Astrology and TFP

[wheelhomies]

Hmmm. I'm not really sure if this is posted in the right place, but I figured it fits here well enough.

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

[Sun Tzu]

Well this pretty much sums up my opinion on it.




After watching that zietgeist video I now know that it had allot more influence on that writing of the Bible than I first thought.

[DaveOrion]

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either. Strangely enough I've had a lion avatar for years, because I'm a Leo, and only recently changed to the machine gun doggie.

Even though I'm not a devout believer, I still check my horoscope from time to time.....they are vague, but often seem to fit.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either. Strangely enough I've had a lion avatar for years, because I'm a Leo, and only recently changed to the machine gun doggie.

Even though I'm not a devout believer, I still check my horoscope from time to time.....they are vague, but often seem to fit.

It would be one thing if it were a matter of trying to explore astrology if the signs matched up to what everyone thought they were. Thats the whole point you are not a Leo (or at least you werent born under the sign of a Leo).


I have an open mind, but did you watch the video?

[DaveOrion]

I didn't watch the video, but I am aware that the signs no longer match up correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac

The signs of the zodiac do not necessarily coincide with the actual constellations for which they are named. Because of the division of the zodiac into 12 signs of 30° each; due to various specifications for the boundaries of the constellations; and especially due to the precession of the equinoxes for the tropical system of coordinates, the constellations should not be confused with zodiac signs. As described above, due to precession the tropical signs have moved away from their corresponding constellations, so that today, the beginning of the tropical sign of Aries (defined as the position of the Sun on the vernal equinox) lies somewhere within the constellation Pisces.

None the less I am still a Leo and always will be. Its not scientifically accurate, but I want be changing signs due to the precession of equinoxes.

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by wheelhomies

Hmmm. I'm not really sure if this is posted in the right place, but I figured it fits here well enough.

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

Much like most aspects of pseudo science, its fun to think about...and likely has some merit..somewhere.

[ngdawg]

I am not a firm believer in astrology, but pretty close.
Most Leo's I know are the same, Scorpio's are the same in general, as are Virgo's.Every Leo I ever dated and every Leo friend but one has destroyed the trust I had in them. Every Scorpio had strong take-charge behaviors with higher than average intelligence and every Virgo is optimistic, has definite unwaivering opinions and is creative. I've had my birthsign correctly guessed on numerous ocassions.
When I worked at the middle school, I noticed a little fact: every year's class had its own 'personality'; one was boisterous and prideful, another was full of loners and angry kids, yet another was quiet but friendly. Teachers noticed it too and we wondered if birth years had some sort of astrological influence on general behavior/personality. It wasn't just their group age-they came in the same way they left.

[Racnad]

I don't beleive that the position of the sun relative to random patterns of stars in our galactic neighborhood has any relavance to anything, but I have noticed as ngdawg has that people born during certain times of the year seem to have certain personality traits. I tend to be drawn to people who happend to be certain signs, most of the women I've dated (or at least my favorites) have been certain signs.

I regularly read two horoscope columns published in the two alternative weekloes in Seattle. Their horoscopes for myy sign often don't match well, but both authors seem to be wise insightful people and I find it worth my time (a total of about a minute each week), to read their pearls of wisdom as applied to people with my personality traits who happen to be born about the same time of year as me.

When I worked at the middle school, I noticed a little fact: every year's class had its own 'personality'; one was boisterous and prideful, another was full of loners and angry kids, yet another was quiet but friendly. Teachers noticed it too and we wondered if birth years had some sort of astrological influence on general behavior/personality. It wasn't just their group age-they came in the same way they left.

I understand that Chinese astrology is based on the year someone is born in rather than the month. You might do sme research on that and see if there's any corrolation between the personality profiles of these classes and what Chinese astrology would predict for them.

[Lady Sage]

Astrology is a very complex form of divination. No, I do not have a degree in astrology, I have, however, been reading charts with a superior degree of accuracy for over 8 years. I have taught classes on the subject and been asked to do psychic fairs because of my accuracy on the subject.

Astrology can not tell you the name of the person you are going to marry, it can not tell you if your marriage will last forever.

What it CAN do is tell you what careers you would be best suited to, what challenges you will have, what personality defects a person may have... what blessings the person will have, what things will cause them much joy.

One of the last charts I have read was for a very closed mouthed friend of mine who was a non-believer. I looked at her chart(a circle with symbols and colorful lines) and told her of her childhood, what it was like for her as a young adult. How one of her husbands beat her and about that little(ok big) hellacious streak she went through when her give-a-damn was beyond busted.

She was awestruck. In all the years I had known her she never told me any of that. I also told her before looking at her chart- do not have someone you do not trust read your chart. You will likely be ashamed at some of the things one will see.

News paper horoscopes are bullshit. You can show me 3 people born on the same day in the same year, each only hours apart from the next. Their horoscopes will be different. Every day, different.

As the minutes pass the circle of a chart turns. When someone is born, it forms a chart. Even twins wont be the same. A new sign on the horison, a trine turns into a sextile- a conjunct becomes a square. Small changes such as that can pull twins in totally opposite directions.

Enough ramblings. You will either believe or you will not. It is not my job to pull you in either direction.

I guess my point is- it is easy to disprove something one knows little or nothing about. It is harder to believe in something that challenges your current beliefs.

Good luck to anyone who hopes to engage me in an argument of right/wrong on this topic. You are entitled to your opinion. I know what the facts are. I have been there and lived that. Each one of us has seen something that no one else could possibly believe. Refer to the first two lines of my signature if you hope to try.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

Astrology is a very complex form of divination. No, I do not have a degree in astrology, I have, however, been reading charts with a superior degree of accuracy for over 8 years. I have taught classes on the subject and been asked to do psychic fairs because of my accuracy on the subject.

Astrology can not tell you the name of the person you are going to marry, it can not tell you if your marriage will last forever.

What it CAN do is tell you what careers you would be best suited to, what challenges you will have, what personality defects a person may have... what blessings the person will have, what things will cause them much joy.

One of the last charts I have read was for a very closed mouthed friend of mine who was a non-believer. I looked at her chart(a circle with symbols and colorful lines) and told her of her childhood, what it was like for her as a young adult. How one of her husbands beat her and about that little(ok big) hellacious streak she went through when her give-a-damn was beyond busted.

She was awestruck. In all the years I had known her she never told me any of that. I also told her before looking at her chart- do not have someone you do not trust read your chart. You will likely be ashamed at some of the things one will see.

News paper horoscopes are bullshit. You can show me 3 people born on the same day in the same year, each only hours apart from the next. Their horoscopes will be different. Every day, different.

As the minutes pass the circle of a chart turns. When someone is born, it forms a chart. Even twins wont be the same. A new sign on the horison, a trine turns into a sextile- a conjunct becomes a square. Small changes such as that can pull twins in totally opposite directions.

Enough ramblings. You will either believe or you will not. It is not my job to pull you in either direction.

I guess my point is- it is easy to disprove something one knows little or nothing about. It is harder to believe in something that challenges your current beliefs.

Good luck to anyone who hopes to engage me in an argument of right/wrong on this topic. You are entitled to your opinion. I know what the facts are. I have been there and lived that. Each one of us has seen something that no one else could possibly believe. Refer to the first two lines of my signature if you hope to try.

Over a year ago, I and another TFP'er had our charts done by a member of another forum. He hadn't read his(they were posted), but I did and was dumbstruck-it was so spot on, it could have been written by his mother! When he finally read it, he too was very impressed. Mine, on the other hand, hit about 50%. Career was completely off, as were many observations in lines of thought. Not sure why, as I gave my date and time of birth-I think the actual time makes a difference, no?
The most accurate astrology I've ever read was in an ancient Hebrew astrology book.(the book wasn't ancient, the contents were). The book, as I recall, did not refer to Kabala at all, but in reading it(I was a teen), I began to think there's something to this and it affirmed my beliefs of interconnections to our universe.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either.

I can't prove there is not a invisible tea cup that is causing me to type this right now, but that doesn't mean its a valid topic of discussion.

