CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JBX · 09-10-2004, 05:04 AM

They so wanted it to be true. Burned again.

CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent.

Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York.

ABC NEWS:
False Documentation?
Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service

Sept. 9, 2004 — Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.

Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.

"The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.

Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind."

Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said.

"We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member."

Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television."

Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th."

Experts Question Veracity

Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter.
The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available.

More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

"These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.
The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 05:13 AM

They aren't faked. The admin already indirectly admitted to them being real.

HERE

Quote:

(CBS/AP) Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos that say President Bush's National Guard commander believed Mr. Bush was shirking his duties.

The memos, which were obtained by CBS News' 60 Minutes, say Mr. Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer and lost his status as a Guard pilot because he failed to meet military performance standards and undergo a required physical exam.

The network defended the autheniticity of the memos, saying its experts who examined the memos concluded they were authentic documents produced by Lt. Col. Jerry Killian.

But Killian's son, one of Killian's fellow officers and an independent document examiner questioned the memos.

Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father and retired as a captain in 1991, said he doubted his father would have written an unsigned memo which said there was pressure to "sugar coat" Mr. Bush's performance review.

"It just wouldn't happen," he said. "No officer in his right mind would write a memo like that."

The personnel chief in Killian's unit at the time also said he believes the documents are fake.

"They looked to me like forgeries," said Rufus Martin. "I don't think Killian would do that, and I knew him for 17 years." Killian died in 1984.

Independent document examiner Sandra Ramsey Lines said the memos looked like they had been produced on a computer using Microsoft Word software. Lines, a document expert and fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, pointed to a superscript — a smaller, raised "th" in "111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron" — as evidence indicating forgery.

Microsoft Word automatically inserts superscripts in the same style as the two on the memos obtained by CBS, she said.

"I'm virtually certain these were computer generated," Lines said after reviewing copies of the documents at her office in Paradise Valley, Ariz. She produced a nearly identical document using her computer's Microsoft Word software.

In the Wednesday broadcast, 60 Minutes said the memos were "documents we are told were taken from Col. Killian's personal file. The program says it consulted a handwriting analyst and document expert who believes the material is authentic.

"As is standard practice at CBS News, the documents in the 60 Minutes report were thoroughly examined and their authenticity vouched for by independent experts," CBS News said in a statement. "As importantly, 60 Minutes also interviewed close associates of Colonel Jerry Killian. They confirm that the documents reflect his opinions and actions at the time."

The White House distributed the four memos from 1972 and 1973 after obtaining them from CBS News. The White House did not question their accuracy.

Robert Strong was a friend and colleague of Killian who ran the Texas Air National Guard administrative office in the Vietnam era. Strong, now a college professor, also believes the documents are genuine.

"They are compatible with the way business was done at the time. They are compatible with the man that I remember Jerry Killian being," says Strong. "I don't see anything in the documents that is discordant with what were the times, what was the situation and what were the people involved."

The documents were described in a 60 Minutes that featured a retired Texas politician's claim that he pulled strings to get young Mr. Bush, then a college graduate at the height of the Vietnam War in 1968, into the Guard — a posting that made service overseas unlikely.

Former Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes — then the 29-year-old speaker of the Texas House — told CBS News Anchor Dan Rather that he used influence on Mr. Bush's behalf at the request of a Houston businessman friendly with the Bush family, oilman Sid Adger.

Mr. Bush has denied he received special treatment. The White House ascribed Barnes' remarks to political motives. Barnes is an adviser to Democratic presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry.

The president's service record emerged as an issue during the 2000 race and again this winter. The Killian documents revived the issue of Mr. Bush's time in uniform after weeks in which Kerry, a decorated Vietnam combat veteran, has faced questions over his record as a Navy officer and an anti-war protester.

In May 1968, Mr. Bush signed a six-year commitment to fly for the Air Guard. Mr. Bush was honorably discharged from the Guard in October 1973 and left the Air Force Reserves in May 1974.

Early in his military career, Mr. Bush received glowing evaluations from Killian, who called Lt. Bush "an exceptionally fine young officer and pilot" who "performed in an outstanding manner."

Documents released this week show Mr. Bush with scores of 88 on an airmanship test, 98 on aviation physiology and 100 on navigational abilities.

The questions about Mr. Bush's service center on how Mr. Bush got into the Guard and whether he fulfilled his duties during a period from mid-1972 to mid-1973.

After taking his last flight in April 1972, Mr. Bush went for six months without showing up for any training drills.

That May, Mr. Bush skipped a required yearly medical examination. In response, his commanders grounded him on Aug. 1, 1972.

In September 1972 he received permission to transfer to the Alabama unit so he could work on a political campaign there.

What the Killian memos purported to show is that Mr. Bush defied a direct order to appear for the physical, that his performance as an officer was lacking in other ways and that Mr. Bush used family connections to try to quash any inquiry into his lapses.

In a separate revelation, the Boston Globe this week reported that Mr. Bush promised to sign up with a Boston-area unit when he left his Texas unit in 1973 to attend Harvard Business School. Mr. Bush never signed up with a Boston unit.

If you don't question their accuracy, that means you admit they are real. Why would the Admin circulate after being exposed, and not discredit them if they thought they might be fakes?

JBX · 09-10-2004, 05:21 AM

We'll see Superbelt...

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 05:24 AM

Let's say a document surfaces that says you... snorted coke at your dads office. You make copies and hand it out all over the place without comment.

Should others not assume that that document is real and verified by you?

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 05:34 AM

For those who have been working to discredit these documents.

The Times New Roman typeface that is shown has existed since 1931. It is decidedly different from Times New Roman of today, Especially when you view numericals.

the superscript TH did exist on many typrwriters back then as a shift combination. The 111th may well have wanted typewriters that had the "th" superscript I wonder why the 111th would want that?

Proportional spacing Oops! DID exist.

1966 IBM Selectric Composer Typewriter
Times New Roman, proportional spacing. One of many, including variants of other IBM's that would have been able to produce the document.

irateplatypus · 09-10-2004, 05:56 AM

i don't think anyone is arguing that that variety of typewriter didn't exist, i think the contention is that they were either prohibitively expensive for widespread use and/or weren't used by the armed forces during that time. thus, making it unlikely that such a typewriter would make it into a remote national guard office with a small budget for such things.

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 05:59 AM

Odd that Dan Rather wouldn't do the same kind of interview for a Swift boat vet

Odd that Superbelt is so quick to dismiss the idea, despite that Pentagon thread

Odd that the man interviewed by Dan rather is a BIG time Kerry supporter

Odd that the same man said just the opposite in 1999

Odd that I'm using so many damn smillies

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 06:11 AM

For the font. Look at CBS's documents. Look at the "e's" They float above the baseline. That only happens with typewriters, not computers. The capital M and J's also do not match up with computer aided baselines.

The times new roman on the typewriter is close but DOES NOT MATCH Microsofts version of it.

The IBM Selectric has the open 4 that is in the memos, Microsoft's 4, does not.

The EXISTANCE of the IBM selectric, while expensive, proves that the documents very well can be real.

Proof that the Airforce used selectrics at the time

Quote:

A Service Test was completed for the International Business Machines (IBM) "Selectric" typewriter and Magnetic Tape "Selectric" Composer.

Another reference to selectrics in the ANG

Quote:

At the time of the AFSCOASO's birth, creating printed matter on paper was called typing. If you were really fortunate, your office had an IBM Selectric and plenty of correction ribbon.

If any of you worked in government, like I do, you know that you should NEVER have extra money at the end of the fiscal year. If you do you are in danger of having your budget cut. So, you come to the end with enough money to spend, and you go buy some fancy typewriters to fill our your budget. Not hard to imagine.

^Ice_Bat^ · 09-10-2004, 06:31 AM

Oh I just love how this stupidity will never seem to go away. Bush's national guard service was already questioned earlier in this race, and those accusations were discredited. The news media would so love John Kerry to be elected, that they are ready and willing to buy into this crap. I think it's stupid anyway to be resurfacing this. Bush has already shown himself to be a proven leader, was very strong, and demonstrated this further at the RNC. The public won't really care much anyway at this point. It's debate time. This is where the focus is going to lie, and what'll convince those 7 or so percent that are undecided.

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 06:31 AM

Plane not flying into Pentagon in some wierd Illuminati like plot *possible*

Someong forging a document (and there is more then just the typeface in question) *not possible*

That sum up your thinking Superbelt?

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Plane not flying into Pentagon in some wierd Illuminati like plot *possible*
correction: Plane not flying into Pentagon in some wierd set of events, Open to the possibility, though still highly skeptical of it. Admitted that I don't believe either set of events as both have holes in them.
But nice attempt at a deflection of the issue.

Someong forging a document (and there is more then just the typeface in question) *not possible*
correction: Showed that no general forgery using a word processing program could have produced that document because of a long dead variant of the typeface and floating baselines. Also showing that all technology was for many years already in place to create the document

That sum up your thinking Superbelt?

Not quite.

Scipio · 09-10-2004, 06:43 AM

I tend to think that they might be fake, but it really comes down to the sources and what CBS's internal investigation reveals. The evidence is pretty good that they were produced using microsoft word.

It's just odd that someone wouldn't go through the trouble to get a simple typewriter to do the job, if they are actually forgeries.

roachboy · 09-10-2004, 06:51 AM

this republican response, once again, smells of karl rove--it does not matter if they are fake or not, what matters is creating doubt, the possibility that they might be fake, which is in itself enough. the pattern will probably run out along the usual lines--the questions will get coverage, the eventual concession that this is all a smokescreen aimed at shielding cowboy george from his own fratboy past will come later and maybe end up on page 8 of most dailies.

for god sake, even conservatives know that rove is operating in this space--why are they not more informed of his m.o. and more suspicious of the results of that m.o.? does being conservative mean that you necessarily have to suspend disbelief when it comes to any and all claims that originate from conservative sources? quite a display of intellectual autonomy, if that is the case....real americans, one and all.

irateplatypus · 09-10-2004, 07:01 AM

i'm scared to open my closet at night because i'm afraid karl rove is hiding in there waiting to get me.

roachboy · 09-10-2004, 07:14 AM

rove is a pretty unassuming figure--nothing to be paranoid about---personally, i would love to meet him in a dark alley.

if you are thinking about the bushcampaign---and i assume that bushsupporters would think about the campaign rather than just functioning as mouthpieces for the content of the campaign----you have to think about rove.

unless you believe that cowboy george is running the show....which would be far more delegitimating than giving the vague impression of paranoia in a post is.

Lebell · 09-10-2004, 07:38 AM

Please watch the personal comments.

Rekna · 09-10-2004, 07:46 AM

I love how Bush can get away with calling anything that might look him bad a lie or liberal bias. But yet those swiftboat verterans can tell blatent lies and people believe them.

I think Bush has half this nation brainwashed and he used 9/11 to do it. He took advantage of 9/11 and played peoples fears. When 9/11 first happend no one could even so much as question the president without being called unpatriotic and lynched. And people wonder why Kerry flip/flopped on the war.

filtherton · 09-10-2004, 08:09 AM

Ironic, that a report questioning the veracity of another organization's fact checking would appear on drudge. I don't really care either way. It won't change my vote.
My prediction(pull out your tinfoil hats): This will just add fuel to the "liberal media" argument.

zandor45w · 09-10-2004, 08:16 AM

Apperantly the wife of the dead who supposedly wrote these notes was on the radio saying that her husband never learned to type and always wrote everything by hand. She also says that all his personal documents are in their basement at the house. She says that the signature on the paper doesn't even look correct.

I smell something very fishy

roachboy · 09-10-2004, 08:26 AM

i would maintain that most of the fish smell emanates from karl rove.
this could be a really damaging set of documents given the way bushworld is being spun---instant dissolution of all the very military claims that are the center of such appeal as bush has.

on this, gil scott-heron's classic later song "b movie" sems all too prescient.
i would recommend having a listen,if you dont know the track--it is about ronald reagan, but much of it applies to bush as well.
(presto macho...)

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 08:35 AM

And the son is saying they are his. But he isn't sure of the CYA document.

Lebell · 09-10-2004, 08:50 AM

That Karl Rove has powers we don't even suspect

jb2000 · 09-10-2004, 08:57 AM

Again, the truth is lost in the maelstrom of political voleyball. There is enough to give the Kerry and Bush supporters each further evidence that the other side is playing dirty pool and further galvanize them behind their candidates.

I personally don't care whether or not someone served in Vietnam. I respect those who did and think that the actions of Kerry, McCain, and others speaks positively about their character. I don't hold it against Clinton, Bush, and others who dodged involvement though. I do think it is dissappointing when one isn't forthright about the path they took, though, whichever it was.

I don't support Kerry because he was in 'Nam, and I don't oppose Bush because he didn't. There are many I support who didn't go, and many I don't who did. I support Kerry because of where I want to see this country go and do over the next four years, and Kerry is a lot more aligned with my views in that regard.

And that is what I think an election should come down to: the next four years, not the last forty. Record is valuable in gauging what a candidate is capable of, and what their tendencies are, but it shouldn't be all consuming.

roachboy · 09-10-2004, 08:57 AM

the only power rove has is that he exploits the fact that lots of perfectly nice folk assume that they are not being lied to, and then lie to them.

the only power rove has follows from the fact that you believe.

Scipio · 09-10-2004, 09:08 AM

I wouldn't put it past karl rove. I really mean that. Rove's the guy who bugged his own office, and then insinuated that the other campaign did it. As he said then (and I paraphrase) "I don't know who planted the bug (or forged the documents), but really, who stands to gain from it?"

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 09:16 AM

Democrats look stupid and its Karl Rove's fault.

Its never their own fault.

pan6467 · 09-10-2004, 09:38 AM

All this started with a Dredge report. Surprised Faux News hasn't been airing it all day. Well, maybe they have. I would believe Dan Rather telling us the sky is green before I believed a word out of Dredge's mouth. Sorry folks but Dredge DOES have an agenda and his accuracy is that of throwing darts at a dartboard some 300 yards away against the wind, in a heavy fog on a dark night.

If the records are fake I am sure that will come to surface, if not and they are proven accurate, I wonder where dredge's appology will be. Probably the same place every GOP right winged kook's is, there won't be one because he won't be able to admit to being wrong.

Now let's look at ABC.... owned by Disney, in turmoil, have their own news problems and would probably love to see CBS's 60 Minutes gone. Also, ABC (owned by Disney) has a lot to lose if the Bush dynasty falls. First there are the Fla. tax breaks, secondly they own the rights to Limbaugh and I believe Dredge shows so...... and are primarily aired on CBS' owner Infinity radio's biggest competitor Clear Channel. Clear Channel has everything to gain by watching CBS and all go down in flames and nothing to lose, likewise, ABC/Disney.

Now let's look at CBS, owned by Viacom, which owns Infinity Radio. Along with Clear Channel they have gained very very much by this administrations laxidaisical care over media conglomerates. Viacom has been able to buy CBS and keep the UPN network, while Stern may argue differently, the battles with the FCC gave him new life.

irateplatypus · 09-10-2004, 09:53 AM

pan, i've got to say it... it really looks like you're grasping for straws already. that's quite a long line of ulterior motives. do you perform a similar exegesis on every news controversy? if so, that must be exhausting.

the silver lining of the issue is that perhaps for once we can have some empirical evidence as to the veracity of these political charges. hopefully the truth of the matter will be decided by research and forensics and not decided along party affiliation. i think that would be a breath of fresh air to us all.

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 10:11 AM

You want a wacky theory which has been tossed around since the start of the primaries?

Who has the most to gain from the democrats and Kerry failing besides GWB?

Hilary Clinton.

Whos people just took over the Kerry campaign?

Clinton's

Who would have the easiest time getting 'forged' documents to seem real to the likes of Dan Rather?

Clinton's people.

The American spectator said the documents went from the DNC to Kerry's campaign to CBS.

Who's people control the DNC?

Clinton's

I find this more plausable then Karl Rove somehow getting the democrats to take this hook line and sinker.

EDIT: When you type 80 wpm its best to be able to proof reading.

crthiel · 09-10-2004, 10:11 AM

RATHER DIGS IN: THE DOCUMENTS ARE AUTHENTIC

CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather publicly defended his reporting Friday morning after questions were raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos aired on CBS which asserted that George W. Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard.

CNN TRANSCRIPT:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: I know that this story is true. I believe that the witnesses and the documents are authentic. We wouldn't have gone to air if they would not have been. There isn't going to be -- there's no -- what you're saying apology?

QUESTION: Apology or any kind of retraction or...

RATHER: Not even discussed, nor should it be. I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don't like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story, which I just gave you earlier.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CBS NEWS executives on Thursday launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

jb2000 · 09-10-2004, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

the silver lining of the issue is that perhaps for once we can have some empirical evidence as to the veracity of these political charges. hopefully the truth of the matter will be decided by research and forensics and not decided along party affiliation. i think that would be a breath of fresh air to us all.

I share the hope, but doubt that it will be the reality. Every day I have people tell me that they wish that Kerry/Bush would talk more about their plans for office, but every day I see Kerry/Bush talk about just that. The media doesn't want to waste valuable space with an old man droning on about the details of a Medicare plan or the intricacies of foreign relations. It is much more scintillating to put up Swift Boat Vets and Fired Administration Officials smearing all kinds of allegations across the airwaves, and talking heads to play badminton with the hot potato of the moment.

The people of this nation have to take responsibility for their government. The mainstream media has invalidated itself as a worthy source of objective analysis. This isn't some tin-hat thing, and I don't believe the media is in some pocket and being used for some big conspiracy. Certain outlets certainly are, but that is to be expected. No, it is merely the reality of corporate media.

Personally, I make my decision almost entirely on the basis of what I personally hear the candidates say, what I feel they are likely to achieve if elected, and how well those are aligned with my personal views. If a candidate shares my positions and is likely to achieve what I consider to be positive actions in office, I support them.

Do candidates lie? Sure, but at least it is direct from their mouth, not a lie turned over, disected, spun, and painted before delivery. It is up to me as a voter to analyze the statements of the candidates and determine their accuracy and how they affect my vote.

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 10:39 AM

http://www.iht.com/articles/538218.html

Quote:

Philip Bouffard, a forensic document specialist from Ohio who created a commonly used database of at least 3,000 old type fonts, said he had suspicions as well. "I found nothing like this in any of my typewriter specimens," said Bouffard, a Democrat. He also said the fonts were "certainly consistent with what I see in Times Roman," the commonly used Microsoft Word font.
.
However, Bouffard said, a colleague had called his attention to similarities between the font in the memos and that of the IBM Selectric Composer of the early 1970s. He said there did in fact appear to be similarities and he was checking further.
.
But he said it would be unusual for Bush's commanding officer to have had the IBM machine because of its large size. Bouffard said that he would see on Friday if the fonts matched more closely.

pan6467 · 09-10-2004, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

pan, i've got to say it... it really looks like you're grasping for straws already. that's quite a long line of ulterior motives. do you perform a similar exegesis on every news controversy? if so, that must be exhausting.

the silver lining of the issue is that perhaps for once we can have some empirical evidence as to the veracity of these political charges. hopefully the truth of the matter will be decided by research and forensics and not decided along party affiliation. i think that would be a breath of fresh air to us all.

Not grasping at straws just stating I don't trust a word out of Dredge's mouth and gave a reason as to why other media sources would like to see CBS's rep hurt.

When you look at what companies will do to each other to further their profit margin or the corporate espionage (and the media is no different, if not worse, because he who controls the media controls the opinions of the majority) it is a possibility.

I didn't say I was speaking fact, just gave a purpose as to why the CBS attack.

Look around the media is cutting each other's throats, much like the hatred that abounds in the partisan politics we have. To believe that there is no ulterior motive behind one news agency calling another's into question is IMO, blind. That's all I was doing was questioning who had the most to gain by just putting out this rumor. To which I gave a very feasible answer.

I didn't say conspiracy, I didn't say it was fact. I laid an opinion and a scenario out that could be a very plausible possibility. If we have become a nation that is so blind as to not consider plausible possibilities or allow another to give an opinion without labelling them a conspiracy nut or saying they are grasping at straws then we are doomed to eventually no individual thinking and we shall face the loss of our freedom of speech, because noone will exercise it. We'll be either too scared of what others may think of us, or we may just believe that our opinion and our questions don't matter. And to me that is the worst thing we can allow to happen. Questioning and opinions are what allows mankind to better itself and progress as freewilled individuals.

OpieCunningham · 09-10-2004, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Odd that Dan Rather wouldn't do the same kind of interview for a Swift boat vet

Not really. This issue is one of documentary evidence that supports it. The SBVT issue is one of hearsay vs. documentary evidence that denounces it. In other words, the difference between having a leg to stand on and not.

Quote:

Odd that the man interviewed by Dan rather is a BIG time Kerry supporter

And Dan Bartlett is... ?

Quote:

Odd that the same man said just the opposite in 1999

Not really considering he repeated what he said in 1999 which is the same thing Bush thanked him for saying in 1999 - that someone other than a Bush family member asked him to help lil' Bush into the National Guard.

But you know what is odd ...

- If the documents are fake, why has the Bush crew spent so much time defending themselves on merit instead of questioning the docs if they knew the documents didn't accurately reflect the events which took place?

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 12:21 PM

Opie - Partisan glasses make you blind. What I like about my liberal friends is they are honnest about this sort of thing. I have a friend who is a homosexual lawyer who worked for Jim Jeffords after he left the Republican party. Hes joking about the whole thing, thinks Kerry is sunk in general, thinks the liberal media is great, but he doesn't try to pretend people like Dan Rather are unbaised.

OpieCunningham · 09-10-2004, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Opie - Partisan glasses make you blind.

You know, ustwo - you can keep repeating that nonsense whenever anyone points out the failures of your own logic, but repetition ain't gonna make it come true.

ShaniFaye · 09-10-2004, 12:39 PM

Well its not just dredge....its been all over Fox news today too

Ustwo · 09-10-2004, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

Well its not just dredge....its been all over Fox news today too

Its on several places, Yahoo, MSNBC had a piece and CNNonline had one too. Drudge just links.

jb2000 · 09-10-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Opie - Partisan glasses make you blind. What I like about my liberal friends is they are honnest about this sort of thing. I have a friend who is a homosexual lawyer who worked for Jim Jeffords after he left the Republican party. Hes joking about the whole thing, thinks Kerry is sunk in general, thinks the liberal media is great, but he doesn't try to pretend people like Dan Rather are unbaised.

Ustwo, generally both conservatives and liberals love it when those of the opposite ilk confirm or play to their stereotypes and/or suspicions of that other side. I'm not exempt on this count.

