SirLance

No one can prove this was a publicity stunt, and there's no way they'd admit it, but c'mon. Sometimes things are just obvious.

If you want to proseletyze, get your own distribution channel, don't try to use an organization that's actually trying to do some good.

These guys need to go back and re-read Matthew 25.

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Ourcrazymodern?

Even though I have some doubts about divinity itself, I've been very much enjoying the dashboard Jesus my older son gave me a year ago last father's day. Sometimes he dances to the motion of the car and sometimes to the music if it's loud enough! And I don't think Jesus minds that we enjoy it. Be good and do well and go like a god and the world will be a better place! XX

Lady Sage

Perhaps they could donate the mounds of talking prophets to churches to pass out with the christmas baskets of needy families?

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jorgelito

That is awesome NG!! I would totally buy one from you if you could make one. Actually, I think it would be totally cool to have a whole series of Jesus:

corporate Jesus - Jesus wearing a business suit with a cell pone and briefcase
hippy Jesus - tie dye and Birkenstocks, maybe carrying a pint of Ben & Jerry's
sports Jesus - sports uniform and sneakers
hip-hop Jesus - self explanatory
Chinese Jesus
Barista Jesus - you know, wearing the Starbucks garb, dispensing verses with lattes

etc. etc.

NG, you could also alter the stuff he says to more universal and neutral lines.
Like "Be nice to others" or the hippy Jesus could say "Peace brother" - I don't think any of those type of quotes would be offensive.

You know, come to think of it, I remember a few years back I bought one of those Mcfarlane figurines, the Jesus one for my friend for secret Santa. They also make a Noah and Moses too.

That's a good idea too. It seems to make the most sense.

Infinite_Loser

Ahhh... Ok.

We're not talking about children who constantly have their choice of presents for Christmas, but those who usually go without Christmas gifts year in and year out. These children are happy to receive ANY toy that they are given. As I stated prior, I'd be willing to bet every penny that I own that any child who received one of the dolls wouldn't have complained about it's religious context.

If you're a parent and you don't want your child to have the toy, then take it from them. It's a hard concept to grasp, I know, but it works. You're still making a big deal out of nothing.

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JumpinJesus

In fairness, that last remark of mine about Mr. LaRoe being an idiot was a flippant comment, even though it is based on my assumption that this was a calculated move on his part. However, I refuse to defend the intelligence of anyone giving fruitcake as a gift, even if it's me.

And I have to back off my diatribe a bit. I visited Toys for Tots website and learned that it is a Christmas-specific charity. I had operated under the mistaken assumption that it was all-inclusive of the winter holidays. I can concede the point that there's nothing wrong with giving a Christian gift on a Christian holiday. I still hold, however, that not everyone who celebrates Christmas does so for Christian reasons and this needs to be a consideration when gift-giving.

I know this woman who makes some kick-ass dolls. I'll see what I can do.

Personally, I could care less if my kid got a talking Jesus doll. I'm not a Christian, but I'm also not going to deny it to my child if she chooses to be a Christian. I actually have a little toy Jesus sitting atop one of my bookshelves, courtesy of another TFPer. And believe it or not. I'm not as bent out of shape over this as it may appear. It just seemed like a decent discussion to get into, and I've actually enjoyed it so far.

However, I still still still think it was a calculated move. I'll readily admit that I could be wrong about this whole episode, but admitting one is wrong is never any fun so I tend to avoid it as much as possible.

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jorgelito

JJ, your point is very well taken and I agree with you that the difference between Christian and secular holidays needs to be considered (in gift-giving).

I too have enjoyed this discussion, flippant remarks and all. Give me your address and I will send you a Jesus fruitcake for the Holidays! (Everyone loves fruitcake!!)

We'll just have to wait and see if this story develops any further to determine if it's a publicity stunt or not.

Charlatan

I love a good fruit cake... how dare you take my fruit cake in vain!

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xepherys

That may be the best comment yet in this thread.

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ktspktsp

So apparently they're gonna accept the toys after all:

http://cbs4boston.com/topstories/loc...319145558.html

That company got some pretty good visibility over this issue..

Xera

I wish T4T had said why they changed their minds.

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fastom

Jewish tots wouldn't know what to make of Christmas gifts anyways but it's sure to offend anybody other than the real bible-thumpers.

Any gift for the general public should be non-commercial/political/religious if it's to seem sincere. Giving "$50 off" coupons for a new Mercedes probably wouldn't be well recieved either.

MageB420666

Why does everyone assume that Jewish families don't observe Christmas? I was raised Jewish, but every year we would have a tree in our den with gifts under it. We would also celebrate Hannukah as well(Notice the usage of the words "observe" and "celebrate"). If I do ever have kids, I would observe christmas for the simple fact that its a day that a child can look forward to and get excited about, not because it has religous meaning.

Christmas has become such a popular holiday that many people observe it without religous conotation(sp?). And as far as I understand it, just like Halloween, Christmas has its roots in pagan religions, not Christianity. It was adopted by Christianity as a means to convert non-christians in Europe as the religion was spreading(again, see Halloween, or All Hallow's Eve). Kind of as a way to tell people "Hey, converting to Christianity isn't THAT big of a change, this is what that holiday you have is actually for".

And for those thinking that La Roe didn't have an ulterior motive, just look at what he says:"A 3-D teaching tool for kids" and "Anyone can benifit from hearing the words of the bible". He's obviously not doing this to try and make kids happy over the holidays, he's wanting to make converts.

If it was about making kids happy, he would give something to spark kids imaginations and that they could have fun with. I mean, come on, how much fun is it to listen to a doll quote bible verses? I can just see the look on this guys face as he visits homes and see's some little boy playing with Jesus decked out in make shift army fatigues with a machine gun, or a little girl playing with it prettied up in a nice evening gown with some make-up on.

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Xera

Yes, Christmas and Easter both have their beginnings as pagan holidays; however in modern context they are both Christian religious holidays. Since we don't live in ancient times when these were pagan holidays, it is reasonable to expect religious connotations associated with a RELIGIOUS holiday.

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abaya

Oh, but they're so much more fun as pagan holidays.

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Xera

Oh I'm sure this is true. Pagans tend to know how to have WAY more fun than stuffed shirt Christians. There is a chance that Christians might decide to kick me out of the clubhouse for saying that though, and then when would I get to use the secret handshake?

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Lady Sage

Amen Sister!!! Got your Yule log yet?

You can party with the Pagans any time ya like.
Most of us wont bat an eyelash at the Sunday trip ya take down the road.

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opus123

That is exactly what they did. TfT did not take the jesus dolls, but passed them onto some other un-named charity.

From the TfT main website:

"The Talking Jesus doll issue has been resolved. Toys for Tots has found appropriate places for these items. We have notified the donor of our willingness to handle this transaction."

My take on the religious angle is that TfT probably donates toys to kids on Kwanza, Yule, and Hannukah. I highly doubt that they only deliver toys on the 25th of December.

That said, the TfT website mission statements only mention Christmas and they don't mention (that I could find) what types of toys they won't take. Seriously, their FAQ should include that info. And I think the mission statement should include Kwanza, and Hannukah since they fall near Christmas on the calendar and I bet the Marines donate toys to kids accidently or on purpose on those holidays in certain neighborhoods in the USA.

Jonathan

Jonathan

Christmas in my home is never a religious holiday. No mention of jesus or saints or three wise men. My christmas and millions of other people do christmas as a gift and love giving day. That is all.

As for Easter, eggs and bunnies are pagan in nature (mostly german) and I have been to about 20 easter egg hunts as an adult and child and I don't recall once hearing "jesus resurrection" at any of them. Some were sponsored by the cities of Boise, Idaho and Seattle, WA and they did not mention religion of any kind.

Jonathan

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Infinite_Loser

I wonder how you came to this conclusion, exactly. This ought to be interesting.

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raeanna74

I am a Christian but yet I believe that it would not be a good move for the Marine TFT's program to hand these out. It would only encourage militant religious groups who do not worship Christ to declare Holy war. Our military should not be getting involved in distribution of any religious items. Next thing you know there were be dozens of religious groups trying to proselytize through the military. I think that's the wrong avenue and it would distract our military from their main purpose. They made the right choice. I'm irritated the the religious company actually thought their gift was appropriate. A Christian may be quite offended if their child recieved a Koran for Christmas so why can they not put themselves in another person's shoes and be considerate??

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Xera

[stereotypes] Never heard of a Wican refusing to let their child go trick or treating because it's satan worship, only Christians, granted not all Christians, but the stuffed shirt variety sure do. Don't get a lot of Wicans boycotting Disneyland either come to think of it, thats pretty much a Baptists thing, though others have joined in from time to time.

Not saying that Wicans and other pagans don't do these things, but its usually the Christians.

When comparing ONLY those two religions and no others are brought into the mix, it's usually the Christians boycotting the fun stuff- like Disneyland and Halloween- and the Pagans having fun.[/stereotypes]

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Ch'i

Good times.


I agree with Charlatan on this one. Trying to convert people, especially children, is inpolite (to put it mildly). If these dolls were distributed to those who are already Christian, then there'd be no problem.

DonovanDuVal

Why is that marketing to children is always so...insidious? It never seems to matter what an organisation is peddling, if it's to kids it always makes my skin crawl.

And La Roe uses an 'I believe' argument as well. 'I believe as a churchgoing person, anyone can benefit from hearing the words of the Bible.'

I hate these arguments because they always seem to be used to state something as though it's fact, while the actual fact is really nondescript. I think in this example the reader is meant to take 'anyone can benefit from the words of the Bible,’ as fact. Whereas the actual fact is really just a statement about what La Roe believes.

Some call it clever, some call it marketing, as I mentioned, I tend to think of it as insidious.

Mass marketing Jesus Christ! It’s a dirty job but I guess someone has to do it.

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roachboy

as i wait for my anton lavey doll to arrive......(tapping foot on the floor)....

xmas in all its appalling commercial grandeur is the mass marketing of jesus dolls by its nature. i find it kind of funny at one level that there would be any expectation concerning the spiritual potentials of commodityjesus. unless of course some rituals were performed over commodityjesus to imbue it with special powers.
but that would be hoodoo, wouldn't it?
and dont evangelicals reject hoodoo?

i expect that handing out little plastic commodityjesii this time o year will have no evangelical import whatsoever.

what i do expect is that folk who might get commodityjesus and who are not themselves of the judeo-xtian orientation will find in them a fine example of american cloddishness, yet another index as if any was needed of the difficulty that seems endemic of amuricans of a certain persuasion to admit that theirs is not the hegemonic religious reality, that there are many many people who do not believe as they do.

these people of course are among the Fallen who are awaited by Hell simply because they do not believe as the christians do. so perhaps there is some logic in christianland that squares the dispatch of plastic commodityjesii in this realm with the awaiting Hell in the next.

or maybe the logic goes:

harrass them, deluge them and they will submit. saturate them, negate them and they will come around.
demonstrate that combination of insensitivity and oblviousness that makes christianity such an attractive option
reinforce that with plastic commodityjesii and the Fallen will come around.

or maybe the logic goes:

your dog can decapitate the plastic commodityjesus and chew on the plastic commodityjesus head.
no doubt the gnawed plastic commodityjesus head will lay around the floor of for many days.
at some point. spore-like, its superpowers will begin to emanate. Revelation will surely follow and another Nonbeliever will of course bite the dust.

but what it looks like:

in one or another book by the polish journalist kapuscinski, there is a section about private american contributions to famine relief in africa.
among the objects sent were trailers full of left plastic high-heeled shoes and hundreds of thousands of razorblades.
because you never know: someone in a famine might feel it important to totter about on a left high-heeled plastic shoe and if they do that, they will probably want to have a shave.

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cellophanedeity

I know there's an argument that says that Christmas is for Christians, but the holiday has been largely secularized. Thousands upon thousands of nonChristians celebrate Christmas for the spirit of the holiday rather than for Christ, and I think that's more than fair. Christmas is lovely.

All children need playthings, and charities use the spirit of Christmas as a reason to give children presents. While a Jesus toy may be nice for Christian kids, it's not necessarily suitable for the rest of the population. If the toy company was giving its Jesus dolls to churches to distribute to the children of the congregation, there'd be no problem at all, but trying to get a (mostly) secular group to accept Jesus toys to give to anonymous children isn't the best way to go about things.

I hope that hundreds of Christian children get the Jesus toys, and that the rest of the children get things that can stimulate them ^_^

Xera

Just because you take over a holiday doesn't make it yours. Just because people who are not Christians decide that they want to celebrate Christmas because it is such a lovely holiday, does not give you the right to determine what it is we're celebrating. It’s the birth of Jesus Christ, hence the name CHRISTmas.

This is ours. You’re intruding on our day, and then getting pissed because we aren't letting go of it cheerfully. I don't get it. I'm glad to share, but don't take more than your fair share, and don't decide what a holiday means just so you can be a part of it too.

Like I said, we want to talk about why it's wrong for the government to support a religious holiday; I'm on your side. But that argument that "we want to celebrate too so you have to accommodate us" is like the houseguest that starts bitching about what kind of laundry powder I use, deal with what I've got, or get your own.

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JumpinJesus

You see the irony in this, don't you?

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Xera

It’s a true story. Sometimes I jump around and don't look at the big picture. I have to admit here, I was wrong, and I do apologize.

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DonovanDuVal

As an after thought to all this, the morality aside, what about the fact that it's a crap toy? I don't know what life was like for you at school, but if I had a talking Jesus doll, I would have had the p*ss taken out of me something chronic.

I actually think that we've lost sight of the real meaning of Christmas here, and that's presents! And preferably not crap ones that might be a means of indoctrination.

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thingstodo

I agree with everyone here that thinks this was not a good thing. The doll christians win either way. On the one hand they sneek in a religious doll to begin their conversion brainwashing on the little kids that are already downtrodden - a big target of christians. Next, they know they'll get publicity if they are rejected. If they were really serious about helping they'd have their own toy drive and donate normal toys instead of subliminal crap.

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genuinegirly

I think Toys for Tots made a solid decision there. No reason to accept a doll with religious connotation when they're not aware of the children's religious background. I'm sure that the company can find some other organization to donate those dolls to. I know that I wouldn't offer one to my niece or nephews. They're a religious family, but those dolls sound frightening. I don't like talking toys too much anyway.

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beavstrokinoff

Good call toyfortots. I'm sure there are parents out there who would not want a talking Jesus in thier homes. I know If someone geve my kids one it would quickly disappear.

MSD

I think they should have accepted on the condition that they are provided with talking Moses, Mohammed (yes, I know,) Zoroaster, Brahman, Confucius, and Nietzsche toys. Bonus points if not a single toy matched the recipients' beliefs.

Kalnaur

I'm glad Toys For Tots filters out religious toys for their cause, and I'm glad this was resolved.

Also, can we get back to calling it Yule yet?

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Ourcrazymodern?

I still like my dashboard Jesus. I'm kind of glad it doesn't talk. I'd send a bunch to toys for tots, but I think the spring might be a safety issue.
Regarding holidays and who they "belong" to I feel compelled to ask, can't we just agree not to agree and yet allow each other to enjoy them, for whatever reasons we have? Time off from work is valuable. That warm, fuzzy, loving feeling in the darkness of the year is great. The extended family coming together is fulfilling for me. Giving and sharing and caring are good for the soul, no matter how you conceptualize that slippery concept. I love you all even though I don't know you. Enjoy the dark days!

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