wonderwench

Money.

Think about it. He has become fabulously wealthy bashing Big Business, America and the Right (especially Bush). His support of Nader may actually have cost Gore the election - but Bush's win has been a boondoggle for Moore. In 2004, it is also likely that Moore will influence younger voters to support Nader - and ensure Bush's re-election.

And he will cry all the way to the bank.

Rich White Trash

Michael Moore has been making a lot of money the past four years at George Bush’s expense. If Bush is re-elected, Moore should continue to do very well making his propaganda movies and authoring his “humor” books attacking the President. Bush in office is, after all, very good copy for Moore’s business, which consists almost wholly of making money by ridiculing others. So perhaps it is no surprise that Moore is one of those responsible for getting Bush elected in 2000. And more to the point, he may help re-elect Bush this time as well, whatever his avowed purpose in making the movie.

Moore’s new screed, Fahrenheit 911, opened nationally this weekend in about 900 theatres. The movie, the top prize winner at Cannes, may make more money for Moore than his previous film, the Oscar winning Bowling for Columbine. The best-known movie reviewers have been pretty much unrestrained in their praise for the movie (A. O. Scott, Roger Ebert, Kenneth Turan). The charge by Moore and the Weinstein brothers at Miramax that the Disney Corporation was trying to prevent the movie from being distributed (a completely false story of course), helped to create early buzz for the film even before its initial showing at Cannes. Moore, a millionaire many times over already, may not be in Mel Gibson’s league as a Hollywood money machine, but he has been equally adept at creating controversy for his books and movies, which creates a bigger audience for them, and more cash to fill those very large pockets on his trousers or overalls.

Moore does not look like the kind of guy the Hollywood elites would love. Other than on The Sopranos, there are very few jobs in Hollywood for people who look like Michael Moore. But Moore has been the creator of an unending string of nasty mocking portrayals of the President, red meat for the condescending “coastals” and lefty “bobos” of blue state America. Each of Moore’s recent books and movies has been fact-checked and proven wanting by those who took the time to do so. That has not mattered to Moore’s ready-made audience.

Add to this a general incoherence on political message, other than viciousness towards the President, Israel and corporations, Moore’s axis of evil. As Christopher Hitchens has noted, Moore seems to be saying in Fahrenheit 911 that we went to war in Afghanistan for Texas oil and gas interests, who wanted to build a pipeline through the country. Yet he also seems to be saying that Iraq was a mistake because it diverted our attention from going after bin Laden with greater force strength and finishing the job in Afghanistan. As Roseanne Roseanna Danna might have said on Saturday Night Live when confronted with an obvious inconsistency, “Never mind”.

Thematic incoherence does not matter when the goal is to create enough scatter shots at Bush and his cronies to keep the audience both laughing and angered. It is the anger part, however, where the movie will likely have its payoff.

Moore says he is not in Ralph Nader’s camp this time, as he was in the 2000 election. Moore is now fighting-off charges that ads for his film will violate campaign finance laws. During the primary season, Moore endorsed General Wesley Clark. If Moore feels bad about Bush being President, he certainly had something to do with it. During the 2000 campaign, I attended a Nader rally in Chicago. The speakers included such political theorists as Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam, talk show washout Phil Donohue, Studs Terkel, and Moore. Terkel told the audience that because he lived and voted in Illinois, it was safe to vote for Nader, since Gore would carry the state in any case. Moore was more unabashed in his enthusiasm for Nader. He accompanied the traveling Nader team in appearances across the country, including many contested states.

Since the 2000 election, Moore has made the “stolen” election of 2000 in Florida a major theme of his book (Stupid White Men). The stolen election charge is categorically false. But if Moore feels guilty about his helping Nader win over 90,000 votes in a state that was decided by only 537 votes, it would be important for him to show that Gore really won the state despite Moore’s best effort to make Nader a successful spoiler.

Of course, a Gore presidency would never have created the economic opportunities for Moore that the Bush White House has. And a Kerry Presidency won’t either. So it is important to evaluate what impact his current film will have on the campaign. If you already hate Bush, you are part of a ready-made audience for Fahrenheit 911. If you enjoy mocking him in the company of fellow travelers, then it will be close to a religious experience to build your wrath at the President for two hours. It is possible that several million people will see Moore’s “documentary” before the November election.

