily traced, preying upon those who are vulnerable.

I'd never question a persons strength of will or intelligence for being Christian because I am humble enough to know I may well be wrong. I will question a persons strength of will or intelligence without fail if its a scientologist. Either they are part of the scam, or they are a weak willed victim who didn't spend the 30 minutes of critical research it would take to show it to be a scam.

The difference, mr. troll, between a cult (scientology) and mainstream religion is about control. Scientologists are basically owned by their "curch." Me, on the other hand, may or may not donate to the collection plate as I choose. You are either being intentionally dense or have no idea what you are talking about.

Pray to me or you'll burn in the fiery pits of hell? Go to Church or you'll be damned forever? Sounds like a deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and it's leaders. Check.

Jesus, anyone?

I don't even need to address this one.

The only reason for using "cult" is so that you can label religions that don't agree with yours. It's a way of dividing "us" from "them," kinda like your usage of "troll".

And I'm not the only one who thinks it.

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQ...on_cultdef.htm

EDIT: By the way...why did you take the excerpt above out of a wiki article and conveniently omit the beginning of the article?

(emphasis mine)

Or even this?

I didn't paste the whole wiki article because there are varying definitions and some irrelevant information. I posted the secular definition. I also didn't call scientology a cult based on the christian definition of a cult and I compared cults to mainstream religion in general, not any specific religion like christianity. But go on and continue to take one sentence here and one sentence there to try and prove your point. I don't think anyone is buying it. If you don't think there's a difference between a cult and mainstream religion I really don't know what to tell you.

There is a clear distinction between Christians believing others will go to hell if they don't go to church... and the Christian church actively seeking to silence, persecute, and destroy Christians who discover the utter scam behind it. This may have been true of Christianity circa 1000 CE... but not today.

People are free to come and go from the church as they please... The church of scientology actually had a policy about dealing with excommunicated members, it's called "Fair Play". I suggest you read up a little about scientology... Before you are so quick to compare it to contemporary religions.

Well, if it was an actual religion and not a cult I would think it pretty odd. think people should have a right to think and practice whatever religion they want to, regardl;ess of the "different" practices. However......L. Ron Hubbard will admit he created this cult specifically for the purposes of making money. He is a science fiction writer, not a prophet of the aliens. Therefore, I think Tom and Katie are out of their fucking minds. I hate to say it but this is some of the most retarted horseshit I have ever heard.

i don't think you can put scientology in the same category as major religions unless you use extremely broad standards. maybe the definition of word "cult" is not always technically negative, but that's doesn't make scientology any less of a fraud.

furthermore, i've known people involved people involved in high-pressure groups/cults/"religions" similar to scientology. the people in these groups are on the phone constantly with their personal leader and they don't associate with others unless it's for recruiting purposes. they are in service to their organization every single day in continuous gatherings and activities. they don't go anywhere or do anything without fellow members knowing about it. they give very generously of their time and money. this is just anecdotal, more is going on behind the scenes.

the psychological manipulation/pressure in the above example is simply not present in a typical synagoge or church. a survey of ex-members would reinforce this point.

anyway, yeah, katie holmes is in deep.

going to go jumprope in my backyard

Wasn't Jesus a delusional Jewish carpenter and Mohammed a jumped up Arab bandit?

Why not follow a science fiction writer? As long as they aren't planning any suicide bombings in the name of Hubbard or claiming Florida as their Holy Land, they can play their silly games.

When I saw this post, I knew the fecal matter was about to hit the rapidly revolving air mover. (This doesn't change the fact that I want to be Toaster's love toy).

I present as evidence a cartoon characterization of Scientology for our mutual edification. (Yes, I will burn in hell).

Tom Cruise is a Moron

What's the difference?

I also find it strange when people of "mainstream" religious faiths laugh at things like Scientology. For some reason, ignoring the bounds of reality and simply relying on faith is perfectly rational when they do it, but not when those people do it.

There is a serious difference between asking for a donation and requiring a fee.

Not as bad as the day the child is about 5 or so and sees and hears Tommy Boy going apeshit at mom when they are having a knockdown dragout over some skirt he is after on a movie set. I can't even reall the topic of conversation in the delivery room the day I was born let alone if mom was pissed at dad for where she was.

And the signs? Sounds like Tom has some control issues. Perhaps that's why he went for the young thing.

I'm not talking about fees, I'm talking about their belief systems. I don't think people laugh at Scientology because they require fees. Most of the time, they are laughed at because of their beliefs.

No, they are laughed at beause the man who wrote the book upon which the religion is based admitted that it was fake. Jesus, Moses, Muhommed, etc. are yet to make such an admission. L. Ron Hubbard and his son both admitted that Scientology was fake, and his son said that it was a money making scam.

Who cares what she does? Really, who really cares?

Oh my, I didn't know that L Ron Hubbard and his son, both admitted that it is fake. Thanks willravel for pointing that out to me :)

Now this cult is getting weirder by the moment. If their "prophet" himself claims it is fake, why do the followers keep on going about this cult?

Is it because they believe that he has discovered something he doesn't know?
I don't get it.