kutulu

jaymoney:

Do you know anything about how much revenue comes in to the small market teams? I'm guessing 'no'

jaymoney

Maybe you should re read the post the first paragraph was for gluccilvr claim that boston only spends to beat the yankees and the second paragraph clearly states that a cap will ruin the sport. I don't see where anything in them proved wat ever you were tring to say. And if I'm not mistaken all these poor small market teams get a check from all the big market team esspeacily from the yankees and boston and if that team choose to pocket the cash that's to bad for there fan base. And I don't. Care what market you re in if you put a a great team team with superstars the fans will pay to see them play and win. Example the yankees sellout evey venue the visit. Your fans come out to see the star studded yankees instead of that minor league team some owners put out there

---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:20 PM ----------

Let me guess you do

First off they are in a business so most teams will post a profit I imagin there in this business to make money and if they can t then that's a poorly run business. And if they don't well poor rich guy

The yankees have report loss and still invest to make the team better now granted they have a market that granties money but what they have to Down grade to make every one happy. I'm pretty sure that everyone here tring to slam them team would spend as much as they do to get a star no body would be complaining

djtestudo

1) How big is that check each team gets?

2) How much do the Yankees make from YES and other media not covered by MLB rules that is NOT reported as part of their income and allows them to claim a loss on their ticket/concession/small cut of national MLB media income?

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

jaymoney

I get what you are saying but is that the yankees fault that they make money to me that sounds like a jealous rant. And I get that most teams can't spend like the yankees but all teams can reach the 100 million dollar salary . But how many stay under that how teams are 40 million to 80 million dollar payroll. Yeah the yanks are in class of there own but they also went 9 years with out winning a world series and mis the playoff so its not like having the highest payroll assures you ring. Only advantage the yanks have is they can afford to make mistakes

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

To ans your question the check starts at 35 million and works it way down all I know is that the teams with the less revenue get about 35 million for examble the marlins get the max work your way down from there

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 PM ----------

To ans your question the check starts at 35 million and works it way down all I know is that the teams with the less revenue get about 35 million for examble the marlins get the max work your way down from there

djtestudo

Where are you getting that information on the check?

How does the MLB luxury tax work? - Yahoo! Answers

This season, the Yankees had a $201.5 million payroll. They would be taxed 40% on every dollar over $162 million.

$201.5 million
- 162 million
$39.5 million

40% of $39.5 million is $15.8 million.

They were the only team over the threshold in 2009, 2008 AND 2007. So how does each team receive $35 million in revenue sharing?

You might mean the revenue from all national media rights, but all teams, including the Yankees, get a cut of that.

I also am curious how you KNOW every team CAN make a $100 million payroll. Especially when under what you suggest owners have to spend their own fortunes to cover expenses, and even billionaires would run low on cash at some point.

Honestly, no one truly knows, or can know whether an owner is or isn't pocketing money or spending it out of their own cash. MLB teams are not required to open their books to the public; anything that is made public has been throughly cooked to say whatever MLB wants them to say.

(As an aside, a little trivia to the members at-large: there is one team in the four major American sports leagues that has to release their financial information publicly every year. Can anyone say which team and why?)

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

ok let's look at the Indians.... 1,766,242 in attendance this past year. Average ticket price 22.12. that comes to 39,069,273.04 made this season in tickets (let's say they get all of that.. even tho they don't because they pay the visiting team a percentage of the gate). Now the radio and tv bring in reportedly around 10 million, concessions may bring in around 25 million, and MLB revenue sharing let's give them another 25 mill to make it easy for the math.

So let's say they make $100 million. Now, they have to pay for the motels, airfare, food expenses for the team, the front office, trainers, coaches, the manager, scouts, minor league team salaries, advertising, stadium lease, utilities, and miscellaneous items like equipment, their Spring Training, signing the draftees and so on.

Now, keep in mind the more you spend on scouts and your minors the better players you produce so that ain't cheap. Hotels and travel... you need to treat these players like royalty so chartered planes and 1st class hotels.

Let's say that costs them $15 million all together. So that leaves you roughly 85 million to pay 24 players (or roughly 3.5 million per player). You pay someone 15 million a year and that's 2 minor leaguers at close to minimum you have to play and if you pay a couple 8-10 million there's more minor leaguers you have. Then you hope the players you are paying those salaries to actually perform and make the team competitive so that attendance can go up, concessions can go up and thus revenue comes in. If they don't perform and/or attendance doesn't increase then you are in serious trouble.

Now, let's say they can sell out Every game 48,000 @ 22.12/ticket that increases your income to 86 million in attendance + concessions you reach the 100 million mark then the other 35 million... let's say you make 150 million but you have to maintain a winning team to keep that. That means more spent in salaries. 150mill/24 players = 6.25 million per player. But the marquee players command more to play in Cleveland than they will in NY/Boston... so you may spend 25 million on a CC but that's 4 player's salaries so then you face having to play 3 minor leaguers around minimum. That's hardly being able to field a competitive team.

That's small market. Plus you add in a bad economy so people can't spend that much for games they have to cut their spending on concessions and souvenirs... there's no way you can keep up.

That's why teams are going broke. They can't afford to compete and fans don't nor can't spend money to go to a stadium where the team doesn't have a chance... so attendance goes down... income goes down, salaries have to go down....and the teams downward spiral speeds up.

So some of these teams fielding big money players at 4-5 positions are walking thin lines. It's easy to see how there can be quite a few teams close to total bankruptcy and having an inability to make payroll.

That's baseball 101, Jaymoney. Every team faces that except the Yankees and Boston. Philly has a good run right now, but even they have their limits. Do you really believe they wanted to get rid of Cliff Lee? Hell no, that would have been arguably the best 1-2 combo in baseball since Maddux/Glavine. The Phils just could not afford that and keep their offense and defensive players. And you need offense/defense to draw in fans and compete. Enough offense to guarantee runs will be scored and a strong defense to keep errors down and help the pitching look good.

I believe, we're going to start seeing more players moved every year from city to city than in the past. This will not be good for baseball.

But, let as you say the fat cat owners lose money year after year after year... even tho they can't afford to field a competitive team, in your opinion, they are just being cheap. How, long would you want to lose millions? How many years are you going to chase bad money with good?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

MLB last year transferred about $400M in revenue sharing and luxury tax, and the Indians received more than $20M while the Pirates -- "despite their beautiful, eight-year-old, taxpayer-funded stadium" -- received more than $40M. thats of the top of my head

all MLB teams received $35M from the league's "central fund, which includes revenue from licensing, properties, national TV and advanced media." Thus, the Indians prior to this season had about $55M in revenue and an $81M opening-day payroll, a deficit of just $25M "before they sold one ticket. In addition, all MLB teams received $35M from the league's "central fund, which includes revenue from licensing, properties, national TV and advanced media."

The Pirates had earned $75M and had a $48M payroll, a profit of about $27M before ticket sales.

Indians and Pirates owners are "not willing to spend what it takes to be competitive." They instead are collecting "all that revenue-sharing and central fund dough and claim they're losing money, meaning they must trade away their best players to 'secure the future'

---------- Post added at 02:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 AM ----------

yet the yankees are the evil empire if so then what will you label the indians and pirates (THE FAT CATS)

---------- Post added at 02:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:54 AM ----------

thats base ball 101 face the facts PAN dont give me fantasy numbers look it up

pan6467

I think if you look at the percentage of ticket sales that goes to MLB and the visiting team it equals about what I gave them. I gave them 100% of ticket sales, when in reality it's about 60-65%. Last I heard, visiting teams got like 25% of the gate and MLB got 10%. Also, I was very generous in my concession sales (because a percentage goes to the stadium and the company licensed to run the concessions). Same with media revenue, a portion of the local revenue goes to MLB.

I'll stand by my numbers. Because I even showed what they have for payroll when they bring in $150 million.

You totally ignored their OTHER expenses. Payroll is probably 75% (and that's generous) because along with all the ones I listed in my past post, there is still the loan to the bank the owner has to pay, taxes, insurance on the players and so on.

And if you watch MLB when teams are for sale, it's not like 20 years ago or even 10, where you could have many groups trying to buy.... very few are willing to buy a team these days. Why? If there is such a great profit to be made, as you want to believe, would someone not want to buy? Even cities are backing away from trying to get teams.

BTW DJ the team needing to show its books are the Packers because they are city owned and non profit, I believe.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

The_Jazz

I think your guess has been confirmed.

jaymoney, you're chosing to ignore some very important numbers. Pan's done a pretty good job of laying some of those out for you, and I'll just add there there are more, like front office salaries, facilities rental, insurance on the whole operation (including on star players, coverage for equipment and buildings and liability), legal fees, equipment rental, advertising and medical costs. Every single team has those costs, and my best guess is that just the ones I've listed run close to $10M.

My wife and kids are very friendly with the in house counsel for the Cubs (they live in our neighborhood). I'll probably be at their house on New Year's Day, and I think I may print out this thread for him and get his opinion. He's the kind of guy that will love something like this.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Glory's Sun

oh.. well if you're gonna show him this thread..

FUCK THE CUBS. YOU'LL NEVER WIN!

djtestudo

Where are those quotes from? Did you make them up or do you have a source?

Considering both myself and Pan did the math and you are just throwing out random numbers without citation, why should they be valid? You need to show us where they came from, since right now it looks impossible for both of ours to be accurate.

And Pan, you are correct. It's actually that they are a public corporation with stockholders (mostly the fanbase in Wisconsin), but it means that they have to comply with the same laws as any other publicly-owned business.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

2009 attendance figures

MLB Attendance - Major League Baseball Attendance - ESPN

http://teammarketing.com.ismmedia.co...20FCI%2009.pdf

2009 average ticket price, concession prices and how mush a family of 4 would spend on average, but doesn't include Dollar dog night, dollar Pepsi nights, (which are promotions like fireworks which are again another expense). Let's say the FCI is right. So we divide attendance by 4 multiply that number by the FCI and we still get the Indians making before ANY OTHER expense 80 Million at the gate.

Let's say MLB doubles that and they made 160 million before ANY OTHER expense. With 24 players on the team they have 6.6 mill to spend on players... AGAIN before any other expense is taken out.

Jaymoney man, show me where you get your info.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

the source is bill madden. and the math ya did is bogus cause ya guessed the numbers sorry that wont do.

and the sharing of the ticket sales at the gates cancel it self out becuase they make that money back when they are the visiting team so its pointless to even mention it in fact A small market team benefits from that system. im pretty sure when the indians visit fenway or yankee stadium the 25% they rececieve is lot bigger then the one they give. and in pans math he didn't add what the league gives which is 35 million to all teams apart from the luxury tax. from 2007 - present 27 out of the 30 teams reported profits thats fucking great if u ask me oh and one of the teams that reported a loss was yankees. but i probly made that up too.

and that ten percent the league takes is what goes to fund the 400 million dollar pot they use to help the FAT CATS.

and as far as selling a team if they were so desprate to sell an the buyers are so scarce why was Mark Cuban denied?

Correct me if im wrong but BaseBall is the most profitable sport at the moment.

---------- Post added at 01:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

The packers are own by the city?

---------- Post added at 01:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------

The Business Of Baseball - Forbes.com
Who profits from revenue sharing? - SFGate.com

pan6467

And where exactly are your numbers? The attendance figures, local revenue, etc? Hell, I even brought in the FCI. But where are your numbers?

I was probably generous with my figures. I did give revenue sharing.

The sole reason the Yankess "lost" money or showed a loss is because of their new stadium. By showing a "Loss", they get breaks on the revenue sharing and tax cap because of it.

Well, if the teams are all financially sound, why would they need that fund?

Because MLB like the NFL want quiet owners that do not draw major press scrutiny. Cuban is a jerk, a showman and a publicity fuck. MLB doesn't want that as an owner. I don't blame them. Plus, he may not have had the funding, he may not have wanted to show his net worth... there are many, many factors besides being able to buy a team that figure into MLB. The wrong owner may affect their Anti-trust, may make a mockery of the game. The last "Cubanesque" owners they had were Charlie Finley and Ted Turner. Finley was quite possibly one of the worst owners ever. Ted Turner made his team a mockery until MLB told him to shut up or lose the franchise (much like they did to Marge Schott). The only thing that saved his ass was merging with Time/Warner.

Cuban is a joke. I don't see any MLB owners doing WWE in the near future.

They also play the most games. Per event, NASCAR and the NFL have far more attendance. By merchandise sales, the NFL out ranks everyone but the Yankees. NASCAR dwarfs every MLB team in merchandise sales except for the Yankees. So, no I seriously doubt MLB is the most profitable.

But as for net worth every NFL team is worth more than every MLB team except the Yankees. The NFL and NBA are more profitable per team for the owner than MLB. That right there should say something about salary caps.

The NFL was a floundering fish and was no where near MLB popularity until the NFL put in a true sal cap and revenue sharing program.

http://www.plunkettresearch.com/Indu...3/Default.aspx

The NFL plays 10x's fewer games and has 250+ million more in operating funds.

The average value of an NFL team is 1 billion dollars... the average value of an MLB team is 482 million and the NBA is fast catching up.

You take out the Yankees value and MLB probably falls under the NBA.

MLB is hurting, they are bleeding badly. To argue that these owners are making millions while the commissioner tells us there are a few struggling to just make payroll and that MLB has to prop some of them up and give emergency funding to is just out in left field.

http://www.plunkettresearch.com/Indu...3/Default.aspx

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

So you saying that baseball owners don't make money even though 27 out of 30 reported a profit
That's what you tring to say

djtestudo

Uh, no I didn't. I linked where I got the luxury tax thresholds from, and I got the payroll numbers here, here and here.

You still haven't linked your source. You say they came from "Bill Madden"; well, in a column? Radio/TV interview? Other source?

Where is the 10% coming from?

Are those things on the bottom supposed to be links?

You really aren't helping your argument at all here.

---------- Post added at 04:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:55 PM ----------

Ok, I'm saying you're making everything up now until you provide your sources like others have. And "I got them from Bill Madden" doesn't count.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

Show me a link that says that 27 teams showed profit. I'm sure some did. That's what you do in business, hopefully, is make profit. But I have a feeling these profits you talk of do not show the loans the owners have to pay.

Now, I will not disagree there are a few teams that when you add their attendance and the figures like I did for the Indians, the owners pocketed quite a nice sum. That may be one or 2. The rest are probably showing a profit that would not pay a premier player's salary. Plus, as the team spirals downward, attendance drops to where last year's profit has to be put into this year's operating funds. (Money for a rainy day, so to speak.)

If you show me a link where every one of these 27 teams made more than 10 million in profit, I'll reconsider my stance.

I used to believe it was owners not wanting to eat into their profits, but then I started to look at the numbers and did the math and most team (especially small market) have very little wiggle room and can't afford 100 million dollar salaries.

So, yes, I guess until you show me a link, I am saying MLB owners in small and some mid markets show minimal profit at best and that while 1 or 2 may field cheap ass teams to make money, the vast majority field what they can afford. Unfortunately, fielding what they can afford keeps them from truly fielding competitive teams year in and year out.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

I forget you guys anint from NY. bill madden is a sports writer here in the city. like i said do the research google yahoo what ever type bill madden and luxury tax and the colum will appear dont act like you dont know how and i imganine if it says .com its a website you can go visit

The_Jazz

Wow, what an incredibly lazy response. If you want to convince people, you need to actually do the work to do so. Expecting anyone else to do it for you basically sends the message that you don't believe in what you're saying.

Which means that I, for one, pretty much reject your argument out of hand.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

jaymoney

yeah yeah yeah i told him where to look. i copied and pasted some quotes from the article so read all the threads before you have something to say

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 PM ----------

Forbes Magazine has released it’s annual report on the baseball business.

The Reds’ operating income for 2008 was $17 million dollars, which was 15th in baseball for last season.

The Florida Marlins led baseball with profits of $43 million and the Washington Nationals were second with $42.6 million. The Detroit Tigers lost $26.3 million and the Yankees lost $3.7 million. They were the only two teams to lose money for 2008.

As for the value of the teams, the Yankees are still first, with a value of $1.5 billion, followed by the Mets at $912 million and the Red Sox. The Reds’ franchise was valued at 25th in baseball, at $342 million. The most profitable team in baseball last year, the Marlins, had the lowest team value at $277 million.

The Reds’ team increased in value by 2% in 2008; MLB overall increased by 1%. As for debt to value ratio, the Reds have a debt/value ratio of 12%, which is 6th lowest in baseball. The Yankees debt/value ratio is 95%, including their new stadium debt. The three teams whose value increased the most last year were the Yankees, the Mets, and the Rays. They all had double digit growth.

The Reds team can be found here. Robert Castellini purchased the team for $270 million in 2006 and the team is now worth $342 million. The highest Reds operating income for a season was $23 million in 2005 and they made $22 million in 2007. They’ve dropped the last two seasons as player expenses have risen. Player expenses were $93 million for 2008 (the Forbes charts have different years listed than the story).

Forbes does say the Reds risk their team value declining in 2009 due to a big push by the team to increase their premium seating revenue during the recession. The story says the Reds made a big push for big ticket sales, which can’t be supported by their sponsorship and television revenue if the tickets aren’t purchased.


Forbes Magazine Baseball Report | Redleg Nation

MLB has not released the 2009 numbers now of course there profits went down this years as for the country being broke

---------- Post added at 09:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------

profit is profit be $1 OR 100 MILLION DOLLARS POINT IS THEY MAKE MONEY so stop with pity for these FAT CATS. if you want to win invest .
spend money to make money scare money lets you watch october baseball from your couch

pan6467

You're right I googled "Bill Madden" and found 827,000 matches. Now exactly which match am I supposed to go to?

Very easy solution, just show me a reliable source to your claim "27 teams showed profit". I've done all my work for my argument. Did the math so you wouldn't, posted the links, so.... again all I ask for is one link to the source you have.

Looking at the Forbes article all I really see is the magazine valuing teams.

Operating income is not profit.

And yes, $1 or 100 million in profit is profit. But from what you are saying, even if a team makes only 5 million in profit, they should still go out and spend more than they can ever dream of making to field a competitive team. That by making any profit the owners are proving they don't want to win.

I still see no sense to that argument.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

djtestudo

When a baseball player costs less than $400,000 a year, this will no longer be a dumb statement.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

pan6467

First that is a blog, second I did go to the Forbes article, I went through a few teams and never saw mention of "profit". I saw "operating Income" which IS NOT profit.

A measure of a company's earning power from ongoing operations, equal to earnings before deduction of interest payments and income taxes.

Forbes may be good at many things but they are estimates at best.

Somehow, I seriously doubt the Yankees lost money or the Marlins owner made a 43 million dollar profit.

I'm sorry I tend to believe Selig when he says teams are on the cusp of bankruptcy and close to not making payroll.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

jaymoney

Truth hurts I guess, Ok I guess they also make up there numbers and only yours are to be considered the truth in that let's just agree to disagree cause we both not going to convince one another.

The_Jazz

jaymoney, thanks for the articles. If you're going to make these arguements, we expect your "A" game. Any thing less and the membership stops taking you seriously, both in this thread and out on the rest of the board.

I read the Forbes articles linked in the blog post, and I'm pretty sure that you didn't. If you had, you'd recognize that there's a major difference between "operating income" and "profit". All the line items that are added together to create "operating income" are positive numbers. There are significant negative numbers (the money the organization pays out) in the formula for "profit". Here's the definition of "operating income" that Forbes uses:

What's not included? Well, #3 is going to be a huge negative number for most franchises, especially if they've changed hands in the last few years.

For those of you who want to read the whole report, here it is:

Baseball's Most Valuable Teams - Forbes.com

jaymoney, you're using VERY specific accounting terms to describe an accounting issue. Are you sure you're know enough about the meaning of the words you're using to make your argument? You're confusing two things - profit and operating income - and they're very different things. You started out talking about profit and seem to assume that operating income is synonymous with profit. It's not.

As far as the truth hurting, well, once you figure out what argument you really want to make, you let us know. For now, I'll just keep pointing to the numbers and the definitions of the terms used to arrive at those numbers and ask you which parts you need explained to you.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

pan6467

No, as far as the numbers go, since none of the teams open their books everything's a guess. I'd say the numbers probably lie somewhere in between.

The point is, there aren't many teams that can support a 100 million dollar payroll and that is going to go up because players are always going to want more. Most cities can't raise ticket prices beyond the fan base's means. So, that revenue is pretty much set. The disparity in the league is getting worse. When a team like the Indians has to trade away 2 Cy Young winners because they can't afford to keep them, something is wrong with the system.

I just don't believe it's the owner trying to make money so he won't pay the players. If the Indians were financially able to keep C C and Lee, not to mention Martinez, they would have been able to field a very competitive team, which would have increased attendance, merchandise sales, concessions and so on. They would have made far more money. Economic reality, they could not pay either. This means attendance goes down, merchandise sales go down, concession sales go down. Thus, they don't make as much and every year gets worse.

Given the above paragraph, me personally, can see that baseball must be in serious trouble. You see it differently. And I agree, neither of us will change the others mind.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Glory's Sun

so can I start a new thread about the wheelings and dealings of the trade market and team news?

I'm a bit bored with all of this big spenders vs. non spenders argument.

djtestudo

You're right. So on that note, I offer Milton Bradley's ad to the Cubs fans...

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Glory's Sun

Pot meet Kettle.


OH GOD! I DIDN'T MEAN THAT IN A RACIST WAY!

pan6467

To think he was once a highly regarded "5 tool player" for the Indians. I'd call the guy a nutjob but as I am an admitted nutjob that would be an insult to us. Someone please kick him out of baseball once and for all and put him in a cracker factory... damn is that racist??? I didn't mean it to be. Put him in mental asylum.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

djtestudo

The Cubs signed Marlon Byrd to a three-year, $15 million deal. And as commenter Goose1701 said on Fark.com to tie things in with the above...

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Glory's Sun

I'm still kind of in shock about Bay going to the Mets. I guess he's not interested in winning a championship, he's only concerned about a little extra cash.

canuckguy

New to sports are we? Kidding! it is always about the cash...well not always but most times!

I don't begrudge the players one bit for taking advantage of the system. Just makes me look up even more to the players who take discounts and do other things to try and win versus taking the most cash available.

Not to put this on the topic of big market/small again but I just don't understand why people say the system is unfair. I still think it comes back to the owners and what there willing to invest.

Boston and New York were never always big power houses, it only started after they each had owners who were willing to invest. Is Boston not smaller market wise than Texas? Boston is good because they're willing to invest in there team, spend money to make money.

I don't see why teams like Arizona or Chicago can't invest more...oh wait they each have owners (corporations?) that are brutal that's why. You need some rich dude who wants to live vicariously through his sports team. See Mr Jones in Dallas, Mark Cuban, that Henry dude in Boston.

djtestudo

New York didn't win all those World Series' before 1973?

Boston didn't make big signings in the years before John Henry?

It's easy to say that there is no issue because New York and Boston have owners willing to spend. It's much smarter to say that they are willing to spend because they have so much money coming in that there is very little risk in spending on players; a bad contract is a nuisance, whereas to most other teams it is an albatross.

(And by the way, do you really want to go with Boston being a smaller market than Dallas? You might want to do some research, preferably on something other than city-limit population.)

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

canuckguy

I just went based on population size, not sure what figures go into calculating market size to be honest. Don't people create there own markets anyway?

Is Chicago not bigger than Boston? why can't the cubs or the white soxs spend serious cash? The cubs are not that far behind the redsox's in out of market fans i think. And the redsox nation was only born out of success i believe so why can't another team of similar market share do the same thing? or is NY and Boston the two biggest markets for anything (sports/commerce) in America?

I think the owner is just a big a part as the city you play in. Teams have to earn the fans, do it and your market becomes redsox's nation where you have fans all across the world who have never even been to fenway.

Again I am hardcore Blue jays fan, i just can't begrudge the other teams for spending. I would hate it to be like hockey where everyone is the same, I like rooting against he evil empire!

Glory's Sun

You have to look at income per household a well as advertising revenues when you focus on market data. New York is a media mecca and Boston isn't far behind, Chicago isn't far behind either, but without doing any research, I would guess that Chicago has a larger poverty rate than Boston..

djtestudo

You know the completely unique advantage Boston has to get those fans spread all around, right?

The Boston area has one of the highest concentrations of colleges and universities in the country, if not the world. Many of those are colleges that draw from all around the country and the world.

This has led to some very fortunate circumstances: the 1967 Impossible Dream season right as the first waves of Baby Boomers were attending college, for example.

Those people then spread back around the country as Sox fans, and raise families as Sox fans.

That's part of why Boston gets placed up with the Yankees though their market ends up on a similar level with Chicago and Los Angeles and Philadelphia. They have that fan base spread all over the place.

It can happen to other teams to a certain extent (there's a few people around the country who grew up as Orioles fans simply because they were a popular team in the late-60s and 70s), but not to the level Boston can because of that simple quirk of culture and geography.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

djtestudo

Matt Holliday resigns with St. Louis. Jason Bay finalizes with the Mets. Adrian Beltre goes short-term with Boston.

Hot Stove is over. Time for the long six weeks until the four greatest words in the English language, if not every tongue in the whole of the Universe.

Pitchers and catchers report.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Glory's Sun

I kinda figured Holliday would end up in St. Louis again.. he even took a pay cut to stay.

Not fond of the Beltre move for Boston.. might be better than Lowell, but Beltre was injured too. Should have went for a first basemen and let Youk play 3rd.