I had sex with my brother but I don't feel guilty - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

inBOIL · 09-23-2008, 12:56 AM

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A woman slept with her sibling for years and has good memories. Not many people understand their relationship, she says

Strangely enough, Daniel's wedding day didn't upset me at all. It was his 30th birthday six months later which really got to me, as he stood there with his wife Alison while they greeted the guests. I can honestly say that that was the only time when I felt real envy and wished desperately that it was me standing beside him, arms round each other as we showed the world how much we loved each other.

It's not as if I'm not allowed to love Daniel, but the way we feel about each other isn't something that we can share easily with anyone else. Daniel is my brother, but since I was 14 we've had a sexual relationship - and that's not something that many people would feel comfortable with.

I've only ever spoken about this once before, and even then it was very much in the abstract. While I was still at university a friend had a major misunderstanding with a relatively new boyfriend when one of his friends had reported back to him that he'd seen her hugging and kissing another man in the union bar. She was firstly annoyed at being questioned and became even more exasperated when she explained that the man in question was her brother, as her boyfriend refused to believe her. Their loud discussion took place in the union with an interested audience, until he finally stamped out in fury, still refusing to believe her. As she flounced back to join us she made a remark about preferring her brother to any other man, whereupon one of the crowd said “Yuck, how pervy!” As she sat down beside me she muttered something like “It's not that strange,” and three or four drinks later I quietly asked her what she'd meant.

Fuelled by drink or maybe just rage, she started talking in a very intense but hushed way about how close siblings could be, going on to say that she was sure that many people experimented sexually with them as they grew up and then simply grew out of it. She said it was like practising your social skills on your family and so long as it was mutual, she couldn't see the harm. I didn't say much - partly because I couldn't believe that I'd met someone who seemed to be like me - and she very quickly clammed up and moved over to talk to someone else and never brought up the subject again.

I think the only reason that I'm talking about it now is to emphasise that I truly believe that she was right - it doesn't happen to everyone but it happens to some, and I don't want to be made to feel guilty about it. Incest is so often spoken about in the same breath as abuse, but if you're close in age and equal in relationship terms then it's entirely different. Of course abuse happens, but it can happen in any sexual relationship and there's an expectation that a family member would never hurt you in the way that someone else could. There's no comparison between siblings close in age having sexual feelings and contact and an adult forcing a younger member of the family to do something they neither understand nor want to be involved in. I think incest is traditionally seen as bad, but in some cultures that isn't the case. When I was small I asked a Sunday school teacher if Adam and Eve's children married each other since they were the first people on earth. She just laughed and didn't reply. Having children with Daniel was never an issue and we were always careful about contraception.

All my memories of my relationship with Daniel are good. He's only a year older than me and we've always been close, especially since we always seemed to be full of nonsense compared with our older sister Jane. She's four years older than Daniel and very studious and focused, while he's bursting with fun and light-hearted enthusiasm. I've adored him for as long as I can remember and my parents were always delighted by our closeness when we were small. We shared friends and moved happily in the same social circles, so I could never understand girls who didn't get on with their brothers.

Things changed when I was 14. I had spent hours getting ready for my first Christmas dance when I knocked on Daniel's bedroom door. It's a dodgy age as you're trying to come to terms with your developing body and worry endlessly about how you look, so his wolf whistle was very welcome as he swept me into his arms and we pirouetted, laughing, around the room, before going downstairs to show off our finery to our parents and Jane.

Daniel's appreciation really helped my confidence and I was aware of him smiling approvingly as boy after boy asked me up to dance, though my greatest pleasure was when he claimed me for the last dance. We giggled home to gossip and hot chocolate with our parents and by the next day all the finery was discarded and life was back to normal.

On New Year's Eve Daniel went to a party and by the time he got home I was already asleep. I was extremely sleepy when he crept into my room and curled up on my bed, which was something we'd both done for years, especially if we wanted to share some snippet of gossip. When he started stroking my hair and face it was a surprise, but I could feel myself drifting pleasurably back to sleep as he caressed me gently. Then I became aware of his hand drifting lower and suddenly I was wide awake as he stroked my neck and started sliding his hand down my vest top. I wasn't scared but I was surprised as he started stroking me, though my overriding sensation was one of sheer pleasure. I instinctively lifted my mouth to his as he kissed me and then he hugged me very tightly and left.

I lay in complete confusion with my mind racing and my body totally turned on. All the sex education I'd had said that this was wrong, that it was abuse and incest. But it hadn't felt wrong and I certainly hadn't felt forced. Rather, I felt that Daniel had stopped long before I'd wanted him to. It was hours before I finally fell asleep but I was sure of two things - that I'd really enjoyed it and I still adored my brother.

The next morning it was clear that Daniel had a hangover but as he grinned up at me from his prone position on the couch there was no awkwardness or regret between us. We didn't discuss what had happened, but went for a long walk that afternoon with Jane and the dog and everything felt the same, down to Jane chiding us about being irresponsible about leaving our parents to do all the tidying up after new year's dinner.

Over the next few years we had sexual encounters every six months or so, each time going farther and farther until I was 17, when we had full sex for the first time. We both went out with other people and there was never any jealousy, although I found it hard to be physically intimate with anyone else. Part of that was because sex with Daniel was so amazing that I had no patience for all the fumbling that seemed to happen with other boys. The sex was never pre-planned, but just always seemed to happen when there was no chance of being discovered.

Every so often I would wonder what people would think if they found out, especially our parents, but it always felt so right and was so exciting that these concerns were never enough to stop me. Sometimes he initiated sex and sometimes I did, but in between times our relationship was as easy, relaxed and affectionate as ever, with the incredible passion of each encounter quietly banked away until the next time.

I missed Daniel when he went to university, but went to stay with him every three months or so. Sometimes we would have sex and at other times neither of us seemed interested. By the time he met Alison he was working and I was a student, and I knew that this relationship was different, but it still came as a shock when he told me he wanted to marry her. However, I was more shocked when he said: “You only have to say and I won't marry her, but then I want us to stay together and not see anyone else. We could be the old boring brother and sister who never got married, but ended up sharing a house because no one else would have them! I know this is meant to be wrong but I've never felt anything so right.” This echoed everything that I've thought about our incestuous relationship over the years. After hours of discussion we agreed that it was time to stop the sexual side of our relationship and also decided that telling anyone else was a bad idea, parting in tears afterwards.

I know Daniel loves Alison, but she's very wary of me. I'm pretty sure that she doesn't see me as a sexual threat, but she thinks of me as an emotional rival and I suppose she's right. It's not unusual - there are countless people dealing with all the emotions that result from partners becoming officially family.

I have wondered if there will ever come a time when I'll look back on my relationship with Daniel in disgust, but I don't think so. Everyone has relationships where the sexual element has ended but a great friendship remains, and that's as good a way as any of summing up what's happened with us. Daniel has a unique place in my affections, as I do with him, and that will never change.

As an academic I have a tendency to draw logical conclusions. I like to see a pattern and resolution, so it does pain me that what appears so lovely and natural to me would be regarded as abhorrent by most people. It's not my subject, but I would be really interested to see a study on incest done on these terms, moving it away entirely from the concept of abuse. However, I simply cannot imagine that many people are happy to talk about it and I certainly wouldn't put my family through hell by being the first to go public.

Three months ago I met Derek and I think this is going to be a lasting relationship. The sex is certainly amazing and he's a warm and lovely man, so I have high hopes for this. The trouble with having someone like Daniel in your life is that it leaves you with very high expectations, but it's hard knowing that the one person you love above everything is out of bounds. Perhaps worst of all is the fact that you can't tell anyone, as his or her disgust would ruin everything.

I don't believe that anything is wrong that doesen't hurt someone, so logically, I can't condemn this. But I can't help but feel uncomfortabe about it. I guess I'm surprised by how normal the article makes this sound. Nobody got hurt in this situation, but there was risk. There was the possibility of a pregnancy, even though they used protection. Should that alone make this type of incest wrong?

Is there anything psychologically damaging about such a relationship? Is it indicative of preexisting problems, or just an uncommon but healthy form of adolescent socializing?

I guess I'm looking for a reason to describe this as wrong or justify making it illegal, but I can't find anything other than the ick factor. Sure, there's a chance that a child could be born with health problems, but is that any more severe than a child with two unrelated parents who both carry a recessive disease-causing allele? If incest is considered wrong for the damage it can do to the child, isn't it also necessary to condemn otherwise unrelated people who share certain alleles from having sex? Should we ban or condemn all breeding by people who carry certain genes that result in severe illness? If not, is there really anything wrong with incest?

thespian86 · 09-23-2008, 03:53 AM

That was a very interesting article. I can see what you're saying inBOIL, about love being love, no matter the face. Their encounters, though seemingly nonchalant to her, are quite obviously causing her some serious social and emotional strife at this point in her life.

I think she says it best when she says, "going on to say that she was sure that many people experimented sexually with them as they grew up and then simply grew out of it. She said it was like practising your social skills on your family and so long as it was mutual, she couldn't see the harm". The point being that perhaps it is normal to be curious but simply uncool to continue with it. She never grew out of it. And it's not so much the ick factor that gets me, which is certainly there; it's more that it seems she is psychologically damaged.

I don't have much to add as I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to psychology but this has to do something to you.

Nisses · 09-23-2008, 04:15 AM

I guess her point is that all the strife this is causing her is society's fault for stigmatizing it rather that an actual problem.

To me however, it does seem as though she's been holding back all her life, limiting her own experiences and exposure to the safe 'nest' where there are people that know each other intimately and share a good deal of their background.
If not damaged, she does seem to lack some social development.

As for the fact of it seeming so right... I think the thrill of doing something you're not supposed to, coupled with the fact that you're having sex would take a very special person to describe as wrong.

However, I'd like to see them both take responsibility if ever she had gotten pregnant...

dlish · 09-23-2008, 04:34 AM

the mother: so who's the father?

Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty

Manic_Skafe · 09-23-2008, 05:01 AM

I'm all for spurning tradition, pushing the limits and redefining sexuality but I don't buy this for a second. Her perspective is far from objective and the fact that they managed to break it off without an accidental pregnancy doesn't make it a-okay.

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..but in between times our relationship was as easy, relaxed and affectionate as ever, with the incredible passion of each encounter quietly banked away until the next time.

I know plenty of fully developed and healthy adults who can't successfully manage a "friends with benefits" relationship. Are we really to believe that at the ages of 14 and 15 these two were more than capable of seeing through all of the difficulties and complexities that trip up adults in normal relationships whilst simply being above all of the issues inherent in an incestuous relationship?

Just like Juno, kids aren't that smart. That's the reason why they're children. I'd be more than willing to believe or at least open up to an honest discussion on the subject but this woman is either lying or telling half of the truth.

abaya · 09-23-2008, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty

Yeah, me too--your thread title threw me off as being a personal statement from you, lol. Might be better to throw a pair of quotation marks around that baby.

Cynthetiq · 09-23-2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yeah, me too--your thread title threw me off as being a personal statement from you, lol. Might be better to throw a pair of quotation marks around that baby.

Inboil had an incestuous baby???? Oh wow! rumors! rumors!

this is a dilemma of sorts, since the ideas are about freedom and sexuality. where does the lines cross, where is it really truly unacceptable and why?

I recently worked on one section of the family tree, and well the branches rejoin after 2 generations. Is that far enough? Looks creepy, sounds creepy, but maybe it's not creepy.

Brothers and sisters tho.... creepy.

genuinegirly · 09-23-2008, 07:31 AM

I didn't experience the "ick" feeling you folks are talking about as I read the article.
I don't know what that says about me, but there we go.

abaya · 09-23-2008, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

I recently worked on one section of the family tree, and well the branches rejoin after 2 generations. Is that far enough? Looks creepy, sounds creepy, but maybe it's not creepy.

Sounds like Iceland.

This reminds me of a Drive-By Truckers song (one of my favorite bands)... see note at the bottom, as it's a true story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drive-By Truckers

THE DEEPER IN
By the time you were born there were four other siblings
with your Mama awaiting your Daddy in jail
Your oldest brother was away at a home
and You didn’t meet him til you was nineteen years old

Old enough to know better, old enough to know better
but you took to his jaw line and long sandy hair
How he made you feel like none off the others
and the way he looked at you touched you deep down in there.

So you jumped on his bike and rode into the sunset
but the sequel it started with the next morning sun
and the dew on the bike seat and you all a glow
from the love he put in you and a life on the run.

Now, the District Attorney said He might of forgiven
You had lots of reasons to turn out this way
But He’ll throw you in jail for them four little babies
you made and delivered along the way

Last night you had a dream about a Lord so forgiving
He might show compassion for a heathen he damned
You awoke in a jail cell, alone and so lonely
Seven years in Michigan

Spring 1998 - Athens GA.
{Inspired by a magazine article about the only two people currently serving time in America for consensual brother / sister incest.}
Lyrics by Patterson Hood / Music by Drive-By Truckers
©2003 Soul Dump Music (BMI)
Pedal Steel: John Neff

Halx · 09-23-2008, 07:46 AM

Hey, this is really similar to a story I read on Literotica...

As taboo as society makes incest sound, its a huge fantasy for a lot of people. If you look on the "most popular" section on Literotica, its easily the hottest category. Honestly, I don't think people are hot for their sisters so much as they are intrigued by the different relationship dynamic and the forbidden nature of the act.

Anormalguy · 09-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Experimentation that went way too far; creepy to say the least.

Jozrael · 09-23-2008, 08:49 AM

Honestly I don't see what's wrong with it.

I know that it fucks up the genetics, but seriously. It's a cultural taboo that's pretty meaningless IMO. I've read some incest erotica, not really my thing. Nor would I ever want to have it happen in my life (ewwwwwwwwww xD). But if it's good for TWO other people, then good for them =).

Unconsensual is obviously another story.

Bill O'Rights · 09-23-2008, 08:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Halx

I don't think people are hot for their sisters so much as they are intrigued by the different relationship dynamic and the forbidden nature of the act.

Unless, of course, your sister is really hot.

Seriously, though. I think Halx is right. It's more the taboo nature of the act that titilates us than the actual act itself. But, I have no siblings, so I have nothing to base a comparison on.

Willravel · 09-23-2008, 09:01 AM

I my mind, all consensual romantic relationships are okay, which means everything but children, animals, and rape. Are they for me? No, but who am I to define love?

inBOIL · 09-23-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yeah, me too--your thread title threw me off as being a personal statement from you, lol. Might be better to throw a pair of quotation marks around that baby.

That's what happens when you post at 2 in the morning, these things don't occur to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Unless, of course, your sister is really hot.

You bring up an interesting point; if you don't think your sister is hot, is it because she's not hot, or because she's your sister. Might the main factor standing between you and incest be a sibling's ugliness? Take for example Angelina Jolie. Her brother macked on that, and while he claimed that there was nothing sexual about it, nobody really knows what's going on in your mind.

World's King · 09-23-2008, 09:35 AM

I've been trying to think of a reply for this...

I actually have no opinion. How odd.

Jozrael · 09-23-2008, 09:36 AM

Honestly for me it's a little of both. One, she's not attractive to me, and two, society has made me a bit sketched out about the whole idea. If she was hot (to me) and society didn't ingrain this in me, would the thought have crossed my mind? Possibly, I can't say. But I will reiterate that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. Even with a cross-generation incest, so long as the younger is above the age of consent when the (that sort of) relationship -begins-. Otherwise it's taking advantage, in my mind.

Halx · 09-23-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

I've been trying to think of a reply for this...

I actually have no opinion. How odd.

I have an opinion about your sister.

RangerJoe · 09-23-2008, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

I didn't experience the "ick" feeling you folks are talking about as I read the article.
I don't know what that says about me, but there we go.

I feel the same way.

I think the main reason we feel that it's so wrong is because it was put into the bible and then drilled into society. Don't forget that actually, people were having sex with their family members for thousands of years. Cousins, brothers, sisters. To breed outside the family meant mixing blood, and the rich folks just didn't want to share their sacred genes. (;

Mind you, I would never have sex with my brother or sister. And, I'm not sure how my initial reaction would be if I found out someone was sleeping with THEIR brother or sister. In the long run, though, I honestly don't see it as a big deal.

anti fishstick · 09-23-2008, 10:40 AM

this reminds me of the movie "The Dreamers". I have some mixed feelings about incestual relationships. I suppose if the two consent and don't feel abused or taken advantage of at all, then it shouldn't be such a big stigmatized deal BUT these are two siblings. It can never be a healthy relationship because of that. You limit your life and other relationships that way, IMO. Just like the two from The Dreamers.

CinnamonGirl · 09-23-2008, 11:11 AM

Strange...I just (re)read a book about nearly-incestual siblings, and one of my favorite books deals with brother/sister incest (although at the time it was committed, the two were unaware they were related.) One of the characters said something along the lines of what a few people here have said, that society defines it as wrong, not necessarily individuals, and it's just sort of ingrained into our minds.

*shrug* I wouldn't do it. I don't know anyone who has. But it doesn't seem all that shocking to me.

shakran · 09-23-2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Hey, this is really similar to a story I read on Literotica...

As taboo as society makes incest sound, its a huge fantasy for a lot of people. If you look on the "most popular" section on Literotica, its easily the hottest category. Honestly, I don't think people are hot for their sisters so much as they are intrigued by the different relationship dynamic and the forbidden nature of the act.

it's a fantasy because it's taboo.

people used to get wildly turned on at the sight of a girl's ankle, because it was taboo for a girl to expose it.

It's kind of interesting that people rail against puritanism, yet it is puritanism that makes what we find sexy, sexy. If everyone ran around all day buck naked, then the sight of a naked girl wouldn't be nearly as arousing to guys - -no more arousing than the sight of a clothed attractive girl is to you now.

World's King · 09-23-2008, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I have an opinion about your sister.

I was gonna say the same thing about yours.

Jozrael · 09-23-2008, 12:40 PM

There's a difference between finding it socially frowned upon/illegal to run about naked and having it be socially taboo to have incest with someone. I agree that it's a good thing that we don't all run around naked, and that there is a time and a place for sexy things so that they remain sexy.

But forbidding something, while it may increase the appeal of it, is incredibly damaging to those that actually do partake if they are caught (or even if they aren't!)

curiousbear · 09-23-2008, 01:27 PM

Inbreeding is bad, 100% not acceptible.

Siblings exploring sexuality together is good and sometimes can be safer than with strangers. It could kissing, groping, playing each other etc.
I am personally fine with kids in late teen age exploring sexuality with some one in family who are experienced in sex (than with strangers, than with today friends dont know what tomorrow!!!).

But doing anything with fear of being caught, despised, ashamed, humiliated, punished by everyone around you in a society where we live is CHAOS. It can rip everyone in the family with pain. It doesnt matter whether it is wrong or right. Even if you are strong today and can stand it all, no one knows whether you can stand so for ever!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

the mother: so who's the father?

Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yeah, me too--your thread title threw me off as being a personal statement from you, lol. Might be better to throw a pair of quotation marks around that baby.

So if a TFper had sex with brother, she should feel guilty?

Willravel · 09-23-2008, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousbear

Inbreeding is bad, 100% not acceptible.

This is an interesting point.

I was born with a pretty severe cardiovascular deformation that was life threatening. When I was 18 or 19, I got tested and found out that there was a chance that I could pass along the risk for such a deformation to my biological children (somewhere around 5%, if I remember correctly). Should I be prevented from having children?

Halx · 09-23-2008, 01:48 PM

On the other hand, inbred children have a distinct advantage when swimming.

curiousbear · 09-23-2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I was born with a pretty severe cardiovascular deformation that was life threatening. When I was 18 or 19, I got tested and found out that there was a chance that I could pass along the risk for such a deformation to my biological children (somewhere around 5%, if I remember correctly). Should I be prevented from having children?

No, I definitely wont say that. (But seeing my IQ, life skills I certainly DONT want to have children.)
Inbreeding can cause extinction in few generations
My point is a conduct based on scietific reasoning is easy to understand and acceptible for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

On the other hand, inbred children have a distinct advantage when swimming.

That is a learning for me!!! Really surprised

Infinite_Loser · 09-23-2008, 04:53 PM

100% wrong.

Ayashe · 09-23-2008, 05:46 PM

I couldn't see this for myself, but in the manner of the article there was complete consent. I don't see a huge deal to be honest.

Willravel · 09-23-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by curiousbear

No, I definitely wont say that. (But seeing my IQ, life skills I certainly DONT want to have children.)
Inbreeding can cause extinction in few generations
My point is a conduct based on scientific reasoning is easy to understand and acceptable for me.

Inbreeding doesn't usually cause extinction, but it can remove some genes from the pool. Extinction would mean nothing but inbreeding.

Science dictates that the people with the best genes pair up and create the best children available, but reproduction in humans is a lot more complicated than that. Emotional and intellectual attraction often contradicts the innate reproductive mandates.

World's King · 09-23-2008, 06:05 PM

The British Royal family are the wealthiest land owners in the entire world...

It can't be all bad.

Redjake · 09-23-2008, 07:10 PM

I came into this thread wanting some TFP members fucking their brothers. THE PUBLIC DEMANDS IT

Jozrael · 09-23-2008, 07:11 PM

This request still stand if it's m/m?

inBOIL · 09-23-2008, 07:48 PM

Not a TFP member, but she is fucking a brother:The Ink is Black, The Page is White (NSFW, obviously)

levite · 09-23-2008, 08:45 PM

Questions like this are actually something I think about a lot, being in the midst of dealing with many classes on ethics and moral philosophy.

On the one hand, my first reaction is to note that-- at least for Jews-- incest is prohibited by the Torah, and thus should not be done.

On the other hand, I also have long thought it very healthy that religion does not control what is and is not permissible in a secular society. As an American, my feeling is, as long as it's two consenting adults, and no one is physically harmed, people ought to be free to engage in whatever kind of sexual behavior they please. It's a free country.

Personally, it seems to me that incestuous relationships would inevitably be prone to causing psychoemotional confusion and self/other boundary problems, among other ill effects; but then again, people seem to cheerfully engage in all kinds of sexual behavior that seems unhealthy to me, and appear no worse for it, so what do I know? Probably best not to judge, I expect.

BTW, a friend of mine who's an OB/GYN with a specialty in reproductive assistance therapies let me know that, in her opinion, the genetic issue is a non-starter, since a single close genetic match is unlikely to result in severe abnormalities. Generally, severe abnormalities as a result of incest occur only after prolonged inbreeding, such as among the royal houses of Europe, or even more so, among the royal houses of the Ancient Near East. So she says, at any rate. Not, I add, that it makes me any more comfortable with the idea. But nonetheless, it does make me feel all the more strongly that this probably should be a "live and let live" issue.

Willravel · 09-23-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by levite

BTW, a friend of mine who's an OB/GYN with a specialty in reproductive assistance therapies let me know that, in her opinion, the genetic issue is a non-starter, since a single close genetic match is unlikely to result in severe abnormalities. Generally, severe abnormalities as a result of incest occur only after prolonged inbreeding, such as among the royal houses of Europe, or even more so, among the royal houses of the Ancient Near East. So she says, at any rate.

Whoa, I didn't know this. Thanks!

Martian · 09-23-2008, 09:09 PM

Yeah, the whole genetic deformities thing is a bit of a joke. In most cases, genetic defects are actually the result of a combination of different genes, rather than a single one. While sibling love can potentially lead to a greater expression of recessive traits, the odds of any significant genetically-induced health problems in a first generation inbred baby are not significantly higher than in the general population. On top of that, the risk decreases at an exponential rate as we move to family members who are farther apart, since they introduce greater genetic diversity.

Food for thought: if you go back far enough, we're all inbred.

I do not feel in any way attracted to either of my sisters. None of my cousins do anything for me either. However, if two people are old enough to make this decision competently and decide that this is what they want to do, I have no problem with it. Given the world we live in today, fucking your sister is not the worst thing you could do by any means.

Starkizzer · 09-23-2008, 10:49 PM

I like how this is an ick factor for a brother and sister to be having a sexual relationship and yet men always love to see hot twins doing lesbian acts on one another...hmmm!

I didn't get the ick factor either from reading this article until I thought of my own relationship with my brother. But then as I thought of the differences in her story and mine hers seemed innocent and just confused I guess. She worded her story very well so that it didn't invoke the ick factor other than the fact that its incestual. I agree that when its an older family member forcing a younger and naive family member to do something its horrible. But how do you tell this particular woman, who was obviously not forced, its wrong other than the fact that society tells us its wrong and the little hairs on the back of our necks stand up as warning flags?

Hope I don't have nightmares tonight, guess I should stop reading these kinds of things.

abaya · 09-24-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Food for thought: if you go back far enough, we're all inbred.

You don't have to go very far back in Iceland.

(They actually have an online database here, where every member of the population can type in their ID # and someone else's ID # to get an exact chart of how they are related... the average is about 7 generations back, though I have found some friends/celebrities who are 4 or 5 generations back, related to me). People check it often when dating, I've heard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starkizzer

and the little hairs on the back of our necks stand up as warning flags?

That kind of reaction usually signals that your culture (the one you were raised in) is being messed with. Going against your cultural grain can produce that kind of visceral response. Even though no one is born with culture, it's something that every person is taught from birth, and it almost becomes part of the nerves, over time...

I often had to explain that to anthro 101 students, since it's a way of dealing with culture shock/stress and realizing that the reaction is a cultural one rather than a moral one. They usually freak out a bit when we have a unit on first-cousin marriage as a preferred pattern in some societies, and they have to come down from that American cultural revulsion for such things before we can discuss the issue academically. It's one of the fun things about teaching anthropology.

09-23-2008, 03:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	That was a very interesting article. I can see what you're saying inBOIL, about love being love, no matter the face. Their encounters, though seemingly nonchalant to her, are quite obviously causing her some serious social and emotional strife at this point in her life. I think she says it best when she says, "going on to say that she was sure that many people experimented sexually with them as they grew up and then simply grew out of it. She said it was like practising your social skills on your family and so long as it was mutual, she couldn't see the harm". The point being that perhaps it is normal to be curious but simply uncool to continue with it. She never grew out of it. And it's not so much the ick factor that gets me, which is certainly there; it's more that it seems she is psychologically damaged. I don't have much to add as I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about when it comes to psychology but this has to do something to you. __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

09-23-2008, 04:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	I guess her point is that all the strife this is causing her is society's fault for stigmatizing it rather that an actual problem. To me however, it does seem as though she's been holding back all her life, limiting her own experiences and exposure to the safe 'nest' where there are people that know each other intimately and share a good deal of their background. If not damaged, she does seem to lack some social development. As for the fact of it seeming so right... I think the thrill of doing something you're not supposed to, coupled with the fact that you're having sex would take a very special person to describe as wrong. However, I'd like to see them both take responsibility if ever she had gotten pregnant... __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

09-23-2008, 04:34 AM	#4 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	the mother: so who's the father? Inboil - for a second i thought that you had sex with your brother and you didnt feel guilty __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

09-23-2008, 07:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	I didn't experience the "ick" feeling you folks are talking about as I read the article. I don't know what that says about me, but there we go. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

09-23-2008, 07:46 AM	#10 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Hey, this is really similar to a story I read on Literotica... As taboo as society makes incest sound, its a huge fantasy for a lot of people. If you look on the "most popular" section on Literotica, its easily the hottest category. Honestly, I don't think people are hot for their sisters so much as they are intrigued by the different relationship dynamic and the forbidden nature of the act. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-23-2008, 08:28 AM	#11 (permalink)
Anormalguy After School Special Moralist Location: Large City, Texas.	Experimentation that went way too far; creepy to say the least. __________________ In a society where the individual is not free to pursue the truth...there is neither progress, stability nor security.--Edward R. Murrow

09-23-2008, 08:49 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	Honestly I don't see what's wrong with it. I know that it fucks up the genetics, but seriously. It's a cultural taboo that's pretty meaningless IMO. I've read some incest erotica, not really my thing. Nor would I ever want to have it happen in my life (ewwwwwwwwww xD). But if it's good for TWO other people, then good for them =). Unconsensual is obviously another story.

09-23-2008, 09:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I my mind, all consensual romantic relationships are okay, which means everything but children, animals, and rape. Are they for me? No, but who am I to define love?

09-23-2008, 09:35 AM	#16 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I've been trying to think of a reply for this... I actually have no opinion. How odd. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

09-23-2008, 09:36 AM	#17 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	Honestly for me it's a little of both. One, she's not attractive to me, and two, society has made me a bit sketched out about the whole idea. If she was hot (to me) and society didn't ingrain this in me, would the thought have crossed my mind? Possibly, I can't say. But I will reiterate that I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it. Even with a cross-generation incest, so long as the younger is above the age of consent when the (that sort of) relationship -begins-. Otherwise it's taking advantage, in my mind.

09-23-2008, 10:40 AM	#20 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	this reminds me of the movie "The Dreamers". I have some mixed feelings about incestual relationships. I suppose if the two consent and don't feel abused or taken advantage of at all, then it shouldn't be such a big stigmatized deal BUT these are two siblings. It can never be a healthy relationship because of that. You limit your life and other relationships that way, IMO. Just like the two from The Dreamers. __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

09-23-2008, 11:11 AM	#21 (permalink)
CinnamonGirl She's Actual Size Location: Central Republic of Where-in-the-Hell	Strange...I just (re)read a book about nearly-incestual siblings, and one of my favorite books deals with brother/sister incest (although at the time it was committed, the two were unaware they were related.) One of the characters said something along the lines of what a few people here have said, that society defines it as wrong, not necessarily individuals, and it's just sort of ingrained into our minds. shrug I wouldn't do it. I don't know anyone who has. But it doesn't seem all that shocking to me. __________________ "...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world." "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

09-23-2008, 12:40 PM	#24 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	There's a difference between finding it socially frowned upon/illegal to run about naked and having it be socially taboo to have incest with someone. I agree that it's a good thing that we don't all run around naked, and that there is a time and a place for sexy things so that they remain sexy. But forbidding something, while it may increase the appeal of it, is incredibly damaging to those that actually do partake if they are caught (or even if they aren't!)

09-23-2008, 01:48 PM	#27 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	On the other hand, inbred children have a distinct advantage when swimming. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-23-2008, 04:53 PM	#29 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	100% wrong. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

09-23-2008, 05:46 PM	#30 (permalink)
Ayashe Psycho	I couldn't see this for myself, but in the manner of the article there was complete consent. I don't see a huge deal to be honest.

09-23-2008, 06:05 PM	#32 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	The British Royal family are the wealthiest land owners in the entire world... It can't be all bad. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

09-23-2008, 07:10 PM	#33 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	I came into this thread wanting some TFP members fucking their brothers. THE PUBLIC DEMANDS IT __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

09-23-2008, 07:11 PM	#34 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	This request still stand if it's m/m?

09-23-2008, 07:48 PM	#35 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	Not a TFP member, but she is fucking a brother:The Ink is Black, The Page is White (NSFW, obviously) __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you. Last edited by inBOIL; 09-23-2008 at 11:06 PM.. Reason: added NSFW

09-23-2008, 08:45 PM	#36 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	Questions like this are actually something I think about a lot, being in the midst of dealing with many classes on ethics and moral philosophy. On the one hand, my first reaction is to note that-- at least for Jews-- incest is prohibited by the Torah, and thus should not be done. On the other hand, I also have long thought it very healthy that religion does not control what is and is not permissible in a secular society. As an American, my feeling is, as long as it's two consenting adults, and no one is physically harmed, people ought to be free to engage in whatever kind of sexual behavior they please. It's a free country. Personally, it seems to me that incestuous relationships would inevitably be prone to causing psychoemotional confusion and self/other boundary problems, among other ill effects; but then again, people seem to cheerfully engage in all kinds of sexual behavior that seems unhealthy to me, and appear no worse for it, so what do I know? Probably best not to judge, I expect. BTW, a friend of mine who's an OB/GYN with a specialty in reproductive assistance therapies let me know that, in her opinion, the genetic issue is a non-starter, since a single close genetic match is unlikely to result in severe abnormalities. Generally, severe abnormalities as a result of incest occur only after prolonged inbreeding, such as among the royal houses of Europe, or even more so, among the royal houses of the Ancient Near East. So she says, at any rate. Not, I add, that it makes me any more comfortable with the idea. But nonetheless, it does make me feel all the more strongly that this probably should be a "live and let live" issue. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

09-23-2008, 09:09 PM	#38 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Yeah, the whole genetic deformities thing is a bit of a joke. In most cases, genetic defects are actually the result of a combination of different genes, rather than a single one. While sibling love can potentially lead to a greater expression of recessive traits, the odds of any significant genetically-induced health problems in a first generation inbred baby are not significantly higher than in the general population. On top of that, the risk decreases at an exponential rate as we move to family members who are farther apart, since they introduce greater genetic diversity. Food for thought: if you go back far enough, we're all inbred. I do not feel in any way attracted to either of my sisters. None of my cousins do anything for me either. However, if two people are old enough to make this decision competently and decide that this is what they want to do, I have no problem with it. Given the world we live in today, fucking your sister is not the worst thing you could do by any means. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

09-23-2008, 10:49 PM	#39 (permalink)
Starkizzer Hi floor! Make me a samwich. Location: Ontario (in the stray cat complex)	I like how this is an ick factor for a brother and sister to be having a sexual relationship and yet men always love to see hot twins doing lesbian acts on one another...hmmm! I didn't get the ick factor either from reading this article until I thought of my own relationship with my brother. But then as I thought of the differences in her story and mine hers seemed innocent and just confused I guess. She worded her story very well so that it didn't invoke the ick factor other than the fact that its incestual. I agree that when its an older family member forcing a younger and naive family member to do something its horrible. But how do you tell this particular woman, who was obviously not forced, its wrong other than the fact that society tells us its wrong and the little hairs on the back of our necks stand up as warning flags? Hope I don't have nightmares tonight, guess I should stop reading these kinds of things. __________________ Frivolity, at the edge of a Moral Swamp, hears Hymn-Singing in the Distance and dons the Galoshes of Remorse. ~Edward Gorey