Firearm for you woman (OR your "smaller significant other")
 

All,

My S.O. is a 5 foot, 95lb cute little thing (meaning she's unlikely to overpower anyone, except maybe with her cutness :D). She lives in a secluded apartment complex which has had some break ins and armed robberies in the last year. Luckily, she lives on the 4th floor, so a break in is unlikely. Regardless, we're long distance, and I'd sleep better at night if she had a firearm of some sort next to her bed. I figure I'd get her pepper spray first, but, that's a boring thread.

I have always wanted to get my women in to firearms, but, for the most part, women find the loud noises and recoil to be too much for them. I figure I'd get her something she'd be familiar with and not afraid to use, as opposed to some ass kicking one-shot-stop-monster that she's scared of.

At first I was thinking, Walther P22, but she told me she shot the GSG-5 before and liked it. Which made me think, M&P15-22? But then, I thought...if I'm going to use a M&P15-22, why not a AR15 with a .22LR ciener conversion kit, that way, if/when she's ready we can graduate on to .223 rounds.

Anyway, here's the question I pose:

What type of firearms do you usually find suitable for your S.O.?

Couple of Super Important Things I've Learned (TM) regarding the purchase of firearms for creatures with breastestes:

A: Give her the same gun that female cops carry (G19, AR-15, etc.), don't give her something ridiculous that you wouldn't use. There is no difference between the sexes as far as guns are concerned. Do not give a woman a .25 or a .32, anything that she likes because it is "cute, tiny, pretty," etc. Make her use what you use at first. If next year she decides that can handle a .38 J-frame for concealed carry, you know she's got a solid background with firearm fundamentals. If you want to get the S&W dedicated .22 AR, that would be an awesome choice for both of you to train on (you can do tactical .22 classes later) and she can use any of your dozen high speed ARs later with minimal training. This is assuming her biceps aren't made of spaghetti.

B: Immediately send her to have another person train her, she'll never listen to you the same way she'll listen to some ex cop. Ever seen that frustrated he's-on-delta-force-but-she's-new-to-shooting couple at the range? I've made the mistake of doing this before. Avoid it. Pay for her to take an intro safety class and half a dozen trips to the range and a "tactical" pistol class if she's doing CCW. Big point here is: Don't try to train someone you fuck.

C: The debate over starting with a .22 versus a full size pistol/rifle is endless. The .22 pistol/rifle will never get old, though. While you might just start with a Walter P22 or a Ruger 10/22 (both excellent choices), if you're moving toward concealed carry, you already have the guns she'll need to train on (G19, for example). Get her trained up on those before you buy her one of her own. And, ya know, make sure shooting isn't just a fad with her.

D: Tell her to pick up her nuts and deal with the recoil/noise. Nothing you're giving her to shoot (See A) is going to hurt her. Also make sure that she doesn't dress like a girly-girl when you go to the range. My last three girlfriends have burns between their tits from hot brass. Not fun for them.

I'm a female.
I've always wanted to get into firearms and grew up in a family where both my dad and my brother hunt and shoot on a semi regular basis.

my reason for not pursuing so far is that many complexes where I live, it is illegal to possess a firearm according to your lease contract. That, and I love learning new skills and I have watched my dad and brother build up their collections - guns are not a cheap hobby.

I would say that Plan9 is right on about letting someone else train. Even if Telekinetic tried to train me, I still probably wouldn't take him as serious as someone I feel isn't making assumptions based on what they know about me.

I am pretty sure this has been discussed here before at some length.

But to sum up my point of view (though it has likely changed some):

I am not about to dictate what to get your girlfriend, and I don't know her particular circumstances and quirks, but I would recommend you think long and hard before getting her a long gun of any kind, and consider the realities of her level of training, disposition, strength, etc.

I say this with hesitation because there are plenty of country girls out there who can lay waste with a shotgun....but most girls who are not used to firearms are intimidated by them and/or unlikely to employ them in an effective manner. They are large and will likely get tucked away in the back of the closet and forgotten about...even when someone does try to break in. Because they are large and long they are hard to employ from anything other than a standing position (think cowering in a corner). They are also harder to pick up and carry from room to room when you girlfriend is feeling scared or is worried that something is about to happen.

I am, of course, colored by the preferences of my wife. She is perfectly capable of shooting a long gun, but she just isn't comfortable using one. She will leave the shotgun in the safe and grab a pistol when she thinks something is wrong.

A revolver may be a good choice, but many women (and yours sounds on the small side) lack the hand-size or strength to comfortably pull the trigger.

Modern automatics offer easier trigger-pull and a shorter reach at the expense of complexity.



If you decide to get her a pistol, make sure she will be able to safely operate it, and that it is a well-known brand (Glock, Sig, S&W, etc) with a good reputation. Let her personal preference decide the particulars. If she isn't going to carry it around, then consider getting her a full sized pistol: it will recoil less and will hold more rounds.

For Caliber I would recommend staying away from the teensy tinsy chamberings as well as anything large. I personally think 9mm is a good 'sweet spot' for most people. A full sized pistol in 9mm or 38 spc. will have mild recoil and resonable effectiveness. It is mild enough and light enough that a good instructor should be able to teach her how to shoot it without much trouble.

Remember that if she is not a gun person *any* added complexity may screw her up. I took my wife to the range a while back and put her bedside pistol on the bench ready to go, prepped the same way she kept it beside the bed. She tried and failed to fire it until she realized the safety was still on....That would have caused disaster in a self-defense situation because she would have never slowed down to troubleshoot. The safety is now kept off so all she has to do is point and squeeze. Likewise, I don't expect her to conduct reloads, etc.



I think a 22 is the best way to learn... but if you are only going to buy one gun and it is going to be used for defense, I think a more substantial (but still mild) caliber is the better compromise.

Also, after a basic firearms class, sign her up for a concealed carry class. It will teach her a lot of the basics regarding the use of deadly force as well as some basic techniques. If you look around you can usually find firearms class taught by and for women.

1: Yes. Find somebody else to train her, preferably another woman.

2: Best to start with .22s, but just for long enough that the lady understands that it won't hurt her and that she has the power/control. The Walther P-22 is great for this, in part because...

3: ...Walther makes an -awesome- little critter called the PK380. Yes, it's a .380, and more power is always better. But .380 gets you about 90% of a 9mm, and this weapon is designed for women's use. The slide has a light spring, and the controls are dead simple, so even a lady with small or weak hands can operate it easily. It's also full-sized, therefore more comfortable in the hand and easier to control.

4: Lots of women prefer revolvers. Fewer controls, easy to operate and load. Make sure whatever weapon she picks has a trigger she can pull fairly easily. S&W, Taurus, and Ruger all make superb self-defense revolvers, Charter Arms is also a good bet. If she can tolerate the weight, Taurus's "Public Defender" version of the Judge would be hard to beat, especially with Winchester and Federal now loading high-performance defensive .410 ammo. It's basically a legal sawn-off shotgun with minimal recoil and horrendous effects up close, esp. with Winchester's PDX-1 ammo. Lightweight "Cowboy Action" LRN loads of the .45LC, of course, are a secondary option for this weapon.

5: Don't buy her pink anything. Every woman I've ever seen someone try to sell a pink gun to has threatened them with it. This goes also for blue, purple, or any other other than Black or Silver.

6: If you/she decide on a Micro/pocket pistol, avoid the baby .380s. Most women find the recoil of a pocket .380 unpleasantly sharp, and will avoid practicing with it. If she wants a micro, go for the P32. With the extended mag and 10rds of hollowpoints, .32 will mess a BG's day up pretty good, but she'll need to practice: this really is a case where "more holes are better holes."

7: Don't try to pressure her to shoot a full-sized, full-power weapon right off the bat. You might also wish to avoid 9mm and up-gun to .40: most of my female customers detest the 9mm and frankly so do I. The recoil impulse is very sharp and snappy, much less comfortable (and less controllable, for smaller ladies) than the slower shove of the .40 or .45. This needs to be a weapon that's comfortable in her hands, that she will be able/willing to practice with, that'll get the job done. If all she can stand is a P-22, fine: load it up with Stingers and practice dumping all 10rds into the upper chest and head. Not my first choice, but better than nothing. Which leads us to...

8: Avoid the .25ACP. Most useless calibre in the world. Routinely bounces off people's foreheads, and no I'm not exaggerating here. If a smallbore is all she can handle, stick with the .22LR and something suitably zippy (Stingers, Maxi-Mags, etc). From there step up to a .32ACP or .32H&R, and from there to the full-sized (.380+) loads if possible.

YMMV: check out the other smart folks on this thread as well. I'm just the Gunshop Guy, and let's face it: I haven't had a girlfriend living with me since George W. Bush was still choking on his pretzels. I may not be the best guy to make recommendations specific to your situation, but I do know what sells well to women and what types of weapons they tend to prefer and why.

This is so upsetting that I can't even think .. :mad:

The Bearded God (TM) and The Gun-Shop-Guy have spoken. I am truly humbled.

I first considered the M&P15-22 because it had 3 points of contact, and would soak up recoil a little better. When I was 10 y/o and shooting our Jennings .22LR, I could remember being intimidated by the recoil of the .22pistol. But, I suppose a larger carbine probably will end up sitting in some closet somewhere not getting any use.

Regardless, since my woman is not in to firearms, I think a .22LR pistol to show that she can control the gun, and that guns aren't too scary will be what I'll wean her on. If and when she feels comfortable with firearms, I'll introduce her to the 'stronger' calibers and see if she can't attend a shooting course. She lives near Ocala, FL, so I'm sure classes will be plentiful.

Kirstang, has your lady friend expressed any fear of firearms? or is she just
'not into them' as you say.

@ Dunedan: I do not understand your advice about having another 'woman' train her?

Many years ago (female me) used to have a dreadful fear at the sight of a handgun.
My older cousin decided one day to help me overcome this fear.
He used a nice old Marlin .22 rifle for his thorough gun safety lesson.

After plinking safely with the .22 rifle for awhile, I graduated to the handguns.

That's one idea.

P.S. I don't have small hands. I've never had any trouble with the most ragged jumpy of recoils. ( except for the nuisance factor) Your lady friend does have tiny hands, yes?

As Mr. Dunedan says: "but I do know what sells well to women and what types of weapons they tend to prefer and why."

I suppose this advice would also be helpful for men that have small hands.

Most women are, in my experience, much more comfortable being trained by a woman. Male teachers tend to make newbie women shooters nervous, and will frequently make idiots of themselves by either trying to flirt with the learner or create such an environment that the lady in question -thinks- she's being flirted with.

Instructing women brings out a lot of guys' Asshole Macho Must Impress To Get Laid Syndrome, and it can be very off-putting for the lady. That kind of thing can be distracting, and you do -not- need a distracted newbie waving a firearm around.

Some dudes are good at training women; I certainly try to be. But there's so much macho bullshit out there in the Gun Culture that it can be a real problem. Better safe than sorry, is all.

I 'spose that could work both ways.
Some women might also not take the training seriously & act all flirty & stupid too.

I've been fortunate to have teachers that were at least well trained enough not to blush
& stammer or lose their cool when they had to kinda put their arms around me to correct a position or stance.
I bet a good part of that was my attitude as well. "All Business & no funny business,
I'm here to learn."
Well, that and the heavy duty breast flattening sports bra was a factor also, maybe.
( nah, not really.)

Enlightening post, Dunedan. Thanks.

My uncle was an amazing trainer. He wasn't off putting, but maybe it was because he wasn't into nailing his niece.

It just depends on the guy I guess. Trapshooting is also a little different than what I assume the lady in question will be trained in.

I recommend this:

http://img.redwolfairsoft.com/upload...SG-HELLK-L.jpg

Ok...carry on with your serious conversation.

Hello Kitty 590? I approve.

But if you're gonna get the 590, at least get the one with the bayonet lug! The only thing more intimidating than a 12ga is a 12ga with 8" of razor-sharp steel hanging off the end!

Wow. As much as I like my 590, I grit my teeth every time I shoot full power loads through it. That junk beats up my shoulders. I don't think a petite woman starting out on firearms will be very fond of any shotgun. (Although it looks like the link is for a airsoft shottie).

Have you thought about a 20-gauge? I've often thought that a 20-gauge 870 or 500 with a Knoxx SpecOps stock might be just about the perfect combination of power and controllability for recoil-sensitive individuals.

I am a firm SpecOps believer--In 12-gauge, my 500 has VERY manageable recoil, even with 3" shells, buckshot, and slugs--I can't imagine how easy it would be mounted on a 20-gauge, and 24 pellets of .24 caliber #4 buckshot per trigger pull, in addition to the advantages of 3-point contact (and an adjustable LOP so you're guaranteed to get both of you a good fit) seem like an easy choice to me, particularly over other far more underpowered .22/.25/.32/.380 low-recoil options.

Devil's Advocate:

It doesn't matter how little the gun kicks if she's not big enough to handle it.

I've had problems getting my partners to shoulder an AK47 for more than five minutes at a time.

"It's too big and it's too heavy. I don't feel like I can concentrate on aiming it."

And a lot of good a pump shotgun will do her if she short strokes the slide.

Huh. Never had much experience shooting a 20gauge, much less one with a spec-ops knoxx stock.

Gun gods of the forum, what are your experiences with this set up? Does it recoil about as much as say, an AK47 (firm push, but nothing punishing)?

I'm not one of the gun gods, but I'll chime in:

Why use a 20 gauge? It's a specialty gun that doesn't offer anything that a more common gun can't already cover.

A properly loaded 12 gauge (2 3/4 "low recoil" or "buffered magnum" OO buck) is pretty much umpty-zillion times better.

And giving your 95 pound girlfriend a shotgun is probably about as effective as giving her a halberd.

Heh. Point taken. My bedside 12 gauge is loaded with managed recoil 00 buck. Back to the .22 it is. I'm really digging the pistol with hot .22LR loads idea for now. Maybe one day in the distant future we'll move up to 9mm and beyond.

In my experience, the Walther P22 functions better with hotter .22 LR loads anyway. I had a lot of wuss-outs with Federal big box.

I would stay away from a pump shotgun.

They are a GREAT choice for people who grew up around guns and are comfortable with them.

They are a horrible choice for a small woman who has no prior experience with firearms and is not likely to shoot it more than a couple times before it goes in the closet.

Pump shotguns are good because of their simplicity, but they require two hands and someone familiar enough to properly work the action, know what to do if they short stroke it, etc. Also, I think adding any sort of non-standard stock will just complicate the weapon and lesson it's #1 virtue: it's simplicity.

I have made my wife shoot my Mossberg with low recoil buckshot. No love. She is once again perfectly capable of handling the recoil, handling the weapon, etc. She just isn't comfortable with anything 'big'

Remember that your girlfriend is not like 'us.' Keep it stupid simple, easy to handle and don't go for the 'gun guy' flare. She isn't part of our culture and most likely won't get any benefit out of it.

Guys... I don't feel so goo... ARGH... MMUGAHHH... OOOOHHHGGGG!

*StrangeFamous rips out of my chest like The Alien*

...

Also: What the hell is up with the post-DADT super PC title of this thread? It's okay to call a man a bitch if he can't handle a gun.

They haven't outlawed testosterone yet.

If she lives near Ocala, there is a rifle range, not the best place to do "tactical" exercises but a great place just to go out and shoot. It is on hwy 50 I believe. Anyway, I take state road 19 north, go to the forest out near alexander springs, and hang a left at the red light. Its about 4 miles on the left after that light. Good place to shoot, as long as the Military isnt doing bombing runs. Just my 2 cents worth though.

I'll let the other's give good gun advice.

But don't underestimate 95lbs (95 really?!) Ive sparred with chicks way below my weight level that can truly deal some pain. I suggest getting her a metal spring baton. Aim for the throat or knees and he's down. I would still recommend a gun of course, but for less lethal options there are many....

Wait, what? If a 95 pound woman can't handle a firearm, what makes you think she can apply sufficient blunt force trauma using a manual weapon any better? Guns are easy... whether you're 95 pounds or 250 pounds, the 9mm jacketed hollow point round still does the same amount of damage.

Seeing that the law works the way it does, it is much easier for a woman to "get away" with using lethal force than it is a man. Go for the gold.

I don't understand the logic here.

Don't know why you have to pick apart all my posts...
but no logic. Just sating don't underestimate a small gal. Plus its always good to have options. Sometimes the problem person is too murky to be able to tell if one should use lethal force. With a baton, pepper spray, or taser she'd have a lot more options that might not involve the cops.

Anyways, go for a gun. I wasn't saying not too. Hence my sentence "I'll let the other's give good gun advice.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2856251#ixzz19HcF4AUK"

Brodawg, I'm not pick apart your posts specifically, I'm engaging in discussion on a discussion forum. You posted something I want to talk about.

Rules for defending yourself in your own home:

A - Identify the target.
Your first home defense purchase should be a bright flashlight, preferably a Surefire or equiv. Keep it by your bed. Check the batteries often.
B - Decide on a course of action.
Some advocate identifying the target and offering an ultimatum, "Get out or I'll shoot." Some advocate just blasting the burglar.
C - If you have to shoot, you shoot to kill.
"Yes, officer, I was afraid for my life." Don't attempt to wound somebody. If they survive, they may still try to kill you.

I can see the utility of using birdshot or "less than lethal" rounds (this topic has been back-'n-forthed on the Web for a decade), but my attitude on less lethal has changed in the last year. I have "less than lethal" rubber buckshot available, but all of my shotguns are loaded with Federal 00B.

I would never advocate using a hand to hand weapon for home defense. It's asinine. You lose every tactical advantage (distance, accuracy, lethality).

Anybody that says they're defending their home with a medieval weapon deserves a double tap.

Oh snap. I gifted all the kickass surefires I purchased during LAPG's awesome sale ($30 G2LEDs) to close family. Guess I'll have to keep my eyes peeled for another kickass Surefire.

Kirstang, even under the duress of waterboarding and having bamboo slivers driven up my fingernails, I would never tell someone that you need to buy more tactical gear or that you don't have item _X_. Please tell me you have at least four GI Joe flashlights in your apartment at this moment.

LMAO. Oh you keep embarrassing me.

Rt/Hwy 50 AKA Lee Highway? I would avoid any school/range located on an avenue of defeat and surrender.

Dude, I was cleaning out my basement and found 10+ GI canteens. All of which had names other than my own sharpied on them. There's no shame in appropriating gear.

---------------------------

The Knoxx set up sucks a mile of cock. It does nothing to mitigate recoil. The comb rides so high that it requires mashing ones cheek down in to the comb to get a true sight picture. The end result is akin to taking a Mike Tyson shot to the teeth ("tooth" in the case of our souther brothers).

I owe you a six pack for that one.

I must have totally missed that one! :confused:
But hey I guess thats what I get for not spending hours on here and taking part in every single discussion.
I was just trying to be helpful, and suggest a safe modern place for her to go train.

Walt was kidding.

Gotcha! No worries, just didnt make sense is all.

It makes sense if you remember that Robert E. Lee was on the losing side.

Then again, explaining jokes instantly renders them unfunny. Which is my lot in life anyway.

It was funny before I got here, Walt. Sorry.

No I understand that Lee was on the loosing side, but what I am confused about is the refernce to hwy 50 being called Lee's Highway. How those two are connected is where I am confused.

Many parts of Highway/Route 50 and Interstate 70 are also known as (or AKA) Lee Highway. This is because these modern highways oftentimes overlap routes that Confederate General Robert E. Lee and his soldiers took on their way to and from major battles of the Civil War.

Tried the link and it gave me a 404 error. Now that I know that I get the joke and it makes sense. I had never heard of that road being referred to as Lee's Highway! Learn something knew everyday!:thumbsup:

Well, to put my money where my mouth is:

Walt recently helped me shop for the new pistol for the wife. I ended up walking away with a S&W Airlite in .357.

Time will tell the wisdom of my decision, and I will keep you guys posted. I am already much more comfortable with her ability to handle the revolver than an automatic. It took her all of 10 seconds to understand the intricacies of loading/unloading, pulling the trigger.

I have not yet been able to get her to the range (it is hard when you have an infant) to shoot this pistol, but she handles revolvers just fine. I am not, however, going to load .357 rounds for her. I have a couple boxes of standard velocity ..38 special and some .38 +p loads for her to try. If she can comfortably handle the recoil then I will load the +p's for her. When I carry it will likely have .357, though that is dependent on my ability to handle that cartridge in such a light pistol (I have only test-fired it with standard .38's so far).

Good luck with that, bro. I've got a S&W 60 (j-frame, all steel gun) in .357 and that thing sucks. Hand-biter.