Can someone help me figure out the Dodgers? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 01-11-2005, 09:44 PM

I'm not looking for cynical Dodger-hating comments fueled by unconditional hate for the franchise. I'm trying to understand what the fuck is going through Frank McCourt and Paul DePodesta's heads.

The post season starts out and they let their most interesting clubhouse figure go: Lima.

They also let loose one of the most skilled veterans on the field today: Finley.

Next, they fail to show any interest in the fact that Beltre, their ultimate MVP (Fuck Bonds), is being shopped around. Next thing you know, the Mariners sign him and I start slitting my wrist.

Then they sign Jeff Fucking Kent. To replace who? Alex Cora? Kent is a washed up piece of arrogant white trash and Cora is an amazing defensive player with a consistant bat. Kent demands more money becuase he's a vet and one-time MVP. He sucks, though, regardless of what he demands. I don't get it.

Next comes the Randy Johnson scare. OK, you're willing to get rid of Green (your last, if sorely inconsistant slugger), Penny, Ishii and more in a trade involving Randy Johnson... AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET RANDY JOHNSON?!? What the fuck?

DePodesta, as if suddenly coming back to his "Sim Baseball Franchise" computer game to find that he probably shouldn't have turned on "Auto Manage" as he went to go take a shit, drops out of the deal.

What does that do, though? It disenfranchises Shawn Green, so he persues a trade with Arizona regardless.

So the Dodgers reconcile by signing Derek Lowe and re-signing Odalis Perez, thus giving them a very respectable pitching rotation for next year. But what of the bats? This team was one signature away from deconstructing completely, and now they're only half-saved ---- when they could have been out of the gates with the best damn team in the league if they had only acted sooner

What the fuck is going on?!?!?

Halx · 01-12-2005, 01:01 AM

Oh yeah.. forgot JD Drew. How could I forget hi... err.. what's his name again?

sgn43 · 01-12-2005, 03:07 AM

I really really wish I could tell you what DePodesta is thinking. For a while I was convinced that he was a secret operative working for George Steinbrenner. The only thing I can think of to explain all of this is that he's clearing beaucoup cap space to make some BIG deals....but for who? No one is left and surely Lowe can't be that blockbuster deal he was going for. And yeah, Kent and Drew...I totally forgot they were on the team until you mentioned them.

You'd think after the debacle last year would have taught him a lesson. Trading away Mota, the best setup man in baseball for the best closer in baseball (sidenote: we do still have Gagne, right? Depodesta didn't trade him to the Red Sox for a pack of gum and a Curt Schilling rookie card, did he?!), Paul Loduca, the team's undisputed leader (and a huge fan favorite in a town that is hard to impress, especially when you're not consistently winning) was about as insane as it got. Especially due to the fact that the Dodgers were absolutely on fire when the deal was made, and the main objective in the trade wasn't even met (get Randy Johnson in blue). But, by an enormous stroke of luck, Finley came on board and was so clutch that I swore I'd have his babies despite it being physiologically impossible...and if not impossible, very very very painful.

So, like you pointed out...the two biggest parts of our making the playoffs (and the only reason we actually took a game from the Cards) were the first to go. And now here we are, team morale probably all out of whack, chemistry who knows where, and all of us fans completely confused as to what in the name of uncle jimmy's corncob pipe is going on.

Bottom line: DePodesta needs to cut his cocaine habit before he trades every last one of our starters for the starting line up of a tee-ball team plus their aftergame snacks. However, if the aftergame snacks include snowcones, it might be worth it. If there's Grape flavor, then definitely.

pan6467 · 01-12-2005, 04:16 AM

You're talking about a team that a vast majority don't expect anything great from anymore.

I have noticed in most multi-sport cities that when you have a great team in one sport the rest usually suck. Examples: NY Yankees.... then who? Jordan's Bulls.... who else in Chicago? The Lakers then?????? 1990's Indians.... Hell Modell was so pissed his Browns became second in popularity he moved his team.

It's not like the old days when in 1980 the Phillies won the WS, the Eagles were in the NFC Championships, the Flyers won it all, and trhe 76ers went to the NBA Championships.

Today the sports dollar kind of flutters to one team in that city and the rest are playing catch-up trying desperate moves to show they exist. That is what DePodesta is doing. How does he compete against the Lakers?

Plus one great thing about being the Dodgers is ....... you are the Dodgers have that tradition and know you could field 90 yr old grandmas and fill the stadium for the requisite 7 innings of sundwellers that will leave before the game hits the 8th inning no matter what happens on the field.

MikeyChalupa · 01-12-2005, 07:55 AM

Remember that old Danny Kaye song?

So.. I.. say... D
I say D-O
D-O-D-G-E-R-S
The team that's all heart
All heart and all thumbs
They're my Los Angeles
Your Los Angeles
Our Los Angeles...
(Do you think we'll really win the pennant?)
BUMS!!!!

-Mikey

djtestudo · 01-12-2005, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

You're talking about a team that a vast majority don't expect anything great from anymore.

I have noticed in most multi-sport cities that when you have a great team in one sport the rest usually suck. Examples: NY Yankees.... then who? Jordan's Bulls.... who else in Chicago? The Lakers then?????? 1990's Indians.... Hell Modell was so pissed his Browns became second in popularity he moved his team.

It's not like the old days when in 1980 the Phillies won the WS, the Eagles were in the NFC Championships, the Flyers won it all, and trhe 76ers went to the NBA Championships.

Today the sports dollar kind of flutters to one team in that city and the rest are playing catch-up trying desperate moves to show they exist. That is what DePodesta is doing. How does he compete against the Lakers?

Plus one great thing about being the Dodgers is ....... you are the Dodgers have that tradition and know you could field 90 yr old grandmas and fill the stadium for the requisite 7 innings of sundwellers that will leave before the game hits the 8th inning no matter what happens on the field.

What about Boston?

kutulu · 01-12-2005, 10:27 AM

Ok, there is a lot of information to digest here.

Marlins Trade:
Mota - True, he is a great pitcher. However, because of his great ability he will demand a high salary. He'll probably want something more than $5M/yr and when you consider the fact that he is just a setup man and should usually pitch about 70 innings in a normal season. Considering a 1 or 3 starter should pitch over 210 innings in a season, $5M for a non-closer (perhaps even a closer) relief pitcher is equivalent to spending $15M on a starting pitcher. It's just not a good use of money
LoDuca - A good hitter but his production always falls in the second half. As he ages, his numbers will decline.

Overall, the value of the trade depends on how effective Penny is. His injury is somewhat mysterious but if he's healthy he'll be a very valuable member of the rotation. The other main player you got back was Hee Sop Choi. He is an excellent firstbaseman with a great eye (takes lots of walks) and has above average power. He won't cost much but he'll produce if Tracy just gives him playing time.

Finley - Finley is almost 40. Despite his conditioning, his numbers will decline next season. In fact, even though he hit 35 HR last year, all of his stats declined from his 2003 production. Look at the trend with Finley:
Year AVG OBP SLG OPS
2002 .287 .370 .499 .869
2003 .287 .363 .500 .863
2004 .271 .333 .490 .823

Do you see the pattern there? Things will only get worse for Fins (and as a DBack fan I've always liked Finley a lot). He also lost a step defensively. He ended up signing for 2 yrs, 14M. Way too much for his age with his declining stats.

Beltre - First of all, it's a joke that you called him the Ultimate MVP. His numbers didn't even touch Barry's numbers (and I'm a proud Barry hater). The only thing Beltre had on Bonds was 3 HR in 220 more AB. Look at the numbers:
.362/.609/.812 vs .334/.388/.629 - Who is the obvious MVP?
Now actually about Beltre. His redeeming quality is his age. At 25 he should be hitting his prime now. Last season showed that he is there. However, the numbers were so insanley above his previous career highs that it was obvious to me that he was playing WAY above his abilities. He peaked at the right time, contract year. After six years of mediocrity, he put up monster numbers. As a result, he will regress, a lot. That said, his contract wasn't anything insane, it's only an average of 12.5/yr and he's probably worth it. I'd rather have Beltre than Drew.

Cora vs Kent - I don't care how good of a fielder Cora is, his hitting is nothing compared to Kent. The only thing consistant about Cora's hitting is that he is consistantly bad. He has a career OBP of .314 (about 20 points below league average) and a career OPS of .665 which is dreadfull. You can't combine low OBP with no slugging. Kent, on the other hand has a career OBP of .352 and a career OPS of .858. That's way above league average for a 2B. His offense is more than enough to make up for his defensive liabilities. I see it as a big upgrade for LA.

I liked that they resigned Perez. Despite his assholish nature, he is a good pitcher. Lowe is good and he might benefit from pitching half his games in LA but he rode his world series sucess and made everyone forget that he's posted ERA's of 4.47 and 5.42 in the last two years. I'm taking a we'll see approach on Lowe. No matter what he got more than he's worth.

I sort of understood the Green trade from LA's perspective. They got Drew, so Green was obsolete. Drew is by far a better hitter than Green but will he really be healthy enough to play the whole season? I really can't believe that LA kicked in 10 million to get it done. They really only got a catcher that may or may not do well at the mlb level. Juarez (one of the minor leaguers they got) might become a good MLB pitcher, but he won't be anything great.

pan6467 · 01-12-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

What about Boston?

Wasn't thinking about them but good point. They've become the oddity recently but then again not one of their teams won anything until this year and the Celts are still not winning.

I was thinking more like Dynasty teams in cities..... the Lakers, Yankees, Jordan's Bulls, etc.

Boston is much like that 80's Philly ....... all their teams are strong for 1 maybe 2 years but then what? Can they or will they maintain a 2 sport winning atmosphere?

Halx · 01-12-2005, 12:58 PM

The catcher that the Dodgers got will be their AAA starter, and if he does will in camp, they'll give him the majors role. That shows how shallow they are around the bases.

Now, I wanna say something about Alex Cora. He is a better hitter than those numbers indicate. He's clutch. You know you can count on him to give you a quality at-bat when you need it. Do I need to recall the 18-pitch gem against Matt Clement that ended in a home run and knocking Clement out of the game? And his defense.. amazing.

Beltre/Izturis/Cora/Green was an amazing infield defensively. I know Green is a right fielder, but he adjusted to his defensive position beautifully. The other guys kept making amazing plays... one after the other. Izturis earned that Gold Glove. Beltre should have gotten one, but I will admit that Rolen did make me say "Damn! Nice!" a few times. Cora and Izturis turned an amazing amount of double plays.. with so much accuracy and flare... they were a whole other show within the game. I don't see how Kent can help the defense at all.

I don't know how you can justify anything up to this point. The fact of the matter is, we have no sluggers. We have no contact hitters. We have no offense. We weakened at defense. We can't depend on the pitching staff to save us. We'll be like the Diamondbacks last year when Randy Johnson pitched. That guy could throw some amazing games, only to have his team fuck him over with their lack of defense and hitting. Granted, their bullpen was pitiful, but Randy threw up only like 2 or 3 goose eggs the whole season and still ended with a shitty W/L.

Einstein once said that the difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success. We shall know in a year's time which of those is Paul DePodesta.

kutulu · 01-12-2005, 01:28 PM

There is no such thing as clutch hitting. Most, if not all statheads agree on that. Splits like man on second, or runners in scoring position, etc. vary year to year and if you include enough seasons of AB in those situations they converge to career norms in most cases. There are outliers, true, but Cora is not one of them

Kent won't help your defense but he'll add enough offense to make up for it and then some.

Although there is no bonafide 40+ HR slugger on the team you can expect 20+ each from Bradley, Kent, Drew, and Choi (if Tracy plays him).

01-11-2005, 09:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Can someone help me figure out the Dodgers? I'm not looking for cynical Dodger-hating comments fueled by unconditional hate for the franchise. I'm trying to understand what the fuck is going through Frank McCourt and Paul DePodesta's heads. The post season starts out and they let their most interesting clubhouse figure go: Lima. They also let loose one of the most skilled veterans on the field today: Finley. Next, they fail to show any interest in the fact that Beltre, their ultimate MVP (Fuck Bonds), is being shopped around. Next thing you know, the Mariners sign him and I start slitting my wrist. Then they sign Jeff Fucking Kent. To replace who? Alex Cora? Kent is a washed up piece of arrogant white trash and Cora is an amazing defensive player with a consistant bat. Kent demands more money becuase he's a vet and one-time MVP. He sucks, though, regardless of what he demands. I don't get it. Next comes the Randy Johnson scare. OK, you're willing to get rid of Green (your last, if sorely inconsistant slugger), Penny, Ishii and more in a trade involving Randy Johnson... AND YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET RANDY JOHNSON?!? What the fuck? DePodesta, as if suddenly coming back to his "Sim Baseball Franchise" computer game to find that he probably shouldn't have turned on "Auto Manage" as he went to go take a shit, drops out of the deal. What does that do, though? It disenfranchises Shawn Green, so he persues a trade with Arizona regardless. So the Dodgers reconcile by signing Derek Lowe and re-signing Odalis Perez, thus giving them a very respectable pitching rotation for next year. But what of the bats? This team was one signature away from deconstructing completely, and now they're only half-saved ---- when they could have been out of the gates with the best damn team in the league if they had only acted sooner What the fuck is going on?!?!? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-12-2005, 01:01 AM	#2 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Oh yeah.. forgot JD Drew. How could I forget hi... err.. what's his name again? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-12-2005, 03:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
sgn43 Insane Location: Los Angeles	I really really wish I could tell you what DePodesta is thinking. For a while I was convinced that he was a secret operative working for George Steinbrenner. The only thing I can think of to explain all of this is that he's clearing beaucoup cap space to make some BIG deals....but for who? No one is left and surely Lowe can't be that blockbuster deal he was going for. And yeah, Kent and Drew...I totally forgot they were on the team until you mentioned them. You'd think after the debacle last year would have taught him a lesson. Trading away Mota, the best setup man in baseball for the best closer in baseball (sidenote: we do still have Gagne, right? Depodesta didn't trade him to the Red Sox for a pack of gum and a Curt Schilling rookie card, did he?!), Paul Loduca, the team's undisputed leader (and a huge fan favorite in a town that is hard to impress, especially when you're not consistently winning) was about as insane as it got. Especially due to the fact that the Dodgers were absolutely on fire when the deal was made, and the main objective in the trade wasn't even met (get Randy Johnson in blue). But, by an enormous stroke of luck, Finley came on board and was so clutch that I swore I'd have his babies despite it being physiologically impossible...and if not impossible, very very very painful. So, like you pointed out...the two biggest parts of our making the playoffs (and the only reason we actually took a game from the Cards) were the first to go. And now here we are, team morale probably all out of whack, chemistry who knows where, and all of us fans completely confused as to what in the name of uncle jimmy's corncob pipe is going on. Bottom line: DePodesta needs to cut his cocaine habit before he trades every last one of our starters for the starting line up of a tee-ball team plus their aftergame snacks. However, if the aftergame snacks include snowcones, it might be worth it. If there's Grape flavor, then definitely. __________________ To be great is to be misunderstood. -Emerson

01-12-2005, 04:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	You're talking about a team that a vast majority don't expect anything great from anymore. I have noticed in most multi-sport cities that when you have a great team in one sport the rest usually suck. Examples: NY Yankees.... then who? Jordan's Bulls.... who else in Chicago? The Lakers then?????? 1990's Indians.... Hell Modell was so pissed his Browns became second in popularity he moved his team. It's not like the old days when in 1980 the Phillies won the WS, the Eagles were in the NFC Championships, the Flyers won it all, and trhe 76ers went to the NBA Championships. Today the sports dollar kind of flutters to one team in that city and the rest are playing catch-up trying desperate moves to show they exist. That is what DePodesta is doing. How does he compete against the Lakers? Plus one great thing about being the Dodgers is ....... you are the Dodgers have that tradition and know you could field 90 yr old grandmas and fill the stadium for the requisite 7 innings of sundwellers that will leave before the game hits the 8th inning no matter what happens on the field. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

01-12-2005, 12:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	The catcher that the Dodgers got will be their AAA starter, and if he does will in camp, they'll give him the majors role. That shows how shallow they are around the bases. Now, I wanna say something about Alex Cora. He is a better hitter than those numbers indicate. He's clutch. You know you can count on him to give you a quality at-bat when you need it. Do I need to recall the 18-pitch gem against Matt Clement that ended in a home run and knocking Clement out of the game? And his defense.. amazing. Beltre/Izturis/Cora/Green was an amazing infield defensively. I know Green is a right fielder, but he adjusted to his defensive position beautifully. The other guys kept making amazing plays... one after the other. Izturis earned that Gold Glove. Beltre should have gotten one, but I will admit that Rolen did make me say "Damn! Nice!" a few times. Cora and Izturis turned an amazing amount of double plays.. with so much accuracy and flare... they were a whole other show within the game. I don't see how Kent can help the defense at all. I don't know how you can justify anything up to this point. The fact of the matter is, we have no sluggers. We have no contact hitters. We have no offense. We weakened at defense. We can't depend on the pitching staff to save us. We'll be like the Diamondbacks last year when Randy Johnson pitched. That guy could throw some amazing games, only to have his team fuck him over with their lack of defense and hitting. Granted, their bullpen was pitiful, but Randy threw up only like 2 or 3 goose eggs the whole season and still ended with a shitty W/L. Einstein once said that the difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success. We shall know in a year's time which of those is Paul DePodesta. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

01-12-2005, 07:55 AM	#5 (permalink)
MikeyChalupa Squid Location: USS George Washington	Remember that old Danny Kaye song? So.. I.. say... D I say D-O D-O-D-G-E-R-S The team that's all heart All heart and all thumbs They're my Los Angeles Your Los Angeles Our Los Angeles... (Do you think we'll really win the pennant?) BUMS!!!! -Mikey

01-12-2005, 10:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Ok, there is a lot of information to digest here. Marlins Trade: Mota - True, he is a great pitcher. However, because of his great ability he will demand a high salary. He'll probably want something more than $5M/yr and when you consider the fact that he is just a setup man and should usually pitch about 70 innings in a normal season. Considering a 1 or 3 starter should pitch over 210 innings in a season, $5M for a non-closer (perhaps even a closer) relief pitcher is equivalent to spending $15M on a starting pitcher. It's just not a good use of money LoDuca - A good hitter but his production always falls in the second half. As he ages, his numbers will decline. Overall, the value of the trade depends on how effective Penny is. His injury is somewhat mysterious but if he's healthy he'll be a very valuable member of the rotation. The other main player you got back was Hee Sop Choi. He is an excellent firstbaseman with a great eye (takes lots of walks) and has above average power. He won't cost much but he'll produce if Tracy just gives him playing time. Finley - Finley is almost 40. Despite his conditioning, his numbers will decline next season. In fact, even though he hit 35 HR last year, all of his stats declined from his 2003 production. Look at the trend with Finley: Year AVG OBP SLG OPS 2002 .287 .370 .499 .869 2003 .287 .363 .500 .863 2004 .271 .333 .490 .823 Do you see the pattern there? Things will only get worse for Fins (and as a DBack fan I've always liked Finley a lot). He also lost a step defensively. He ended up signing for 2 yrs, 14M. Way too much for his age with his declining stats. Beltre - First of all, it's a joke that you called him the Ultimate MVP. His numbers didn't even touch Barry's numbers (and I'm a proud Barry hater). The only thing Beltre had on Bonds was 3 HR in 220 more AB. Look at the numbers: .362/.609/.812 vs .334/.388/.629 - Who is the obvious MVP? Now actually about Beltre. His redeeming quality is his age. At 25 he should be hitting his prime now. Last season showed that he is there. However, the numbers were so insanley above his previous career highs that it was obvious to me that he was playing WAY above his abilities. He peaked at the right time, contract year. After six years of mediocrity, he put up monster numbers. As a result, he will regress, a lot. That said, his contract wasn't anything insane, it's only an average of 12.5/yr and he's probably worth it. I'd rather have Beltre than Drew. Cora vs Kent - I don't care how good of a fielder Cora is, his hitting is nothing compared to Kent. The only thing consistant about Cora's hitting is that he is consistantly bad. He has a career OBP of .314 (about 20 points below league average) and a career OPS of .665 which is dreadfull. You can't combine low OBP with no slugging. Kent, on the other hand has a career OBP of .352 and a career OPS of .858. That's way above league average for a 2B. His offense is more than enough to make up for his defensive liabilities. I see it as a big upgrade for LA. I liked that they resigned Perez. Despite his assholish nature, he is a good pitcher. Lowe is good and he might benefit from pitching half his games in LA but he rode his world series sucess and made everyone forget that he's posted ERA's of 4.47 and 5.42 in the last two years. I'm taking a we'll see approach on Lowe. No matter what he got more than he's worth. I sort of understood the Green trade from LA's perspective. They got Drew, so Green was obsolete. Drew is by far a better hitter than Green but will he really be healthy enough to play the whole season? I really can't believe that LA kicked in 10 million to get it done. They really only got a catcher that may or may not do well at the mlb level. Juarez (one of the minor leaguers they got) might become a good MLB pitcher, but he won't be anything great.

01-12-2005, 01:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	There is no such thing as clutch hitting. Most, if not all statheads agree on that. Splits like man on second, or runners in scoring position, etc. vary year to year and if you include enough seasons of AB in those situations they converge to career norms in most cases. There are outliers, true, but Cora is not one of them Kent won't help your defense but he'll add enough offense to make up for it and then some. Although there is no bonafide 40+ HR slugger on the team you can expect 20+ each from Bradley, Kent, Drew, and Choi (if Tracy plays him).