Your Kid's Teacher Used To Be A Man...Now What? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

World's King · 02-28-2006, 07:04 PM

At least we know she ain't gonna try to fuck one of the kids...

Sweetpea · 02-28-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurkette

So we should punish these people because other people can't get their heads around the concept?

absolutely not. Although it seems that many small minded people would like to do so.

i find some of the obvious discrimination in this thread offending.

Keep in mind everyone... transgendered individuals are human beings, people who are just trying to be happy with themselves, people who have struggled with their gender image for goodness knows how long and finally found the courage to embrace who they are... WHY anyone want to stand in the way of that is beyond me.

sweetpea

Gilda · 02-28-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AquaFox

kids are too delicate to have that in their mind.... it will freak out and pervert elementry kids.... middle school kids would make fun of it way to much, and he would get made fun of and could inspire kids to become transgendered in highschool.... plus it sparks sexual thoughts in the kids..... as for college, i think he could do that without a problem

How do you think being around a transsexual teacher would influence a child to become transsexual? What would the mechanism be?

Gilda

ngdawg · 02-28-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

'snip'I think you have to realize that a transgendered person has no obligation to tell you that they have changed gender. For all you know, the woman you flirted with at the bar last night used to be Fred.

Just have to kind of threadjack based on that. A few years back, several of us went to a huge dance club. At the bar was a lanky blonde, dressed very nicely and surrounded by guys, giggling with the 'head toss'...and not ONE noticed the adam's apple, the huge square hands and long feet!! I whispered my findings to my friends as we watched Missy dance with partner after partner. As we left, one of my friends wanted to say goodnight to the bartender, a friend of hers and, yep, there he was, getting googly with Missy. My friend let him in on our 'discovery', at first he said no way, then on second or third look....realized....now, maybe I can see the others not knowing,what with drinking, etc....but the bartender?

Which brings me to this: every comment here is based on a preconceived prejudice because of the story as presented. Had the story been about a woman teacher who, after 33 years, got new breasts and then left her spouse for a woman, this wouldn't even make the internet.
Let's see....is the person in question certified to teach? Qualified? Otherwise healthy? This just doesn't seem to be such a big issue to me and yet forums are up in arms over it.
In New Jersey, substitute teachers need to take a certification test just for THAT job and this person has an entire career behind her in the field. So many burn out-teaching is a demanding job-and she wants to keep on. For that alone, I think she's terrific.

Gilda · 02-28-2006, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Some of you are able to accept just about anything as being "normal" or at least "acceptable," all in the name of HUMAN RIGHTS. And I agree with you to a certain point. But there is just no denying the fact that this type of behavior is more than a little bit 'off'. Especially in a school environment.

What behavior are you talking about? In what way do you expect this woman to behave that would be harmful to the children?

Quote:

Again, where do you draw the line? Instead of throwing non sequtirs, why don't you answer this question? You can't possibly consider a sex-change as a natural phenomenon?

No surgery is. What does that have to do with whether she's competent to teach children?

Quote:

The line for what is considered normal and acceptable continues to be pushed and pushed and pushed by those who choose to live in such abnormal ways.

In what way do you think she's living an abnormal life? By that, I mean, what evidence do you have that she's going to behave any differently around the children than she did before or than any other elderly woman?

Gilda

Gilda · 02-28-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I have no idea what someone changing their gender has to do with their ability to teach.

I think you have to realize that a transgendered person has no obligation to tell you that they have changed gender. For all you know, the woman you flirted with at the bar last night used to be Fred.

Absolutely right.

Gilda

shakran · 02-28-2006, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

Can I just make sure I understand this....this person had a sex change at the age of 70? and is still teaching at the age of 71?

That's the only thing that raised my eyebrows. Seems to me 70 is somewhat old to be having surgery that is not necessary to sustain life. What a risk she took.

JumpinJesus · 02-28-2006, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Again, where do you draw the line? Instead of throwing non sequtirs, why don't you answer this question? You can't possibly consider a sex-change as a natural phenomenon?

I draw the line where the behavior of the teacher has an adverse affect on the education of the students. I don't consider surgery, whether it's corrective or elective, a behavior that adversely affects the education of students.

For those who are opposed to this woman being allowed to teach, what is it about it that bothers you so much?

Gilda · 02-28-2006, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

That's the only thing that raised my eyebrows. Seems to me 70 is somewhat old to be having surgery that is not necessary to sustain life. What a risk she took.

It's a quality of life issue, not quantity, but it is very often necessary to the patient's psychological well being. If she's in good health, one particular Thai surgeon, Dr. Preecha, has quite a bit of experience at performing the surgery on elderly patients safely and effectively. Most SRS surgeries are performed between the ages of 30 and 50, but younger and older do occur.

Gilda

Ustwo · 02-28-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Natural perhaps, but wrong. And the genitals aren't removed, they are surgical altered into the form that matches the patient's internal gender.

Gilda

The testies are removed no? An orchectomy is really all that matters, without the gonads the rest is just extra flaps of skin.

trickyy · 03-01-2006, 12:48 AM

the news story doesn't really give much info on the circumstances, and i'm sure i would have a better grasp of the situation if i knew the community/school/teacher.

the bottom line for me is the effectiveness of the teacher. i would need some assurances that what appears to be an old man dressing as a woman would not be a distraction in the classroom. right now i'm skeptical. i don't think it's unreasonable to imagine students concentrating more on the teacher than the material. but i would like to hear reactions from the students and parents from the school, they will have a better feel for this.

Gilda · 03-01-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The testies are removed no? An orchectomy is really all that matters, without the gonads the rest is just extra flaps of skin.

Yes, the testes are removed and discarded. I was responding to your statment regarding "removing genitals". This woman still has genitals, she just has them in a form that matches her internal gender.

I personally consider my genitals to be a lot more than just extra flaps of skin, and I suspect most women do as well.

Gilda

DJ Happy · 03-01-2006, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

My definition of 'odd' in terms of protection is NOT Mr. M becoming Ms. M, it's the slovenly guy up the street who likes handing out candy or the 50 year old man who dresses like the 70's Alice Cooper, rides a bike and can't form a sentence without saying 'doooood'.

Why would you object to a 50 year old bike riding Alice Cooper fan teaching your kids? What threat does he pose?

Astrocloud · 03-01-2006, 04:50 AM

From an evolutionary psychological point of view... this transsexual is highly successful:

Quote:

McBeth, a retired sales executive who was married for 33 years and had three children.

I find it repulsive in a squeamish sort of way. I am also somewhat repulsed by Medical Accidents removing the testicles.

Quote:

* A 67-year-old man named Hurshell Ralls went into surgery for bladder cancer and, while under anesthesia, the surgeon removed his penis and testicles because he concluded that the cancer had spread to the penis. No one had ever discussed the possibility of such radical additional surgery with Mr. Ralls who was shocked to learn what had happened to him at a time when he was unable to make a conscious decision about the removal of his penis and testicles. Later, after examining a tissue sample, another doctor concluded that Ralls never had cancer of the penis.

I guess my question is: -if the man above; this victim of medical malpractice; decided to become a teacher -would there be the same brouhaha? Why not?

martinguerre · 03-01-2006, 04:54 AM

astro...likely none.

as long as he presented and was read as "masculine" it would never come up at all.

ngdawg · 03-01-2006, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

Why would you object to a 50 year old bike riding Alice Cooper fan teaching your kids? What threat does he pose?

I have this peeve for times when another focuses on half a statement.....I don't care if the person is a fan of someone. I said "the 50 year old man who dresses like the 70's Alice Cooper, rides a bike and can't form a sentence without saying 'doooood' ". That person (who is real, btw) is more unnormal than anyone trying(and succeeding) to reconcile their internal gender with their external. If you would like someone who can't live in the real world to teach your kids, that's your perogative.

shakran · 03-01-2006, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

It's a quality of life issue, not quantity, but it is very often necessary to the patient's psychological well being. If she's in good health, one particular Thai surgeon, Dr. Preecha, has quite a bit of experience at performing the surgery on elderly patients safely and effectively. Most SRS surgeries are performed between the ages of 30 and 50, but younger and older do occur.

Gilda

given, but how far do we take the surgery-for-psychological-wellbeing bit?

Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a condition in which the patient does not feel complete until a (perfectly healthy) limb has been amputated. They'll do just about anything to get rid of that limb - and some doctors are oblidging them. Once the limb is gone, they feel great.

So the question is, should doctors amputate just because someone feels their current body layout is wrong? And by the same token, should doctors operate in a sex change on a high-risk patient? There are some very disturbing medical ethics questions that arise when you turn to surgery to correct a psychological condition.

Charlatan · 03-01-2006, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

given, but how far do we take the surgery-for-psychological-wellbeing bit?

Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a condition in which the patient does not feel complete until a (perfectly healthy) limb has been amputated. They'll do just about anything to get rid of that limb - and some doctors are oblidging them. Once the limb is gone, they feel great.

So the question is, should doctors amputate just because someone feels their current body layout is wrong? And by the same token, should doctors operate in a sex change on a high-risk patient? There are some very disturbing medical ethics questions that arise when you turn to surgery to correct a psychological condition.

While these are interesting questions, they have no bearing on the topic at hand (unless I missing something - no pun intended).

DJ Happy · 03-01-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I have this peeve for times when another focuses on half a statement.....I don't care if the person is a fan of someone. I said "the 50 year old man who dresses like the 70's Alice Cooper, rides a bike and can't form a sentence without saying 'doooood' ". That person (who is real, btw) is more unnormal than anyone trying(and succeeding) to reconcile their internal gender with their external. If you would like someone who can't live in the real world to teach your kids, that's your perogative.

I would consider that person more normal and in touch with the real world than someone who'd undergo surgery to change their gender.

Some here seem to consider trans-gender surgery the most normal thing in the world and seem genuinely confused as to why some might have some sort of reservation regarding it. As open-minded as you all want to appear, can you not see why some people would be very sceptical about it all? I mean, if you can be wary of a 50 year old throwback to 70s punk rock who says "Dude" frequently, can you not understand how others would be wary of someone who surgically went from a he to a she?

Charlatan · 03-01-2006, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ Happy

I would consider that person more normal and in touch with the real world than someone who'd undergo surgery to change their gender.

Some here seem to consider trans-gender surgery the most normal thing in the world and seem genuinely confused as to why some might have some sort of reservation regarding it. As open-minded as you all want to appear, can you not see why some people would be very sceptical about it all? I mean, if you can be wary of a 50 year old throwback to 70s punk rock who says "Dude" frequently, can you not understand how others would be wary of someone who surgically went from a he to a she?

Of course most can understand why some people would be concerned or have questions. Given that transgender surgery isn't common and that many have erroneous, preconcieved notions about the whole process... it is almost a given.

I will make no comment on the alice cooper wannabe because I see it as a red herring in this discussion. But I will say that if I read Dawg's intent correctly, there is more that is wierd in this fellow than a woman who just happened to once have had a penis.

The only part that is odd in this is that the teacher returned to work at the same school. Parents (and the administration) are uncomfortable with having to explain what it means to be transgendered to children. Had the teacher started work at another school, the issue would be moot. New teachers start at schools all the time.

Personally, I see this whole thing as a teaching opportunity.

Ustwo · 03-01-2006, 07:49 AM

I suppose what I like to do in something like this is bring out the hypocrisy I see in these issues. What makes one thing something parents should just ‘get over’ and another something that’s just a fetish?

If this is all about being comfortable in your own skin and a good teacher then really no moral or psychological matters should come into play. I’m sure someday someone will isolate what makes someone transsexual. It will either genetic or developmental in nature, most likely both, but they will say here is the cause. But this same thing can be said for almost anything, even things like being violent will have definable genetic components.

So lets forget diaper man and it seems to be making people miss the point.

Lets take this one step back even, lets say the teacher was a cross dresser. So now instead of wanting to BE a woman, he just now wants to feel like one. I don’t understand cross dressing any more than I understand transsexuals, but obviously they feel a need to do it or they wouldn’t be doing it. Is this just a fetish to be dismissed out of hand, while wanting your penis ‘altered’ is something that we should just get over?

I ask again, where do YOU draw your line?

Astrocloud · 03-01-2006, 08:50 AM

This discussion is rather pointless in my opinion. The focus is on who the teacher is rather than how they teach the kids. Very few people approve of a teacher who hits students for example... however a teacher that merely holds the view that Corporeal Punishment is Okay (without crossing the boundry of hitting kids) is probably an acceptable teacher. Another example is that of a Religious teacher who is using school time to attempt to convert students. The line is crossed when 'being' religious takes up class time and is otherwise forced upon unwitting children.

It seems that the Ultra-Conservative element in this society wants to peer into everyone's closets. From their standpoint: it doesn't matter if you are good at your job -all that matters is if they "approve" of you or not. Obviously, a person who has a sex change does not meet their approval.

Bill O'Rights · 03-01-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I ask again, where do YOU draw your line?

When it becomes a danger to the children to which he/she is entrusted.

While I, personally, may raise an eyebrow...hell, two eyebrows even, in the end...it's none of my business. It only becomes my business when there exists the potential for harm to come to the students. Somehow, I do not expect Lily McBeth to begin indoctrinating children on the virtues of transsexualism. So long as "Miss" McBeth does "her" job, and does it well...her personal life is of no concern to me. The only thing that I truly care about is her professional life.

Consider. When I'm looking for a good orthodontist, I don't particularly care whether or not he's wearing pretty lacy women's undergarments under his Dockers. Or whether or not he likes to dress up as a chicken when he gets home. All I care about is whether he can straighten my kid's teeth, and do a good job of it.

Charlatan · 03-01-2006, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I suppose what I like to do in something like this is bring out the hypocrisy I see in these issues. What makes one thing something parents should just ‘get over’ and another something that’s just a fetish?

If this is all about being comfortable in your own skin and a good teacher then really no moral or psychological matters should come into play. I’m sure someday someone will isolate what makes someone transsexual. It will either genetic or developmental in nature, most likely both, but they will say here is the cause. But this same thing can be said for almost anything, even things like being violent will have definable genetic components.

So lets forget diaper man and it seems to be making people miss the point.

Lets take this one step back even, lets say the teacher was a cross dresser. So now instead of wanting to BE a woman, he just now wants to feel like one. I don’t understand cross dressing any more than I understand transsexuals, but obviously they feel a need to do it or they wouldn’t be doing it. Is this just a fetish to be dismissed out of hand, while wanting your penis ‘altered’ is something that we should just get over?

I ask again, where do YOU draw your line?

Excellent post Ustwo.

I will say this... most crossdressers are straight men who do it in their spare time (i.e. at home or the like). In my mind, it's a totally seperate issue. I would not welcome his crossdressing in class, I would also say that someone to coming to class in bondage gear is wrong for the same reason.

I liken transgendered individuals to homosexuals in that it is not a fashion choice (though some would like to depate this, let's not do it here for sake of the arguement). I would not expect a homosexual teacher to be overt in their sexuality anymore than a heterosexual one.

What I'm getting at is that the examples you draw have more to do with sexual proclivities. The issues of homosexuality and transgenderism need not.

The_Jazz · 03-01-2006, 09:24 AM

I've been lurking on this thread, but this is just too interesting to pass up.

Ustwo, I think I understand where you're coming from even though I think that it's a flawed position. We're talking about personal appearance as the core issue, I think. Mr. McBeth now wants to be seen as Ms. McBeth. Let's leave the sexual aspect of it aside for a moment and look at that other issue that's always devisive in school (and not really relevent except to make a point) - religion.

What if Mr. McBeth, instead of going through gender reassignment, went through a religious conversion? Now he's gone from Christian (I'm making an assumption) to, say a Hasidic Jew, which I'm singling out because of the men's distinctive ear locks, dress and beards. He could also become a Sikh and have to grow his beard and wear a turban. Regardless, his personal appearance is going to be radically different than it was the previous school year. Is anyone upset by that? How about if he dyes his hair purple wears leather clothes and has an earring? Yeah, he looks like an idiot since he's 71, but he's still a good teacher.

Personally, I think that once I'm past the discomforting thought of having my penis cut off, I'm fine with whatever this guy wants to do with his appearance. If he's touching children inappropriately or hitting them or teaching them that the Shakespeare wasn't much of a writer but did a great job building the pyramids, then I've got a problem. Surely, he/she realizes that there are going to be lots of questions by the kids, many of them inappropriate, but that his own decision and life that he chooses to lead.

Bill O'Rights · 03-01-2006, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Yes, the testes are removed and discarded.

Excuse me, for just a moment, while I regress back to Middle School. Does this send cold chills up anyone elses spine? Didn't you draw your legs in...just a little closer?

The testes are removed...and discarded. Wow...just like that. Cold. Clinical.

Gilda · 03-01-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I suppose what I like to do in something like this is bring out the hypocrisy I see in these issues. What makes one thing something parents should just ‘get over’ and another something that’s just a fetish?

If this is all about being comfortable in your own skin and a good teacher then really no moral or psychological matters should come into play. I’m sure someday someone will isolate what makes someone transsexual. It will either genetic or developmental in nature, most likely both, but they will say here is the cause. But this same thing can be said for almost anything, even things like being violent will have definable genetic components.

Violence directly harms others. Crossdressing isn't always a paraphilia, though it can be, and it's a pretty harmless one.

Quote:

Lets take this one step back even, lets say the teacher was a cross dresser. So now instead of wanting to BE a woman, he just now wants to feel like one. I don’t understand cross dressing any more than I understand transsexuals, but obviously they feel a need to do it or they wouldn’t be doing it. Is this just a fetish to be dismissed out of hand, while wanting your penis ‘altered’ is something that we should just get over?

I think both are harmless. So what if a guy goes home and puts on a dress? Is that somehow lessening his ability to teach his students? Ms. McBeth is now a woman, so when she shows up in women's clothes, she's dressed appropriately for her sex. To continue with your analogy, she'd be crossdressing if she showed up with a male presentation.

Gilda

Gilda · 03-01-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Excuse me, for just a moment, while I regress back to Middle School. Does this send cold chills up anyone elses spine? Didn't you draw your legs in...just a little closer?

The testes are removed...and discarded. Wow...just like that. Cold. Clinical.

I've read of MTF's or their wives wanting to keep them as a trophy of sorts, but it's not allowed, as they're considered medical waste.

Gilda

Charlatan · 03-01-2006, 03:08 PM

Gilda, I think Ustwo was speaking about a crossdress who shows up to teach a class dressed as a woman (as opposed to one that does so in their private time).

Ustwo · 03-01-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Consider. When I'm looking for a good orthodontist, I don't particularly care whether or not he's wearing pretty lacy women's undergarments under his Dockers. Or whether or not he likes to dress up as a chicken when he gets home. All I care about is whether he can straighten my kid's teeth, and do a good job of it.

So you are saying any 'non-normal' behavior should be kept in the closet at home?

Gilda · 03-01-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Gilda, I think Ustwo was speaking about a crossdress who shows up to teach a class dressed as a woman (as opposed to one that does so in their private time).

That wasn't clear, but thank you. Male crossdressers have been fired from jobs because of crossdressing in their private lives, which I find ridiculous.

Gilda

Charlatan · 03-01-2006, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

That wasn't clear, but thank you. Male crossdressers have been fired from jobs because of crossdressing in their private lives, which I find ridiculous.

Gilda

I've heard of this as well, and I agree ridiculous.

Ustwo · 03-01-2006, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I've heard of this as well, and I agree ridiculous.

Just how successful a doctor do you think I'd be if I showed up wearing a dress?

I'd fire any male employee who cross dressed not because I really give a shit, but because it would cost me money. I'm getting parents to entrust their children with me, I'm not out to change the social order. A business exists to make money, not make social statements. Maybe if I was in Berkeley it wouldn't matter, and I could most likely increase my patient flow by putting Bushhitler posters up as well, but in the rest of middle America I'd be committing financial suicide.

If a guy wants to dress like a woman and work they should open their own place and see how well that works out.

abaya · 03-01-2006, 08:47 PM

Dude, Ustwo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

Male crossdressers have been fired from jobs because of crossdressing in their private lives, which I find ridiculous.

Key concept being NOT AT WORK. Read a little more carefully...

Ustwo · 03-01-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Dude, Ustwo... Key concept being NOT AT WORK. Read a little more carefully...

Ok missed that, I confess.

But people are still skirting around the issue here.

Its ok for a guy to get a sex change and teach but it wouldn't be ok for a guy to cross dress and teach? (and just to be clear this is cross dressing in the class room, not at home, not at a party, but at work)

Dragonknight · 03-02-2006, 03:36 AM

Okay if your asking does, "Ms. M still KNOW how to teach?" Yes, her gender change did nothing to change her abilities to teach children.

If your asking "Is it okay for a person who changes gender to teach in a class?" Playing the Devils advocate here, yes and no.

Yes I feel that he/she (could go either way) can still teach. No I don't think that he/she should be able to teach in the SAME elementary class/school if he/she has been teaching in the class/school for a while. When I was in elementary school I loved my teachers, and there sex was a part of it. My male teachers were a little more (for the sake of argument) fatherly, and my female teachers motherly. I would compare them to other male role models that were around me. My female teachers I would compare to my female role models.
Children are children and will get confused or unnerved about things. Especially when there parents have biased feelings about them. Yes you can explain this to them all in till you a blue in the face, and most will get it and be okay. Some might still not get why Mr. M became Ms. M and can be comfortable with that. Those boys or girls who were used to the manly Mr. M might just not get the change to Ms. M. Come on there Elementary CHILDREN, not grown adults. They don't see things like adults do, especially when you take the children's parents into account. Bottom line children see things how there parents do 70% of the time, and if there parent has a (wrongly so) negative view then so are they. The schools job isn't to educate the parents it's to educate the children, despite the nonsense the parents may put there.

I'm sorry, some people have to change there lifestyles because of there jobs, some people my have to change there jobs because of there lifestyles.

My solution would be to take a year off, then allow the teacher back to teach at the school. I'd say a large part of the people who were the problem causers will completely forget about it, and you can start your New life fresh. Like it or not your life is now new and there is going to be a lot of changes.

Charlatan · 03-02-2006, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Ok missed that, I confess.

But people are still skirting around the issue here.

Its ok for a guy to get a sex change and teach but it wouldn't be ok for a guy to cross dress and teach? (and just to be clear this is cross dressing in the class room, not at home, not at a party, but at work)

That's because they are two entirely different things.

In the crossdressing scenario, he is acting out a fetish in the classroom. Just as I wouldn't expect to see a teacher show up in bondage gear to teach a class I do not expect to see a crossdresser.

In the transgendered scenario, the teacher was a man before the operation and is (for all intents and purposes) a female after the operation. Unless there is a law forbidding women from teaching I don't see the problem.

I can, however, understand the discomfort of the scenario described by dragonknight above. While I would hope that one day it would be fine for the man to return and as a woman and pick up where they left off, I recognize that this might not be the most practical of situations. Legally, they should be allowed to do it but I think the transgenered person should take a long hard think about the whole situation before they try to resume their old life. There are more people involved than just themselves.

I would, however, support either decision to the fullest.

Astrocloud · 03-02-2006, 06:16 AM

I wonder if someone had some hideous deformity -if they'd be allowed to teach. I wonder if someone had a punk rock hairstyle -if they'd be allowed to teach. I wonder if teachers who hold opinions that don't favor the current Bush Government -if they'd be allowed to teach.

Quote:

In March 2003, a teenage girl named Courtney presented one of her poems before an audience at Barnes & Noble bookstore in Albuquerque, then read the poem live on the school's closed-circuit television channel. A school military liaison and the high school principal accused the girl of being "un-American" because she criticized the war in Iraq and the Bush administration's failure to give substance to its "No child left behind" education policy. The girl's mother, also a teacher, was ordered by the principal to destroy the child's poetry. The mother refused and may lose her job.

Bill Nevins [faculty adviser for the poetry club] was suspended for not censoring the poetry of his students. ... He was later fired by the principal. ... Nevins applied for a teaching post in another school and was offered the job but he can't go to work until Rio Rancho's principal sends the new school Nevins' credentials. The principal has refused to do so, and that adds yet another issue to the lawsuit, which is awaiting a trial date.

[T]he principal and the military liaison read a poem of their own as they raised the flag outside the school. When the principal had the flag at full staff, he applauded the action he'd taken in concert with the military liaison. Then to all students and faculty who did not share his political opinions, the principal shouted: "Shut your faces." ... Posters done by art students were ordered torn down, even though none was termed obscene. Some were satirical, implicating a national policy that had led us into war. Art teachers who refused to rip down the posters on display in their classrooms were not given contracts to return to the school in this current school year.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086910.htm

shakran · 03-02-2006, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

I wonder if someone had some hideous deformity -if they'd be allowed to teach.

They would if the school didn't want to be sued to hell and gone.

Quote:

I wonder if someone had a punk rock hairstyle -if they'd be allowed to teach.

Well, they shouldn't be. There is such a thing as professional dress. Teachers don't even have to dress that professionally. But if you can't be bothered not to look like a train wreck when you show up to your job, you shouldn't have the job. If you insist on doing the punk rock thing, there are plenty of clubs, bars, and junkyards where that kind of look will fly. But teachers are professionals and should act as such.

Quote:

I wonder if teachers who hold opinions that don't favor the current Bush Government -if they'd be allowed to teach.

In most cases, yes. The article you quoted is somewhat irrelevant. Just becasue one school has one asshole does not mean that is the same case for all schools.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086910.htm[/QUOTE]

Ustwo · 03-02-2006, 06:36 AM

I'm sure that story is 100% accurate astrocloud as I know everything on the internet is true

02-28-2006, 07:04 PM	#41 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	At least we know she ain't gonna try to fuck one of the kids... __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

03-01-2006, 04:54 AM	#55 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	astro...likely none. as long as he presented and was read as "masculine" it would never come up at all. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

03-01-2006, 07:49 AM	#61 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I suppose what I like to do in something like this is bring out the hypocrisy I see in these issues. What makes one thing something parents should just ‘get over’ and another something that’s just a fetish? If this is all about being comfortable in your own skin and a good teacher then really no moral or psychological matters should come into play. I’m sure someday someone will isolate what makes someone transsexual. It will either genetic or developmental in nature, most likely both, but they will say here is the cause. But this same thing can be said for almost anything, even things like being violent will have definable genetic components. So lets forget diaper man and it seems to be making people miss the point. Lets take this one step back even, lets say the teacher was a cross dresser. So now instead of wanting to BE a woman, he just now wants to feel like one. I don’t understand cross dressing any more than I understand transsexuals, but obviously they feel a need to do it or they wouldn’t be doing it. Is this just a fetish to be dismissed out of hand, while wanting your penis ‘altered’ is something that we should just get over? I ask again, where do YOU draw your line? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-01-2006, 09:24 AM	#65 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I've been lurking on this thread, but this is just too interesting to pass up. Ustwo, I think I understand where you're coming from even though I think that it's a flawed position. We're talking about personal appearance as the core issue, I think. Mr. McBeth now wants to be seen as Ms. McBeth. Let's leave the sexual aspect of it aside for a moment and look at that other issue that's always devisive in school (and not really relevent except to make a point) - religion. What if Mr. McBeth, instead of going through gender reassignment, went through a religious conversion? Now he's gone from Christian (I'm making an assumption) to, say a Hasidic Jew, which I'm singling out because of the men's distinctive ear locks, dress and beards. He could also become a Sikh and have to grow his beard and wear a turban. Regardless, his personal appearance is going to be radically different than it was the previous school year. Is anyone upset by that? How about if he dyes his hair purple wears leather clothes and has an earring? Yeah, he looks like an idiot since he's 71, but he's still a good teacher. Personally, I think that once I'm past the discomforting thought of having my penis cut off, I'm fine with whatever this guy wants to do with his appearance. If he's touching children inappropriately or hitting them or teaching them that the Shakespeare wasn't much of a writer but did a great job building the pyramids, then I've got a problem. Surely, he/she realizes that there are going to be lots of questions by the kids, many of them inappropriate, but that his own decision and life that he chooses to lead. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

03-01-2006, 03:08 PM	#69 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Gilda, I think Ustwo was speaking about a crossdress who shows up to teach a class dressed as a woman (as opposed to one that does so in their private time). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-01-2006, 12:48 AM	#51 (permalink)
trickyy ►	the news story doesn't really give much info on the circumstances, and i'm sure i would have a better grasp of the situation if i knew the community/school/teacher. the bottom line for me is the effectiveness of the teacher. i would need some assurances that what appears to be an old man dressing as a woman would not be a distraction in the classroom. right now i'm skeptical. i don't think it's unreasonable to imagine students concentrating more on the teacher than the material. but i would like to hear reactions from the students and parents from the school, they will have a better feel for this.

03-01-2006, 08:50 AM	#62 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	This discussion is rather pointless in my opinion. The focus is on who the teacher is rather than how they teach the kids. Very few people approve of a teacher who hits students for example... however a teacher that merely holds the view that Corporeal Punishment is Okay (without crossing the boundry of hitting kids) is probably an acceptable teacher. Another example is that of a Religious teacher who is using school time to attempt to convert students. The line is crossed when 'being' religious takes up class time and is otherwise forced upon unwitting children. It seems that the Ultra-Conservative element in this society wants to peer into everyone's closets. From their standpoint: it doesn't matter if you are good at your job -all that matters is if they "approve" of you or not. Obviously, a person who has a sex change does not meet their approval.

03-02-2006, 03:36 AM	#76 (permalink)
Dragonknight Insane Location: Hawaii	Okay if your asking does, "Ms. M still KNOW how to teach?" Yes, her gender change did nothing to change her abilities to teach children. If your asking "Is it okay for a person who changes gender to teach in a class?" Playing the Devils advocate here, yes and no. Yes I feel that he/she (could go either way) can still teach. No I don't think that he/she should be able to teach in the SAME elementary class/school if he/she has been teaching in the class/school for a while. When I was in elementary school I loved my teachers, and there sex was a part of it. My male teachers were a little more (for the sake of argument) fatherly, and my female teachers motherly. I would compare them to other male role models that were around me. My female teachers I would compare to my female role models. Children are children and will get confused or unnerved about things. Especially when there parents have biased feelings about them. Yes you can explain this to them all in till you a blue in the face, and most will get it and be okay. Some might still not get why Mr. M became Ms. M and can be comfortable with that. Those boys or girls who were used to the manly Mr. M might just not get the change to Ms. M. Come on there Elementary CHILDREN, not grown adults. They don't see things like adults do, especially when you take the children's parents into account. Bottom line children see things how there parents do 70% of the time, and if there parent has a (wrongly so) negative view then so are they. The schools job isn't to educate the parents it's to educate the children, despite the nonsense the parents may put there. I'm sorry, some people have to change there lifestyles because of there jobs, some people my have to change there jobs because of there lifestyles. My solution would be to take a year off, then allow the teacher back to teach at the school. I'd say a large part of the people who were the problem causers will completely forget about it, and you can start your New life fresh. Like it or not your life is now new and there is going to be a lot of changes. __________________ Freedom is NOT Free.

03-02-2006, 06:36 AM	#80 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I'm sure that story is 100% accurate astrocloud as I know everything on the internet is true __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.