Is Dan Rather unbiased? Probably not. I doubt anyone truly is, but bias does not prevent objectivity. It is not a liberal or conservative media, it is a corporate media. There are liberal and conservative individuals at various stations in the media, but I have a strong belief in the reality of the market which drives me to believe the market has a lot more to do with the decision making than either left or right wing ideologies.

By the way, your signature quote ('Conservative by 35') is incorrectly attributed to Churchill, one of many quotes thus misattributed. There is no evidence that he ever either said this or would have. Visit the Churchill Center for more info: http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/...cfm?pageid=388

roachboy · 09-10-2004, 12:52 PM

you act like rather writes his own scripts, ustwo, which is naieve.
and how come it is only other people who have partisan blinkers on, never you? do you really think that it is only the far right that controls "the objective"--if you do, there is really no helping you...the position is laughable.

what you cannot acknowledge is the basic features of the campaign being run for your boy bush. if you cannot even acknowledge the tactics, which are evident to all, well-known, documented, then there is really nothing to talk about with you.

09-10-2004, 05:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	CBSNEWS LAUNCHES INTERNAL INVESTIGATION AFTER SUSPICIOUS BUSH DOCS AIRED They so wanted it to be true. Burned again. CBS NEWS executives have launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday. The source, who asked not to be named, described CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather as being privately "shell-shocked" by the increasingly likelihood that the documents in question were fraudulent. Rather, who anchored the segment presenting new information on the president's military service, will personally correct the record on-air, if need be, the source explained from New York. ABC NEWS: False Documentation? Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service Sept. 9, 2004 — Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War. Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real. "The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words." First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them. Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind." Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said. "We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member." Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television." Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th." Experts Question Veracity Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter. The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available. More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity. "These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:" Among the points Flynn and other experts noted: The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard. The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters. The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters. The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters. The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers. The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

09-10-2004, 05:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
JBX Unfair and Imbalanced Location: Upstate, NY	We'll see Superbelt... __________________ "Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

09-10-2004, 05:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	For those who have been working to discredit these documents. The Times New Roman typeface that is shown has existed since 1931. It is decidedly different from Times New Roman of today, Especially when you view numericals. the superscript TH did exist on many typrwriters back then as a shift combination. The 111th may well have wanted typewriters that had the "th" superscript I wonder why the 111th would want that? Proportional spacing Oops! DID exist. 1966 IBM Selectric Composer Typewriter Times New Roman, proportional spacing. One of many, including variants of other IBM's that would have been able to produce the document. Last edited by Superbelt; 09-10-2004 at 05:37 AM..

09-10-2004, 05:56 AM	#6 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i don't think anyone is arguing that that variety of typewriter didn't exist, i think the contention is that they were either prohibitively expensive for widespread use and/or weren't used by the armed forces during that time. thus, making it unlikely that such a typewriter would make it into a remote national guard office with a small budget for such things. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-10-2004, 05:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Odd that Dan Rather wouldn't do the same kind of interview for a Swift boat vet Odd that Superbelt is so quick to dismiss the idea, despite that Pentagon thread Odd that the man interviewed by Dan rather is a BIG time Kerry supporter Odd that the same man said just the opposite in 1999 Odd that I'm using so many damn smillies __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-10-2004, 05:24 AM	#4 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Let's say a document surfaces that says you... snorted coke at your dads office. You make copies and hand it out all over the place without comment. Should others not assume that that document is real and verified by you?

09-10-2004, 06:31 AM	#9 (permalink)
^Ice_Bat^ Insane Location: Southpark, Colorado	Oh I just love how this stupidity will never seem to go away. Bush's national guard service was already questioned earlier in this race, and those accusations were discredited. The news media would so love John Kerry to be elected, that they are ready and willing to buy into this crap. I think it's stupid anyway to be resurfacing this. Bush has already shown himself to be a proven leader, was very strong, and demonstrated this further at the RNC. The public won't really care much anyway at this point. It's debate time. This is where the focus is going to lie, and what'll convince those 7 or so percent that are undecided. __________________ If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic. - Jack Handy Last edited by ^Ice_Bat^; 09-10-2004 at 06:36 AM..

09-10-2004, 06:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Plane not flying into Pentagon in some wierd Illuminati like plot possible Someong forging a document (and there is more then just the typeface in question) not possible That sum up your thinking Superbelt? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-10-2004, 06:43 AM	#12 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	I tend to think that they might be fake, but it really comes down to the sources and what CBS's internal investigation reveals. The evidence is pretty good that they were produced using microsoft word. It's just odd that someone wouldn't go through the trouble to get a simple typewriter to do the job, if they are actually forgeries. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-10-2004, 06:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this republican response, once again, smells of karl rove--it does not matter if they are fake or not, what matters is creating doubt, the possibility that they might be fake, which is in itself enough. the pattern will probably run out along the usual lines--the questions will get coverage, the eventual concession that this is all a smokescreen aimed at shielding cowboy george from his own fratboy past will come later and maybe end up on page 8 of most dailies. for god sake, even conservatives know that rove is operating in this space--why are they not more informed of his m.o. and more suspicious of the results of that m.o.? does being conservative mean that you necessarily have to suspend disbelief when it comes to any and all claims that originate from conservative sources? quite a display of intellectual autonomy, if that is the case....real americans, one and all. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-10-2004, 07:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i'm scared to open my closet at night because i'm afraid karl rove is hiding in there waiting to get me. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-10-2004, 07:14 AM	#15 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	rove is a pretty unassuming figure--nothing to be paranoid about---personally, i would love to meet him in a dark alley. if you are thinking about the bushcampaign---and i assume that bushsupporters would think about the campaign rather than just functioning as mouthpieces for the content of the campaign----you have to think about rove. unless you believe that cowboy george is running the show....which would be far more delegitimating than giving the vague impression of paranoia in a post is. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-10-2004, 07:38 AM	#16 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Please watch the personal comments. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-10-2004, 07:46 AM	#17 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I love how Bush can get away with calling anything that might look him bad a lie or liberal bias. But yet those swiftboat verterans can tell blatent lies and people believe them. I think Bush has half this nation brainwashed and he used 9/11 to do it. He took advantage of 9/11 and played peoples fears. When 9/11 first happend no one could even so much as question the president without being called unpatriotic and lynched. And people wonder why Kerry flip/flopped on the war.

09-10-2004, 08:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Ironic, that a report questioning the veracity of another organization's fact checking would appear on drudge. I don't really care either way. It won't change my vote. My prediction(pull out your tinfoil hats): This will just add fuel to the "liberal media" argument.

09-10-2004, 08:16 AM	#19 (permalink)
zandor45w Upright	Apperantly the wife of the dead who supposedly wrote these notes was on the radio saying that her husband never learned to type and always wrote everything by hand. She also says that all his personal documents are in their basement at the house. She says that the signature on the paper doesn't even look correct. I smell something very fishy __________________ You're so cute, you thought your opinion mattered

09-10-2004, 08:26 AM	#20 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i would maintain that most of the fish smell emanates from karl rove. this could be a really damaging set of documents given the way bushworld is being spun---instant dissolution of all the very military claims that are the center of such appeal as bush has. on this, gil scott-heron's classic later song "b movie" sems all too prescient. i would recommend having a listen,if you dont know the track--it is about ronald reagan, but much of it applies to bush as well. (presto macho...) __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-10-2004, 08:35 AM	#21 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And the son is saying they are his. But he isn't sure of the CYA document.

09-10-2004, 08:50 AM	#22 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	That Karl Rove has powers we don't even suspect __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-10-2004, 08:57 AM	#23 (permalink)
jb2000 Crazy Location: Allen, TX	Again, the truth is lost in the maelstrom of political voleyball. There is enough to give the Kerry and Bush supporters each further evidence that the other side is playing dirty pool and further galvanize them behind their candidates. I personally don't care whether or not someone served in Vietnam. I respect those who did and think that the actions of Kerry, McCain, and others speaks positively about their character. I don't hold it against Clinton, Bush, and others who dodged involvement though. I do think it is dissappointing when one isn't forthright about the path they took, though, whichever it was. I don't support Kerry because he was in 'Nam, and I don't oppose Bush because he didn't. There are many I support who didn't go, and many I don't who did. I support Kerry because of where I want to see this country go and do over the next four years, and Kerry is a lot more aligned with my views in that regard. And that is what I think an election should come down to: the next four years, not the last forty. Record is valuable in gauging what a candidate is capable of, and what their tendencies are, but it shouldn't be all consuming.

09-10-2004, 08:57 AM	#24 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the only power rove has is that he exploits the fact that lots of perfectly nice folk assume that they are not being lied to, and then lie to them. the only power rove has follows from the fact that you believe. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-10-2004, 09:08 AM	#25 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	I wouldn't put it past karl rove. I really mean that. Rove's the guy who bugged his own office, and then insinuated that the other campaign did it. As he said then (and I paraphrase) "I don't know who planted the bug (or forged the documents), but really, who stands to gain from it?" __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-10-2004, 09:16 AM	#26 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Democrats look stupid and its Karl Rove's fault. Its never their own fault. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-10-2004, 09:38 AM	#27 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	All this started with a Dredge report. Surprised Faux News hasn't been airing it all day. Well, maybe they have. I would believe Dan Rather telling us the sky is green before I believed a word out of Dredge's mouth. Sorry folks but Dredge DOES have an agenda and his accuracy is that of throwing darts at a dartboard some 300 yards away against the wind, in a heavy fog on a dark night. If the records are fake I am sure that will come to surface, if not and they are proven accurate, I wonder where dredge's appology will be. Probably the same place every GOP right winged kook's is, there won't be one because he won't be able to admit to being wrong. Now let's look at ABC.... owned by Disney, in turmoil, have their own news problems and would probably love to see CBS's 60 Minutes gone. Also, ABC (owned by Disney) has a lot to lose if the Bush dynasty falls. First there are the Fla. tax breaks, secondly they own the rights to Limbaugh and I believe Dredge shows so...... and are primarily aired on CBS' owner Infinity radio's biggest competitor Clear Channel. Clear Channel has everything to gain by watching CBS and all go down in flames and nothing to lose, likewise, ABC/Disney. Now let's look at CBS, owned by Viacom, which owns Infinity Radio. Along with Clear Channel they have gained very very much by this administrations laxidaisical care over media conglomerates. Viacom has been able to buy CBS and keep the UPN network, while Stern may argue differently, the battles with the FCC gave him new life. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-10-2004, 09:53 AM	#28 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	pan, i've got to say it... it really looks like you're grasping for straws already. that's quite a long line of ulterior motives. do you perform a similar exegesis on every news controversy? if so, that must be exhausting. the silver lining of the issue is that perhaps for once we can have some empirical evidence as to the veracity of these political charges. hopefully the truth of the matter will be decided by research and forensics and not decided along party affiliation. i think that would be a breath of fresh air to us all. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-10-2004, 10:11 AM	#29 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	You want a wacky theory which has been tossed around since the start of the primaries? Who has the most to gain from the democrats and Kerry failing besides GWB? Hilary Clinton. Whos people just took over the Kerry campaign? Clinton's Who would have the easiest time getting 'forged' documents to seem real to the likes of Dan Rather? Clinton's people. The American spectator said the documents went from the DNC to Kerry's campaign to CBS. Who's people control the DNC? Clinton's I find this more plausable then Karl Rove somehow getting the democrats to take this hook line and sinker. EDIT: When you type 80 wpm its best to be able to proof reading. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 09-10-2004 at 10:53 AM..

09-10-2004, 10:11 AM	#30 (permalink)
crthiel Upright	RATHER DIGS IN: THE DOCUMENTS ARE AUTHENTIC CBSNEWS anchor and 60 MINUTES correspondent Dan Rather publicly defended his reporting Friday morning after questions were raised about the authenticity of newly unearthed memos aired on CBS which asserted that George W. Bush ignored a direct order from a superior officer in the Texas Air National Guard. CNN TRANSCRIPT: (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: I know that this story is true. I believe that the witnesses and the documents are authentic. We wouldn't have gone to air if they would not have been. There isn't going to be -- there's no -- what you're saying apology? QUESTION: Apology or any kind of retraction or... RATHER: Not even discussed, nor should it be. I want to make clear to you, I want to make clear to you if I have not made clear to you, that this story is true, and that more important questions than how we got the story, which is where those who don't like the story like to put the emphasis, the more important question is what are the answers to the questions raised in the story, which I just gave you earlier. (END VIDEO CLIP) CBS NEWS executives on Thursday launched an internal investigation into whether its premiere news program 60 MINUTES aired fabricated documents relating to Bush's National Guard service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. "The reputation and integrity of the entire news division is at stake, if we are in error, it will be corrected," a top CBS source explained late Thursday.

09-10-2004, 12:21 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Opie - Partisan glasses make you blind. What I like about my liberal friends is they are honnest about this sort of thing. I have a friend who is a homosexual lawyer who worked for Jim Jeffords after he left the Republican party. Hes joking about the whole thing, thinks Kerry is sunk in general, thinks the liberal media is great, but he doesn't try to pretend people like Dan Rather are unbaised. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-10-2004, 12:39 PM	#37 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Well its not just dredge....its been all over Fox news today too __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-10-2004, 12:52 PM	#40 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you act like rather writes his own scripts, ustwo, which is naieve. and how come it is only other people who have partisan blinkers on, never you? do you really think that it is only the far right that controls "the objective"--if you do, there is really no helping you...the position is laughable. what you cannot acknowledge is the basic features of the campaign being run for your boy bush. if you cannot even acknowledge the tactics, which are evident to all, well-known, documented, then there is really nothing to talk about with you. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite