Cache Questions - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

FloydianOne · 02-24-2006, 02:34 PM

I was wondering.. most computers dont have L3 cache right? Except I think some expensive servers, and Mac PowerPC boards. How come the bios will tell you that you have 0kb L3 Cache. Why doesnt it just leave L3 cache out of the bios? Is there no Cache between onchip L2 and the system memory?

cyrnel · 02-24-2006, 02:56 PM

L3 cache is generally in or controlled by the chipset. (but it'll be off-die on processors soon enough - then the chipset's will be L4. :bugeyes

The BIOS is written to handle it since it may or may not be significant. Share chipsets or at least chipset series, and the code has to handle it. Shared code.

FloydianOne · 02-24-2006, 03:05 PM

I thought L1 and L2 were on chip... L3 is off-chip on motherboard, if there is an L3?

cyrnel · 02-24-2006, 03:23 PM

L2 cache has more recently moved from being on chip off die to being on die. There's still a need to cache between the processor and system which is where L3 comes in. (at the moment) It's in the chipSET, as in Intel 875, nForce 4, etc. The amount of cache can vary within the same chipset family.

FloydianOne · 02-24-2006, 05:55 PM

I think im not understanding the difference between "on chip" and "on die"... is there not a cache thats completely seperate from processor and its on the actual motherboard itself?

thanks for you help btw.

MikeSty · 02-24-2006, 06:43 PM

"On chip" means it's actually on the package of the processor, IE what you really would consider the actual CPU

"On die" refers to a specific, more integral location of the chip, known as the die of the chip. A cache on die is usually more important than one on chip.

Martian · 02-25-2006, 06:32 PM

cyrnel's sort of right, but a bit outdated. Welcome to today's lesson : a brief history of cache.

In the beginning, there was nothing. Err, no cache that is. The concept didn't exist. However, the egg-heads quickly figured out that the transfer rates of RAM at the time were too slow to feed the processor all the data they needed, which is why cache was born. It all started with level 1 cache (which wasn't called level 1 at the time, as there were no other levels). Chip manufacturers figured out that they could include a small amont of fast (but expensive) static RAM into the CPU itself and use it to store instructions that are likely to be needed again. The size currently ranges from 8KB to 64KB, although obviously it started at the smaller end of the scale. Algorithms were developed to allow the CPU to store the most commonly used (and therefore commonly needed) data in that cache and a great deal of time was spent trying to improve the it rate. However, it was discovered that the speed of the cache was directly related to the size; the more cache there was, the more the processor had to check and the higher the latency became. That left the engineers in a tricky spot. For one, there was only so much memory that could fit on the processor at a time. This was several years ago and Moore's law hadn't taken us quite as far as it has today. Aside from the fact that there was only so much that would physically fit, too much cache began to effectively destroy the speed benefit; if there was too much the latency went through the roof, but too little and you began to run into 'capacity misses' when the cache simply couldn't hold all the information that the processor needed.

And thus along came level 2. Level 2 was originally defined as off-chip; that is, on the motherboard. It uses a different set of algorithms to store data; some processors use a level 2 cache that is inclusive (and holds all the information the level 1 cache does) while others are exclusive (any datum that's in level 1 will not be in level 2 and vice versa). The whole system works like this:

The CPU checks it's level 1 cache first to see if the datum it needs is in there. If there is a hit, the datum stays where it is (under most algorithms). If it's a miss, the cpu moves onto the larger but slower level 2 cache. If it's a hit there, the processor takes the datum from the level 2 cache and moves it up to level 1; in some cases it'll swap two pieces of data, while in others it'll simply overwrite the least recently used item in the level 1 cache with the new one.

So that's how it worked for a while. Then as memory became smaller and cheaper, manufacturers began to realize that they could boost the speed of level 2 cache by moving it onto the chip, then later onto the die (the central part of the cpu). By shortening the distance from the processor to the cache and removing an entire section of the bus, latency times for level 2 cache were brought down dramatically.

So everything was redefined. Level 1 cache kept it's job, while level 2 cache was moved from the motherboard and turned into a larger secondary on-die cache. At first, motherboard manufacturers began using a much larger but slower still level 3 cache; but as memory sizes and bus speed increased it gradually became redundant for the home PC market. It was discovered that there was a functional limit to the amount of cache a home market multi-task PC could effectively use. Further to that, with advancing bus speeds the boost offered by level 3 cache began to diminish; the main memory began to catch up. Therefore level 3 cache was dropped on most home PC's to reduce price. Since it was either made up of static RAM and very expensive or dynamic RAM and thus lost any speed benefit over the system memory, it was seen as an unecessary addition for the most part. That's why most modern home PC's lack level 3 cache, as you noted.

There are, however, computers that do use level 3 cache. Servers and other high powered, high demand machines often end up executing the same set of instructions over and over, yet those instrucions usually won't fit in the small level 2 cache. Therefore, the level 3 cache will be anywhere from 2MB to about 256MB. As you can probably imagine, this can get very expensive.

As has been noted, level 3 cache is now being moved on chip; Intel has sold the Itanium II for about 2 years now, which in it's most recent incarnation carries up to 8MB of cache on chip. It's worth noting as well that Itaniums are designed to be run in multi-processor server platforms; therefore, each processor has up to 8MB of L3 cache, leading to a much higher effective amount of cache, dependent on whether the system is a 2 or 4 processor architecture.

Whether or not this will lead to a larger still L4 cache, I don't know. For one, there's only so much information that needs to be resident in cache at a time; aside from that, the bigger the cache, the more expensive it is, although Moore's law continues to help ameliorate that. There may already be motherboards out there with L4 cache available, although I'm not up to date enough on the server market to be certain.

After all that, the answer to your question is simply one of legacy. Some motherboards still check the level 3 cache because the architecture for it was never removed from the chipset; it's just been set to 0. Therefore, the line you see during boot up.

02-24-2006, 02:34 PM	#1 (permalink)
FloydianOne Crazy	Cache Questions I was wondering.. most computers dont have L3 cache right? Except I think some expensive servers, and Mac PowerPC boards. How come the bios will tell you that you have 0kb L3 Cache. Why doesnt it just leave L3 cache out of the bios? Is there no Cache between onchip L2 and the system memory? __________________ Fight apathy! ..... or dont.

02-24-2006, 02:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	L3 cache is generally in or controlled by the chipset. (but it'll be off-die on processors soon enough - then the chipset's will be L4. :bugeyes The BIOS is written to handle it since it may or may not be significant. Share chipsets or at least chipset series, and the code has to handle it. Shared code. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

02-24-2006, 03:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
FloydianOne Crazy	I thought L1 and L2 were on chip... L3 is off-chip on motherboard, if there is an L3? __________________ Fight apathy! ..... or dont.

02-24-2006, 03:23 PM	#4 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	L2 cache has more recently moved from being on chip off die to being on die. There's still a need to cache between the processor and system which is where L3 comes in. (at the moment) It's in the chipSET, as in Intel 875, nForce 4, etc. The amount of cache can vary within the same chipset family. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

02-24-2006, 05:55 PM	#5 (permalink)
FloydianOne Crazy	I think im not understanding the difference between "on chip" and "on die"... is there not a cache thats completely seperate from processor and its on the actual motherboard itself? thanks for you help btw. __________________ Fight apathy! ..... or dont.

02-24-2006, 06:43 PM	#6 (permalink)
MikeSty The Computer Kid :D Location: 127.0.0.1	"On chip" means it's actually on the package of the processor, IE what you really would consider the actual CPU "On die" refers to a specific, more integral location of the chip, known as the die of the chip. A cache on die is usually more important than one on chip.

02-25-2006, 06:32 PM	#7 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	cyrnel's sort of right, but a bit outdated. Welcome to today's lesson : a brief history of cache. In the beginning, there was nothing. Err, no cache that is. The concept didn't exist. However, the egg-heads quickly figured out that the transfer rates of RAM at the time were too slow to feed the processor all the data they needed, which is why cache was born. It all started with level 1 cache (which wasn't called level 1 at the time, as there were no other levels). Chip manufacturers figured out that they could include a small amont of fast (but expensive) static RAM into the CPU itself and use it to store instructions that are likely to be needed again. The size currently ranges from 8KB to 64KB, although obviously it started at the smaller end of the scale. Algorithms were developed to allow the CPU to store the most commonly used (and therefore commonly needed) data in that cache and a great deal of time was spent trying to improve the it rate. However, it was discovered that the speed of the cache was directly related to the size; the more cache there was, the more the processor had to check and the higher the latency became. That left the engineers in a tricky spot. For one, there was only so much memory that could fit on the processor at a time. This was several years ago and Moore's law hadn't taken us quite as far as it has today. Aside from the fact that there was only so much that would physically fit, too much cache began to effectively destroy the speed benefit; if there was too much the latency went through the roof, but too little and you began to run into 'capacity misses' when the cache simply couldn't hold all the information that the processor needed. And thus along came level 2. Level 2 was originally defined as off-chip; that is, on the motherboard. It uses a different set of algorithms to store data; some processors use a level 2 cache that is inclusive (and holds all the information the level 1 cache does) while others are exclusive (any datum that's in level 1 will not be in level 2 and vice versa). The whole system works like this: The CPU checks it's level 1 cache first to see if the datum it needs is in there. If there is a hit, the datum stays where it is (under most algorithms). If it's a miss, the cpu moves onto the larger but slower level 2 cache. If it's a hit there, the processor takes the datum from the level 2 cache and moves it up to level 1; in some cases it'll swap two pieces of data, while in others it'll simply overwrite the least recently used item in the level 1 cache with the new one. So that's how it worked for a while. Then as memory became smaller and cheaper, manufacturers began to realize that they could boost the speed of level 2 cache by moving it onto the chip, then later onto the die (the central part of the cpu). By shortening the distance from the processor to the cache and removing an entire section of the bus, latency times for level 2 cache were brought down dramatically. So everything was redefined. Level 1 cache kept it's job, while level 2 cache was moved from the motherboard and turned into a larger secondary on-die cache. At first, motherboard manufacturers began using a much larger but slower still level 3 cache; but as memory sizes and bus speed increased it gradually became redundant for the home PC market. It was discovered that there was a functional limit to the amount of cache a home market multi-task PC could effectively use. Further to that, with advancing bus speeds the boost offered by level 3 cache began to diminish; the main memory began to catch up. Therefore level 3 cache was dropped on most home PC's to reduce price. Since it was either made up of static RAM and very expensive or dynamic RAM and thus lost any speed benefit over the system memory, it was seen as an unecessary addition for the most part. That's why most modern home PC's lack level 3 cache, as you noted. There are, however, computers that do use level 3 cache. Servers and other high powered, high demand machines often end up executing the same set of instructions over and over, yet those instrucions usually won't fit in the small level 2 cache. Therefore, the level 3 cache will be anywhere from 2MB to about 256MB. As you can probably imagine, this can get very expensive. As has been noted, level 3 cache is now being moved on chip; Intel has sold the Itanium II for about 2 years now, which in it's most recent incarnation carries up to 8MB of cache on chip. It's worth noting as well that Itaniums are designed to be run in multi-processor server platforms; therefore, each processor has up to 8MB of L3 cache, leading to a much higher effective amount of cache, dependent on whether the system is a 2 or 4 processor architecture. Whether or not this will lead to a larger still L4 cache, I don't know. For one, there's only so much information that needs to be resident in cache at a time; aside from that, the bigger the cache, the more expensive it is, although Moore's law continues to help ameliorate that. There may already be motherboards out there with L4 cache available, although I'm not up to date enough on the server market to be certain. After all that, the answer to your question is simply one of legacy. Some motherboards still check the level 3 cache because the architecture for it was never removed from the chipset; it's just been set to 0. Therefore, the line you see during boot up. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame