Dragonlich

Anyone (outside of the Netherlands) heard this news? A rather famous Dutch columnist and filmmaker, known for his outspoken views on religion in general, and Islam in particular, was murdered last week (november 2nd) by an Islamic fundamentalist guy. The murderer was a second generation Dutch-Moroccan, born and bred in the Netherlands.

<a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/02/netherlands.filmmaker/index.html">Link to story</a>

I posted this story in order to highlight the growing unrest in my country. People are pissed off about this, and many Muslim immigrants don't seem to understand why.

Just to provide some background material:
- Muslims, specifically of Moroccan descent, are angry at being linked to the murderer. They see the murderer as an insane deviant, who isn't even a real Muslim (because of his crime).
- Some Muslims say that van Gogh deserved to be murdered because of what he said. Some say he didn't deserve it, but they can understand the murderer. Some say he didn't deserve it, but that he should have expected it.
- A lot of native Dutch people have been angry at Moroccans in general for a while now, for their unwillingness to "blend in". There have been many incidents of Moroccan kids being a pain in the arse to other people. Only two weeks ago there was a story on the news about a Dutch family practically forced to move from a predominantly Moroccan street; the kids there bullied them on a daily basis, until they finally left. There's Moroccan kids calling Dutch girls whores, there's Muslim clerics denouncing gay people as diseased, there's Moroccan kids playing soccer with packs of flowers on our national day of mourning for the deaths of WW2... tons and tons of stories, all supposed to be "incidents".
- A lot of the Muslim immigrants, specifically Moroccans, have a hard time getting a job. Partly because of their lower social class and education, partly because of the bad examples set by some of their kin.

Now, what do outsiders think of this? Does anyone know how we can get out of this mess?

Ustwo

I heard about it but another post about Islamic intollerance wouldn't make a difference.

Want to get out of it? Close the border to them before its to late.

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tecoyah

Solid solution ....we all know how well isolationist countries fare in the long run.

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Ustwo

Closing the border does not equal isolationist, not by a long shot.

The two are not related at all in fact. You can be isolationist with an open border, you can be active in world affairs with a closed one.

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splck

Since that's not going to happen, why even bring it up?

I read about this murder, I may be wrong, but it seemed like a one-off rather than a trend....I might be out to lunch though...

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Dragonlich

Well... it's a bit late for that. There's over a million Muslim immigrants, with a total population of 16 million, and they're getting more kids than the natives...

The Dutch government is doing *something*, though. They're talking about taking away dual nationalities (Dutch *and* Moroccan) from people that misbehave too much (violent crime), allowing us to expel them. They're doing what they should have done years ago.

A problem is that the more we do to stop Islamic extremism, the more moderate Muslims will feel unwelcome and misunderstood, making some of them turn to extremism as a response...

Dragonlich

It's indeed a first. However, it's the second murder of a prominent Dutch "right-wing" person in the past few years (against none in the decades before). It's more of an escalation of a process that was already underway. Other Dutch anti-Islam politicians have been threatened in the past, and this has continued after the murder; some people are afraid to speak out because of it. Dutch people fear another such murder is going to happen soon...

So, although it's a one-off, it's part of a dangerous trend.

ARTelevision

Yes. It has gotten nationwide TV coverage here.
Terribly sad but in some sick way not surprising anymore.

I came across the story below as well.
Is it too alarmist to accurately reflect the sense of things there?
...............

Netherlands braces for 'jihad'


By Anthony Deutsch
ASSOCIATED PRESS


THE HAGUE — The Dutch government yesterday vowed tough measures against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found spiked with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Muslim attacker.
A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders — including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament — to take on bodyguards.







The document, attached to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An Open Letter to [Aayan] Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Mr. van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.
Miss Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.
"Death, Ms. Hirsi Ali, is the common theme of all that exists. You and the rest of the cosmos cannot escape this truth," the letter said.
"There will come a day when one soul cannot help another soul. A day that goes paired with terrible tortures, ... when the unjust will press horrible screams from their lungs.
"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.
"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.
Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Mr. van Gogh's slaying a declaration of Islamic jihad, or "holy war."
"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."
Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.
Mr. Zalm said the intelligence service, which already has expanded since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, would receive more funding to help it monitor potential terrorist recruits.
The suspected killer in the van Gogh case, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national, was arraigned on six terrorism-related charges.
Mr. van Gogh, a descendant of 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, was fatally shot and stabbed Tuesday while cycling down an Amsterdam street. The remains of the provocative social commentator and author, whose throat was slashed in the attack, will be cremated Tuesday in a public service.
The slaying is testing already strained relations between the ethnic Dutch population and the Muslim community. There are about 300,000 Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands out of a population of 16 million.
Mr. Zalm said talks were ongoing with Muslim groups over how to avoid a violent backlash against Muslims.
Arsonists are believed to have set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, police spokesman Peter Keijzers said. There were no reports of injuries.
Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary speaker for the nationalist People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), the second-largest party in the government of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, issued a statement that called Mr. van Gogh's slaying tantamount to a declaration of war.
"The jihad has come to the Netherlands and a small group of jihadist terrorists is attacking the principles of our country," he said. "I hope the Netherlands will now move beyond denial and do what is fitting in a democracy — take action.
"These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said.
The terrorist threat left by Mr. van Gogh's killer carries the ideology of a terrorist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or "Repentance and Flight," which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch press reported.
Chief prosecutor Leo de Wit said the suspected killer, identified only as Mohammed B., faces at least six terrorism-related counts, including charges of murder and "participating in a criminal organization with terrorist characteristics."
The suspect, wounded in the leg in a shootout with police, has refused to talk to investigators. He was arrested with a note in his pocket titled "Drenched in Blood."
Authorities arrested eight other suspects in Mr. van Gogh's slaying and are looking into any links between the suspects and foreign terrorist groups.
Two suspects were released, Mr. de Wit said yesterday. Six will be charged with conspiring to commit murder, he said.
Prosecutors said all are Islamic radicals of North African ancestry. Four also were arrested Oct. 23 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack but were released for lack of evidence. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament the four had contacts with a suspect in last year's Casablanca bombings.

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Ustwo

Words won't make it go away.

Either you fight it, or you are beaten by it.

Europe is getting ready for another fight against Islam, and most don't even know it. It is best to start this fight now, as each year you let it go it will only be harder to win. I have a very good Dutch friend, and hes been warning me about this since 1996 (and he is a left wing socialist, 55 years old).

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roachboy

great answer, ustwo
just what we need now
the "logic" of religious war.

and so the most bankrupt elements of samuel huntington's "clash of civilization" thesis persist, continue to "inform" thinking on where we are today.

excellent.

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Ustwo

Keep your head in the sand and maybe it will go away.

Excellent.

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roachboy

what i am saying, ustwo, is that your entire position is not defensable.
islam as the enemy in itself.
well, that is certainly the way to a far right position on the matter.
that way you get to act as though you have a handle on the situation at hand in holland, say, without having to interact with teh complexity of it, and maybe indulge a little good ole american racism as a side benefit.

yes, islam as a whole is clearly the problem.
maybe they should all be forcibly converted to american style protestant fundamentalism and there would be no problems in the world.
its just as ann coulter said it is.
and we all know what a great thinker she is.

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it make you sick.

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Dragonlich

The "open letter" that was planted on the body of van Gogh was apparently a mixture of internet-based anti-Jewish propaganda, extremist Islamic bits and a lot of pure anger. According to a leading Islamic scholar, the murderer has cut 'n pasted various bits of info, took the bits literally, and used them to pretend the end result was justified by his holy scriptures.

He was *not* a loner, though - he was a friend of another guy arrested on terrorism-related grounds a while ago. (there's lots of questions about that - the intelligence service *should* have been following this guy after they learned of the connection, months ago.)

In the past days, there have been a few attempts to attack Muslims and destroy their possessions (including Mosques) - some right-wing Dutch people are trying to increase the tension.

Let's put it this way: a lot of Dutch people, me included, are afraid someone from either side will go too far one day. We're all just waiting for that single spark to light the fuse.

So no, it's not alarmist at all...

roachboy

dragon: could you maybe give a bit more background on this matter? on how the muslim community in holland has surfaced as a cultural politics issue, the role of the far right in it, that sort of thing? everthing i have been reading about this indicates it happened in a complex and unnerving bigger context...that goes beyond the article art posted. links are fine. thanks....

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Dragonlich

Okay, here goes.

The Muslim community started in the 1970's, when we needed a lot of extra workers. We basically said: anyone is welcome. Most immigrants were poor, under-educated men from the hillbilly areas of Turkey and Morocco. Nobody asked them to learn our language (they were supposed to go back anyway). Their culture was interesting and deserved to be celebrated.

After the economic boom times, a lot of them became unemployed, and, naturally, we decided to let them stay and share in our wealth. In fact, we let them bring their family (poor guys must have missed them!).

Fast forward 20 years. The immigrant families are generally poor, under-educated, very traditional in their (Islamic) views, and passed all of that on to their kids. A large subgroup still focus on their former home countries, and mainly watch Arabic satellite television. In their home countries, especially in Morocco, society was responsible for raising their kids (if you did something wrong, anyone could and would stop you). Over here, we don't have that system - the Moroccan parents are very strict, but the Dutch police is *not*.

More and more of the immigrants start living in the big cities (Amsterdam amongst them), while a lot of natives leave for the quiet towns surrounding them. Add to this equation the higher rate of reproduction of Muslim families (4+ kids as opposed to 1 or 2), and we see a problem beginning to emerge.

I'd say you can compare the Islamic youths of today with the US' Hispanic minority. They even use the same images and music to express themselves. The main difference is that they're Muslims, not Christians. And a difference is that we in the Netherlands have had *very* left-wing governments (especially by US standards). Political-correctness and a climate of ignoring problems led to the current situation. At the moment, an overly large part of the prison population is from Moroccan descent, but that's not the only minority that's over-represented, so it's not out of the ordinary.

Some recent situations that led to mutual anger:
- Occasional riots between Moroccan kids and Dutch police, with the police being accused of instigating the riots with their very presence...
- More and more stories about Moroccan youths attacking/robbing poor old Dutch people, all of which get a lot of media attention. Naturally, Muslims see this as one-sided, which is true to an extend.
- More and more stories of Moroccan youths abusing Dutch girls verbally and physically. Everyone claims to have seen it, and every Muslim claims it's isolated incidents by annoying youths.
- After 9/11, there are rather embarrassing reports of (duh!) Moroccan kids celebrating. The Muslim community denies this incident happened, or says it's an isolated incident.
- Pim Fortuyn, outspoken Dutch politician, says a lot of bad things about Muslims (in their view). Most Dutch people agree with what he says, because he's basically telling the truth. Most Dutch politicians are angry at his attack at them and their politically-correct world-view. Fortuyn is murdered by a left-wing animal rights activist, for being a danger to society.
- Last year, we had the whole Remembrance Day situation, with some Moroccan kids playing soccer with wreaths placed at historical sites. The reason is that they're angry at the Jews/Israelis for their actions, and they see the day as a remembrance of dirty Jews. It also emerged that Dutch school teachers have a hard time giving classes about the Holocaust, because Muslim kids tend to protest too much.
- A school decided to ban head-scarves because it interfered with the teaching - it was a school for sociology, teaching people to deal with kids. They said that someone wearing a headscarf wasn't going to be able to relate to Dutch kids. Muslims were outraged, Dutch people were outraged at that.
- A Moroccan guy was shot by a Dutch-Turkish policeman, for threatening him with a knife. Muslims claimed this was a clear case of racism, Dutch people were outraged at the claim.
- After the murder of van Gogh, news emerged that Muslim youths are not getting their extremism from Dutch Mosques, but are getting it directly from... Saudi-Arabia.

Well, the list goes on and on. All isolated incidents, all getting nationwide press coverage. A lot of Dutch people are starting to feel like strangers in their own country (especially in the big cities), and want to go back to the olde days. A lot of Muslims want the government to intervene, to stop the annoying youths from ruining their reputation. A lot of Dutch people see all Muslims as being the same as that annoying youth, while a lot of Muslims see all Dutch as being racist.

As for the role of the far-right: there's pretty much no such role. There *is* no far-right in the Netherlands. The "worst" (or best) we have is people like van Gogh or Fortuyn, who aren't right-wing at all, but don't like political-correctness, and state the obvious. I'd say the lack of right-wing politicians led to the situation in the first place...

Ustwo

And for that, they are killed.

Sounds great.

Fight now or fight later, thats your choice.

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Dragonlich

Fight whom, pray tell? Fight with what?

Are you suggesting that we kill all Muslims in my country? Or are you suggesting we kick them out? Or should we only fight the extremists?

What exactly are you suggesting???

DJ Happy

It would appear it's all about to kick off there:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3991547.stm

"A Dutch Islamic school has been hit by an explosion, as tensions run high following the murder of controversial film director Theo van Gogh.
The door of the school in the southern town of Eindhoven was damaged in Monday morning's blast.

Police say it could be a revenge attack after the killing of Mr van Gogh by a suspected Islamic radical last week.

Mosques in several Dutch cities have been the targets of vandalism and failed arson attempts over the weekend.

The explosion in Eindhoven comes a day after Dutch police arrested two men who had allegedly called for the beheading of Geert Wilders, a member of parliament, in the name of Islam.

Mr Wilders has said he will set up an anti-immigration party, following Mr van Gogh's death.

The controversial film-maker was shot and stabbed in Amsterdam on Tuesday.

Several men, all believed to be Islamic radicals, have been arrested."

Dragonlich

DJ Happy, I wouldn't exactly say it's about to kick off. As on the Muslim side, there's a small vocal minority trying to get attention. The idea behind these attacks on Mosques is to get a violent reaction from Muslims, which then leads to more hatred, and (they hope) an explosion of anti-Muslim riots.

I doubt it'll happen soon, though. There needs to be at least a few more "incidents" on both sides before the whole situation explodes. And even then, it'll be the extremist minorities fighting, not the rest of us. As always...

irateplatypus

wow dragonlich... sounds like a difficult situation. i've read things about this happening all over europe in varying degrees. i flew into heathrow a couple years ago for an extended backpacking trip. one of the first things that struck me about london was how many signs were in arabic and the number of middle eastern people. some parts of paris were similar... i wasn't expecting to see that.

i think what you're seeing in the netherlands will be played out in some way all across europe.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

roachboy

the situation is really complicated, it seems--as i think it is in most western european countries where you have parallel things happening--but it seems that the parallel is quite limited in that you dont have much in the way of far right parties invovled in stirring the pot (as you do with the front national in france).

i was reading about right politics in holland, however, and it sounds like there are some significant groupings that have emerged in the past few years---

i have been looking around a bit on fortuyn--i can see from the various summaries that they are confusing if you try to map them straight onto other right movements in europe: like this does:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,8542,711990,00.html

either way, this does not look pretty.
and i expect that there is an extreme right, that it might be growing a little now, and that it is filling with people who think like ustwo.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Lebell

*raises hand*

I guess I'm starting to think that way too.

While we could argue percentages of who is radical and who is not, the fact remains that if you get killed by 5% vs 50% you are still dead.

I am beginning to think that radical islam and hate speech from it should be treated like Nazism in Germany; engage in it and you are arrested, and if possible, deported.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Ustwo

Which is exactly what I mean by fight.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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roachboy

this is crazy:

to go from a complex situation (holland) about which it is really difficult to work out a clear sense of what exactly has been happening--i know the parallel scenario in france pretty well but am waiting to learn more before i try to map the two onto each other--because i dont think it works well---to a call for religious war is wrong.

it is wrong analytically: all you do is recapitulate the logic of the far right, which is itself a party to creating this conflict.

it is wrong politically in that it abandons having to interact with situations in favor of a murderous simplicity.
.
it is wrong ethically. when i read this, i think about how this same logic would impact on me, on those close to me who are muslim. it is irresponsible to indulge this kind of racist logic. particularly if you are going to cover it by accusing the "enemy" of being fascist.

i find it unnerving, the ease with which folk are able to make move uncritically.
just goes to show that we have learned almost nothing from the last century and its flirtation with this kind of thinking.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Lebell

There is a difference between moving uncritically and between getting the job down.

There is also a difference between moving critically and overanalyzing a problem to the point of mental gridlock.

I see neither Ustwo nor myself advocating "religious war" as you put it.

What I do see us and Dragonlich advocating is common sense, i.e. act or die.

This does not preclude further thought, nor does it advocate a steadfast, unwavering, and unanalyzed course of action.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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roachboy

what is "the job" then?

i would be interested in seeing how you could read ustwo's posts in particular and argue that what is being adovated is not some kind of "war on islam" cloaked as "war on muslim extremists" which you do not and cannot define--particularly not in this context.

i see maybe little other than "common sense" as well, but i doubt we have the same relation to the term.

caveat: this is getting into an area of great sensivity at my end---it does not please me at all to see how easy it seems to be becoming to elaborate waht i view here and have veiwed as basically racist arguments with the figleaf of pseudo-precision brought into the mix by the term "extremism"--if you are seriously going to link what is going on in holland to this category, then you would need to make the argument and not simply revert to the category. which would mean that the burden of argument rests on you. so please, make the argument: even by trying maybe i can see this as a different kind of conversation.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

powerclown

source

I would say that its just a simple coincidence of numbers. A splinter radical minority of such a huge number is a huge number. In the case of the Dutch filmmaker who was killed, I can see this happening to anyone taking a controversial stand of a religious nature. This could have happened to a person speaking out sharply on Catholic matters, or Christian matters, or Jewish matters. I would imagine there are radicals motivated enough to kill whoever speaks out against any given faith.

ARTelevision

Dragonlich, thanks for the concise yet penetrating and insighful recounting and analysis (post #15) of the situation there. Seeing the way things go in a political climate much different than we have here in the US helps us to comprehend the scope and scale of the fundamental problems we face as a global civilization - culture clash, indeed.

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powerclown

...And just to quickly add, that I do think that such attention given to singling out one religion - and the largest one, at that - as being the cause of all the world's ills is a dangerous precedent to set. Obviously, there are radical elements present in all religions. They need to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and they need to be dealt with comprehensively.

Strange Famous

how far is this from civil war?

Dutch Muslim school hit by bomb


A bomb explosion has hit an Islamic school in the Netherlands, as tensions run high after the murder of controversial film-maker Theo van Gogh.
Monday's blast in the southern city of Eindhoven caused heavy damage, destroying doors and windows.

Police say it could be a revenge attack for the killing of Van Gogh by a suspected Islamic radical last week.

Mosques in several Dutch cities have been the targets of vandalism and failed arson attempts in recent days.

The Eindhoven explosion - which occurred around 0230 GMT on Monday - was caused by a "strong bomb or explosive", a police spokesman told the BBC News website.

Windows in neighbouring buildings were shattered, he added. No-one was hurt.

Police are investigating possible links between the attack and Van Gogh's killing.

Backlash?

The authorities have been on alert for revenge attacks on Muslims.

Over the past three days attempted attacks against Muslim targets have been reported in the cities of Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Breda and Huizen.


Van Gogh directed TV series and wrote newspaper columns
The film-maker was shot and stabbed in Amsterdam on Tuesday.

Several men, all believed to be Islamic radicals, have been arrested.

The Dutch government has vowed to take tough action against Muslim militants.

Police say they found a letter signed by an unknown group on Van Gogh's body containing threats to kill liberal politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Ms Hirsi Ali is a Somali refugee who wrote the script to Van Gogh's controversial film Submission, which criticised the treatment of women under Islam.

On Sunday Dutch police arrested two men who had allegedly called for the beheading of Geert Wilders, a member of parliament, in the name of Islam.

Mr Wilders has said he will set up an anti-immigration party in the wake of Van Gogh's death

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3991547.stm

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Aladdin Sane

The truth is that many of us are becoming afraid to a more or less degree. The root of this fear is rational-in fact, there are a very large number of these Islamofacist barbarians who have infiltrated western nations with the intent of doing us harm. In public pronouncements they have made clear their goal. They desire nothing less than the destruction of Western liberal society-- the assassin of Theo van Gogh being a clear example of their method and goal. Part of the note left on van Gogh's body said, "I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down . . ." This Islamist killer is one of many who are working for our absolute destruction.

The real question is how to deal with this threat. Perhaps it is easier to discuss first how we must NOT respond. A pervasive, irrational fear is more dangerous to us than to those who wish us harm. The suggestion of a mass deportation to Arabia is unquestionably premature, as many American Arabs and Muslims also loath the jihadists, and will prove to be important allies in clandestine operations. The opposite response, denial, will also prove to be self-destructive. It is fashionable among some in the United States to deny that we are, in fact, at war. When discussing the enemy, I've had left-leaning friends (Michael Moorean types) say to me with a sneer, "Who are they?," as if the they that flew airplanes into the World Trade Center towers, the they that cut off the heads of innocents in Iraq, the they that murdered Spanish commuters, as if they are some kind of mythical Islamic Sasquatch!

As for Holland, welcome to the nightmare. The Islamists won't be defanged by a change in your behavior. Throwing more Gilders (gee I miss those) at Arafat or the Iranians won't help you. Continued self-loathing over your imperialistic history won't make you safe, only more despicable. Loud denounciations of Israel will only make them loathe you as a coward. Never forget: your enemy is not annoyed at your behavior. He is sickened by your being. You are the infidel, and he knows that Allah wants you dead.

The U.S. election results show that the majority of Americans understand this enemy. A majority of Americans have come to the conclusion that the only answer is to identify the enemy and kill him before he kills us.

So the question is, do the Dutch have the resolve to kill the snake before the snake kills them? Do they?

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powerclown

I understand why Allah wants America to burn in hell, but why does he also want The Netherlands & Europe at large to burn in hell, too? Europe isn't protecting the Saudis or Israelis are they? Europe isn't trying to democratize Iraq. What's the beef with The Netherlands and the rest of Europe? Doesn't the Muslim World just want to be left alone in peace, as bin Laden has repeatedly said?

Ustwo

Europe has been at war with Islam since the first invasions. Europe escaped a full Islamic invasion due to the dying remnants of the Roman empire making a remarkable defense. They eventually fell but they bought Europe time. Time to advance and grow strong enough to resist, and even take back a little that was lost.

Our very nature these days makes us forget this. We have changed, but many of them have not. Our cultures are not compatible.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

fibber

There's no question that, particularly in the States, the response requires the most carefull of treading.

Don't think for a moment the fact is lost on the nasties that the most effective way to deal with terrorist threats is to circumvent the rights we hold most dear here.

Many could pose a valid arguement that in some small measure they have succeded. Some of the provisions made in the name of homeland security have invariably changed to some degree, for good or bad, the way we live.

The question of course that causes this rift in people is where do we draw the line? Fucked if I know.

I think many, like myself, just feel entirly overwhelmed by the enorimity of the situation. I'm from a generation too young to have an undiluted concept of the magnitude of presence of the fight for Civil rights, or the possible implications of an world event like the 2nd World War.

This will in no doubt be one of the times I will look back on later and see as defining part of my existance.

I cant dismiss ustwo's opinions or any that differ even if I find them somewhat brash, to dismiss is to eliminate options which might be the most dangerous thing of all. Agree or disagree, I don't fault them for an outlook.

If there is such a thing, this is most certainly a no win situation.
Regardless of how it's handled some will have to think the handling was wrong, it's the nature of the beast.

As to the importance that the extremists are a minority, One can't deny that the actions of a minority will undoubtedly change the opinion of the group as a whole to outsiders. The first example that comes to mind is the Klan. Denounce them as we may, those crazy bastards make all us crackers look worse.

Religion by it's nature is one powerfull effect. Mix violence with religion and you get one bad son of a bitch. Look at the problems in Ireland. There's no way in hell you could get people to hate that much over trivialities like money or politics. I'm not religious myself but my family was, love it or loath it, it's foolish to deny the potency of it's effects, either good or bad, on a persons life.

man I'm ramblin', I'll stop there for a bit.
-fibber

roachboy

in general i agree with powerclown (no. 29)

i find arguments like ustwo's entirely ahistorical, for all their tossing about of "historical" data--it operates at such a level of generality as to be arbitrary. it is the logic of a religious crusade--and at this point i doubt anyone could seriously argue that ustwo has not been advocating religious war the whole time on this thread. the only caveat there is so far is that, according to the post above, there has always been such a war. so he need not call for something that is already ongoing.

the viewpoint is perfectly consistent with what you would find talking to jean-marie le pen or bruno megret or any of a wide range of neofascist organizations in western europe. point for point.

i still maintain that the onus is on the folk from the right to make specific their notion of "extremist"--without some social specificity, it simply becomes a pretext for attacking whomever you do not like.

worse still, it slots directly into the self-confirming logic of the far right in europe (and in the states). here is an idea of how the pattern goes:


you draw a discursive line around a population--say muslims--now they are outside the community of "americans" or "dutch" folk----which in turn gets defined along ridiculous lines--now "they" are muslim and "we" are christian--a set of wholly inoperative terms in the modern world, which is built around the notion of a secular state---are made operational again because of the actions of the right.

from start to finish, this drawing of a line is about something othere than what motivates it--say shrinking job possibilities, a sense of insecurity, wahtever--it is a diversion from the beginning.

next step is usually this: a sequence of actions might follow that make the community you have quarantined feel under direct attack--how do you expect them to react?--usually this action gets reciprocated, or is presented as if there had been reciprocity--now the conflict appears justified on the lines set out by the far right to being with.

and sometimes you land here: someone does something stupid--maybe something like the murder at the top of the thread--and in order to jsutify a murder, makes a letter linking himself to the discourse of "extremism" in general: now all brakes are off, the right logic of "exclude the aliens" finds a foothold.


every step of this is the typical pattern followed by radical right movements in the last century. every step was grounded "empirically" in exactly this way.
this discourse is racist.
it is dangerous.
the only thing that is of any solace seeing how easily folk here fall into it is that none of you have any power politically.


fact is that the category of "extremist" assumes that you cannot define it.
if you invest in the discourse, you have no real interest in defining it.
they are, everywhere and always, where you say they are.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Aladdin Sane

Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with behavior or with foreign policy. It has to do with who they are. It has to do with unalterables. To the jihadists, American, Dutch, French-- it matters not-- because are all evil westerners. The only thing we can do to satisfy them is die. Got it?

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

martinguerre

That is exactly what the Nazis said about communism. Yeah.

I agree with Dragonlich:
Fight who? Fight what?

Fighting is the exact problem that started it all. Trying to bring any of these issues to a forcible resolution is just going to be more blood.

Ustwo...that's a statement of fear, plain and simple.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

Ustwo

No, thats a statement of history.

We have had our heads in the sand too long, hoping they would adopt our way of life in our lands.

Its not going to happen.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

fibber

I use the term extremist simply because it has a generally accepted social definition. I need to define a subset of an immense group like "folk from the right". I use the term specifically to make sure that I don't include anyone disagreeing with their tactics. If there's a term that would be certain to not to become a pretext for attacking others I'll be all over it.



-fibber

martinguerre

To our great surprise, they did not like being treated as second class citizens, kept in poverty and subjected to racism. How this prevented adoption of Western values is not yet known.

__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16