RatherThanWords

Let's have an intelligent discussion about abortion from a moral/ethical/societal/philosophical/religious standpoint. Hell...include references, ideas, anything you wish. Let's just not slander eachother, only the ideas presented.

We'll just say I sit on the fence on this one. How about one of you convince me either way

Cynthetiq

it's all about choices... it's not for me to decide since it's not my body, so the man already doesn't have the choice.

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Peetster

I'm a "Life begins at conception" guy.

rogue49

pro-choice....I worked too long in the hospital to see the consequences otherwise.

The govt. doesn't know how to correctly regulate something as sensitive as this.
So the choice has to be left up to the individual.

I wish it didn't have to be.

krwlz

I simply don't think the government ought to have any say in the matter, and therefore it is up to each individual person.

Antagony

I continue the air of this thread, and add my own bit:

Abortion isn't at all a moral issue unless you are a female considering having one. Otherwise, it's a question of restricting other people's actions or not.

"Pro-choice" and "Pro-life" are both silly positions on the issue when you look at it that way.

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rockzilla

I'll definitely agree with the statement about morality having nothing to do with the choice if you're not the one having the baby. However, if the option to have an abortion weren't there, there would be an abundance of unwanted children, either given up for adoption, or otherwise creating additional strain on social assistance programs. Once my tax dollars go to pay for someone elses mistake, that's when I have the right to an opinion. I'm not saying that I would support something like mandatory abortions for people who can't afford children, but the option should be there.

There's my $0.02

Lebell

I've come to the conclusion that there will be very little middle ground between the two sides.

Take it out of the abortion context and consider this:

If you TRULY believe that some one is being murdered, can you compromise on your position?


That being said, I am pro-choice while agreeing to some restrictions in the third trimester.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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4thTimeLucky

My position: I believe abortion is acceptable (I hate te terms pro-choice and pro-life).

BUT this means that I read what I can to convince me to change my mind (I think that is it better to read material that challenges your existing beliefs rather than material that supports them) and will put some corresponding points here.

Firstly, I recommend the following book:
Politically Correct Death: Answering Arguments for Abortion Rights

Secondly,
This is clearly a moral issue for more than just the woman involved. To say it only involves the woman is to adopt a pro-choice premise from the start.
At stake is the *possible* painful murder of hundreds of thousands of human beings - surely that is an issue that affects everyone.

Thirdly,
@ Many people have a utilitarian ethic (they think that what truly matters is creating happiness and preventing pain). There are strong arguments to say that sbortion does cause pain to the foetus, so anyone with a utiltarian ethic should consider the pro-life arguments carefully.
@ Many people have a set of ethics that places a value on human life. There is debate and uncertainty as to whether foetuses (or unborn children, depending on your perspective) have human life. When uncertainty exists as to whether human life is in danger we usually err on the side of caution (i.e. if there was a chance that a room had a person in it, would you be doing something wrong to throw a grenade in?). Therefore anyone who values human life and is not 100% positive that what is in the womb is not a person or human life should consider the pro-life argumetns carefully.

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RatherThanWords

Just today I thought of a new take on this for pro lifers.

Slavery was abolished years ago. That means that one person has no right to own another person. By a pro-choicer saying that a woman has a right to choose whether or not she wants to have an abortion, he is saying that she in fact is the "owner" of that child. Now on that note, should abortion be illegal under anti-slavery laws?

I also just thought of this. If you think about it, people call it "pro-choice" Is that because the true name, "pro-death" sounds much to harsh?

Podmore

Why don't people understand that this isn't just a matter of choice for lots of people? If you believe that human life begins at conception, then abortion is murder. If you believe that, then you will never buy the argument that it's a woman's choice, just as you wouldn't buy the argument that it was her choice to strangle the baby after it was born.

I say this as atheist, who believes that a early zygote/embryo/featus is a <i>potential</i> human, which is sad to lose, but not murder. Still, I fully understand why so many people have a very hard time with it and lobby so hard against it.

BBtB

Sperm hits egg its a life. Period. Try to justify it all you want. Whatever lets you sleep at night. With that said. There are alot of murders and rapist and theives in the night out there. I can not right every wrong. I will not say wether someone can or can not have an abortion EXCEPT if and when it is my child. Say what you want but just because it came out of you it is no more yours then mine. If I got a girl pregnant (wether she be my wife,girlfriend or just some chick) and she got an abortion against my wishes (and it would be) then I would kill her. Its as simple as that. I don't buy all that "Its my body" bullshit. Yea well its MY child. If you want to squirt one out and leave then fine. I can raise my own child just fine. Thats not how I would want it to be of course but I would manage. I expect you to pay child support and if you do not then don't expect to ever see your child. But if she did go and get an abortion done behind my back then I would quite literally put an end to her life. I don't care if I was put away for life or give the death sentance or whatever. I would go to my grave feeling it to be justified.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Lebell

umm

BBtB,

I understand you position, I just don't agree with it.

If you choose to call that justification, that's your right, but I can assure you, I do not see it as "justification" or "rationalization", but my own understanding of life, humanity, and free will.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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BBtB

Well my point is namely to those extremly ignorant people who want to say "Well it is my body" A child is no more the womans child then the mans. The man should have just as much say in things as the woman.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Lebell

While I do not agree that the man should have no say, I also do not agree that he should have equal say.

It is perfectly reasonable and possibly manditory to explore the morality of abortion in terms of the intimate relationship between the woman and the fetus among all the other moral connotations.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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madsenj37

I believe in choice. Sex is the choice. When sex is not a choice, ie, rape, abortion is ok. Also in the choice of the baby or the mother, or both, I say abortion is cool. As for incest, also abortion is ok, due to humanity needing diversity to stay alive. other abortion reasons do not fly in my book. If you cannot be responsible for your actions, do not have sex. I am not targeting anyone but I hate the arguement that birth control is expensive b/c having a child is more costly. I know that at conception a life begins, but is it human? That I do not know, and I doubt anyone else does. Who are we to say its not human? Sex is a choice, choose wisely.

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zfleebin

BBtB: are you saying you would actually kill a woman that aborted your child against your wishes?

phredgreen

not at all.

you are not encouraging people to go out and doing it, you are simply giving them the choice as to whether or not they want to abort. just because they <i>can</i> dosen't mean they <i>will</i> - it is not our place to say they cannot even make that choice for themselves. look at our congress. look at our president. how many of them will ever have the opputunity to make that choice for themselves? exactly. what place do they have to make that choice for someone else?

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BBtB

Yes. Because she murdered my child. As I allready stated, if she wants to have it and then leave to never see our child again then so be it. But I will no more tolerate someone killing my "future" child then I will someone killing my 2 year old. And the only reason I say that I would kill her is because I know she would never see justice through our justice system.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Stiltzkin

First off, this is an awesome thread. Good point and counter points here. Generally I would have to say I am pro-life. When do I consider abortion to be all right? When some sort of exrteme deformity or disease or some other condition is detected before the birth that would decrease the child's quality of life. It is simply cruel and unjust to make a child live a life full of agony. It is common knowledge that suffering is a harsher punishment than death. Counter-point? Well, if we erradicate, say, everyone fetus diagnosed with Down's Syndrom, then scientists would have no way to research the condition. You know what I mean? If we abort fetuses diagnosed with some sort of condition, the number of people with said conditions would decrease and those who are still alive already with the condition would be less in numbers. I feel like I'm not getting my point across. I'll digress and move on (I still have a lot to say)

Just goes to show that BBtB is old-world. I strongly agree with B here, mostly because my dad is also very old-world and has raised me mostly as such. If the baby is perfectly healthy but she doesn't want it, and the bitch aborts it without me knowing, I'd hurt her really bad. I don't know if I'd kill her, but I'd hurt her.

Finally someone said it. This is a cold truth that comes up .001% of the time when discussions about abortion occur. This is what it boils down to, yet people carefully evade it when it is convenient. I've had plenty of opportunities to get laid w/o protection, but I simply didn't do it because I know that the chances of knocking her up were really high. Learn self-control, or stay home. And to the ladies with no self-control, bear the consequences of your actions, but make sure to give the guy who knocked you up the same hell.

As far as rape, I still don't think the baby should be aborted. If you really don't want it, then give it up for adoption when it is born. (more on this later)

Incest, well, chances of the baby not coming out right are high, so as I mentioned before, if the condition is detected before it is born, it might be best to simply abort it. Of course, there is the counter-point to this that I already mentioned.

Your tax dollar go into the trashcan all the time anyways, so a little bit of spending on social assistance programs isn't so bad. Now I don't know the specifics about this, but I recall from my economics class that Congress still has tasters who taste coffee and tea and other such items before they are served, and they are paid salaries comparable to that of a lawyer or doctor. Thats a lot of money down the damn train that your tax dollars are paying for. What with the FDA in place you'd think they'd've gotten ridden of these clowns, but they haven't. God knows what else they're wasting your tax dollars on that you don't even know about. Knowing that part of our taxes goes to these social services programs should actually be a breath of fresh air.

Thats my two cents

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MacGnG

my opinion:
Pro Life = Anti Choice
Pro Choice != Anti Life

disagree?, please explain.
(!=) is doesn't equal

ARTelevision

either philosophy serves the purposes and need of humans or it doesn't.
if it doesn't, it's nonsense.

parents need to be in a position to decide whether or not to have children.
and they need the legal right to abort them before they are born.

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hawkeye

This might be somewhat disjointed, but here goes;

Why do people say that the zygote/fetus/baby is a part of the mothers body? It has it's own unique genetic code. Even if it had the same DNA as the mother until birth, that wouldn't necessarily make a governable part of a womans body. Identical twins share the same DNA, and yet one cannot simply kill the other because, after all, the one is simply an extension of the other.

Next point, we know that it is biologically alive from the moment of conception. We also know that it is human (of human sperm and human ova) Obviously it's size doesn't matter, after all are fat people worth any more (or less) than thin? It's level of development shouldn't make any difference either. I can't hurt/maim/kill a pre-school child any more than I could a college student. Just because it is living in the womb, doesn't mean it is under another persons control, I do not have the power of life and death over the people who rent my house, (though I may wish it.) Age doesn't matter, we don't kill people after they hit a certain age. They may not have any real self-awareness at first, but neither do people with Alzheimers and we have not yet descended to killing them.

Those are my $4 (2c adjusted for inflation)

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Stiltzkin

Second everything hawkeye said. Damn good arguments. Plus the witty comment at the end did it for me.

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Otaku

As far as i can see it, there is only one good reason to abort - and that is : will the development of this embryo/foetus/child bring unendurable hardship to the parent(s)/future child?

This is a simple as i could distill it. The definition of "unendurable hardship" would be the next discusion point.

I dont believe that women should be denied the right to abort, according to the idea i have stated.
I do believe it is her choice in the matter (although the guy does have a right to be heard too).

Anyone who wants to hurt a woman for aborting "their" child i think needs to see a psychologist. The justification of the fact as stated above is spurious and contradictory.

Stiltzkin

Read this.

No need to go around insulting people. If you don't understand the beliefs of others, don't say anything. Not everyone was raised the same as you.

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RatherThanWords

Hawkeye. I disagree with you logic on how a fetus is not part of a woman's body. Since it (the fetus) is connected through the umbilical (sp?) cord to the mother, it is part of her body. True, it may have it's own genetic code, but it would not survive without that physical connection.

Also, for the pro-lifers out there, if you believe that is a fetus is alive without any consciousness or thought processes (first trimester), are you also vegan? At that point in a child's development, he is at about the stage of an animal, so killing an animal for food is about the same as killing a child.

Hmmmm.........

BBtB

They guy has just as much right as the woman. It is 50/50. Why should it be 70/30? Just because it comes from her body? So it is therefore less my child?

So anyone who believes a murder should see justice must there for be unbalanced and in need of mental health. Lets also kill all the squirrels.

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Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

hawkeye

interesting point. I will point to siamese/conjoined twins (although some can be seperated, I know.) but I will give that some thought.

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XenuHubbard

I have a strictly practical view on the issue.
I believe in what Andrew Vachss says; abortions save more lives than they take.

It's intriguing to see that some people care more about unborn babies, than what happens to them after they're born.

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svt

Question:What's the difference between a child a day before it's born and the day it's born?.... Answer: Nothing.

So abortion is not murder if the child is in the womb, but 2 seconds later when it's out its murder?.... It makes absolutely no sense. If you want to give anyone a choice give it to the child about to be inhumanely killed. And yes, it is inhumane. If you don't believe me read the true life story in Sallie Risdales' short story " We do abortions here: A Nurse's Story"

Me being a man makes my understanding much different than that of a womans. I also think the man should have a "choice" in the matter, afterall he did half the work.

Meridae'n

You're never going to change anyone's mind, and that's why women will CONTINUE to have abortions even if they are illegalised. They will just be messier, more painful, and more dangerous.

We should have learned from Prohibition that you can't legislate morality or responsibility.

The best course of action would be to keep abortion legal, without exception, except in the last 3 months where it would be illegal, without exception. And after that if the wonderful women's groups who are protecting female freedom of choice and the wonderful women's groups who are protecting the sanctity of birth are unhappy with this arbitrary judgement, they can pour the uncounted piles of cash they receive every day to make a big controversy about this issue into something USEFUL like sexual education and contraception research and education so that situations in which a woman has to choose to have an abortion or not don't even have to happen.

That's pretty much it.

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onezero1

Norma McCorvey seems to have changed her mind some 30 years later and is now Pro-Life and she was one of the factors in Abortion becoming Legal in the first place

Heres the link http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mccorvey1.html

Otaku

I was not insulting anyone. If you have read it that way, my apologies for not being clear enough in my statement.

Anyone who believes violence plays a part in getting their way needs to consider their position in our society.

How much effort do you put into growing this foetus? 5 seconds maybe? The woman has the majority of the right to decide because she ultimately is the one who pays the price of the pregnancy. If you could bear children, then it would be your right.

im sorry, but i dont understand the point you are trying to make

Finally, if we can define when a child becomes sentient, rather than just "alive", we would find that a lot of peoples arguments against abortion would disappear.

RatherThanWords

I don't think awareness is the issue here, Otaku. I don't think a child is aware until they are at least a few monts old. To put it into perspective, do you have any memories from your first few months on this earth? I sure don't. I don't think that even as much as three months after we are born that we are aware of our existance and our surroundings. May I quote the great movie Memento...

"Just because I close my eyes doesn't mean the world stops."

The world continues on whether we are aware of it or not. <- Good topic for later discussion!

BBtB

First off I do not think amount of effort has anything to do with it at all. Secondaly as I stated in my first statement if she wanted to have it and then leave I would raise my own child. So she puts in 9 months of effort and I put in 18 years. Yet she is still putting in more? What it boils down to is amount of effort or not it is still just as much my child as hers. If I could bare some or all of the pain and work of child bearing I would. But I can't. That doesn't make the child less mine. This is a common mind set that has been going on for years both in this debate and others. This needs to change. It is NOT less my child just because it was inside her. Period. End of debate(this particular debate atleast) There is nothing you can say to convince me that this child is somehow less mine and I should therfore have less say on what happens to it. Either a month after conception or 5 years after its born. It is just as much mine as hers. I have just as much right to my child as she does. Sadly either by natures design or gods cruel joke woman have to do 100% of the child bearing process. However I had just as much in making that child as her. It is not less mine then hers. We both had a part. It was 50/50 that is true untill birth. Now after birth depending on what the parent does they may lose certain rights to their children. But that has nothing to do with this particular debate.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

ganon

I don't understand why anyone would want to kill a baby. Isn't all human life precious? How can any of us possibly think we possess the wisdom to dictate who should live and who should die? Do any of you honestly think that you can determine when life begins, when it has it's own unique value, and when it should end? The gods look down on us and weep, for the things we do out of our own hate and selfishness, just so we can do without some inconvenience!! We are so haughty, cruel, and ignorant!! As soon as we put a price on anyones life, ANY life can be bought!

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Lipo

Without reading all of the other posts yet, let me offer my two cents. Personally, I don't have a problem with abortion. If a fetus can't live outside of the womb, it is not yet living. It's, well, parasitic, living off of the mother. That sounds really harsh, but that's the best analogy I can come up with.

I realize that a baby can live outside of the womb before the pregnancy reaches full term. I may not like abortion once that point has been reached, but I still support it.

Abortion is not an issue that should be legislated, period. If it's a moral issue, then it is not a government issue, plain and simple. The government should not legislate morality under any circumstances.

Morality is a personal issue. My morals probably won't agree with your morals. That doesn't make you or me right. It's a personal belief, and can be based on many different things. It is not for you, me, or anybody else to enforce morality on another individual. You could be just as wrong as the person you think is wrong.

By the same token, the collective opinion of a group of individuals or even an entire society may not be the "right" opinion. I liken it to old Salem and the witch hunts. It was popular to burn witches at the stake, but it didn't make them right.

The moment we begin to legislate what you or I believe is right or wrong we risk causing unnecessary harm to people who don't deserve it.

Let government stick to serving the people, not ruling them.

svt

You are contradicting yourself. If the fetus wasn't living then there wouldn't be human life. How do you think embryos develop into fetuses which develop futher until the day you die. You are constantly "living" until you are no more.

I couldn't agree more =)

Freewill, isn't it great?

BBtB

Technically murder is a moral issue. Murders seldom see themselves as "wrong" should we therefor say because you see yourself as right you ARE right?

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"