mml

BINGO!!!!!

Thank you for saying that, because while it may not be what everyone wants to hear, it is, for better or for worse, the truth.

As far as suppressing your religious beliefs upon taking the Oval Office, that is absurd. Religion is part of what shapes each and every one of us(even if you have no religion, that is an influence). Just as the where and when we were raised, our education and life experiences influence who we are. Would you ask someone who deeply believed in a certain economic theory to suspend that theory when taking office just because it is not held by everyone? No, you would not. Religion is not inherently bad or good. It derives its worth or lack thereof, from its practice. This being said, aspirants to our hightest office, must not let religion DOMINATE their thought process and decision making, but like all of their life experiences it will have influence. All of our Presidents in modern times have been religious - and most used the term "God Bless America" in speeches. While I am not a huge Bush fan, this is not a topic I feel he should be criticized on - there are so many other and better points to bitch about.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
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Mojo_PeiPei

I think it was the whole United States that told Bush to go into Afganistan.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Johnny Rotten

According to the Moscow Times, Bush said God told him to attack al-Qaeda, then kill Saddam. I'd link to the article, but it was posted in full on the previous page of this thread.

Nizzle

Keep dreaming. Count me among those that did not.

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Nizzle

ObieX

Keep religion out of the government. Thats all i've gotta say.

I like the arguement from, i believe, "the ten commandments judge" or whoever in a part of a speach i saw on the news... : *This isnt about the commandments!.. or religion! .. This is about the belief in all-mighty God!!*

...........¿?¿???¿?!! I mean.. am i missing something here?? I dont think the concept is quite grasped.

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We Must Dissent.

Willy

Nice post.

Of course the president should keep his religion. The fact that anyone voted otherwise suprises me. The president has the right to freedom of religion just like anyone else. No one is suggesting that the president's relgion automatically becomes the de facto religion for the country, but the idea that you would have to change your religion to hold public office is directly opposed to the principles that this country was founded on, and downright scary if you ask me. Religion for most people is a very serious topic, and a truly religious person could not just switch religions while they were in office. At best they would just be lying about their religious beliefs because it was required by law.

Thagrastay

This is silly.
Where in the world in any of our governmental documents does it say that the President, or any elected official for that matter, has to be impartial while in office? What is wrong with you people? Go read your American history- this nation was FOUNDED on religious principles- specifically, Christian principles. On that, all the founding fathers agreed. Even Benjamin Franklin adhered to the idea that God must be present in our government in order for it to run efficiently.
We pl;ace our hands on the Bible when we swear to things. Our President place their hands on the Bible when they swear their oath of office. Religion is an integral part of the government of our nation and the persons who run it.
To ask that a President and our elected officials leave their beliefs at the door of their offices is inviting danger in a very big way: If they do not answer to their God, to whom do they answer? The founders of our country would not allow atheists to hold office for that very reason. They had no accountability internally to anyone other than themselves.
I thank God that George W Bush holds himself accountable to God. I wish more politicians did.

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

splck

I don't think people were asking your pres to throw away his religion while in office, but rather that he govern the country taking in mind that not everyone believes in god and that his actions should reflect that fact.
The way the shrub spouts off about god is troubling to some people.

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nice line eh?

Nitro

How true...
If that were the law then that would be discriminatory, wouldn't it?
But seriously, I can't see any reason why an atheist president would be worse than a christian or hindu or whatever president.
Being atheist means adhering to the faith that there is no higher power anywhere. It does not mean having no morals, not sticking to what is right and wrong or to disrespect the people around you. You just have different points of view about faith.
It only makes bad presidents if they can't keep their faith out of their politics and then we are back at the start of the discussion.

Mojo_PeiPei

Well times have changed (some would say for the better), back in the day people didn't bend over backwards to accomdate people who were in the minority.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Thagrastay

Seriously, though,...
Anyone who has served in an elected or governmental capacity is required to swear an oath of allegiance to the Constitution and the Country. That being the case, the Constitution contains the phrase "...secure the blessings of Liberty..." This is a suggestion that liberty is a blessing. But from whom?
The Declaration of Independence declares "These things to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
Liberty is recognized as a right established and endowed by the Creator. Thomas Jefferson was a self-proclaimed Christian, as were most of the members of the Continnental Congress. The Founders of the United States demanded that liberty would be secured by the Creator and that recognition thereof was inherently implied.
When the President swears to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, he is swearing to uphold the document and its amendments as they stand while he is in office. He is not swearing to uphold cultural requirements and fads and demands and such, but is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution against all foes, both foreign and domestic. Interpret that one with care! and

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"That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

fuzzix

I voted agnostic, seems the safest bet to me. One's belief in god does not immediately grant them morals. There are hoards of unsavoury people who consider themselves "christians" - whether they actually are is another matter, but I only needed to see some evangelical tv from America to make an immediate observation: THIS IS FUCKED UP. Nor however, do I believe that a president should go agains his/her belief system - this would just cause problems. For the record, I don't think my good friend Dubya even believes in god, but surprisingly chrisitanity (or deviant forms of it at least) seem to still be thriving in the US - so he immediately has a huge audience. Justifying any action in the name of religion however, is quaint and stupid.

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MSD

This is the problem that we have. This is why we're headed toward abstinence-only education and witholding AIDS-relief funding from countries that allow abortion.

I think that a leader should be guided by his or her religious beliefs, but that a leader should not impose the beliefs on a country.

Sensei

I am atheist myself but I do realize that the vast majority of America is religous so I voted for the last option.

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Slacking off with style since 1981.

George W Bush

WHatever religious position they had entering; its not like everyone doesnt already know who they voted for.

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"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"

"You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

james t kirk

Yeah, but he would probably work the other 6 days of the week.

Unlike President Shrub who has taken more vacation time than any other president (that's ANY OTHER) in US history. Hell, he typically takes the entire month of August off.

james t kirk

Bush is without a doubt the worst public speaker i have ever seen in my life. He can not think on his feet and i am constantly amazed that he is president of the USA. Did you ever see the movie "Being there" ( I think that's what it was called) with Peter Sellers.

Anyway, Bush has only given something like 7 or 8 press conferences because he KNOWS he can't think for himself.

Oh, he reads from a teleprompter ok, and knows when to make those rhetorical pauses and what not, but if you ask him a question, he is like a deer int he headlights.

The best was the great black out of 2003. Watching Bush on TV answer questions was PAINFULL. You end up pulling the covers over your head when he speaks because you are afraid that Extra Terrestrials will be watching and laughing.

Mojo_PeiPei

Some people aren't public speakers, doesn't diminish his ability as a leader.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

George W Bush

It's only my opinion, but it's one from the experience of people I met: I would haven more trust that a spiritual person may make better moral choices than that of someone that doesnt believe in God.

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"Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning"

"You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

rlbond86

rather late in the thread to comment on this, but Jesus advocated the separation of church and state as well.

Johnny Rotten

But you can be spiritual without being religious. It's called Buddhism

I'm only half-joking, though. Religions like Buddhism can instill a moral code that don't carry the threat of divine retribution. For them, life is a wheel of learning leading to Nirvana, instead of two ultimate and totally divergent paths. You eventually reach the top of the ladder, no matter what.

On the other hand, you could argue that many lives spent on Earth could outdo a single sentence in Hell.

I'll have to ponder that one

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Sun Tzu

I never made the statement it “HAS TO BE”. I was referencing the 1999 movie Deterrence where the character President was Jewish, but stated he followed the beliefs of an agnostic while in office. I occasionally wonder how it would be to have a true Chrisitian or actually any religion that believes Armageddon is an evitable reality, such as most do sitting in the oval office. For someone that really believes that God is going to clean up our mess instead of humanity doing it for itself; how might that affect “worldly” decisions. I haven’t really seen this come into effect because I haven’t seen a true Christian in the Executive office.

Following your suggestion, I read some American history and I’m getting a different perspective, that’s not to say you are wrong. The U.S. Constitution explicitly forbade Congress to create or in any way provide for an establishment of religion. During the 1787 Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia, a motion to pray collectively was voted down. Benjamin Franklin noted that there were only two or three besides himself who wanted to open with prayers. Ironically Franklin himself, during his time in England, had been a member of Sir Francis Dashwood's infamous Hell-Fire Club. A supposed Christian a member of this club? I see a direct parallel between him and our current person with the Bohemian Grove.

In 1802 Thomas Jefferson made the Founders' concept of the First Amendment even more explicit, writing that its intent was to build "a wall of separation between church and state", adding that "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." During the eight years of his Presidency, Jefferson refused to issue a Thanksgiving proclamation.
"Nor did the Founding Fathers put "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or "In God We Trust" on U.S. currency. "Under God" was added to the Pledge by an act of Congress in 1954, during the McCarthy era. "In God We Trust" began appearing on coins in 1864 and became the official motto of the United States only in 1956. [The motto conceived by the Founding Fathers was "E Pluribus Unum" (Out of Many, One).
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of property----excuse me happiness. Yes, the Puritans wanted to escape the King’s grip, but fast forward that and I think the constitution was created with the understanding there would be evolution. The agreement between the founding fathers that owned slaves and those against was the understanding that they needed each other to beat England. The side against slavery understood the constitution would be the very thing that would set them free.

My whole point/question/thought was for someone that is making the kinds of decisions the President has to make, I wonder what the effect would be for someone that has no doubt in their mind that an inevitable battle is coming. Would it be “not on my watch”? or Perhaps “It’s my destiny to be the one- he told me so”.

In my opinion I’d rather see the President sworn in on a lie detector than a Bible.

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Sun Tzu

As I watched the GOP YouTube debates the other night I was thinking how much more effective it was to take questions from the general populous. Someone asked a question that made me think of this topic once again. Even though I disagree that the USA was founded on Christian-Judea philosophies, I believe many of the founders were Christian.

The question was “Do you believe every word of the Bible?” Even though the answers differed (Giuliani gave a safer answer) both were of the same essence. My underlying question remains: If a president is a Christian and believes the Bible to be a total reality, they then believe that Armageddon is inevitable. Could this situation cause a self fulfilling prophecy to occur? Would an agnostic approach guide the focus onto the here and now and direct an evolution of the population instead of expecting the end of the world to be approaching, and possibly influencing it to happen?

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking