Students wearing t-shirts with an American Flag sent home
 

Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees | NBC Bay Area
I can't believe how absurd this is. Since when is it incendiary to represent the American flag in America? I can understand having the kids remove their bandannas since back in my high school we weren't allowed to wear any hats or bandannas on our heads but to turn your shirt inside out? Really? I understand it was Cinco De Mayo, but that isn't even a holiday in this country. In reality, Mexican-Americans should be more insulted that people in this country use their national holiday as an excuse to drink and eat tacos.

If you are going to use the logic the school administrators took, they should throw Jewish kids out of school for wearing a Yarmulke on St. Patrick's Day or someone wearing a cross necklace during Ramadan or Passover. I can't believe how ridiculously some people react to the most inane things.

I'm willing to bet any Mexcian-American at that school didn't even think twice about seeing those kids wear that clothing yesterday.

Thoughts anyone?

I'm not sure where I sit on this. I'm quite removed because I'm Canadian, but I am familiar with multicultural celebrations in Toronto, which happen all the time.

According to what I read in Wikipedia, though, Cinco de Mayo is celebrated more in the U.S. and is generally limited to one state in Mexico. So I suppose it means it's widely considered a Mexican pride day in the U.S. nationally. I wouldn't downplay it as "an excuse" to eat and drink. National pride includes food, drink, music, and dancing--all a part of enjoying your cultural practices of celebration. And it's often a wonderful thing.

I don't think it's the same thing. It would be more akin to some Mexican-American kids wearing Mexican flag T-shirts and Mexican flag bandannas on the Fourth of July, since it's often viewed as a day of American pride, or maybe Patriot Day or Flag Day to a much lesser extent.

I don't know the political/cultural/social environment down there with regard to Mexican-Americans and Caucasian Americans, but I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that such display of American flags (especially if out of the ordinary) could be insulting on such a day. But, like I said, I don't know what it's like. I'm interested to hear other thoughts.

The question is the motive. If the kids wore those flags just to offend others then they should have been sent home. If they wore it because that is what they do it often then they should not have.

What would happen if a bunch of white kids decided to wear a confederate flag on Martin Luther King day and no other days?

It sounds to me these kids did the equivalent of wearing a Vikings jersey into a Packers bar. Sure you can do it but you are looking for trouble if you do it. Now if these kids wear these types of clothes all the time then the administration was wrong. Again this all comes down to motive.

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

Also, here are a few more situations that I would see as unacceptable.

A bunch of students wearing a Star of David or a crescent moon on the day before/after Easter or Christmas. Once the students are doing it to make a political/religious statement in a potentially offensive way they have crossed the line. The administrators chose to remove a potentially offensive distraction for the day. The kids should be happy that they got the day off and their parents who likely put them up to this should get a life.

Yea someone e-mailed me this story at work(buncha tea party types) and my gut reaction is it's an incomplete meant to be inflammatory news story that doesn't contain the information a reader would need to know to make an informed assessment of the situation. On that note yea I'm guessing they were sent home because this sort of dressing up DOESN'T happen all the time, and the administration did what they thought was in the best interest to avoid any fights breaking out.

The kids were trolling and they were handled accordingly.

I see it as a 1st amendment issue. People really need to chill out over non issue's. Especially schools.

When I was in highschool(private catholic school with uniforms) we would have dress down days every few months. I got sent home for wearing a co-ed naked baseball shirt. It had a picture of a runner sliding into home plate. The caption read "slide in head first" it was viewed as sexually inappropriate and I was sent home.

That school is one of the reasons I'm an athiest.

The supreme court has ruled multiple times that the freedom of speech is limited in schools. I believe this case falls within those limits and thus is not a first amendment issue.

Are the kids that wore the t-shirts Mexican? I don't think they did it as blatant disrespect. I wore shirts with U.S. flags and American pride stuff all the time when I went to school, and I was never told to take it off or anything like that. I don't see the big deal, IF they wore it the right way.

And Baraka, Cinco de Mayo is a big drinking day.

I believe one of them is half Hispanic.

I think this is an accurate analogy if you're describing the wearing the Mexican flag in Mexico on July 4.
I just don't see how wearing the U.S. flag in the U.S. is ever inflammatory. To say that this is inappropriate is saying that you can't express patriotism in your own country on certain days.

It is only inflammatory if they did it because it was Cinco de Mayo. It all comes down to their intent.

Look at it this way, if I wore a Barack Obama shirt to a Sarah Palin event how do you think I would/should be treated?

My point is, if left on it's own, I doubt there would have been an issue. It seems that the issue was created by the administrator stepping in. If there was an issue, worst case it would have been a fight between a few of the kids in school...big deal fights happen in school all the time.

Now, this school is in the national spot light. Guarantee there will be multiple school board meetings, school assemblies, reporters, and demonstrations. All because the administrator couldn't let kids be kids. Yea, maybe the kids wanted to try to start a stir up in the school, but in reality, all they are doing is displaying national pride while others displayed theirs.
To the comment about people displaying Mexican flag apparel on the 4th of July...personally I wouldn't care. If they are Mexcian-Americans, they are showing pride in their heritage during a national celebration. What is more American than that?

I had a similar type event in my high school. We had a new administrator suspend a few kids for wearing plain white t-shirts because they are typically sold as undershirts which he in interpreted as the kids showing their underwear thus violating the school dress policy. Meanwhile all they were doing was wearing plain white crew neck t-shirts. The whole situation got totally blown out of proportion. The local media covered it, there were emergency board meetings to deal with it, people felt the administrator was discriminating against lower class kids who wore plain shirts since they were inexpensive, kids left school and protested, and we finally ended the week with school assemblies to talk about the issue. A completely ridiculous situation that ended up being way more disruptive than a few kids "showing their underwear in public."

While this current situation is slightly different, because the original intent was most likely to be somewhat inflammatory, I honestly feel that the principle exasperated the issue by taking action rather than letting it play out.

They were clearly trolling and given that free speech can be limited in a school... the principal made a choice that was well within his rights to make.


I can totally see why tea baggers would cling to this sort of thing. On the surface it is easy to say, But this is AMERICA. The issue wasn't the shirts or the flag. The issue was the trolling.

...in a school with a large American population?

I would say that there are indeed times and situations when expressing patriotism is inappropriate. I could imagine how it could be inflammatory as well.

Stories about crazy suspensions always comes from the parents of the kids involved, and generally they get distorted to boost ratings and because school administrators will generally avoid saying anything in order to avoid any legal mishaps.

The vast majority of these "crazy suspension" stories in the end turn out the have been warranted, with significant details missing from the original piece.

Sure it was trolling, but had the principal just ignored it, no one would have heard about it. He made a mountain out of a mole hill.

The tangential issue, of course, is that "wearing" an American flag is considered disrespectful to the flag itself (something that even the mightiest of patriots and tea-partiers tend to ignore as they drape themselves in flag shirts, hats, bandannas, pants, capes, etc, etc, etc)

It wasn't that long ago that Cinco De Mayo was a non-event in this country till Corona started pushing it to sell more beer. The restaurants jumped on that bandwagon shortly after. It is nothing more than an excuse to get drunk.
The school administrator was out of line asking the kids to remove the t-shirts. The "Mexican-Americans" (in quotes because they are really Americans of Mexican descent. Something a lot of people are all too eager to overlook.) are just playing the typical race card/I feel disrespected because that is the currently accepted way for them to react to things they don't like. If they are truly Mexican, then they need to get over it. Its not their country.

I know! Look at all these alcoholics....just sitting around and drinking too many Coronas. Even the children. For shame!


I don't think this gets the flag-wearing kids off the hook, especially if they went out of their way to incite the Mexican American kids who were into celebrating Cinco de Mayo. (And out of curiosity, do you also place African American in quotations? You know, for those who are really Americans of African descent? I think "American" by itself is too vague. It should be "United American" or something by default if you live in the United States. I, for example, am a North American as a Canadian. The United States of America has the difficulty of having a very boring and officious name that causes problems such as these.)

It's not simply playing the race card if these flag-wearers went out of their way to rub it in their faces. That would be disrespectful.

If you sent home the kids wearing American flags, you then have to send home the children who were wearing the Mexican flags. If they felt it was a tense situation you have to be equally handed to both sides, otherwise you are censoring rather then removing a potential violent situation. Which is why it is in fact a first amendment violation.

Hard to believe that anybody could get drunk on a near beer....


as for the OP, the school campus was in the US. I see no issue, and the principal made it a bigger one than it deserved. My guess is he took issue with the boys showing some backbone rather than the original problem. It escalated from there.

The news reported that it was five kids who collectively got together and did this, as well as congregating together. Hence, the impression would be bigger than just five random kids wearing their Old Navy shirts. It also started when three of them were asked to take their American flag bandanas off (Derwood's post is correct about inproper use of Old Glory), and they refused. THEN, they got sent to the principal's office. By then, it was a pissing match and the principal executed his authority against the disobedient little brats. That's my take on it, anyway.

BG, I refuse to use the term African American. My neighbors, who are black, and I have this conversation all the time. Fact is, I can't look at you and tell whether you are an African American, Haitian American, Jamaician American, etc. I run the risk of offending you buy not addressing your proper ancestry. Secondly, you are going to call me "white" and I'm fine with that. Thirdly, Dave Matthews is an African American - a white, African American. Fourth, if you were born here, you are American - any other label divides us. Fifth, I don't require you to call me a Baltic American, how would you know to call me that? My neighbors are absolutely fine with it.

I was referring mostly to those who self-identify in these terms. There are those who identify as being of Mexican or African heritage even though their family has been in the U.S. for generations. I was just wondering if Fotzlid would consider that a tenuous status or identifier in general. Personally, I see better value in identifying as White, Black, or Latino. But, then again, I have some problems with the concept of nationalism.

No worries.

As for Cinco De Mayo, it is ABSOLUTELY nothing more than a drinking holiday in America, created and promoted by Jose and Corona. All the white Americans go to their local Mexican restaurants and drink margaritas. A majority of those celebrating still believe it is Mexican Independence Day. This day in the US is not revered by the masses as some glorious victory over French tyranny - it's just a dinner where you get to answer "salt" or "no salt" a lot. That's just a fact.

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in college(Akron U) "may day" as it was called was the biggest class skipping day because it was the biggest party day of the year. Side streets had to be shut down, surrounding police departments had to be brought in to handle the overflow. I had no idea it was "cinco de mayo" just an excuse to get wasted all day.

It would seem to me that some posting in this thread don't know the meaning of the words "absolutely" or "nothing more." Maybe it's just me.

Well, for what it's worth, Cinco de Mayo is not just a drinking holiday in Oregon. Some white people may treat it as such, but there are legitimate celebrations, pride parades, and other cultural events that take place on that day too. I'm sorry that some of you seem to live in parts of the country where the cultural aspect has been lost, because it's really neat. I'd never really been familiar with Cinco de Mayo until I moved to Oregon in the mid-90s. People here really go all out for it. It's fun.

Taken as a whole I don't believe the school acted in a way to censor and violate these students rights, even though they most likely did. The kids were obviously trying to make a point by wearing the clothing, which probably wasn't a great idea (I can't recall the % of latino students).

But in the interest of stopping these children from stoking the current tensions over Arizona's action, I'm sure the school board has rallied more people toward the whole "USA!", anti-illegal immigration, Mexico sucks, American's are getting picked on side.

Oh, and the school district millions of dollars pending lawyer fee's and almost a guaranteed victory for the students in court.

dammit, I was in Akron couple of weeks ago, missed the big day!

FYI, Cinco de Mayo is a much bigger event in the US than it is in Mexico.

I know what those words mean. I'm fine with using them in this case. I live in a state with a huge number of latinos. I sit with them and share shots at the Mexican restaurant every May 5th.

~shrug~ What's the big deal? Virtually every military victory since the dawn of history is celebrated the exact same way - eating, drinking, and merriment. Is May 5 somehow sacred and being defiled by gringos drinking Dos Equis?

It is never inflammatory to wear a symbol of your nation, within your nations borders. Any of our northern bothers been 'sent home' for wearing a Maple Leaf? I think not.

WTF is wrong with people? Our nation is a mixing pot of cultures, but is becoming a divided plate of shit due to these 'tolerance' and 'affirmative action' issues. Where in the fuck is their tolerance for this nation and it's citizens? They are citizens aren't they? If their National Pride is so strong, why live here? I get heritage and culture, it belongs and makes us all better for having it, but any 'National Pride' belongs in that nation, not a foreign land.

And yes, Cinco De Mayo is about swilling beer, Tequila and mad BBQ. Oh, and I've seen thousands of Mexican flag shirts on 4th of July. You can too, just go to So. Cal., pick a city, any city on the 4th and there they are.

Yes. If you are born here or are a naturalized citizen, you are an American of whatever heritage.

What RG said...

I find the idea of the kids having to remove the flag T-shirts disrespectful. Are their delicate sensabilities more important than my own because they are a minority?
Why can't it be more "Both sides...knock it off."?

Something similar happened at my school this week. I know all parties associated with this very well, I go to the school every day.

Breitbart.tv Mom Speaks: TX Student Suspended for Removing Mexican Flag

NewsRadio 740 - KTRH

http://kleincollins.kleinisd.net/

The only thing he did wrong was throwing it away, he should have taken it down and put it on the principal's desk, as he could not find a principal (which is hard to believe, because the stairwell that flag was posted on has an AP office next to it). I don't want to celebrate a Mexican holiday, nor do I want to see a Mexican flag inside an American public school. We were all given a typed note today explaining "KISD did not put the flag on a pole" and all kinds of propoganda trying to calm people down. No shit, they fucking put it up inside the school. It's all bull shit, and it's bad for you.

I didn't see the flag that he took down, but it looks to be 3'x5'. It faces the main entrance to the school and the Commons, where everyone hangs out before the morning bell rings to allow people to go to their first class. The clock says the picture was taken at 7:22, but the clocks are three minutes behind, so it was actually 7:25, 5 minutes before class starts. I assume he took it down immediately after the picture. I passed that spot later and it wasn't there. Also, the kid who took down the Mexican flag is a sophmore JROTC member. His family, about 5 people total, were out in front of the school this morning holding American flags. All of this paragraph probably doesn't matter too much, but I'll leave it just in case it helps someone with whatever argument they need.

And yes, one of the principal's name is Shelly Dick. What a name, huh? Cool guy who used to play college basketball. Talks with the students all the time. The best AP at my school, I'd say. But still, let my school know how fucked up it is to punish A TRUE PATRIOT, THIS IS AMERICA GODDAMNIT! Any questions about this story, if you need a first hand account, ask me.

It seems it was either normal behaviour for this cardre in which case it should have been ignored, or trolling in which case it should have been ignored.

If the kids in the Stars & Stripes got pounded by the kids celebrating the Mexicans throwing off the yoke of French oppression, then pick up the pieces later and hope they learned their lesson (including the pounders getting their punishment).

As an adult, you will see many things that you disagree with, and not be allowed to go running to authority to have them taken away. The student body should learn that there are dicks out there, and how to handle it. That's a more useful lesson than algebra.

Exactly my point. Well said. Kids do stuff to taunt other kids all the time, its just part of life. Most likely there would have been words exchanged between some kids, worst case a fight would break out. Big deal, as I said, fights break out in schools all the time. Everyone either get's their butt kicked in a fight, or gets suspended from school for fighting. Either way a lesson is learned.

Yeah, the first part doesn't really mesh with the last sentence. School fights generally show might makes right, not vice versa... and suspensions too fail to address the root cause of the problem.

/idiot posting in Politics

Without knowing all the details, its impossible to know if the Asst Principal made a justifiable decision or if it was an over-reaction and poor judgment.

We dont know anything about the five kids. We dont know if there wax long standing tensions in the school between Anglo and Hispanic students.

We do know that the school has a dress code that prohibits wearing bandannas....so at least three of the kids were in violation of the dress code.

Poor judgment? Maybe, but he certainly had more facts than anyone outside the school.

A violation of the students' rights.....hardly. Schools have the authority to impose dress codes (within limits) that may impinge on students' First Amendment right of expression to wear whatever the hell they want.

And the Asst Principal also has the authority to determine if "any clothing or decoration detracts from the learning environment"

I wonder if the school officials considered taking the flag down from out front of the school or out of every classroom? IMO this is absurd for someone to tell someone not to display their honor on their sleeve. Granted this can become a slippery slope as someone mentioned wearing a confederate flag on MLK day. But in this case, we are talking about the American Flag. A symbol of this country.

This is because they are white kids, if I still gambled, I would wager 1 years pay that if it were the 4th of July and 5 "Mexican/American" kids wore Mexican flag bandannas and t-shirts not a word would be said or if it were every group out there would be bitching how the school violated the students rights and it was racist.

I don't care what you call me, that is the way this country has been going for the last 20 years with political correctness and "cultural sensitivity". The more this bullshit is played the more divided this nation becomes. If you don't like the USA and our flag LEAVE. NOWHERE else in this world, NO other country on this planet is going to have schools tell their kids to remove a tshirt with their national flag on it, why do we have to?


I am tired of people fucking bringing this country down and telling us we have to make concessions to everyone else while we lose rights. FUCK THAT SHIT. YOU DON'T LIKE THE COUNTRY LEAVE, I for one am tired of watching our rights get taken away because "we need to be sensitive".

When my German ancestors arrived they were called names and worked to assimilate into the USA culture. When my Irish ancestors came, they were called, Micks, told "no Irish need apply" and were discriminated against mercilessly. They didn't sit there and cry and talk about how unfair the country was, they assimilated and let that discrimination drive them.

I truly just do not understand why we must bow down to certain groups when they CAME to our country. I don't see Asians, Europeans, even Africans who come here cry discrimination and expect us to become bilingual and change to suit their needs. No those groups, the extreme majorities work hard to become US citizens and assimilate into the society they have CHOSEN to live in and tend to be far more successful than people born here.

Hmmm maybe crying discrimination allows you to live in squalor and off the government and have lawsuits ready... while coming and assimilating and working hard actually allows you to live the better life you sought to begin with.

Holy shit, Pan. Could you be more strident with your ignorance of latino immigrants?

Why not? I don't have to bend over backwards to please Asians, Africans, Europeans that come to this country. I don't have to worry about them crying or expecting us to cater to their needs. The WORK fucking hard to become US citizens and make a better life for themselves. They do not expect us to change our language for them. They assimilate, just as my German and Irish ancestors did when they got here.

Most hispanics I have met do work hard, do try... but there is a vocal minority that want all they can get and we bend over backwards for them.

Again, the challenge stands, I'd like to see Mexicans wear the Mexican flag on a bandanna and tshirt to a public place (like a school) on the 4th of July and be told to take them off because they may incite a fight.

Part of treating people right is treating them as EQUALS... when you put them into special groups and kowtow to their needs and expect others to be "sensitive" to them while those same people don't give a damn about your sensitivities... it no longer is an EQUAL playing field, but you are putting that group above all else. THAT IS FAR MORE RACIST/ETHNICIST/IGNORANT/ SUPREMACIST THAN ANYTHING I COULD EVER SAY OR FEEL.

I want to hear more about this. On the one hand I doubt any one of us can genuinely claim that we don't believe it is possible for a school to officially do something as mind numbingly stupid as this looks on the surface.

On the other hand for all we know instead of a normal group of kids with some americana clothing they could've been the local racists or something and trying to stir up trouble by antagonizing people in other ways as well.

We need more details before passing any judgement beyond that this could have been handled in ways that don't martyr anyone.

It says all it needs to in those 4 sections. If they had done it because they were trying to start shit... the district would have brought that out.

No, this is about a Mexican-American community upset that someone dared show US patriotism in a US school on "their" holiday.

Every single time an "outrageous suspension" story comes out, eventually it turns out that the original story was sensationalistic and based only on the student's point of view in order to stir up fake controversy.

Someone has already posted that bandannas were against the dress code. I wonder what more the story left out.

Of course, this doesn't stop the usual suspects from playing up the usual cards and claiming victimhood all over again.

---------- Post added at 06:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 PM ----------

Please tell me how you've had to or were expected to bend over backwards for anyone. Also, please tell me who expects you or is trying to force you to become bilingual.

Every group has a vocal minority that wants all it can get. Why are you singling out latinos? You admit that most of them are just working hard, trying to get by.

Basing your opinion on hypothetical situations which, to your knowledge, have never happened is a waste of time. There's no point in arguing with you about situations which exist solely in your imagination.

Right, well, how about you conflate the actions of a vocal minority with everyone who happens to share the same continent of origin. That makes sense. It makes about as much sense as me using you as a springboard for a rant about all these fucking white people abusing the capslock.

Out of curiosity what have you personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that you have never done for someone who was white, Asian, African, etc?

i love POSTS with lots of RANDOMLY capitalized words IN them

We are all about to get bent over -forward-, by 'Latino' illegal immigrants when the amnesty bill passes. Hope you have a good retirement plan.

That aside and nonspecific to Latinos, haven't you been taught all through life that people who get 'special' treatment do so because they are less capable? Personally, that would just piss me off if the government thought I was special.

Is this amnesty bill the same one that will ban all guns and force people to pay 10x more for coal power and gas...?

Yes, this was handled wrong, but you are dealing with immature kids and possibly immature/angry adults. I don't think it was just an accident that all five of them wore those shirts. While there was nothing wrong with wearing those shirts, it depends if they were causing problems, they would be the ones who started it.

But, I also agree with Pan that they are supposed to be assimulating into American culture if they live here. While I will celebrate May 5th at a Mexican resturant, you aren't going to see me wear this shirt there:
T-Shirt Hell :: Shirts :: MEXICAN'T

I can't agree with it because I have no idea what the fuck that's supposed to mean.

Are Latinos supposed to act all WASPy and eat apple pie and hamburgers or something?

And I think someone should call New Orleans; they must have missed the memo.

Of course not...you're Canadian :P

It means that certain minority groups are more concerned with identifying themselves by their ethnic heritage than the country they live in and in a lot of cases, born in.
Example: The kids who claimed to be insulted by the ones wearing the flag t-shirts. I'll bet you anything those kids were born in this country.
Why are they insulted? American kids being insulted by someone wearing the American flag. Its just wrong.
If they are Mexican nationals then they need to just STFU.

You mean like pretty much every group to come to this country?

Funny thing about assimilation. I spent last thanksgiving surrounded by bigots who spent the time in between dinner and pie (which never actually came) making hilarious (they thought so) jokes about Mexicans.

Just to assure me and my lady friend that he wasn't a bigot (we weren't convinced) the man of the house explained to us that he only had a problem with the Mexicans who didn't assimilate. He said this with a straight face smack dab in the middle of a dining room full of stupid little tchotckes celebrating his Norwegian heritage. This motherfucker has multiple Norwegian flags in his house and he's complaining about how those damn Mexicans need to show a little more respect for America by not acknowledging their roots.

Recognizing one's own ethnic heritage is normal. I come from a state which prominently celebrates its Northern European heritage. My neighborhood has rich Eastern European traditions which feature prominently year-round in the names of local businesses and also in annual festivals which celebrate the food and culture of the homeland.

It's perfectly normal for recent immigrants to hold on to and celebrate the culture of their homeland. As my thanksgiving host showed, it's also apparently normal to hold on to and celebrate the culture of the places your ancestors came from.

All this talk of flags is really overblown. Especially here, where the participants are teenagers, and thus prone to making hamfisted political statements solely for the purpose of inciting controversy.

Still waiting...

Pressed "One for English".

Oh I can see now! Those damn Mexican's make us have to choose which language to take some phone calls in! How dare private companies choose to market in a different unofficial language than what I use! I cannot be possibly bothered to have to press one on a phone because that would be me bending over backwards.....

(it was a joke, you knucklehead) :P

My bad. I wasn't sure so I assumed the worst ;) These days people say that kind of stuff seriously...

I guess personally I have been forced to sit on a toilet for an hour after eating a bad chili relleno. And i've also been forced to buy delicious taco's from the local street taco vender....

It's pretty simple really. If you emigrate to a new country, you learn the language and obey the laws.

Heritage and culture have nothing to do with it, that diversity is what used to make us great. When a group not only refuses to learn the language, but lobbies to have their language made an official national language. That's not really good for anyone. It's creating a separate nation within our borders causing separation and derision.

There has to be some give for all you take. If someone leaves a country for political, financial, safety or whatever reason. It is only reasonable to expect them to become a functioning, productive part of that welcoming nation in return for that asylum. Learning the language is part of functioning. It shows a great deal of disrespect and possibly contempt toward that nation to not do so.

Strangely, no other group feels so compelled to impress their lifestyle on their host nation. Most actually seem grateful to be free of the nation they left behind. So why should we make an exception? We shouldn't, that would be disrespecting every other American immigrant or not.

If indeed it is so important for them to remain their own nation, then maybe they need to organize and take their country back from the drug lords and criminal political groups running the show.

Yep that is why we all speak a variety of Native American languages and all go to the Friday night pow wows....

I'm pretty sure when our forefather immigrated to the US they didn't bother adopting the current languages and culture.

Hell there is no single US language or culture. I grew up next to colonies that primarily speak German (and have been there for generations). But I don't here anyone complaining about that. To act like there is a single "American" culture really just shows ignorance.

This is the biggest joke and fallacy of American culture as it concerns this argument.

No there is not an official language.

The reality is, any immigrant, their legal status not withstanding, needs to learn English. Sorry, it's a fact that they will be better for it.

Your forefathers not withstanding the predominate majority of this country speaks english, and the fact that the constitution didn't codify english as the sovereign tounge holds no bearing. Assimilating means learning english. If you come here and don't speak it, learn it, I guarantee you'll be better off for it.

Keep your culture, keep your heritage. At the same time have some fucking common sense about the USA. Yes most wasps, most caucasoids are removed from their "heritage", but honestly?

So absurd.

So why do you think the founding fathers didn't pick an official language?

I don't believe anyone should abandon their own language or heritage upon immigration. There was a very common sentiment in the early 20th century for various cultural groups (i.e.) "Italian in the home, English in the street." Learning the language of your new country doe not diminish your cultural heritage at all.

My other objection is the expense associated with multiple languages in commerce and government. If every form, email, webpage, worker, signage, etc. must be in multiple languages, there is a huge cost associated with that and that cost is passed on to the consumer. We pay for the Lowe's signs in English and Spanish. We pay for the driver's tests in English and Spanish. No other culture in our grand history has demanded that all forms of communication be available in their language as well. All of the early immigration was simply understood that one had to (eventually) learn English to work/live in America. I have a lot of Russian, Turkish, and Indian friends. They all learned English first thing, no questions asked.

on the other hand, my wife has a bunch of Cuban relatives who have lived in Miami for 30+ years and don't speak a word of English. They get along just fine

Our grand history is full of examples of having forms of communications available in their native language:
I would agree that immigrants should assimilate, w/o feeling a need to abandon their heritage, culture and language.....but assimilation does not happen overnight, nor should it be expected to do so.

Lowe's, etc. are doing things in Spanish not because anyone "demanded," but they saw a profit opportunity.

And the idea that in the past it was "simply understood that one had to (eventually) learn English to work/live in America" is not true, unless you count a couple of generations as "eventually."

Recent immigrants, especially Spanish speaking, have been assimilating at a much, much faster pace than most groups in the past. On average, for recent Hispanic immigrants English becomes the primary language at home in 2 generations.

Hold on a minute, guys. I typed pretty fast and didn't really go into much detail. Let me start by saying I'd appreciate it if you'd give me the benefit of the doubt and know that I don't have some anti-immigrant, "anti-brown" people agenda here. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are some differences between earlier immigration trends and today's hispanic immigration trends.

I agree that it has taken generations to learn the language in the past. The resources available today on so many different mediums has dramatically improved the abilities of those motivated to learn our language. In spite of the slow pace at which previous generations learned, they knew they had to and they WANTED to!

You can't say there isn't a difference between that and today with hispanics creating lobbying blocks to have their language added as an official language.

Come on guys, you know there's a difference.

Dippin, I know why Lowe's did it. There's a large population of hispanics who work in industries which frequent Lowe's. That group of hispanics is also least likely to know English. Hence, they did it as a courtesy to those customers. However, that avoids the underlying challenge: getting that population integrated into society so that those signs don't need to be in Spanish.

You think Hispanics are the only ones with lobbying organizations?

While the goals may differ:

Bi-national chambers plot growth ...every Blank_American interest you can imagine.

But I say we start by banning salsa from all school cafeterias and returning to the Reagan days when ketchup counted as a vegetable on school menus.

Hell...not just the schools. Multi-culturalism has invaded kitchens across America. It must be stopped!

Boycott salsa! Restore ketchup to its patriotic place as America's number one condiment. :thumbsup:

But seriously, I would like to see those who are so vocal over what they characterize as multi-culturalism taking over America be as vociferously outraged by those who wrap themselves in the flag in the name of patriotism in pursuit of, or to justify, personal actions and/or national policies that hardly are good for the people, the local community, or the country.

Come on?!? Are you really deriving from my posts that I said ONLY hispanics have lobbying organizations? What I said was, hispanics have lobbying organizations with the intent of getting Spanish to be a second US language. That's a bit different than the German consulate working with the US chamber of commerce on advancing trade deals.

I hope I'm not being lumped in with that "but seriously" paragraph. I ask only two things of our immigrants...and to satisfy rb nomenclature...and our foreign workers: pay your taxes and learn English (within reason). I don't think that's too much to ask.

You've got to be kidding. Native American languages? :thumbsup: Fuckin' good one. So by your logic, we should all speak our ancestors languages. Yeah, that's brilliant, let's do that. :lol:

And yes, there is a single US language, it's English. We are all using it right now.

I don't know why they overlooked it, seeing as to at the time America was a British colony where I imagined the vast majority of citizens were either English speaking or bilingual. Why couldn't Thomas Jefferson foresee that in the year 2010 there would be 20+ million illegal Latino immigrants in America to consider?

That's funny. As a kid growing up on Sesame Street (before the Canadian version) I would have said the languages in the U.S. were English and Spanish.


Agua....

Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco, seis...!

These little dickheads went to school trying to stir up a hornet's nest and they succeeded. This has nothing to do with nation pride or freedom of speech or being American or Anti-American, it has to do with teenage punks who were trolling and got punished for it.

A guy at my school wore a t-shirt that said "I survived Columbine and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" a couple weeks after that incident. He got sent home. Same scenario.

Twist this into 'GOD BLESS 'MERICA AND OUR FREEDUM OF SPEECH' all you want but that's not what it's about. Sensationalistic journalism is sensationalistic.

"They're upset because they wanted to express their American pride." Bullshit. They wore them on this specific holiday with the INTENT on stirring up shit, not on being patriotic.

QFT. Also it is much harder for older generations to assimilate, in their cases it is their Children who assimilate. I bet there is a large number of people on this board whose grandparents or great grandparents didn't speak much English.

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

No I don't think we should be speaking Native American languages. However, whenever anyone gets all holy about "our" country being "our" country and everyone else should stay out, I have to wonder if they even know how this country became "our" country. We came in and stole the land by force. We then forced the natives to adapt our culture and our language.

---------- Post added at 08:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 PM ----------

They didn't choose one because most of them were bilingual and they didn't want to exclude anyone from the US. They wanted the US to be a melting pot for the world, a country of many cultures coming together to form one nation. When we talk about keeping cultures out of the US we are going directly against what our founding fathers wanted.

I'm curious to know what assimilation without abandoning heritage, culture, and language is supposed to look like.

It's not about keeping out cultures. It's about respecting/taking note that the USA is a sovereign nation of itself. We have our own history, our own culture, and a lot of people are getting sick and tired of feeling like they for whatever reason have to differ to some asinine notion of multi-culturalism/politically correct bullshit.

---------- Post added at 03:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

America, sans the whole language thing.

When one comes to America, how does one select one's assimilation? Is there some kind of catalogue, or is it standardized geographically?

I really don't know either Baraka.

What does it really mean to be American? Whats a foreigner expected to do?

Learn the language? Okay I guess I can see why speaking a common language could help us all out..

What else?

Attending baseball games and eating a hotdog?
Become Cowboys fans and drink Budwieser?
Reciting the pledge? Holding a sparkler on the 4th?
Buying a needlessly large truck, driving it to an even needlessly larger house and watching tv on a still needlessly larger tv?
Eating apple pie? Watching westerns? Get REALLY fat?

Aside from following the laws I'm not really sure what else an immigrant should be expected to do. One of the greatest things about the US (and a lot of other countries) is the ability to define how you want to live your own life, if somebody wants to speak another language and follow different customs more power to them. It has no baring on my life or how I choose to live it and in the end that's all that really matters to me. In other words its none of my business what somebody chooses to do when they get here.

As for the OP these stories usually just wind up being big, gusty, wind filled bags of hype tossed around by either side to illustrate a point. I would imagine the truth on this lies somewhere in the middle but I'm sure both sides will find every reason to dig out a ton of good old fashioned self righteous indignation over it. Meh, in the end everybody will get over it I'm sure.

What I find most interesting about this whole matter is that it has escalated to the level of a national political issue. I don't think it warrants that, though I can see why it is being made into one - it dovetails nicely with some very deep political cleavages.

A few students made a statement, and then they received a light punishment. This is interesting in itself, but not really extraordinary.

When I was in school, a group of us participated in a brief walk-out to protest the Iraq war that we all knew was coming. Each of us received a suspension. The administration handled us with relative decency, but they were firm.

As in this case, there was no long-term damage to any of our school records or careers. In both cases, students were able to speak up for something in an unorthodox way, and the administration decided to respond in a certain way in order to maintain a sense of control over student behavior. In my own case, I can say that the punishment probably taught me as much as the experience of the protest itself.

None of this is to say that it's unfair to scrutinize this particular incident and have strong opinions about the matter at hand. But it seems to me that this is primarily a matter for the students, parents, and administrators involved - and I find it poor form that one of those groups has summoned the national media and turned this into some sort of proxy debate about immigration and American culture.

I'm not willing to condemn the students as racists or trolls; in truth I have no idea what they are like or what they were thinking. Same goes for the school.

A couple of things on this:

1) the language thing is useful, but not overly essential for new immigrants. It's their children you really want. Concentrate on assimilating them.
2) Culture. American culture (Canadian too) is an amalgam of different cultures. It will change (continually) with the influx of new cultures. There is no orthodoxy in this. There simply can't be. Get over it.
3) Laws. American is a nation of laws... not people. The people who come to America must (no exceptions) embrace this legal system. It is these laws that make America what it is, not whether you speak English or eat hot dogs, etc.
4) Common cause. Difference of culture is diversity. Diversity is a good thing. That said, it can divide if there is no effort towards a common cause. I would argue that point 3 is basis of that common cause. The building of a better America, is the goal. There are always going to be different ideas of what a better America will be, regardless of your cultural makeup. Always.

1) I agree with wholeheartedly. when I was a kid growing up we had a family who's mother was from Yugoslavia and the father was German. The parents spoke very little English but made sure their children were educated as best they could be. The 3 sons have grown up to be very successful business men and I believe that is because the parents instilled in them the opportunities that existed.

If you have a group that sits there and does nothing but talks about how discriminated they are and hold in contempt the very country they are in because they feel oppressed (even though they came here on their own free will), their children will carry those prejudices and anger and not succeed. This will lead to more resentment and more passion that they are being oppressed and held down.


2) American culture is an amalgamation of many parts and is continually being added to. However, hard work, the desire to make the nation better for the next generation and pride of what the US stands for (Freedom, Liberty, Justice) should NEVER change but be instilled into everyone so that those 100 years from now have better lives and opportunities than we have now.

If you have a group that puts their own values and national pride over this country's should go back to whence they came and remember why they came here. If for example you came from Zyxtopia and refuse to learn English, hold you flag higher and cry that you are oppressed and discriminated against... then you are not truly taking advantage of what this country offers. You are wanting this country to give to you all you want but have no desire to be a part of the work and beliefs it takes to grow the country.

3) America is a country of laws and freedoms... (granted freedoms seem to be considered "privileges now and seem to be taken away and legislated against more) and they should be upheld. This includes illegal immigration. We cannot, nor should we ever pick and choose what laws are important and which aren't. The greatest thing about this country is if you do not like the laws.... vote to change them or the people that will change them to your liking into office. Until then the law is the law... demonstrate, speak out against it, write protest letters, make your views known but until it is changed respect and adhere to it. That's how change comes.

4) I would argue the common cause for America is to keep freedom and liberty alive and to work to make it a better place for the next generation and the generation after. To teach your children what it is to be an American and how the freedoms and liberties are so important. Part of this country's problem is that those who have been here for generations have taken it for granted and not truly passed down how valuable and rare freedom truly is.

Pan you still haven't said what you have personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that that you haven't done for others.

How about the fact that illegals aliens have cost us BILLIONS in tax dollars, not to mention the high crime they have been bringing wiith them.

That becomes personal when my tax dollars are going there and not to schools, the infrastructure or to pay down the debt.

I hope that answers your question because that is what you got.

Well, considering that the bulk of the costs of illegal immigration, where there are any, are shouldered by states, and considering how you live in a state that is in the bottom half of all states in terms of number of illegal immigrants, I'd say that you don't have much bending over to do.

Besides, how is this thread about illegal immigration? However many illegal immigrants there are in this country, they are still a minority of Hispanics, and as such can't be equated.

Do you have any conclusive data on the effect that illegal immigrants have on crime rates?

Illegals frequently also pay taxes, but receive fewer benefits.

They also frequently work for below minimum wage, which makes the stuff we buy cheaper.

For all you know, they provide a net positive to our economy and tax situation.

An interesting article that would disagree with you.

Center for Immigration Studies

I answer the question that you seemed to want to hound me over...ignoring ALL else I said. Then berate me for having my opinion.... if you can't debate me and show me respect then don't be surprised if I don't answer your questions. I would tell you what I really wanted to say but.... welll better judgment got control of my emotions.


You can bring out your links and I'll bring out mine and we'll argue over who is more "right" and no opinions will be changed.

Thus, I'm not getting into a pissing contest. I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind. In fact if anything degradation just solidifies my opinion (rightfully or wrongfully even more).

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERIOR TO ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH MORE EDUCATED OR BETTER VERSED THAN ME.... WE JUST SEE THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND BELIEVE DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT TEAR DOWN THE OTHERS ARGUMENTS. TREATING ANYONE AS LESS THAN YOU DOES NOTHING BUT PISS THEM OFF.

AND YES I LOCKED MY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO POST "GEE I LOVE RANDOM CAPS" AND PLAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY"HAVE MORE WHAT THE FUCK EVER THAN I DO" ... TO YOU I SAY I VALUE YOU OPINION AS MUCH AS I VALUE THE CHARMIN I USE TO WIPE MY ASS.

No one hounded you over anything.
You said
And people merely asked you to provide examples. Examples, by the way, in a topic where illegal immigration wasn't even mentioned.

And just like later you dismiss Rahl when he tries to engage in your non sequitur, let me remind you of something:

THIS ISN'T YOUR FUCKING BLOG.

You basically said that Hispanics "cry" and expect you to cater to their needs, while at the same time expecting you to learn their language.

You want to rant without having to discuss anything with people? MOVE IT TO YOUR FUCKING BLOG. Don't throw a temper tantrum when people expect you to provide some evidence for some pretty inflammatory rhetoric. There is a name for unsubstantiated attacks on an entire ethnicity.

I'm not having a temper tantrum.... but when people FLAT ASSED ignore everything else I say and HOUND me over a question, I obviously thought did not need to be answered in this thread, then it became about illegal immigration .... then it becomes "how dows that have anything to do with this topic".

Play your f'n games with someone else.
I will stick to the topic... I don't answer your questions MOVE THE FUCK ON I obviously didn't want to... stop hounding me then crying because I "changed the topic".

Don't like me fine then don't comment on my posts. Tell a mod to ban me... whatever.... just do not expect me to play your fucking games.

Holy shit. So that's what it looks like when your head explodes via your keyboard.

Love ya, pan.

By the way, as it takes a troll to know a troll, those kids and their parents should be ashamed for letting it get this far. It's not a matter of national pride but teaching your children that it's alright to go around as tactless dicks that feign ignorance when called out for it.

True justice will be served when the children of our merry band of rebels grow to telecommute to their chinese jobs and consider themselves proud citizens de Estados Unidos.

Hounded? You were asked three times to substantiate a pretty ridiculous statement. It is not a game, but when you say ridiculous shit, expect to be called out on it.

Yes, hounded... I moved onto something different. IF I don't answer a question the assume wtf ever you want.

And by the way, you're hounding me about how I wasn't hounded and what does this have to do with the OP.

I'll end all of this now.

YOU'RE 100% RIGHT IN EVERYTHING YOU SAY. THE SKY IS PURPLE, OBAMA IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER, THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, 10+% UNEMPLOYMENT FOR THE REST OF THIS NATION'S LIFE IS MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE OBAMA SAYS IT IS, OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA... ILLEGAL ALIENS GOOD... SENDING KIDS HOME BECAUSE THEY WORE A US FLAG AND WERE PATRIOTIC DURING A MEXICAN HOLIDAY MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE HOW DARE THOSE KIDS BE SO INSENSITIVE, EVERYTHING ON GOD'S FUCKING GREEN PLANET IS GREAT BECAUSE FUCKING BARAK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE GREATEST LEADER SINCE JESUS... OHHHH BETTER NOT MENTION HIM.... SINCE MAN INSTITUTED GOVERNMENT.... THERE DID I COVER EVERY THREAD POST AND QUESTION YOU HAVE EVER ASKED ME???????? I DID FORGET..... IF YOU DISLIKE OBAMA YOU ARE RACIST. IF YOU DISLIKE ANYTHING THE SOCIALISTIC DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP PUTS INTO LAW FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SIGN YOU ARE NOT ONLY RACIST BUT A TRASHY, BACKWOODS, WHITE SUPREMACIST BIGOT AND THE REASON AMERICA IS FAILING... IT'S NOT THE DEFICIT, NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, A TAX BASE THAT HAS BEEN ERODED AWAY, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, FUCKING NON OBAMA LOVING RACISTS.

Have a nice day.

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------

LOL.... yes, it is and it fucking felt good.

I think I found the problem. See, some of us seem to be trying to argue with you, while you seem to be arguing with caricatures of us.

If you are really serious about your bimonthly calls for political cooperation you'd stop for a second and consider where you fit in. Most of our current political problems can be traced back to people who let passion displace their intellect. If you want to make the world a better place, you'd make sure that you aren't part of this problem.

And another thread ends with pan playing the victim, where have I seen this movie before?

Christ pan, now you have to get, this is a forum, when you make statements people are going to ask you to back them up, plain and simple, you don't seem to get that part of a discussion forum, you seem to think people calling you on them is being 'hounded' or in my case that I'm 'personally attacking pan', which isn't the case. People here get called out every day when they type things, they don't throw hissy fits like a teenage girl who didn't get asked to prom, come on man, we're all adults here, grow up.

This quote is straight out of the aceventura playbook.

So you're saying that you believe what you believe, and any link or facts that dispute what you believe will be ignored?

In Chapter One of the U. S. Code states, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery," and article 8j states, "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

Wearing the flag on clothing is already being disrespectful to the US Code. Found this today on Ebert's blog and thought I'd leave it here.

This means the actual flag should not be cut up and transformed into apparel. I don't believe that wearing an Old Navy shirt which displays the American Flag in its entirety is in violation of the U.S. flag code.

None of that has much to do with these kids' case. There's no doubt these kids were making a "not welcome" political statement and were attempting to generate a reaction. I'm still of the opinion that the school should have ignored them. They would have gone home with their tail between their legs, saddened by the fact that their little plan failed. Instead, it worked to perfect success.

First a money guy going into the kitchen and now a movie guy commenting on socio-political statements.

I was watching TV and the talking heads were debating this the other day.

Personally, I think that people should wear what they want and they should bear the fruits of that freedom. If that means they get the shit kicked out of them because of pissed off people, well that's the risk they took.

Hm, against code...and not to mention rather corny.

I should probably add that I'm suspicious about the motives of the kids in the U.S. flag gear. Given the size of the Mexican-American population in the school, they probably knew damn well it was Cinco de Mayo, as I'm sure there was a bit of a lead-up and anticipation of the observance at the school.

That said, I don't see this kind of action---if it was indeed intentional---as patriotic. I see it as jingoistic, which in itself is disgraceful to the flag.

I don't think anyone believes they were wearing those shirts on that day, in that way, to show patriotism. So, yes, it was disgraceful to the flag.