Martian

Y'know, as much as I've tried, as often as I've come back to this thread, still...

I'm still hearing all of Silent_Jay's posts in a pimp voice. I fear it may be a permanent association. On the bright side, this automatically makes anything he says hilarious.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

World's King

See, even the Canadian agrees.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

Lubeboy

I'm American and hate tipping. I believe restaurant workers to should be paid better wages or find a better line of work.

Aphrodite

It must be hard to know how much to tip. I'll be visiting, and maybe living in America for a while about a year or so from now. I can't really get my head around the concept.

Leto

I always thought that Australia was a progressive country.

Baraka_Guru

<div style="background:white;color:#333;font:normal 11pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;text-align:center;border:1px solid #96b9d7;padding:5px;width:510px"><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience" style="color:#06C;text-decoration: none;font-weight:bold;">Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience - Job: Waiter/Waitress (Australia)</a><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience"><img src="http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience/0.jpg" alt="Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience" border="0" /></a><div style="margin: 5px; font: normal 8pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;">Compare your salary: <a href="http://www.payscale.com" style="color:#06C;text-decoration:underline">Get a free Salary Report</a></div></div>

<div style="background:white;color:#333;font:normal 11pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;text-align:center;border:1px solid #96b9d7;padding:5px;width:510px"><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience" style="color:#06C;text-decoration: none;font-weight:bold;">Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience - Job: Waiter/Waitress (United States)</a><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience"><img src="http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience/0.jpg" alt="Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience" border="0" /></a><div style="margin: 5px; font: normal 8pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;">Compare your salary: <a href="http://www.payscale.com" style="color:#06C;text-decoration:underline">Get a free Salary Report</a></div></div>

<div style="background:white;color:#333;font:normal 11pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;text-align:center;border:1px solid #96b9d7;padding:5px;width:510px"><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress%2c_Hotel/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience" style="color:#06C;text-decoration: none;font-weight:bold;">Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience - Job: Waiter/Waitress, Hotel (Canada)</a><a href="http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress%2c_Hotel/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience"><img src="http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Waiter%2fWaitress%2c_Hotel/Hourly_Rate/by_Years_Experience/0.jpg" alt="Median Hourly Rate by Years Experience" border="0" /></a><div style="margin: 5px; font: normal 8pt Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;">Compare your salary: <a href="http://www.payscale.com" style="color:#06C;text-decoration:underline">Get a free Salary Report</a></div></div>

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Aphrodite

Bar and wait staff in NZ earn good money. Pizza delivery people have their mileage paid and earn a set fee for each delivery. There's no need for tipping; supply and demand keeps the wages where they should be.

Leto

wow... What is the cost of a dinner in let's say a Red Lobster in Melbourne? Maybe I'll try to find some menus on line.


Well, I couldn't find a Red Lobster, but I did find an Outback Steakhouse in Australia, US and Canada.

Australia:

Outback Burger: $14.99
Bloomin' Onion: $8.95

http://www.outbacksteakhouse.com.au/menu/menu.pdf

Canada (Ontario):

Outback Burger: $10.99
Bloomin Onion: $8.49

http://www.outback.ca/foodandmenus/pdf/ontario_menu.pdf

USA (Ft Lauderdale FL):

Outback Burger: $7.99
Bloomin' Onion: $5.99

http://www.outback.com/foodandmenus/pdf/C3.pdf



currency:

today $1US = $.99 CAD = $1.1 AUS

So our currencies are virtually identical for comparison and in purchase power.

The Australian identical meal cost $4.46 more than in Canada, and $9.96 than in the US (give or take due to exchange)

So this admittedly unscientific survey shows that it is pricier up front to eat in Australia, but then, the wait staff aren't held to the whim of the customer for revenue augmentation.

Ace_O_Spades

No, you just can't hear sarcasm over the internet.

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Feh.

Fly

cha-ching.............

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

funydjane

Because Americans have been brainwashed and duped into paying out more doesn't mean everyone else feels this way. If you want a bigger tip, provide better service. If you want more money, either get a pay rise or get government to sort out a decent minimum wage like other industrialised countries.

blahblah454

Well so far pretty much everyone in this thread agrees that jay talks like a pimp.... oh wait, thats not what I meant to say.

So anyways, pretty much everyone agrees that good food and service = good tip. Bad food and bad service = bad tip.

What does host have to say about that? Or is this wrong as well?

m0rpheus

Maybe instead of bitching about the "cheap" tourists, the service industry should look at complaining to their government to get the minimum wage raised so you wouldn't be at the whim of the customer.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

james t kirk

Give that man a prize.

So,

Australia = $24.00

Canada = $20.00

US = $14.00

Now say the Cheapskate Canadian is used to leaving a 15% tip = $3.00

And the oh so generous American leaves 20% = $2.80

So, Americans are actually cheaper when it comes to tipping than Canadians.



The problem would appear to be when Canadians travel south and leave their customary 15% for good service and get the hairy eyeball from American waitstaff.

Canadians when traveling to the south should take into account the slave labour policies of American restaurants and tip 20% and still be tipping less than they would at home.

Lubeboy

I have always wondered, if you pay with a credit card and add the tip to the card, does the waiter/waitress actually get the tip from the transaction?

Charlatan

The answer is yes.

When you cash out at the end of the shift, your total must equal the register. If you sold $1000 worth of food, you have to hand over $1000. What ever is left in your hand is a combination of your float and tips.

(yes... I was a waiter at one time)

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

This comes back to cultural sensitivities. Canadians should be sympathetic to destitute Americans. I wonder how many servers need to hold more than one job.

The working poor and all that.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ace_O_Spades

All these well-crafted arguments are falling on deaf ears. the OP already made up his mind. But I like this thread because I'm learning more than I ever probably needed to know about the disparities in tipping between our two great nations (and countries around the world)

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Feh.

Barstool

To the OP: I agree with willtravel on this. I tip no less than 15% for a meal, if the service was average. I'll go up significantly if the service justified it. At more expensive dinners, I'll tip 20% or more usually because the service matches the food. At a bar, I tip $1 per drink, or if I'm ordering some beers, I'll give $1 or $2 to the barkeep. For other things, like haircuts, I usually leave $2 on a $10 cut (that's what, 20%?) For taxis, I pay cab-fare + $5-$10 depending on how quick, rude, direct, or helpful the cabbie was. Everything else I play by ear.

Ace_O_Spades

I don't have to defend myself to you. I tip 15% which is standard. You're a blowhard and you know it. Admit it or move on.

[edit]

Actually TROLL would be the better word to describe you, and I apologize to the TFP for feeding the trolls.

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Feh.

Ustwo

Misleading statistics.

Most servers do NOT report their full income on their taxes, and by most I mean the sane ones.

We were TOLD by management to report at least 8% tip.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ace_O_Spades

So once again, your system is broken, and the consumer (whether it be an American, Canadian, or an Ethiopian) must cover the difference on a near arbitrary basis in order for servers to earn a decent living?

It just seems really ass backwards... I mean, when management is encouraging you to perform tax fraud, that's gotta be quite the telltale sign the system needs a good hard look, don't you think?

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Feh.

Ustwo

We pay much lower prices and our servers get paid.

The only one not getting their 'fair' cut is the government and I could give a shit about that.

A government doesn't exist to extort money from its citizens, at least it shouldn't.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ace_O_Spades

But you have to admit that as a byproduct of your lower prices you have lower wages. And as the result of your lower wages, you have a cryptic system of tipping that says 15% standard, but we really expect you to tip 20% as a base, and go up from there, not down, because if you don't we won't be able to make a living. And then expect people from countries with different standard tipping practices, or with no tipping at all, to realize this and adjust appropriately.

I can honestly say I've learned valuable information from this thread, and while I may dislike your system, and I may dislike the fact I'm making up for your government's shortcomings, I will tip 20% while I'm in the United States because I realize it's not the server's fault you guys don't know how to take care of your citizens with appropriate minimum wage laws.

Ah, and that's not quite a good enough excuse for tax fraud in my opinion. Change the law, don't cheat the law. Lex injusta non est lex - an unjust law is no law at all... Raise the minimum wage, and fix the system of taxing tips so it doesn't force people to cheat the government in order to survive.

__________________
Feh.

m0rpheus

Misleading how? Does the employer not track how many hours the employee works and pays them?
Those statistics have nothing to do with tips just hourly pay.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

percy

I realize people serving in restaurants live off their tips, and most of those people do a great job and are tipped accordingly.

Sometimes a cheap bastard will grace ones presence but that is life. The sun can't shine everyday.

But stereotyping people as lousy tippers by country tells me that the tips received may be secondary to what the problem really is, and that may be bitterness of ones job or the industry as a whole.

If that's the case, it's time to get another job because ones bias will affect the service if one assumes the guests to be bad tippers.

If you don't want to be there, chances are because of you, neither are the people you are serving either.

Ustwo

Which makes them completely useless as any sort of comparison of real wages.

This isn't rocket science people.

Our food costs less than other countries, part of that difference is in how we pay servers.

We expect at least a 15% tip for adequate service, and more for good service. For poor service, you give less. Its how WE do things. If you think its great to pay 20-100% more for a meal and then not tip or leave a smaller tip thats fine, we will do so when we come to visit your countries. In the US we do it this way, now you know.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

That's where they fuck up, they expect something people don't have to give.

I still find it amusing too see Americans talking about 'how they do things' and 'how we do it', when they can't accept the way other countries do things, makes me fuckin crack up.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

percy

I would think good service is expected, great service is rewarded and adequate service is sub par.

I don't go to restaurants to get the adequate service. My clients don't expect adequate work from me. If they got adequate work, I would expect they would seek better service elsewhere.

And I tip very well. Generally 25-35% for good to great service. Shitty service, bad attitude and a general discontent from a server and you get 10% if you are lucky.

It's your job. Do it properly and reap the rewards.

spindles

I'm only a few pages into this thread but I have to say Amen to this! Waiting positions at higher end restaurants in Sydney are well sought after positions. They pay well and the tipping (on top of a decent wage) makes it a very good job to have.

I also agree with Daniel RE the level of service required of a good wait person. There is no need to constantly hang around diners - but you should do your job with a minimum of fuss and interruption. Offering my seven refills of coffee is more likely to piss me off than make me happy (the diner waitress in Idaho almost died when I said I didn't want coffee with my breakfast - I'm not sure she knew what she needed to do to keep me happy, given there was no coffee cup to fill - simple: deliver the food/drinks I ordered in a courteous and efficient manner and be accessible if I need anything)

I guess the biggest difference is that in Oz even the lowest paid make minimum wage and this is an amount of money you could live on (without tips). I'm amazed that you can earn below minimum wage (that just seems nonsensical).

Having said all that, I have travelled to the US and did research what was expected in this area and generally tipped what was expected (this was 10 years ago and I don't have a clear recollection of the expectation at that time).

I'm surprised we aussies aren't on your hit list - we are renowned for being cheap bastards when travelling (historically our currency has been significantly weaker than US/UK currencies and everything is so far away it costs a lot to get there - we'll cut corners on anything. Maybe not as true as it used to be - the USD and AUD are getting almost to parity...

This price difference also stems from the size of the market - Australia's total population is only 21 million. *everything* is more expensive here.

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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

JamesB

Its funny - the only people who bitch about not being tipped well are the BAD waiters/waitresses.

The good ones get tipped well enough (for services rendered) that they don't have to worry / bitch / whine / complain / gripe / snivel / belly ache / protest / did I mention complain? about the few people who don't appear to conform to the 'norm'.

Again, let me reiterate: tips are earned
Not happy with your tips: find another job you ...

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-- apt-get install spare_time --

Ustwo

Not true, they don't make it long term, its the beauty of the American system. Having been a 'regular' at a few places, you can see the new people who are not going to make it pretty much from the start.

The ones who complain are the good ones who get stiffed usually.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

How can you be stiffed on something that has no guarantee? It's a tip, as we've already said, it doesn't have to be given, no guarantees.
I'm still curious about this. Does it really surprise Americans that people won't learn your 'customs' or 'the way things are done here' when you act the way you do around the world, I mean seriously you guys can't even let countries govern themselves the way they want to without sticking your noses into it, so does it really make sense to say 'it's our custom, you should learn it'.

Or does learning customs only apply when visiting America and you guys can just do what you like?

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

m0rpheus

So let me get this straight. If I am not satisfied with the level of service and leave you a smaller tip then I am "cheap". So what do you think that makes you in my eyes for not reporting your full income like I have to?

Adequate service is fine for the kid behind the counter at McDonalds. I expect more than that when I go out to eat (assuming it is somewhere nice and not just a greasy spoon). If that is all you offer me then there is no way in hell I'm leaving you 15%. As I've said before, make me happy (it's not really that hard) and I am more than happy to tip well. Make sure my drink is topped up before I get my meal, get me my food in a timely fashion (or at least inform me if there has been a holdup), don't be a dick and odds are that you will get 15-20% from me. If you do more you get more, it's as simple as that.

And then you bitch about the "cheap" Canadians who actually expect *GASP!* good service!

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Leto

The other thing that grinds my gears (and this has only happened to me in Canada - Never in the US) is when I am ready to leave and the server is no where to be found. I have often put on my jacket and stood patiently at the doorway. The worst offender is the Baton Rouge restaurant. I've actually had to speak to management about this.

- oh yes and the places that bring appetizers at the same time as the main course. Memories of Japan (Don Mills) is notorious for this faux pas.

james t kirk

It never happens in the US because for some God Knows why Reason, the Americans slap your bill down in front of you before you are even finished. I guess they figure they need to remind you that you owe them money.

Leto

I had a nice dinner out last night in Toronto (Stone grill restaurant) and left a 20% Tip.

I thought the service was very attentive, with no gaps in provisioning, even the time when we wanted to leave had an appropriate wait time. The owner delivered a complimentary plate of oysters at the beginning and the deserts were complimentary.

The only downside was the extremely loud party of 10 just next to us. But I put that down to the livelyness of the joint.

20% tip is unheard of for me, but in light of the commenting in this thread, I considered many angles, and decided that 15% calculations can be modified when needed.

incidentally here is the meal from last night (as explained in the VD thread):

Anybody thinking of doing stone grill, give it a chance. We were provided with heated lava blocks upon which our entrees were seared while we ate.

- appetizer was a tapas of bison tartar. Very flavourful.
- The entrees were marlin for her and bison bavette for myself. These cooked on the block in a dry sear fashion, and had a citrus vinaigrette dip for the fish and a chestnut cream dip for the red meat.
-dessert was a raspberry creme brule for her and caramel drizzled fried plantains accompanied with on-site made cinnamon icecream for me.
- as it was our 25 yr anniversary of meeting, the place complimented us with oysters as an appetizer and desserts.

Charlatan

Be thankful you aren't here...

Here they bring the bill and don't leave the table until you've paid. I find it highly annoying.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

Nisses

Not sure I quite got your remark, but the normal way a bigger dinner is eaten in Japan is with everything on the table at once.

That means soup/main course/appetizers/... all in front of you. Don't quite get how that's a faux pas. (also, isn't there a proper English word instead of faux pas, it sounds so snooty )

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Moderation should be moderately moderated.

Charlatan

The traditional western meal has the appetizer arrive first... the main arrive second and the dessert last... with other courses interspersed. I know that in Asia, this is a bit different. All the courses come, whenever (to the point that it's really when dishes come up, they come up).

As for faux pas... that is the English word (even though it's French).

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- Old Man Luedecke