Compatibility of morals...
 

I've been sitting on this since this past friday (it's wednesday now), but I wanted to get some feedback on what happened. For the record, the parties involved were my friend and the girl he was with, not me. The three of us went downtown together.

You are going out with a person to a social gathering- bar, club, etc. You know the person a good bit, but not very thoroughly. They are extremely attractive, totally "your type", and have a great personality. Just very cool person all around.

But then, you find out that person is extremely bigoted against gays. Like.. there were two men just hugging, not making out or anything, and she literally points and says "that's disgusting". She complained the whole rest of the evening about "having to see that". Basically, she's a total bigot towards gays.

So the real bredth of the question is this:

How far would you go with a person whose ideals/morals are very disagreeable to you?

EDIT: Due to the comments made in some posts, i'll add the following: I obviously didn't make it clear enough, but she complained ALL NIGHT following that event, going on and on about 'why they have to be like that where [she] can see it'. It was a very long tirade that lasted the rest of the evening. This was not a snap-judgment, this was a night-long observation.

As you were. :)

If someone said that in my presence, I would probably say, "Well, then, we're done here. I don't date bigots," and leave. Bigotry is a big one in my book.

I think there are varying levels of disagreeability. For instance, my boyfriend is a vegetarian. I'm not. I let him know when we started dating that as long as he didn't try to change me, I wouldn't try to change him. I cook vegetarian meals for the both of us at home as a compromise, and he doesn't complain when I order/eat meat when we go out. So while his ideals are different from mine, and yes, disagreeable to me, they aren't so disagreeable that it's worth arguing over or whatnot.

Religion is another issue where compromise can play a part.

But bigotry? No way. If they were really into drugs, that wouldn't fly either. If they weren't pro-choice, I'd probably break it off before it went too far. There are just some things you don't compromise on.

Depends on the morals. I can be pretty layed back. If it's nothing seirous, I'm more than willing to explore what we DO have in common.

Did it once when I was young, just for the sex. When we went to her place, I found out that she had a rather repugnant (to me) way of making a living -- call it balls-to-the-wall capitalism, technically legal but ruining a lot of lives. And she'd done well at it: "her place" turned out to be a luxury condo 20 stories above Nob Hill with a view to die for. She had half a floor to herself.

Neither the evening nor the sex were especially good -- kept asking myself, "Why am I here?" And there was no good answer -- well, there was an answer, obviously, but I found out the hard way that it wasn't any good. Without a certain sympathy towards her, how good could it be?

I couldn't just date someone or just have sex with them if their morals were heinous. It would depend on whether the particular moral or morals were that important to me. If they were something I could deal with, I might be friends. But if they were "very disagreeable", I think I'd bow out.

Going by the circumstance you posted, I couldn't date a person like that. I can't stand bigotry, and regardless if I enjoyed his company in other aspects, I would never feel right being with a person so unlike me in such an important way.

Your post was a good guide to the level of moral disparity you were suggesting. That kind of opposing point of view isn't able to be reconciled with kindness -- and without kindness in a relationship, what have you got that you want to keep?

Snowy said it really well, there are some issues which can be glossed over and some that cannot. You just have to decide where that line lies for you.

I don't find someone who is disgusted by gays to be a bigot. To imply such a thing is a bit pompous, imo.

I can date people and have dated people and am currently dating someone whos morals are other than my own. I find pretentiousness more offensive. People can be who they are and that is fine with me. And part of that is allowing people to be who they are and have the opinions they have without me judging them. They can judge each other all they want. But I won't.

Well, let's define it, yes?

I guess that could mean a lot of people, even those that are indiscriminantly disgusted by homosexuals.

I can only think of a few things that would end the night without so much as a "thank you, ma'am"....the anti-gay stuff....racist remarks.... Anything else I really can't imagine having a problem with as long as we could respectfully discuss our differences of opinion on the subject. So, no "I'm a Republican cause Daddy says I'm a Republican" or "Meat-eaters are terrorists" girls for me, thank you very much.

I doubt I could stand someone who had bad morality. There's very little else that can turn an attractive person ugly so fast.

You have to decide where the line is, it is that simple.

I don't think I could be with someone who can't see things from other perspectives and find analogies.

An analogy of true love between a man and a woman can be seen in love between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. An analogy of consuming alcohol being morally okay should be made to people who use other non-harmful substances like marijuana. If people can't see patterns above what they are told is morally right and wrong and decide things for themselves.. don't think I could respect them.

morals, at least how i define them, are important to me, so i checked in the box that once i discovered this, that would pretty much be it romantically, however, i'd still be friends...

sweetpea

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, well how exactly DO you define bigotry then? :hmm:

Dictionary Definition:

"big·ot (bĭg'ət)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."

'nuff said.

sweetpea

My gut reaction is "they're not my morals." so why should it matter? But as I sit and analyze a bit more, I realize that it would be very difficult to be with someone long-term if they were to regularly cheat on me, or if they were to embezzle funds. Those are the two that are especially difficult for me to cope with, but I'm sure that there are others that would eventually get under my skin. Especially if they are actively participating in something that could potentially get them thrown in prison. I'm good at writing and all, but I am not a fan of attemping to keep a relationship going when they are stuck in jail for a good few months/years.

So I suppose as long as they were moderately lawful, it wouldn't bother me much.
Then again, I do find it very difficult to deal with someone that is outright bigoted, and I suppose that has something to do with morals as well.

I would be just fine with someone of an entirely different faith, but I don't think I would go for a white-collar crime lord.

I have a inlaw who would enjoy being a Nazi.

His grandfather was a member of the Waffen SS, and he has on more than one occasion made comments of the 'Hitler wasn't all bad' variaty.

He is also a great guy to be around, good with kids, works hard, etc etc.

I've found some of his comments indirectly offensive at times, and while I have called him out in a friendly manner I'm not going to make a big fuss over it. Were I Jewish, Russian, or the like I'd be most likely very offended but I don't think its my job to be offended for everyone else in the world. He may have his opinions but its not like he is attending a local Illinois Nazi meeting.

Likewise everyone has their tolerance limits. I've been in clubs where there have been people openly having sex, be it male-female or female-female. This did not offend me. Had it been male-male I wouldn't have been offended but I sure as hell would have been turned off, as I find male-male sex acts disgusting. Am I a bigot because of this? Perhaps but I'm willing to accept the fact that I find such activities to be disgusting and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

Now that that rambleing statment is out of the way, more to the point.

Could I date, marry a homophobic woman? Perhaps I did, as she is more turned off by male-male sex than I am and while I don't think that makes one a homophobe, I'm sure some would disagree. If she were a true homophobe, I'd learn to live with it as it would affect such a minor portion of our lives that it would not be worth throwing the rest out. I would do this because homophobia isn't a major issue on my moral compass.

So the question is, as others have stated, where it stands with you, and how it would affect your time together.

Does being intolerant of intolerance make one intolerant? :D

Your option #3 suits my opinion the best.

I think it's a perfectly natural reaction for a straight person to find two blokes - kissing and all that - mildly repulsive.

^ that would start to get on my nerves after a while, though.

depends entirely upon 1) the issue, some are worth working on, some not worth discussing further. 2) your willingness to understand their point of view -- even if you disagree with it.

If your willing to take the time to understand their point of view, you could have enough discussion to move in a common direction. Who knows, occassionally you may change your own mind.

I have a very hard time being with someone who's not at least on the same page Im on....they dont have to think exactly like I do on the issue, but I dont want to be with someone thats the polar opposite of what I believe. Onesnowyowl's example is a good one with the vegetarian thing. I couldnt be in a relationship with an atheist but I could be with someone who was agnostic. I also dont mind someone of a different politcal party but I "prefer" someone who views government the same way I do.

If your belief's and moral compass are important to you then you'll not really want to "excuse" someone thats on the other side of the map from you

My personal line is drawn on the issue of respect. Everyone has a right to do what they want to do and believe and I wouldn't be able to date someone who was opposed to that freedom of choice. A difference of opinons is expected and can be worked with since compromise is an essential part of any relationship.

IMHO humanity's default setting is xenophobia. You don't really have "friends" until you're in kindergarten or later. It's all a part of discovering the greater world that exists beyond the individual, and some people never quite embrace that, which manifests itself in a number of ways. Racism, homophobia, misogyny and nationalism all have roots in it, although it's by no means the only cause.

Perhaps the friend had never been confronted with the realities of homosexuality before and didn't know how to react. Maybe she spends her weekends beating up gay people. I'd let her know that she probably needs to keep her views to herself since not all of her audience appreciates knowing her sentiments. I have some friends who are at least mildly racist, and when the subject comes up, I basically tell them that I think that they're wrong and that I really don't want to have to argue with them. I can't control what anyone else thinks, so I just do my best to live my life the best way I know how.

I would have to agree with Jwoody on the fact that if she continued to complain about it than I would have a problem. But personally, if it was one of a few topics that I find morally wrong then she would get the boot.

this sounds like the plot of a seinfeld episode... where the whiney brunette stated that she wouldnt ever date a person who wasn't pro choice - until she came across a guy she was really attracted to who was pro life... hilarity then ensued... or it tried to anyhow...

you have to pick your battles in any relationship and decide what's important to you... just recently, a person who's opinion i respect, pointed out to me that the reason why I haven't seen much activity on a personal ad I placed is because I placed my politics at pretty conservative... that is a deal breaker for a lot of people.

One my my boyfriend horror stories was a jewish guy I dated, who's family decided that I wasn't marriage material because of my own unwillingness to convert. The religion factor was a deal breaker...

I think it's a little hypocritical of a person to say, that a person isn't relationship worthy because of whatever conviction that they hold, but tehy are good enough to fuck...

I've spent too much time around racists and bigots, i'm not sure i could stomach being in a relationship with one... I'd have to say something... you can't change how a person thinks, if their thought process is based on life experience (I couldn't ever date someone who owned a Rottweiller... My head knows that some are very gentle l oving dogs, doesn't change the fact tha I had one jump a 6 foot fence and be the cause for a bunch of stitches in my arm - I'm terrified of them... ) People's life experience shapes who they are and how they think... Doesn't m ean I have to agree with them nor does it mean i have to spend time with them..

I would try not distance myself right away. What good would that do? I would try the enlighten approach and educate. When it comes down to it, bigotry is all about differences and how tolerant you are to those who differ from you. She obviously learned this reaction from home and therefore may be able to learn a "new response".



;)

I wonder if the reason conservative in your online add is a turn off isn't due to politics so much as to the concept that you won't put out until marriage it may imply. In my experiance, conservatives are even more 'freaky' sexually than most liberals (example, most swingers list themselves as conservative politically by 2-1) but if I read in a single womans profile she was conservative I'd still think 'frigid' despite me knowning better. Also a lot of people who think of themselves as liberal or moderate really are conservative, they just don't understand the labels very well. Personally I'd take it out of your add, not because you would be happy dating a moonbat but it would color some less politicially minded peoples opinion.

As for the Jewish thing I can sympathize, I had a friend who was east coast Jewish and the first question he would ask a girl was if she was Jewish, knowning his family would never accept anyone who wasn't. This was alien thinking to me, being its not so much an issue in the Chicago area.

I think the real message here, has nothing to do with bigots or morals, but attraction, and saying opposites attract is really a myth. You may love the LITTLE differences in your SO, but major ones are often hard to overcome.

I wish I would have recalled this last night when I posted, but a friend of mine is homosexual and after the 2004 election seemed to be really depressed and pissed off. Not because Bush won, he wasn't happy with that, but he is a realist, but because his long time cohabitation boyfriend turned out to be a Republican. In their three year relationship politics never really came up (note it started after the 2000 election) and it really blindsided him. It was never a part of their relationship for 3 years, it never was an issue, yet just the thought was enough to make him question the relationship. He did get over it, but I think his boyfriend said he just won't vote the next election or something like that.

So while you may have flings with people well outside your mindset, having a long term relationship of mutual respect with such people is quite difficult.

I think the difference is her fervor against it. I know gay people, I've had gay friends, my wife has gay uncles. I don't care. I don't, however, enjoy watching men kiss each other. I do, however, LOVE seeing women kiss each other. Does this make me a bad person? Of course not! I'm 100% tolerant of it. If she had made a passing comment like "Blech!" and let it be... I don't see that as wrong or biggoted at all. But the fact that she went on and on about it... that might push the envelope. How do you draw the line of someone being intolerant? If Jen's uncles were here for the holidays and gave each other a New Year's Kiss... good for them. I'm not saying DON'T do it... it doesn't mean I have to like it... just that I have to not be a dick about it. So I guess I'd have to have been there to agree she's a biggot. Maybe she is, maybe it was beer talking. Who knows?!

Depending on the issue(s), I probably wouldn't date them, but I'd still consider being their friend, because perhaps they could learn tolerance (as illustrated in this particular case) from me. Would they be intolerant of my tolerance? *That* would be a full-on deal breaker for me.

I think that it's not so much a person's already established viewpoints (versus morals) that could affect my attitude towards them, but their willingness to explore those viewpoints and their willingness to change them, if offered a compelling arguement. I think *that* is more an indication of morals/values.

I myself have grown and changed over the years, thanks to people who didn't write me off because I wasn't already like them. I was raised *VERY* conservatively, and I'm very grateful to the more enlightened people in my life who gave me the chance to learn from them.

I think that's one of the reasons I enjoy TFP so much. There are many different opinions here, and as long as they are communicated with respect, there is a place for them, and room for debate, input, and change. :)

:lol: .... i'll have to get back to you on that :)

sweetpea

It depends on what specifically was the moral bone of contention. I certainly wouldn't date a bigot like the one described in the OP. But I wouldn't mind terribly with some issues, say, a person being against abortion.

What you've just described are our nation's political parties. This is not the same as being physically disgusted by something.

'nuff said? hardly.

The habit of forming negative opinions of people based on negative opinions they themselves have is a very easy one to fall in to. But it serves no real purpose and allows no room for growth. They came to those opinions somehow, just as you came to yours.

Regarding the OP, perhaps it could turn into an interesting discussion sometime down the road, instead of immediately judging her for something she said. Anything else would seem, to me, to be a bit hypocritical. And I really don't think that being physically disgusted with homosexuality and voicing it is quite the same as bigotry.

I disagree. By its very nature, a relationship needs to have some foundation. All a fuck session needs is tab A and slot B.

still waiting for your requested definition...

So again to ask, what is YOUR definition of bigotry?

By what I can glean from your statements, the quintissential bigot Archie Bunker from All in the Family you'd not consider him to be a bigot.

Well, you certainly took a leap there. You come to conclusions in a very hop, skip and jump sort of way. We'll call it "selective gleaming."

Archie Bunker, who was a fictional character, was written to be a bigot. The writers did a very convincing job. He was very "bigotesque." For you to assume that I view him as otherwise is to assume that my viewpoint is skewed from reality because of my statement on homosexuality.

People commonly jump to assumptions such as yours, and I think that is the primary problem. It is the same thing the girl in the OP is being accused of.

Look, for the record, I find homosexuality to be disgusting. It actually grosses me out. In it, I can see no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Having said that, I'll say this: One of my closest friends recently let me know that he is gay. Was I shocked? No. Suprised? Yes. Do I still find homosexuality disgusting? Yes. Am I dissapointed in my friend? Of course not. Am I disgusted by him? Of course not. The fact that he has sexual relations with men disgusts me, but HE doesn't disgust me. He is not an act, he is a person. And I love him like a brother. Who he fucks will never change that. And me being disgusted by homosexuality sure as heck doesn't make me an Archie Bunker.



Two posters have posted the meaning of bigotry according to their repective dictionaries. I don't have "My Own" private meaning of the word stashed away anywhere. It's definition is printed above your post for everyone to read.

So you tell me, how is being disgusted - or, for that matter, voicing disgust - amount to bigotry?

Is bigotry a thought crime, or does one have to act?

Haha. That is hilarious, but also a very interesting question. We often churn things over in our own mind for weeks, months and years before we form strong opinions. Thoughts are continuously changing. Others see something and comment on it immediately, sometimes regretting it later. But it has already been said, and people have already heard it. And opinions have already been formed regarding you and what you said. Someone, somewhere, thinks you're a bigot! Because of something you said at a bar.

[QUOTE]well, what i meant by enough said, was that per dictionary definition, again:
"big·ot (bĭg'ət)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.",

What you describe of this individual is actually bigotry in this society.
It doesn't affect this individual, she doesn't have to participate, however, she states that it disgusts her? She's going out of her way to express intolerance, that is bigotry from my perspective.

No room for growth? Who said i had a negative opinion of people who's views i don't share? i never said that...There are plently of things that people do and think that i do not agree with on any level, but it is their right and freedom to do so, but what i was pointing out was that i don't go out of my way to express my 'disgust' over their views, it doesn't affect me what they do and think.... but as to the OP, i also woudn't make that person a romantic interest, but i don't have a negative opinion of them.

I didn't 'come' to any opinion, so i'm not sure what you mean...

The only 'opinion' i've come to is that i am tolerant of other's choices and decisions about their lives..... i believe that is called tolerance... not an opinion.


Well, i would consider that bigotry... going out of one's way to be intolerant and actually feeling phsycially disgusted? :confused: That seems like a lot of work to me... much easier to be tolerant, then i don't have to get 'physically disgusted' every time i disagree with something :)



thanks,

sweetpea

There is a difference between not agreeing with homosexuality and being intolerant. On one hand you can disagree but live and let live... on the other hand you disagree and also seek to stop it.

I think this is where the disagreement above stems from.


The problem is, it is a very fine line. Your position on homosexuals verges upon but doesn't seem to cross the line of intolerance (EDIT: though I agree with Sweetpea that spouting your point of view is not the most tolerant of acts). Many people who express a point of view such as yours *are* intolerant. It isn't a difficult conclusion to reach.



Ustwo, you don't need to act on your bigotry for it to be bigotry. You can be a hermit and still be a bigot.

Thank you for clarifying... i see where you are coming from now.

I guess the thing is... many people, who express disgust such as yourself... do not also have the ability to be friends or even civil with the people they disagree with... and actually seek to hurt them. There is a fine line.


thanks,

sweetpea