The human brain has evolved to see patterns, and sometimes we see them where there is not merit. There is a difference between being open minded and being naive.

Examples: People see lights 'go dim' when they go by. Answer: Obviously they are 'causing' the light to go dim. (Yes this very topic was on this board).

Example: I keep looking at the clock when its 11:11 Answer: Obviously there is something mystical about 11:11. (This one is amusing to me because AFTER I read about those 11:11 nuts I now notice every time I see its 11:11)

Astrology only makes 'sense' in hindsight. You look at the 'prediction' and then see what happened, and then connect the dots yourself. It has no value as a prediction but because your brain can connect some aspects of it to what happened you assume it must have seen a future.

Astrologers themselves I'd move into two categories, charlatans and larpers.

The charlatans are easy, if I were an astrologer I'd be a charlatan and a damn good one. I'd also throw in my knowledge of astronomy in general to really 'sex up' my 'reports' (I'd call them reports at any rate). Using basic psychology, minimal investigation of the person I'm writing my 'report' for, and then throwing in my own advice for what I thought was good for them, I'd be able to really have fun with it. Only I have enough respect for others to not use people like that.

Larpers are those who believe it, study it, read it like I used to read my D&D manual, know all the rules and sub rules, and whos' rules they like to follow, and then come up with something that follows those rules, only the end result is no more real then my old flaming sword +3. Some seem to try to be 'scientific' others more mystical, but regardless its garbage in garbage out. Of course I can't 'prove' its garbage, but you can never prove something is false scientifically only that its not a strong hypothesis.

So am I suppose to respect and accept everyones unprovable fantasy? Treat it special? We already do that with religion, which I think is the wrong approach, there is nothing sacred in my book, but I'm not going to just smile politely to anyone who thinks they can tell something about you based on where the planets and hydrogen balls are.

[RenaissanceII]

I believe that those who tie their lives to, or believe that they are predestined to go a certain path based on what their horroscope says (or from other sources) are making a serious mistake.... If I read what Lady Sage wrote correctly, it is more of an informational thing.....

It is the menu, it ai'nt the meal.... don't eat the menu, cook and eat the meal....

[Nimetic]

I personally see astrology as a throwback to earlier beliefs and, um, somewhat of a rip-off.

But I don't have much urge to push my view here. People believe different things.

[albania]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either.

What makes something science is not whether it can be proved right, it's whether it can be proved wrong. If a theory can't be proved wrong then it's not science. I'm talking about any science that has an experimental component. Math, for example, could be called a science without an experimental component. When one comes up with a theorem in mathematics no one goes out to perform an experiment to see if it's correct. Everything is proven true based, ultimately, on a set of axioms.

[DaveOrion]

Thanks Ustwo & albania. We've all heard the scientific rhetoric a million times on this board, we all know all about it. With that being said, maybe we should give the OPer, ngdawg, LadySage and others a little respect, and a chance to post, even though we don't agree with their views. Bringing up the same old tired scientific axiom argument or the completely useless invisible tea cup analogy isnt helpful, tactful or needed in this thread, IMO. If you dont think this is a valid topic, find another topic that you think is.

[albania]

I didn't say anything about astrology I was commenting on what you wrote. Obviously in my opinion astrology wouldn't fit that definition of science. But, how does the fact that you're tired of hearing something make it inappropriate for the thread, and how does my not believing the same thing as someone else equate to me not showing respect?

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Thanks Ustwo & albania. We've all heard the scientific rhetoric a million times on this board, we all know all about it. With that being said, maybe we should give the OPer, ngdawg, LadySage and others a little respect, and a chance to post, even though we don't agree with their views. Bringing up the same old tired scientific axiom argument or the completely useless invisible tea cup analogy isnt helpful, tactful or needed in this thread, IMO. If you dont think this is a valid topic, find another topic that you think is.

I'm sorry I won't use that 'logic' thing anymore, its offensive.'

Edit: You know this requires a bit more explanation.

Lets say you want to believe some unprovable thing, hell lets say you want to have it somehow decide what you want to do in life, thats fine. What you do or believe is your own problem.

Astrology doesn't work like that though. Its not what someone does for themselves, but for others. The more society is polite and accepts this kind of thing as somehow worthy of at least respect, the more will assume there must be 'something' to it.

I'd rather not have someone taking their kid to an astrologer to give them career counseling. I'd also guess the most common questions revolve around love and money and do we really want demonstrably unqualifiedly people giving that sort of advice?

We live at a time when scientists are really discovering the stuff of the universe and what life is made of, and yet more people believe in ghosts and astrology than they did in the 60's. Something is very wrong with that.

At what point do we say enough is enough and its great that you have this 'belief' but I am not going to be polite about it, its false, its silly, and its at best a waste of time and at worst harmful?

You know my guess is some people have gotten good advice from astrologers, but its not based on some long flawed star chart but just normal human interaction. Why should we coat in some mystic fluff and not just state it for what it was?

And finally, astrology isn't something that is done for free by a lot of these people. Its a money making venture. If someone is selling snake oil you want that known, if a drug doesn't do what it says it may make the national news, and astrology does not do what it advertises. That makes it a scam in my book and worthy of public scrutiny at a 'scientific' level.

Yes I'm not being 'nice', but I am being honest, I'm not going to pretend I find anything of value in astrology, nor do I want someone else to think 'hey maybe I should look into that'.

[DaveOrion]

Theres your answer wheelhomies, I thought I'd play devils advocate for you. I didnt read the last post, wasnt worth the effort, but thats how it goes around here, whether its astrology, UFO's, ESP, or anything without a solid basis in science, as I said before.

[Charlatan]

Dave... Ustwo is absolutely in his rights to state his position (and I am not saying that just because I happen to agree with him). If others wish to carry on a discussion about Astrology and the like, please carry on. If their belief is that strong, it should be able to stand up to the positions and beliefs of others.

At the worst, choose to ignore Ustwo's words and carry on. At best, engage and take him on in his position. That is the nature of discussion. It is the nature of Internet Forums.

[DaveOrion]

Of course he's within his rights, that wasnt the point. Wheelhomies asked how astrology would be received on this board, and I gave her the quick low down on how all such things are received here.

I've said this before too, science cant answer the really interesting questions, some things are simply beyond that. It serves a useful purpose but isnt the end all, for every discussion. Many members would rather avoid discussing anything on the fringe of logic because of the overwhelming need of other members to post a calculated scientific retort to all such inquiries.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Many members would rather avoid discussing anything on the fringe of logic because of the overwhelming need of other members to post a calculated scientific retort to all such inquiries.

I don't know what else to say but, that is their loss. If you believe in something or wish to discuss something, I don't see why anyone else having an opposing opinion (regardless of how passionate) should effect your belief system (unless your belief is just that shaky to begin with).

The point is, people are not always going to understand or believe in the same things you will (that's the universal you). To seek out only those who share your point of view is limitation to personal growth and probably one of the more nasty sides to a conservative mind set (nasty in that most don't see it as conservative... or see that they have such a lazy way of interacting with a difference of opinion).

But perhaps that's just me.

(and yes, I think this should go both ways in a discussion)

[DaveOrion]

Its not the opposing viewpoint thats the problem, its the way that point is verbalized. If you read the thread then you saw ladysage state that she believes in astrology. Along comes Ustwo and says there are 2 kinds of astrologists, charlatans & larpers, basically calling ladysage either of the 2. I personally don't think name calling is appropriate, thats usually the result of a 'holier then thou' attitude, and only encourages unneeded confrontations on an other wise peaceful thread. I will apologize to albania, his post wasn't disrespectful, he just got caught in the middle.

[tecoyah]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its not the opposing viewpoint thats the problem, its the way that point is verbalized. If you read the thread then you saw ladysage state that she believes in astrology. Along comes Ustwo and says there are 2 kinds of astrologists, charlatans & larpers, basically calling ladysage either of the 2. I personally don't think name calling is appropriate, thats usually the result of a 'holier then thou' attitude, and only encourages unneeded confrontations on an other wise peaceful thread. I will apologize to albania, his post wasn't disrespectful, he just got caught in the middle.

It is important (in my opinion) to understand that while some people feel the pull of eclectic, or "new age" thoughts, others will never try to consider it. In the case of Ustwo, he is adamantly opposed to accepting anything outside his frame of reference in my experience, and though he can be gruff at times has much to share in the opposing spectrum. I doubt he was intentionally trying to be cruel, or disrespectful....it simply the way he communicates in this medium. Just wear the heavy leather coat while reading his replies, very few have a thick enough skin.

[Lady Sage]

Ahh, it has been reduced to name calling has it? Alas, I am not suprised. I expect certain things from certain people. As I have come to know that nothing will be done about it.

I, for one, have N E V E R charged to do a chart reading. Hell, I have never even charged to read tarot. It matters not, I am still any number of interesting names. Yay.

Personally, I believe that people expect too much from astrology. It is a tool. It can be used to guide, it can be used to catch a glimpse of something. It seems to me that it could be compared to people expecting a screwdriver to make coffee. A tool can not do tricks.

Kind of like tarot. The most common misconception being that what the cards say is set in stone. No. You have the ability to change the outcome. The cards tell you what will happen if you continue on your current path and choose not to change. You dont want the tragedy in the cards to befall you? Change the behaviors that would make it so.

You have glass windows? Stop throwing rocks. You will end up breaking one of your own windows. I will laugh.

[snowy]

Astrology has fascinated me since I was a preteen. The more I've gotten into it, and the deeper I've gone with it (getting my chart done, etc), the more my fascination grows. The chart I had done was eerily accurate, especially the portions related to my personality. My chart told me things about myself that I never tell anyone about or show to anyone.

And I have been meaning to teach myself to read tarot cards. Do you have any good book suggestions, LS? I'd also like to hear more about your astrology work.

[wheelhomies]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Theres your answer wheelhomies, I thought I'd play devils advocate for you. I didnt read the last post, wasnt worth the effort, but thats how it goes around here, whether its astrology, UFO's, ESP, or anything without a solid basis in science, as I said before.

yeah, i noticed the paranoia section is perceivably less popular than almost any other.

edit: and ngdawg, i am very sorry to hear about all those leos screwing you. over.

[albania]

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I will apologize to albania, his post wasn't disrespectful, he just got caught in the middle.

There's no need to apologize for anything. This is the internet, I wouldn't think to take anything personally.

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by albania

There's no need to apologize for anything. This is the internet, I wouldn't think to take anything personally.

I dont apologize often, but when I do, I'm certainly sure I have done something to apologize for. Although this is the net, a certain amount of respect should go out to each and every member. I should'nt have included you in a post specifically designed for the master of scientific rhetoric & belittling others.

BTW, to answer your question, this has been on on going debate. Much like the threads about whether or not the existence of God can proven or not. IMO, neither side has given credible evidence, and it eventually ends in a stalemate. Many such things are beyond science, for example I know for a fact that my dog has ESP. She starts her little 'someones coming dance' 10-15 minutes before my daughter or friends get here, and theres no possible way she could see, smell, or hear them that soon. So she obviously has something else going on, that science has yet to explain. This has been well documented by other per owners, so I'm not alone in this view. How much more are we, than dogs??????? Thats for another thread................

[wheelhomies]

touché, matrix. touché...

[DaveOrion]

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Astrology has fascinated me since I was a preteen. The more I've gotten into it, and the deeper I've gone with it (getting my chart done, etc), the more my fascination grows. The chart I had done was eerily accurate, especially the portions related to my personality. My chart told me things about myself that I never tell anyone about or show to anyone.

And I have been meaning to teach myself to read tarot cards. Do you have any good book suggestions, LS? I'd also like to hear more about your astrology work.

I would also like to hear more, and would be more than willing for Lady Sage to do my chart, scary as that may be..... I am also fascinated by a member with such keen insights. My mom was the same way, except she never used astrology, or tarot cards, she was just scary period. Call it insight, intuition, clairvoyance, or ESP, but she had it......BTW, Do Not dis my mom, that would be a very big mistake. No shit.

[ubertuber]

Originally Posted by wheelhomies

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

Astrology is generally received the way all things are here. By that I mean that people apply the standards of reason to it which they use for other things. You'll find that the majority - perhaps even the vast majority - of TFPers are rationalists and have no appreciation for astrology. However, there is a vocal minority who will be receptive to ideas regarding the paranormal.

Regarding posts after the OP, I can say this:

This site is expressly interested in the evolution of human thought and interaction.

Some people may think that means gaining an enhanced appreciation for and facility with nonrational thought. Others think it means eliminating the unquantifiable and unverifiable from human expression. When they come together, there is friction - and that's the evidence of the conditions necessary for evolution. I can't think of why either side should get a free pass. Evolution isn't about coexistence - it's about selection.

That isn't meant to endorse one side over the other in an official way (though I have my opinion). It's just to say that this forum is an arena in which these modes of thought can compete. If that wasn't the case, what is evolving would simply be a foregone conclusion.

To be explicitly clear, I don't see anything wrong with ustwo's posts, passive-aggressive complaints about them notwithstanding. His evaluation of the paranormal is what it is, and it comes with a judgment of its practitioners and adherents. The only way to eliminate the latter is to prohibit the former - and that's not evolution.

[Lady Sage]

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

And I have been meaning to teach myself to read tarot cards. Do you have any good book suggestions, LS? I'd also like to hear more about your astrology work.

Yes and yes, I would love to speak with you or anyone else interested in private about it. No negativity there.

[Ustwo]

Dave let me explain what you did that prompted me to post in this thread.

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board.

That one word. Normally I'll let people who believe in something like this be, I know I wont' make any inroads with a forum post with that type of person, but, when someone claims that its unfortunate that this board doesn't just accept anything without a solid scientific basis I can't just let that go. Perhaps the one thing that keeps me thinking about tfp now and then even when I'm taking a long break is that there are people here willing to use their heads now and then and bring a bit of rational thought into their lives.

Sometimes tfp gets a bit nutty, but I've been pleasently surprised as well. When someone was going to a quack of a chiropractor doing some 'new-age' eastern medicine BS there were a lot of voices willing to express it as such. In the past I've run into a lot of brick walls when it comes to chiropractors and eastern medicine (you know the guys who are driving species to extinction thinking it will help their erections), so when they combined I figured it would be the prefect shit storm of irrational new age thought. Instead TFP came threw.

Its not unfortunate that so many TFPers require at least some verifiable proof before they believe something, but extremely refreshing.

[DaveOrion]

Who are you to judge whats rational or not??? I said what I did because I've seen way to many threads go down in flames, because of an outpouring of someones elses ideals, quickly followed by the piling on effect. Then that threads dead jed.....

I dont agree with Charlatan either...

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I don't know what else to say but, that is their loss. If you believe in something or wish to discuss something, I don't see why anyone else having an opposing opinion (regardless of how passionate) should effect your belief system (unless your belief is just that shaky to begin with).

The point is, people are not always going to understand or believe in the same things you will (that's the universal you). To seek out only those who share your point of view is limitation to personal growth and probably one of the more nasty sides to a conservative mind set (nasty in that most don't see it as conservative... or see that they have such a lazy way of interacting with a difference of opinion).

But perhaps that's just me.

(and yes, I think this should go both ways in a discussion)

I think its human nature to seek out those with a similar viewpoint, your friends aren't usually completely dissimilar, they often share at least some of your beliefs. I dont see how that limits your personal growth at all. Is growth based on a difference of opinion with others??? Accepting others even though they are different & and adding a modicum of respect may be a form of growth.

[roachboy]

dave:

if you want acceptance and dialogue about something that a segment of the population finds outmoded on scientific grounds--and there's nothing you can do about that--but you want to talk about it anyway because you find it interesting, then it seems to me the way to go about having that conversation is to shift the grounds. there's no particular reason why ustwo's positions regarding astrology and more contemporary cosmology should end the discussion--his posts simply exclude a particular direction.


like others i doubt there is a single tfp consensus on astrology.
but it is not obvious that you have to accept the cosmology built into the astrological game to find that game interesting.

cosmology at this point is a scientific enterprise, dominated in large part by astronomer/physicists and so the discourse is that of science.
so if one were required to accept the assumptions in order to find astrology interesting (or to find it uninteresting as the case may be) and the terms across which those assumptions have to be debated are scientific, then what ustwo is saying would effectively end the conversation.

but there is an obvious split between one's immediate experience and the way in which that experience is framed by metagames like cosmology--so for example we might know at many levels that constellations are only coherent objects from a particular viewpoint, but we still refer to constellations. and i can imagine (as i am sure you can) a range of situations in which you can find yourself running through different relations to the notion of constellation--think pointing out patterns in the stars for a child as over against laying on a hill having a stoned "what's it all about, man?" conversation with an astrophysicist....

you can see astrology as a kind of predictive system that may be based on assumptions no longer in force from particular viewpoints, but which nonetheless corresponds to naive perception (this term only to distinguish it from institutionally circumscribed perception)....and it's not as though the fact that the science that once subtended or was of a piece with astrology has shifted means that astrology therefore does nothing except demonstrate to dysfunctionality of all views of the world that are not ours.

by which i mean a pretty obvious thing: we are here, now, in part because previous generations muddled through and reproduced using systems to understand and make predictions about their world. at the very least atrology is an element of that history. if it works in certain ways to predict dispositions in someone born in a certain place at a certain time, then fine. and if casting charts is something that folk like doing, then fine.

so shift the grounds of the discussion and keep having it.
there's no reason for you to argue that dialogue and respect and its attending virtues require that folk accept as scientific in 2007 the assumptions around which astrology is built.
it aint gonna happen.
but this is not the only conversation possible.
so make a different one.

[DaveOrion]

Trying to reconcile the rift between science and the paranormal isnt easy, it think that science hasn't required the correct means of understanding all dimensions. If string theory is correct, there may be 10,11, or 26 dimensions, yet we can only detect 4, height, width, depth, and time. Thats a narrow view if this is even close to true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

In addition to strings, this theory also includes objects of higher dimensions, such as D-branes and NS-branes. Furthermore, all string theories predict the existence of degrees of freedom which are usually described as extra dimensions. String theory is thought to include some 10, 11, or 26 dimensions, depending on the specific theory and on the point of view.

[Johnny Rotten]

I find it inherently ridiculous that the date of my birth would be a determinant of any aspect of the course of my life. I find astrology's successes to be a combination of happenstance, client disposition, and cold reading. The very fact that I'm supposed to have an open mind in order for it to work well is a strong indicator; an indicator that the method cannot succeed unless the client is already susceptible to suggestion. To me, it is a system of wishful thinking that employs non-verbal communication and educated guesswork. I believe the potential of the human mind is too beautiful to let itself be limited by formalized superstition.

[Lady Sage]

I remember a chart I did once for a man... he swore everything I said had never happened- or he wasnt like that at all and never had been. Later, the person he was with came back and told me I was spot on. One has to be open-minded in what they are and have been. One can deny all one likes that one is, say, stubborn as a mule. Doesnt change the fact that they are or they are not. Despite the fact that the person just proved it.

[The_Jazz]

To answer the OP, the only thing sthat the collective "we" of TFP have in common are (as I see it):

1) we all possess at least rudimentary computer skills
2) we all speak English reasonably well
3) we all know how to join this website

Beyond that, there aren't any other commonalities I can think of. To be honest, that's what's great about this place. There are folks here that I vehemently disagree with on lots of issues, but they leaven the bread. Honestly, that's why I'm still here after 4+ years, not because I found a bunch of like-minded folks.

As for astrology, I don't really believe in it. I'm with you, Johnny Rotten. I don't see how my time and place of birth by themselves are going to influence my life. Now my father, who is the epitome of rational and logical (so much so that my high school friends called him "Spock"), is very much into astrology. One of his first gifts to Max as a complex astrology chart of the type I expect that Lady Sage can create. It should be interesting, if nothing else, although I don't expect that it will prove or disprove anything.

[Lady Sage]

We are human, we breathe oxygen, we are carbon based...

Sorry, gotta be a smartass.

Bad llama!