Moore says he hopes that young people, who don’t vote in large numbers, will see the movie and then choose to throw Bush out in November. Maybe this will happen. But there is another possibility. That is that the Moore audience will find John Kerry just a bit too bland for their tastes, too white bread, given the higher order Bush loathing that Moore’s movie will help create. If this is the case, then Ralph Nader, with his unrestrained attacks on corporations and big oil, Bush, and Texas, Israel, and the war in Iraq, will seem a lot more palatable, as James Pinkerton suggests.

This is an audience that has been prepared for Moore by Paul Krugman, Molly Ivins and their ilk. After seeing Fahrenheit 911, how many in the audience will become enthusiastic partisans for John Kerry, the man who voted for the $87 billion for Iraq, before he voted against it, and who voted for the Iraq war resolution in the Senate? The Moore partisans are a far-left subset of the Howard Dean forces, who represent the most un-nuanced portion of the American political left.

Can this group fall in love with John Kerry? Will Moore’s movie help them do so? In some national polls, Nader has been running north of 5%, more than double his performance in 2000. This is an unrealistic assessment of how he will likely do in November, since he may not be on the ballot in as many states as in 2000, and he may be the candidate of different parties in different states. But the hard left that will cheer Fahrenheit 911 includes a lot of people who will find greater psychic reward in the Nader camp than the Kerry camp, particularly among the young who are not likely to be so pragmatic in their voting selection. In a conversation in New York just after the movie opened this week, Moore provided some empirical evidence that this may well occur, describing a college audience of 200 who viewed the movie, after which half said they would vote for Nader.

Inevitably, as reported in the New York Times on its front page Friday, Kerry will shift his themes towards the center, since that is how he can best appeal to those who are not in ether of the two partisan camps -- the muddled middle or swing voters. This is hardly surprising. With a sharply divided electorate, there are few swing voters to fight over, and a highly partisan campaign won’t be very appealing to them.

If there is some possibility that the Moore movie will push leftist partisans to Nader, how about the swing voters? Will the Moore movie push them towards Kerry? I doubt it. First, I don’t think most swing voters are a natural audience for Michael Moore movies. Second, though swing voters may have doubts about Bush and Iraq, they also don’t loathe him personally, as Moore does. The Moore movie may make them uncomfortable, just as his intemperate rant during the 2003 Academy awards show probably did.

In a recent column, Dick Morris, the former advisor to and now fulltime Clinton deconstructionist, suggested that the former President’s new book will likely have a negative effect on the Kerry campaign. Morris has been arguing for some time that the two Clintons want Kerry to lose, but not get wiped out. A Bush blowout win might severely damage the party. But a Kerry win would be worse for the perpetual Clinton family campaign, since it would mean that Kerry would be re-nominated in 2008, and deprive Hillary of her shot at the White House until 2012 at the earliest, when she would be 65 years old. And then, she would have to compete for the nomination with other ambitious politicians, including Kerry’s sitting Vice President, perhaps a younger candidate such as John Edwards. The nomination in 2012 will not be hers for the asking, as it might be in 2008, if Kerry were defeated this year.

Morris argues that the new Clinton book with its inevitable focus on the Monica issue will leave a subtle message that is good for President Bush. Namely, all this sordidness on the personal side has disappeared since Bush’s election. Say what you may about his policies, he has not personally disgraced the White House. Laura Bush is appealing and not controversial. The Bush daughters have largely stayed out of the limelight. Family has been safe ground for this Administration. For undecided voters, this is a message that the Clinton book may bring to mind. So why did Clinton need to get his book out during this election year?

Odd as it sounds, there may be a strategic partnership between Clinton and Moore as regards the election. Moore is a capitalist at heart, regardless of his faux affections for laid-off auto workers in Flint. There are autoworkers in Kentucky and Tennessee now producing more efficiently-made Japanese brand name cars than were produced in Flint, before the factories closed there. Companies that can’t compete will fail, a lesson Moore has never learned, as evidenced by his tiresome screeds directed at General Motors. There is also no evidence of Moore giving his newly-minted millions away to his favorite causes that now presumably have greater needs under the Bush corporate welfare regime.

Moore seems to revel in the adulation of his fans in his speeches at colleges, and when addressing movie audiences. Given his looks, Moore was probably not the most popular guy in his high school class. The accolades have come later in life, and are undoubtedly appreciated, and may have gone to his head. As David Brooks describes in the New York Times, Moore is now the most sought-after America-bashing speaker around the world. Get a very overweight American man to claim that Americans are ugly and stupid, and America-hating people in Europe, whatever their appearance or brainpower, will cheer. As Mathew May has written, the fact that leading Democratic Party elected officials pay tribute to Moore and his toxic message is evidence of the decay of a once significant political party.

But Moore is above all a skillful manipulator of his audiences’ or readers’ emotions. He has mixed his poison with humor, and thereby reached a much larger crowd. And that manipulation has led to a very fat wallet.

For Bill Clinton, there is both power and money at stake in the coming election. Dick Morris has made the case for the power side. But the money side matters too. During his administration, Clinton partisans excused the sex, and argued that in any case, it was never about money with Clinton. Now the former President charge synagogues $250,000 for an hour talk on why Yasser Arafat disappointed him. He and his wife have earned over $20 million between them so far for two very bad books. Their money is not, for the most part, going to charity either. As both Moore and Clinton must realize, this is a great country. Make it while you can. The celebrity left has not gotten any poorer during the Bush years. For both Moore and Clinton, it is probably in their interest to keep the gravy train rolling. Follow the money.

Charlatan

Yes... money, filthy luche... Just because someone makes money does not make them evil or duplicitous...

I find the whole let's demonize "X" because he/she is just in it for the money a bit tiresome.

Personally, I could care less if Moore makes money from his endeavours... I hope he buys a big fat dwelling in NYC and smokes Cuban cigars.

I don't buy for an instant the argument that he does this to get rich. There are far easier ways to get rich than poking Corporate America with a sharp stick.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

powerclown

I'd agree with you about money, but add power, too. He loves the attention and feeling of importance.

He's been an anti-establisment rabble-rouser since he was a little kid. He was outspoken in high school, went on to become a left-wing journalist and now a left wing movie maker.

I saw BFC, and that's the last time he gets any of my money.

wonderwench

I don't view money as filthey lucre. I love money. It's dang useful stuff.

I just find it incredibly amusing and hypocritical that Moore has become exactly that about which he rants - a rich, powerful white man. If he really were sincere, his profits would be donated to the causes he hawks. Instead, the causes are a shill game to line his own pockets.

Bookman

Michael Moore is NOT a servant of the people. Michael's Moore's work may actually be more of a service to our people than the services provided by those WE PAY! Regardless if he is lining his own pockets is his business and he is exercising his right afforded by the 1st Ammendment.

Why can't people break down what he is saying/communicating in his work rather than attempting to assasinate his character?!?!?

brianna

oh come on -- he's getting paid for what he does just like everyone else. I certainly hope that he's giving a bunch of money to charity (just as i hope for all other wealthy people) and that he's cognoscente of his new economic status but i certainly can't fault the guy for making money. agree with his politics or not but he's done a lot of hard work to get where he is, he deserves the money just as much as the next political humorist.

wonderwench

I believe we already have a thread devoted to deconstructing the lies in Moore's films.

The purpose of this one is to discuss his stated agenda with the actual effects of his message. If his goal is to defeat Bush, then why isn't he throwing his weight behind Kerry, who is the only other candidate with a chance of prevailing?

There is a huge disconnect between what personally benefits Moore and the political stands he takes.

pan6467

Moore is a hypocrit, and probably deep down wouldn't want things to get better because he'd lose a lot of money.

Same with Limbaugh, he would probably deep down prefer Kerry presidntor a dem house or senate so he can make more money. As it stands now when he can't attack the dems he feasts on his own party's moderates for being moderate.

I say we vote out Bush and make the country greater and get rid of both of them.

We need optimism and people wanting to get along and work together, we don't want men getting rich telling us how bad things are.

By the way, does Moore even try to start any rallies or protests or even go to any, besides those from his movies where he's making money and if he donates anything it's a tax deduction for him.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

bodymassage3

I'm sure he's the only one.

onetime2

I agree with everything except the vote out Bush part. If there was a better alternative offered I'd be the first to vote for him. Unfortunately Kerry isn't it.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

wonderwench

Kerry would be a somnambulent disaster.

Yakk

Bush obviously doesn't believe in education, because he has money, and didn't give all his money to teachers.

Bush obviously doesn't believe in defence, because he has moeny, and didn't donate all his money to the military.

Kerry obviously isn't a Catholic because he has money, and hasn't given all of his money to the Church.

Strangely enough, you can support a cause without wanting to give every dime you own to the cause.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

hammer4all

This is just ridiculous.

I've seen countless Moore interviews and the last thing you could describe him as is some kind of selfish money grubber.

Take this interview for example:

Lamb asks him about money and this is part of his answer.
http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1754

His whole progressive political ideology is against it. He is steadfastly against the Bush tax cut, which gives most of the tax "relief" to the rich and even offers it away. He is also known to be highly critical of greedy corporations (see sig). He is, and is an advocate for, the average guy and the right-wing in this county is just unwilling to accept that.

kutulu

All this backlash wouldn't be happening if the right wingers were not afraid of him or the ideas he represents.

roachboy

it is beyond funny seeing the right, which has for years argued that lucre is in itself evidence of personal virtue, now claiming that money-making is now somehow problematic in the case of michael moore.

you would think that they would see moore as salutary---he has managed to survive the rights demolition of public funding for the arts, which has forced artists to shill on the market---he produced an interesting, conversation provoking film--maybe the underlying premise of trying to eliminate funding for the arts hasnt worked out as the right ideologues had hoped--maybe they figured that the "market" and its "discipline" would force artists to capitulate intellectually and creatively, and turn themselves into nice, subservient republicans---it didnt work----and now the right is all in a froth because moore's film is condensing discussions that have been happening everywhere--except of course within the purview of the sustained circle jerk that is right media----about the disaster that is george w bush and the politics for which he stands---boo hoo.

beyond that, i second kuthulu's sentiments--the right is afraid of michael moore because he shows the king is without clothes---
better to smear the messenger than to think about the message.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ARTelevision

One entry found for rabble-rouser.


Main Entry: rab·ble-rous·er
Pronunciation: 'ra-b&l-"rau-z&r
Function: noun
: one that stirs up (as to hatred or violence) the masses of the people : DEMAGOGUE
- rab·ble-rous·ing /-zi[ng]/ noun or adjective

__________________
create evolution

wonderwench

roachboy,

Your punctuation makes following your train of thought a bit difficult.

I've distilled your longrun on sentence into Moore Hates Bush so The Right Is Afraid.

I agree with the first part - but the second half is not accurate. The Right is actually well-served by Moore making a spectacular ass out of himself. The people to whom Moore appeals are not going to vote for Bush in any case - and his extreme viewpoints are just going to alienate any moderate undecideds.

pan6467

I'm not saying he is BUT he screams how unfair things are but is probably one of the first people to make sure he gets his tax deductions.

Yes, the government can do more. Yes, Roger and Me was a great movie. But now he has totally let this fame and fortune go to his head and he is the left's Limbaugh. He makes good points and I agree at the beginning, but he takes everything to an extreme and it just becomes almost irrational.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

kutulu

First of all this is not an English class.
Second, if you are going to criticize and belittle someone's grammar and punctionation please make sure that your statements are gramatically perfect.

Back on topic, if Moore and his message don't scare the right wing, why are they attacking him so vicously. They are doing just about anything they can to stop the movie, discredit the movie, and bring Moore down. Looks like they did a great job.

wonderwench

Commenting that his sentence structure is difficult to follow is not belittling. If we are to have a meaningful discussion, it is better to communicate in an understandable fashion.

As to your comment on the topic. If the Right is so afraid, their tactics have been ineffective. The movie is being shown across the country and is drawing a substantial audience.

roachboy

wonderwench---

i checked the grammar in the first sentence and changed a couple of words so it would be easier----thanks for pointing out that it was confusing.

fact is that it is only in the fantasy-world of conservatives that moore is "making an ass" of himself---rather he takes on the right in terms that are not theirs, makes arguments that run against their politics---and the people on the right are afraid of it.

of course, i do not think that the actually existing people on the right are afraid in a normal sense--rather their sources of infotainment on the order of limbaugh (but running across the gambit of mediocrities that operate as pundits in conservative-land) are worried, and they write columns about their worry, and naturally within a short time, their audience is also worried and they recycle the concerns issued by their pundits of choice pundits of choice, sometimes simply pasting them.

maybe, wonderwench, you should actually see the film.

and the initial post, which attempts to whine about moore's film being a success financially, is simple hypocrisy.

i hope that much was clear.

as for the arts funding linkage, it is an argument--i think the parallel interesting--but if you need me to simplify it for you, i'd be glad to.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

wonderwench

I believe in voting with my dollars. I will not endorse Moore's politics and philosophy by putting money in his pocket. I know enough about his stances via the interviews he gave to promote the film.

roachboy

if you won't see the film, they why are you talking about it?

as for the repetition of opinions generated by your authorized right-wing brand sources, it demonstrates only intellectual servility if you are not even willing to see the film. how can you be so sure that he is wrong if you have no bloody idea what the arguments are?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

wonderwench

I watched a few interviews with Michael Moore speaking for himself. That's enough for me.

I don't need to see the film to know that he has an agenda with which I do not agree and that he has created fiction on several accounts.

ARTelevision

a word of caution is always in order when addressing other members directly in ways that overgeneralize and tend to poorly characterize the member to whom one is speaking/typing.

__________________
create evolution

kutulu

If you don't want to give him money then download the movie.

Watch the movie and take note of his points. The facts he presents are real. You can look them up if you wish. His website even has a page devoted to replying to the attacks against his facts.

wonderwench

I also value my time. Why waste any of it when I have already heard his main message from his own lips? No thank you.

hammer4all

Then what are you doing here, starting a thread and attacking Moore, if you value your time so much?

wonderwench

Believe it or not, I find playing on a message board to be a better use of my time than watching Fahrenheit 9/11. Aint' freedom grand?

kutulu

This is pointless. You can watch all his interviews, read all the BS for and against the movie but you won't really get it unless you see the movie. The guy cares about the little guy. He hasn't sold out yet.

wonderwench

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. The people who work for him in whose unionizing efforts he interfered and the theatre staff in London whom he insulted would probably disagree with your assessment.

By all means, go see his movie. Enjoy!

I just do not care to see it myself.

Zeld2.0

I think it's more dangerous to keep talking about Moore.

He's obviously won if you are spending the time the to talk about how you don't like what he's doing.

If he wants money he's got it. If he wants the attention, he's defenitely got it.

wonderwench

Why is it dangerous to discuss the reality of Moore's agenda? I don't find it so.

brianna

wonderwench: i wouldn't ask you to see a movie which you have no interest in seeing especially when you obviously are not open to whatever facts or opinions are presented in said movie. however, it is not conducive to a discussion for you to express opinions about a film that you have not seen. furthermore, I do not understand why you seem so angry at a man whom you have not met and whose work you have not seen. it's perfectly acceptable to not like moore or his films but i don't see any reason for you to personally attack him or the people who are interested in what he has to say.

Zeld2.0

It's not dangerous to discuss his agenda. But when you are saying you won't care one bit about what he says but can keep bringing him up, I'm thinking there's much more beef to it than simply discussing an agenda.

I don't like to call it an enfatuation and I resisted in doing so in the first place, but that's what it feels like it is.

Tomservo

Unbelievable. Who isn't in it for the money? Bill O'Reilly? Sean Hannity? Rush Limbaugh, who signed the richest contract in radio history?

Absolutely ridiculous. Michael Moore could be ROLLING in dough if he'd clean up his image a little and tone down the "annoying" to a dull roar. Moore bashed Clinton, and Moore bashed Gore. Suddenly when Moore bashes Bush, he's a flaming liberal Democrat, come to overthrow the Republican dictator? Right.

tecoyah

This thread is quite entertaining. The hatred expressed towards Mr Moore by someone who obviously has little understanding of his message, or works is amazing to me. Mind you, I actually dislike Moores way of portraying his "reality" but I do see his reasoning for it. The "Facts" are of course tainted by hollywoodism, but that does not dismiss the core of said facts.
I have seen the latest film, and the vast majority of the information, seems to me accurate if played up. There IS fear in the eyes of the right, and with reason. There have been many obvious lies and mistakes by the administration, and this one movie could make them more clear to the millions who live in ignorant bliss.
Moore power to him, in my opinion.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

wonderwench

You are misinterpreting disgust as anger. Given the fact that Terry McAuliffe and other members of the DNC have embraced Moore - this movie has become part of the political campaign. This is why I question Moore's motives and veracity.

wonderwench

Fascinating. You believe that millions of Americans live in ignorant bliss. So do I - but they are not the same millions.

The fantasy world is the one viewed by those who think America is the Evil Empire and that the despotic, totalitarian regimes which have killed untold millions of their citizens are some sort of proletariat Utopia.

tecoyah

As a response....let me just say.

Rather than get into the same nightmare exchange I have had in the past, with others of your inclination, I will simply bow to your powerful opinion and take my leave.

Hope you have a wonderful debate.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha