Willravel

People are very quick to attack Mac. Arguments like:
1. No games
2. no software in general
3. no one uses them
4. They aren't compatable with PCs
5. You can't modify them
6. They aren't as fast
7. Difficult to use

When I ask for examples, suddenly the conversation ends. Did you notice how Boco didn't respond to my post with the G5 tower fitting 10 hard drives? He was sure that Macs couldn't be modified, but I showed him an example. This is how most of my conversations go.

I think this summs it up quite nicely. Macs can be modified. Macs have plenty of games and various software. Macs do have a rising market share. Macs are highly compatable with Windows. Macs are quite fast. Mac's interface is user friendly and simple.

On the other side of the fence, PCs are not all unstable.

irseg

1. No games

Say, where can I pick up a version of BF1942 or Doom 3 for Macintosh?

2. no software in general

When things like new P2P apps come out, it's pretty much invariably on Windows or Linux. I have NEVER encountered a cool new program and then said "aww crap, that sucks, it only runs on Mac!"

3. no one uses them

According to http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1745930,00.asp Macs have 2.7% of the market as measured by online usage. That's behind Linux at 3.1%. So yeah, essentially no one uses them.

4. They aren't compatable with PCs

When I make a website I need to see how my pages render in IE since it has ~90% market share. Whoops! Can't do it. Nor can I drop a random Windows CD in and install whatever I want. Sure there are emulators, but they don't have the same performance as a natively-run program.

5. You can't modify them

- Apple maintains a stranglehold on hardware and software (not that this is necessarily a bad thing, since the idea is to ensure consistent & reliable operation) which limits the number of available products.

-They have a very low market share, which means there are less companies interested in supporting them in the first place.

-Among the people who DO buy Macs, a very large amount of them them just want a cute conversation piece.

Those 3 things make it much more difficult and impractical to modify a Mac.

6. They aren't as fast

Sure there are fast Macintoshes, but in most all cases a PC at the same price point will be faster.

7. Difficult to use

This one's too subjective. I'm sure I'd have a hard time finding my way around a Mac for a while, just like a Mac user would be put off by Windows or Linux at first.

Willravel

Great, another chance to prove someone wrong. I take no pleasure in this.
www.apple.com store has BF1942 (Secret Weapons and Delux). I played Doom 3. I'd rather keep it off Mac. Even though, I watched the trrailer for the Mac version at the Mac Expo in San Francisco. It's on it's way. Halo on Mac is a lot of fun, too. Will:1

I'm downloading Tears of the Sun from Acquisition right now. Limewire is also a very famous Mac p2p. The idea is not that Mac has stuff that PCs don't it is simply that everything you do on a PC you can do on a Mac. Will:2

Apple's market share is bigger than BMW's or Mercedes's or Porsche's in the automotive market. What's wrong with being BMW or Mercedes? 2.7% also takes into account computer sales en masse. If no one uses them, Mac would be out of buisness. Apple's market is at about 5% in the U.S. and 3% worldwide. no score

Why can't you see how your pagers render in IE? Mac has had IE for years. You can drop in an installer CD with an emulator, because it does not require gobs of processing power. The only time emulators run into trouble is with complicated apps like games. Will:1

Number 3 is disqualified because of it's subjective, disrespectful nature. It only takes one company making parts for Mac in order for you to modify your Mac. I modified my Mac with an aftermarket part from ATI. You can modify them. Will:1

Did I mention price? The G5 modified can keep up with an Alienware tower. I'll find you the site if you need, but if you know Macs, you won't need it. Will:1

Why not try? If you go to an Apple store and put your hand to the mouse, you'll be able to figure it out for yourself.

irseg

www.apple.com store has BF1942 (Secret Weapons and Delux). I played Doom 3. I'd rather keep it off Mac. Even though, I watched the trrailer for the Mac version at the Mac Expo in San Francisco. It's on it's way. Halo on Mac is a lot of fun, too. Will:1

Well that's cool, I didn't know BF1942 was available. But Doom 3 is one of the most popular games our there and "I'd rather keep it off Mac" is not even close to a valid justification for it not being supported.

I'm downloading Tears of the Sun from Acquisition right now. Limewire is also a very famous Mac p2p. The idea is not that Mac has stuff that PCs don't it is simply that everything you do on a PC you can do on a Mac. Will:2

Limewire's been out for like 4 years, runs on Java if I remember correctly (meaning it's one of the relatively few programs that are universal by nature), and sucks ass compared to other apps I've used. I'm sure you can do most everything you can in a Mac--it's just that you don't get the same kind of extensive software development and widespread support on a platform that holds less than 3% of the market, which means Macs get less new, cool stuff.

Bad analogy. First, being uncommon doesn't necessarily mean it's any good: "Apple's market share is bigger than Yugo's or Daewoo's was in the automotive market. What's wrong with being Yugo or Daewoo?"

Second, BMW and Mercedes run on the same gasoline and roads that any other car does. You don't have special BMW roads and run it on special BMW gasoline. There's nothing wrong with a specialty passenger car only having a small market share because it's just as versatile as any other car since it uses the same infrastructure. Macs aren't.

Why can't you see how your pagers render in IE? Mac has had IE for years. You can drop in an installer CD with an emulator, because it does not require gobs of processing power. The only time emulators run into trouble is with complicated apps like games. Will:1

Yeah, IE5. Verson 6 has been out for years. And if the idea is that Mac is good enough to stand on its own merits and does everything a PC can, etc., etc., it wouldn't need emulators.

Number 3 is disqualified because of it's subjective, disrespectful nature. It only takes one company making parts for Mac in order for you to modify your Mac. I modified my Mac with an aftermarket part from ATI. You can modify them. Will:1

If I'm being "disrespectful" then so is Apple, considering they blatantly market to those types (for instance: the "Switch" commercials). And considering Apple provides you with the capability of swapping out the video card and ATI makes cards for them, that's no more impressive than me saying I modified my car with a Purolator oil filter.

Furthermore I never claimed you can't modify a Mac, just that it's more difficult and impractical since there is far less aftermarket support.

Did I mention price? The G5 modified can keep up with an Alienware tower. I'll find you the site if you need, but if you know Macs, you won't need it. Will:1

Why wouldn't price factor into the equation? Comparing the performance of a Taurus vs. an Accord is valid, since they're the same basic type of car and in the same price range. A Taurus vs. a Ferrari.. well, duh. And BTW, Alienware is like Apple in that you pay a premium to have a stylish computer.

Willravel

Like I said, I just saw the trailer for the Mac release. It's on it's way. Patience.

Can you be more specific than "sucks ass"? And what about Acquisition? It has the best iTunes integration I've ever seen. I suggest you check it out. There are several other Mac p2p apps like Poisoned.

I wasn't suggesting it was good, I was suggesting that marketshare is relative. A marketshare of 2%-5% does not mean it is doing poorly.Fuel is a poor analogy, actually it'd be better to say it has a differently designed tranny or engine. It's a one time purchase for the OS. So long as your mechanic supports your tranny or engine, it doesn't matter.

What in IE6 do you need that isn't in 5 specifically for your web design? The emulators are there for people who need to use things like IE6, but you should be able to do your work on another browser.

You said "Among the people who DO buy Macs, a very large amount of them them just want a cute conversation piece" that not only disrespects those who own Macs (like myself), it is completly untrue of almost all Mac owners. The ATI X800 is aftermarket (and it's a shitload of a lot faster than the 9200 that my comp comes with). It is a modification using an aftermarket part to improve the performance of my system. I could have just as easily used a gforce. If you were to upgrade your processor from the stock Athlon to a new thunderbird, would that mean it doesn't count?


Macs are more expensive, I was only talking about speed. Price does not factor into speed alone. I was talking purely about computer performance compared to other computers. If you were to compare ford to ferrari, you'd compare the gt500 to the enzo, the two fastest cars from each company. I was cvomparing the fastest from each side, Macs was a modified G5 and PCs is arguabally an Alienware comp.

Jesus Pimp

1. No games
There are games but most of the them are ports of PC games.

2. no software in general
There's plenty just not as much.

3. no one uses them
Designers, filmmakers, etc..etc..

4. They aren't compatable with PCs
You can share files but no programs.

5. You can't modify them
Sure you can. Just takes more effort.

6. They aren't as fast
Dual G5 are pretty damn fast.

7. Difficult to use
The gui is so easy it's not funny. It takes no effort to transition from windows to mac os. Mac to PC is another story.

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Ace_O_Spades

I know I'm coming into this late but can't you (willravel) just cool your jets and concede that PC users (like myself) are happy with their choice, and Mac users (like you and a few others) are happy with your choice.

It's been stated (and overlooked TWICE) by Pragma that the only REAL TANGIBLE difference is the fact that if you want to game, go with a PC. Everything else is negotiable.

There's no need to start a totally pointless back and forth.

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Feh.

Willravel

I would never say anything ill about PCs, but I am loyal to Macs so I am dissapointed when people say that "Macs suck". I am totally fine with people buying PCs (I've owned a few myself). I never incite the argument, but I usually end it. People constently question why I love Macs, so I have to tell them. Usually they tell me things like Macs have no games and such, and I have to explain to them that isn't true anymore. This is an extension of that conversation. I'd like to be able to tell people I use a Mac without them questioning my sexuality or saying I wasted my money. I am very happy with my investment. The thing is, the original poster asked which he should get and the pros/cons of each. Then people (I'm sure you an figure out which) come in with the outdated info. I don't want the outdated myths to spread, so I post to prevent Mac-ignorance.

Homey_V

Im going to have to agree with Ace_O_Spades here and say that it comes down to personal choice.

However, just as a point to ponder and I dont want to flare up an entirely different argument (Although I probably will). Perhaps if Macs were indeed as versatile and effective as PC's they would command a similar market share as PC's. I dont claim to know, I only thought of that while my mind wandered.

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killeena

I have to agree that it all comes down to personal choice. And let's face it, the Mac and PC competing with each other is good because it keeps both platforms innovating, which is good for all of us.

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Willravel

Homie_V, it could be as simple as the market taking a long time to shift. For a time, Macs were innefective and poorly manufactured. After Windows came out, and buisnesses started investing in buying them (because Windows supporting computers were cheaper than Macs, thus beginning the price bridge), and Mac suddenly couldn't keep up. They struggled for about 7 or 8 years. Then Steve Jobs returned as CEO and the iMac came out. The idea was that Mac was too late to try and compete in the professional market, so they decided to try and tackle the personal home/creative professional market. In those markets they currently have a 10% and 50% market share respectively (thanks to the iMac, Powerbook, iBook, and espically the iPod). The Mac servers that came out are growing in popularity, but they will need something totally new and innovative that makes them better, and cheaper than PC servers to compete directly with companies like Dell. I predict that Macs will take a long tim (if ever) to come back to the marketshare they enjoyed in the late 80s.

If the current trend continues (stock rising, popularity slowly growing, prices of hardware slowly dropping, marketshare slowly growing), we might see Mac get up to a 10% marketshare overall in about 25-30 years.

BabySealClubber

I was a windows user that recently switched to a Mac and I have to say that I would NEVER think of going back. Mainly, profession would prevent it (Theatrical Designer). Simply put, a lot of sound editing applications DO NOT run on windows. Lighting Design Industry Standards, don't even look. The ones that do run on a windows machine (I have tried damn near all of them) are quite frankly inferior. There are one or two that will get you to near the same level of effectiveness as their mac counterparts, but the price and resource usage are just mind-boggling.

To answer the speed debate, yes, the macs have lower numbers, but Mhz and Ghz are subjective numbers in themselves. My 1.25 Powerbook runs much faster than my 1.8 p4 ever did. Yes information is infact moving slower, but the pipeline is bigger. It is roughly akin to comparing a garden hose and a fire hose. More info to the destination at any one time.

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AngelicVampire

Don't compare to alienware: expensive and over-rated. A custom built machine will generally be cheaper and => the alienware machine.

Thats the nice thing about PCs... cheap and easy to custom build saving assembly money.

jonjon42

AngelicVampire true, but most people do not wish/have time to build their own (I do)

Now as someone that uses both pcs and macs (and once my father's old neXT box...but that's a different story) I must say this...I love them both. Macs can and will run most major OSS apps around (hint: lookup fink). and I personally love the design and the interface. Windows is well meh. I guess for games it's fine.
pc (or mac) with linux is awesome too though :P

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irseg

A Mazda RX-8 has a differently-designed engine (rotary). A Ford 500 has a differently designed tranny (CVT, no gears). And both of them compose a miniscule percentage of all the cars out there. But they'll still go on the same roads any other car will go. You don't have to stick to driving the Mazda on rotary-compatible roads or else install a "piston engine emulator" that kills a third of your horsepower to go where 95% of cars can travel. That's what I was getting at with the Mac/BMW analogy.

I don't design pages specifically for IE6, but I certainly want to see if I made any mistakes that would affect how it renders under that browser considering that the vast majority of people out there use it. Fortunately anything that renders well under Firefox or previous IE versions will probably be just fine, but it would be rather embarrassing in the event that was not the case.

I used to work in tech support, I've talked to more than enough typical computer owners. I have no problem saying the majority of people who buy PCs got one (and usually the cheapest piece of shit they could find) so they could see what this newfangled "Internet" thing is their kids/grandkids keep talking about, or they need to have one for school/work, or they feel obligated because everyone else has one, etc. That's no insult to the countless people who are knowledgeable about PCs, that's just the truth. Just like how Apple specifically markets to people who think PCs are too complicated, and who want a cool-looking trendy computer that they can show off to their friends. Nothing against you and the many other genuine computer enthusiasts who happen to prefer Macs, it's reality.

The Mac/Windows war will never end, but geez, you've got to admit that Macs have some significant weaknesses. I'm a huge fan of Linux for server applications, whereas everyone else at the company I work for thinks Windows/ASP.NET is the best thing ever.

So I know how it is to be in the minority and frustrated about other peoples' misconceptions. And I enjoy showing off how much traffic even a crappy Linux server can handle, and how everything just friggin' works, and that 99% of the time you can find an free open-source solution to do something that either costs a crapload of money or simply can't be done under Windows. But I'll readily admit that a Linux server is much more of a pain in the ass to set up from scratch compared to a Windows machine with no prior experience, or that it's pretty sad that ACL's are JUST NOW kind of coming into the mainstream under Linux whereas Windows has supported them for years, or that MySQL can't do things like views, stored procedures, etc. that MSSQL has been doing for over half a decade. Every platform has its ups and downs.

rubicon

I'm sitting here and laughing at how absoltely absurd this thread has become. I mentioned that many people have outdated information about Macs (aka, misinformed) and one of the very next messages mentions you can't buy a game that has been available for the Mac.

In the end, this whole thing comes down to personal preference, your quest for value, and your pocket book. This discussion will never end if people keep coming up the same three comments (you can't expand a Mac, you can't find software X, and there's no games).

Whatever you peeps want to argue about, at least get the facts straight before you start typing.

No disrespect, but really now...

P.S.
I run Azereus on Mandrake and Mac. I run Gimp on Mandrake and Mac. I run Photoshop on Windows and Mac. I run MS Office on Mac, Windows and OpenOffice on Mandrake. I can run Quicken/Quickbooks on Mac.

For the love of god, what obscure pieces of software are the majority of Windows people using that won't run on the Mac. PLEASE - DON'T ANSWER! It's only my inner dialogue trying to find peace.

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Willravel

I sold computers to pay my way through highschool and into college (I worked at Radioshack[ugh], Circut City, Fry's, CompUSA, and a few other places). Out of the possibly thousands of Macs I sold, I'd say maybe a dozen were to elderly people. The average person who bought a Mac was a student (late highschool to college). They wanted a machine that was had a simple interface, and could easily cover work, school, and play easily. They did want something that didn't look boring, but it was not as important as capability. I'm sure you didn't recieve help calls from the students because they simply didn't need any help.

Mac's weaknesses come from marketing in the mid 90s and price. Mac can't control who makes software fro them, but they try their best to have their own version that is just as good. The problem I have is that the average person perceives weaknesses where there aren't any. Macs can be modified. I can't tell people that enough. And I always have to prove it to them. It's annoying. Macs do have games. I've been playing Unreal on my comp for years. You yourself were surprised to learn that BF was available on MacOS. It's when others come to me complaining about Mac when I have to bring up the reality.

Give it a few years, I'll bet Mac is able to make something groundbreaking that blows ACL out of the water. It's happened before.

Ace_O_Spades

Yeah but even still... Alienware is still a shitty comparison even choosing companies that pre-build PC's

I think a better comparison would be Dell, Gateway, or *shudder* HP

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Feh.

kutulu

Another thing about games:

Mac may *eventually* have their version of the same games but how long does it take? So they have a version of Doom3 coming out, big deal it's February now. I beat that game back in September. You'll never be able to keep up with the LATEST in computer gaming if you have a Mac. A six month lag is pretty large.

rubicon

Not every computer user is buying their computer to play games. I own a number of games for Windows and don't play often - too busy with other things. Most of my post-college friends and collegaues don't play games either. And we've got the Console vs. PC platform war. But that's another thread.

Judging a computer by its time-to-market for the latest version of Doom isn't a "litmus test" of its merits and capabilities. It would be interesting to have a moderated discussion of computer platforms _wihout_ the topic of gaming.

I've got some friends at NASA's JPL (Jet Propulsion Laboratory) and they're running UNIX, Mac, and WIndows boxes. Playing games never factors into it. A post-grad at CalTech tells me most of the students run with PowerBooks.

I'm sure we can all find a case for using one platform over another, but in the end, a computer was designed to perform repetitive tasks and crunch numbers. Go ahead and buy a Windows computer to play the latest game. Buy a Mac to get everything else done.

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Coppertop

Unless gaming happens to be important to you. If you own a computer solely for gaming, nothing else matters. To each his own. No one person can say what's best for another.

lpj8

I have both a PC (3.0 GHZ, 1gb RAM, 128 ATI) and a Mac (iBook G3 700 for my wife, and most recently a iBook G4 1.2 for myself). I like both platforms a great deal.
My PC blows my iBooks away in terms of speed, responsiveness and my "power needs". I use my PC for some gaming (WoW, Half-Life2), DVD authoring, editing, burning, and some photo editing. I know that my iBook could do photo editing very well, but its hard drive isn't big enough, and I'd really need a G5 to get the speed that I get with my PC. I've found that the superdrives on Macs are rather slow (usually rebadged Sony's = Lite-Ons). I've found it much easier and faster to do DVD stuff on PC without spending a fortune. Sure, I could go pick up Final Cut Pro and the like, but I've found great software for free on the PC side.

My mood is happier when I use my Mac. Its just easier for me to navigate. Weird things don't happen on my Mac that I can't explain like on my PC. I use my iBook for writing papers, reports, general web browsing, music composition and mp3s, and most of my email. I love the clean look and stability of Mac OSX. I know I'm not pushing my iBooks to there limits in terms of power, but I've never had either crash on me. I also really like how OSX handles multitasking. Expose is absolutely awesome. I miss it when I'm on my PC. I'm also a Garage Band junkie. I'm sure there are similar programs for the PC that I haven't tried, but its the easiest music composition software I've used.

In sum, whenever I'm on my Mac, there are things that I miss about my PC, whenever I'm on my PC there are things I miss on my Mac. You can't beat the PC in terms of availability of software, modification support, and affordability. But I'd argue that you can't beat Macs in terms of stability, functionality of OS (e.g. multitasking), style, and bundled applications. It would be hard for me to give up either platform at this point. I don't think that I'd ever buy a Mac Desktop (other than maybe a Mac Mini) because I think they are a hard sell. But, I think the Apple Laptops are among the best on the market.


If you haven't already checked it out, Anandtech.com has a three part series about a hardcore PC users reactions to a Mac. Very interesting reading!

Section 1
Section 2
Section 3

Flinn

I see Mac as a fun toy to own and PC more as a tool. Truthfully I've never been into Mac though, I haven't used one in the last 2 years but I'm so familiar with PC that it would be hard for me to make the switch, I also think you get much more versatility with PC especially when you compare the prices. I wouldn't mind owning a Mac if I wanted a fancy interface and didn't do 80% of the things I use my PC for.

brandon11983

I am of the opposite opinion here. I see the PC as the potential toy of the bunch and Mac as the tool. If you want to play your little games and such, have a PC, when you need to get something done, Mac. I still don't know what you people are doing on a PC that you claim cannot be done on Mac.

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Pragma

Without being entirely subjective, what about the alternate? What are you people doing on a Mac that you claim cannot be done on a PC? Either way, I use my PCs for gaming, and I use FreeBSD & OpenBSD on x86 hardware on all of my non-gaming rigs. I don't see the use of a Mac for my purposes, though I know a lot of people who own them and are perfectly happy with them. Not for me, I do too much gaming and it's not worth replacing any of my other systems with OSX.

Willravel

Can you legally use an OSX emulator on your non-Mac computer (x86)?

Pragma

Yes.. you can legally use emulators, such as I think PearPC lets you emulate a PowerPC on x86 hardware. I'm not entirely sure, though. I've never needed or wanted to emulate an OSX machine.

AngelicVampire

Yes... why would it be illegal? Dunno if one actually exists however if it does then it would be a legal option. However there is far less need for a PC <- Mac emulator than a PC->Mac emulator as PC holds far more market share.

Basically now adays though both sides can pretty much do what the other side can do... its all down to the small things now.

Remember that comparing to Alienware is silly (Selling a name), purchasing a machine from a big company like Dell would be far better, or even somewhere like mesh... you can basically tell them what you want and they put it in the box for you, its like custom building but slightly more expensive.

That I feel is the killer for Mac, you cannot custom build a machine to you needs (or budget)... just pricing a PC at £3000, similar price to that G5 mentioned in the article so I will see what is put together...

Ok, compared to the stock Dual G5 (2.0GHz) with 512Mb of main memory and a 9600 we are looking at a 4GHz Athlon 64 with 2Gb of Main memory and a 6800 Gt, both with 23" monitors, the PC has a 300GB hard disk and is generally higher speced (not sure how duals compare to single proc systems).

Willravel

You cannot legally use PearPC just as you cannot legally use Kazaa. It is independantly produced software, and does not pay any money to Apple. The user who copies the MacOS ROM and installs Mac OS X on a non-Apple-branded computer is committing a violation of law. By enabling users to violate the End User License Agreement, PearPC violates the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

Sorry, but Mac emulators are illegal. PC emulators for Mac [ like VirtualPC or Dave) actually do pay money to Windows, so they are legal. As of yet, there are no legal Mac emulators for x86 hardware.

Lasereth

Blah blah buy a Mac if you want it to look cool and buy a PC if you want it cheaper. Let's go argue about AMD vs Intel!

-Lasereth

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Homey_V

Quite possibly, because there is no reason for there to be legal Mac emulators. While they do exist, its more likely that they were created simply for the purpose of proving that it could be done, or seeing how difficult it would be. If Im wrong, feel free to correct me. There is no reason to emulate MacOS on an X86 computer since there isnt any applications on a Mac that dont have a PC counter-part, or at least, none that people on a PC would use.

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bingle

This is incorrect. An emulator, in and of itself, is not illegal. The process of creating the emulator may be illegal (stealing trade secrets or more recently breaking DMCA-protected encryption) and the process of using an emulator may be illegal (using a pirated copy of OSX or Windows is just as illegal whether you do it on an emulator or hardware). You can download an emulator, and buy an OS for it (or legally download older OSes... this used to be possible with Mac OS 7, I think? You could also run FreeDOS or Linux or something on a PC emulator).

The only dangerous area is that emulators will require some form of ROM to run. Most emulators I have seen do not distribute the ROM files, as they are (all, I think?) copyrighted software and that would be illegal. You can (I believe) legally extract a ROM from a machine you own and use that to run your emulator, but obviously most users do not do this, they download an illegal copy of the ROM and use that. But again, this has nothing to do with the legality of emulation.

Bingle

Pragma

There isn't a single law on earth preventing you from using Kazaa. Now, if you use Kazaa for the purposes of copyright infringement, you can be sued. Entirely different from being illegal to use Kazaa.

bingle

I think the original poster is gone, but just in case, I have another thought to add to the discussion.

You said you were going to college - you should take into account that you're going to make new friends there and they're all going to run Windows. You're going to want to run the same software, play the same games on the LAN, and be able to loan your computer to people (read: girls) who want to write their papers at the last minute and stay up all night in your room.

Depending on what you're studying, too, there might be specialized software that you'll need to be able to run. I had a friend in college who majored in CS and was a Mac fanatic. I felt really sorry for him (although that was mostly before OSX, which probably levelled the playing field a bit). If you get the wrong machine for your subject, you're going to have to spend all your time in the lab anyway. This goes both ways, though - if you're majoring in film or art, most of your fellow students will probably have Macs, too, and some software might even require that.

Honestly, I think you're better off getting a cheap Windows box, and saving the money. Unless you play games now, don't even bother getting a good Windows box -save the money and buy upgrades when you know what you want to do with your machine. Maybe you'll be a gamer and could use a great graphics card, or maybe you'll decide to archive every piece of porn you ever encounter and you'll need some big HDDs. But people change their computer usage habits a lot in college, is one thing I learned :-)

Bingle

Willravel

Like I said,
It's very simple. The user violates the End User License Agreement, and the emulator gets in trouble for enabling the license agreement, as it is illegal in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf). I don't know how else I can word this.

[QUOTE=bingle]The only dangerous area is that emulators will require some form of ROM to run. Most emulators I have seen do not distribute the ROM files, as they are (all, I think?) copyrighted software and that would be illegal. You can (I believe) legally extract a ROM from a machine you own and use that to run your emulator, but obviously most users do not do this, they download an illegal copy of the ROM and use that. But again, this has nothing to do with the legality of emulation.
Bingle[/QUOTE!

I don't know what you're seeing, but all 3 emulators I've used require the ROM. Both Mac emulators (I only know of 2 currently) require the ROM, so they are breaking the law.

It's the same thing. Enabling certian illegal computer acts is illegal in and of itself. Kazaa and other p2p networks are enabeling illegal copyright acts to be carried out. A Los Angeles federal judge ruled that record companies and movie studios can proceed with a lawsuit against the parent company of Kazaa. http://news.com.com/2100-1023-980274.html?tag=fd_top

I missspoke (or mistyped if you will) when I said it was illegal to use Kazaa. If there was a p2p that happened to only have illegal materials, then the comparison would be apt. I assumed that all the materials on Kazaa were illegal. I suppose it's possible that at least one file on Kazaa is not copywritten or registered legally.

kulrblind

So, the Macintosh will interfere with his ability to get girls? Somehow I predict just the opposite. And the mac word processors function much like the windows versions.

Actually, my MS Office X is completely compatible with the Windows version (funny how that works when they're both made by MS). Your point about LAN-gaming, I cannot comment on. Gaming's not my thing.

I understand you're basing your opinions on Macs of the past. It's nice that you admit it.

bingle

Err. I think you have a gross misunderstanding of the law, actually. Emulators are not illegal. Using one CAN be illegal, but luckily the US hasn't gone so far as to outlaw anything that can be used illegally.

In fact, this was tested in court a little while ago - When Bleem came out with their PlayStation emulator for Dreamcast and PC, Sony sued. Bleem won in the end, but spent so much money that they went bankrupt... But anyway, it's legal to reverse-engineer a hardware platform for emulation.

Think about it. Apple is one of the most litigous companies around. PearPC is hosted on SourceForge, with the blessing of OSDN. The developers' names and contact information are somewhat freely available. If there were ANY legal standing for suing them, Apple would be all over it. They sue everyone they possibly can :-)

Bingle

Willravel

Read the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Article 11 of the WCT states:
Article 18 of the WPPT contains nearly identical language:
To summerize, you cannot produce, have, or market a divice or service that circumvents legal ownership. PearPC has broken all three.

I understand exactly what this means. Do you?

irseg

I don't think there are any laws that would apply to Kazaa for "enabling certain illegal computer acts". I sure hope not, anyway. The article you mentioned was about California being ruled a valid jurisdiction to carry out a lawsuit against Kazaa. Anybody can sue anybody for pretty much whatever they want, it doesn't mean there's any validity to the case or that the defendant actually did anything wrong.

If such laws existed then by the same logic they would apply to keyboard and mouse manufacturers (enabling the installation of Kazaa and search/download of copyrighted content), hard drive companies (storage of said content), modems, and so on.

Willravel

The decision means that the lawsuits against Kazaa look valid under California (and national and international) law. Read my post above for the specific laws about producing, having, or markeing a divice or service that circumvents legal ownership.

No. The divice or service must directly circumvent legal owndership laws. Kazaa markets itself as a p2p network where you can download songs and video files and such. It is primarily used to circumvent the law. It is illegal because of this. The people who use the p2p networks to traffic in pirated files are also guilty, as they have broken copyright laws. The lawsuit is not frivelous.