What the hell, Hill? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dirtyrascal7 · 06-04-2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The associated press has officially released the tally that we've had for a few days now, making Obama the official nominee. Hillary is expected to bitterly concede tonight, or continue to be stubborn and become the next Ron Paul.

To no one's huge surprise, she mentioned nothing about conceding last night. What really struck me though, was the contrast in how they praised each other. While Obama was extremely respectful and showed great admiration for Hillary's hard work, her speech said very little about his accomplishments and was purposely vague. In fact, it was phrased in such a way that sounds like what she would have said if she had won the nomination. What a narcissist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton (05.03.08)

I want to start tonight by congratulating Senator Obama and his supporters on the extraordinary race that they have run. Senator Obama has inspired so many Americans to care about politics and empowered so many more to get involved, and our party and our democracy is stronger and more vibrant as a result. So, we are grateful, and it has been an honor to contest these primaries with him, just as it is an honor to call him my friend. And tonight, I would like all of us to take a moment to recognize him and his supporters for all they have accomplished.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barack Obama (05.03.08)

At this defining moment for our nation, we should be proud that our party put forth one of the most talented, qualified field of individuals ever to run for this office. I have not just competed with them as rivals, I have learned from them as friends, as public servants, and as patriots who love America and are willing to work tirelessly to make this country better. They are leaders of this party, and leaders that America will turn to for years to come.

That is particularly true for the candidate who has traveled further on this journey than anyone else. Senator Hillary Clinton has made history in this campaign not just because she’s a woman who has done what no woman has done before, but because she’s a leader who inspires millions of Americans with her strength, her courage, and her commitment to the causes that brought us here tonight.

We’ve certainly had our differences over the last sixteen months. But as someone who’s shared a stage with her many times, I can tell you that what gets Hillary Clinton up in the morning – even in the face of tough odds – is exactly what sent her and Bill Clinton to sign up for their first campaign in Texas all those years ago; what sent her to work at the Children’s Defense Fund and made her fight for health care as First Lady; what led her to the United States Senate and fueled her barrier-breaking campaign for the presidency – an unyielding desire to improve the lives of ordinary Americans, no matter how difficult the fight may be. And you can rest assured that when we finally win the battle for universal health care in this country, she will be central to that victory. When we transform our energy policy and lift our children out of poverty, it will be because she worked to help make it happen. Our party and our country are better off because of her, and I am a better candidate for having had the honor to compete with Hillary Rodham Clinton.

abaya · 06-04-2008, 04:47 AM

Ah, I'm just glad it's finally over. Let the REAL campaign begin, now!!!

Obama's speech was jaw-droppingly flattering to Hillary. I found it interesting how he recognized all of her accomplishments as the first woman running for president, etc... but she didn't mention anything about the historic nature of HIS nomination.

I also don't understand why she has to hold out on conceding, as some kind of political leverage to getting the VP slot?... Why can't she just concede, and then let the VP deal be a separate issue? I guess I'm missing some part of the technicalities, here.

dirtyrascal7 · 06-04-2008, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Ah, I'm just glad it's finally over. Let the REAL campaign begin, now!!!

Obama's speech was jaw-droppingly flattering to Hillary. I found it interesting how he recognized all of her accomplishments as the first woman running for president, etc... but she didn't mention anything about the historic nature of HIS nomination.

I also don't understand why she has to hold out on conceding, as some kind of political leverage to getting the VP slot?... Why can't she just concede, and then let the VP deal be a separate issue? I guess I'm missing some part of the technicalities, here.

No, you're not missing any technicalities... that's just how they play the game. She hasn't given an inch throughout the entire campaign and even tried to change the rules in her favor, so it's not surprising. Using it as leverage is exactly what she's doing, and if she doesn't get her way, I wouldn't be surprised if she refuses do endorse Obama at all.

Tully Mars · 06-04-2008, 04:59 AM

I really hope he doesn't tap her for Veep. Though, over McCain, I'd support, donate and vote for that ticket.

Her behavior in this election has left me some what ill.

dirtyrascal7 · 06-04-2008, 05:05 AM

The more I think about this, the more pissed off it makes me. She has now officially lost, and she is still in denial. If you go to her website, it asks you to "Stand with Hillary" and send a message of support. Is she serious? Not only is she asking people to feed her ego, but to "stand with Hillary" as if it were still her against the rest of the Democrats. She hasn't even hinted at uniting the party against John McCain... it's still all about her.

SecretMethod70 · 06-04-2008, 09:47 AM

dirtyrascal7: and if you sign the pledge to stand with her, it asks you for more money. It's really sickening.

Willravel · 06-04-2008, 09:59 AM

She needs to try and fill the $10m hole she's dug herself.

ratbastid · 06-04-2008, 10:13 AM

I "stood with Hillary" and sent in a message hoping that she will help remind the shrieking Hillary fans that have popped up on youtube recently that they're still Democrats.

I SERIOUSLY hope that she's taking this time to work on how to undo the damage she's done and return her "silenced 18 Million" to the Democratic fold. That's the benefit of the doubt I'm giving her.

SecretMethod70 · 06-04-2008, 10:14 AM

That doesn't make it any less disgusting. She's now lost by any metric you can use, and she's still trying to dupe her supporters into giving her money. If she were to say "hey, I've got a lot of campaign debt from fighting for you, can you help me pay it off?" I wouldn't have a problem, but that's not what she's doing.

ratbastid · 06-05-2008, 03:19 AM

I got an email from Hillary at 2:00am this morning, presumably because I put myself on a list when I submitted my comment I mentioned in pos #88. This is VERY GOOD NEWS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillary Clinton

Dear ratbastid,

I wanted you to be one of the first to know: on Saturday, I will hold an event in Washington D.C. to thank everyone who has supported my campaign. Over the course of the last 16 months, I have been privileged and touched to witness the incredible dedication and sacrifice of so many people working for our campaign. Every minute you put into helping us win, every dollar you gave to keep up the fight meant more to me than I can ever possibly tell you.

On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy. This has been a long and hard-fought campaign, but as I have always said, my differences with Senator Obama are small compared to the differences we have with Senator McCain and the Republicans.

I have said throughout the campaign that I would strongly support Senator Obama if he were the Democratic Party's nominee, and I intend to deliver on that promise.

When I decided to run for president, I knew exactly why I was getting into this race: to work hard every day for the millions of Americans who need a voice in the White House.

I made you -- and everyone who supported me -- a promise: to stand up for our shared values and to never back down. I'm going to keep that promise today, tomorrow, and for the rest of my life.

I will be speaking on Saturday about how together we can rally the party behind Senator Obama. The stakes are too high and the task before us too important to do otherwise.

I know as I continue my lifelong work for a stronger America and a better world, I will turn to you for the support, the strength, and the commitment that you have shown me in the past 16 months. And I will always keep faith with the issues and causes that are important to you.

In the past few days, you have shown that support once again with hundreds of thousands of messages to the campaign, and again, I am touched by your thoughtfulness and kindness.

I can never possibly express my gratitude, so let me say simply, thank you.

Sincerely,

Hillary Rodham Clinton

Willravel · 06-05-2008, 08:56 AM

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/margins.swf

Oh my god. Just... god...

Derwood · 06-05-2008, 09:30 AM

Hillaryis44.org is run by lunatics. seriously, if you didn't see the URL or the banner, you'd swear it was a neo-con website. how can so called democrats pile on that much BS and vitriol against Obama?

Tully Mars · 06-05-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

Hillaryis44.org is run by lunatics. seriously, if you didn't see the URL or the banner, you'd swear it was a neo-con website. how can so called democrats pile on that much BS and vitriol against Obama?

She's become the kid on the play ground who threatens to take her ball and go home if the game doesn't go the way she wants. Someone needs to explain it's not her ball and it never was, it always belonged to the voters. Now, largely due to her actions and behaviors, there's a large number of voters out there that are, rightfully or not, upset.

I'll be interested in seeing how she handles things in the coming months. Though at this point I don't expect much. In fact given the way she ran her campaign I will not be surprised to see her begin her 2012 bid on Saturday.

dirtyrascal7 · 06-05-2008, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/margins.swf

Oh my god. Just... god...

Wow, that is pretty damn awesome. I've read all the exit poll data before, but it's still very interesting to see it arranged like that.

Pretty incredible to see the overall demographic differences, and the regional preferences as well.

The shift in preference according to age is pretty encouraging. I definitely think we'll have a minority president in our lifetime, but I still have doubts about one in our grandparents' lifetime. Old people love to vote, and there are a damn lot of them.

One other thing... the fact that the less educated people preferred Clinton over Obama has me somewhat worried. Educated people would probably be more likely to base their vote on logic, while less educated people would probably base it on emotion or previous biases. So if those Clinton voters feel somehow cheated or wronged... are they smart enough to realize how irrational it is to vote for McCain over Obama just because Clinton lost? I think Obama supporters would generally notice that and shift their support to Clinton, but I have some doubts about Clinton supporters doing the same for Obama.

Willravel · 06-05-2008, 10:55 AM

I'll break it down:
More men voted for Obama and more women for Hillary
All blacks (by state) voted for Obama and most whites voted for Hillary
Young people voted more for Obama and older people for Hillary
Upper class voted for Obama and middle for Hillary
More education for Obama and less for Hillary

Holy crap does that communicate biases.

sapiens · 06-05-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/margins.swf

Oh my god. Just... god...

Thanks for the link. That was interesting. I would have liked to have seen more detail (e.g. gender within race, etc.).

Willravel · 06-05-2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Thanks for the link. That was interesting. I would have liked to have seen more detail (e.g. gender within race, etc.).

Agreed. I see this more as a case of "you take what you can get".

Bill O'Rights · 06-05-2008, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

More men voted for Obama and more women for Hillary
All blacks (by state) voted for Obama and most whites voted for Hillary
Young people voted more for Obama and older people for Hillary
Upper class voted for Obama and middle for Hillary
More education for Obama and less for Hillary

How is that at all surprising?

That was their reported support bases throughout this entire debacle.

Willravel · 06-05-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

How is that at all surprising?

That was their reported support bases throughout this entire debacle.

It's disenchanting to see this level of bias. Clearly people still aren't ready to vote yet.

SecretMethod70 · 06-05-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I'll break it down:
More men voted for Obama and more women for Hillary
All blacks (by state) voted for Obama and most whites voted for Hillary
Young people voted more for Obama and older people for Hillary
Upper class voted for Obama and middle for Hillary
More education for Obama and less for Hillary

Holy crap does that communicate biases.

The site shows clear biases based on gender and race (no surprise there), but it also shows that the whole thing about Obama having a problem with the working class is a load of crap.

Both Clinton and Obama each had 12 states where they won the under 15k demographic. Clinton won 15-30k in 21 states while Obama won it in 12 states...that's not a terribly large difference all things considered (and 5 of Clinton's 15-30k wins were within 10 points, while only 3 of Obama's were, so it could have reasonably ended up 19-14 in that demographic, or even 17-16 Obama). It's important to remember that those 15-30k voters are also of a particular race and gender. What the site data shows is that the biases, at their core, lie in race and gender.

The fact less educated people support Clinton isn't a bias, it's just a demographic trend. That Clinton easily won the 60+ vote and Obama easily won the under 30 vote...that could be a bias, but I think it's more likely just a demographic trend. At the very least, it'd be tough to convince me that the under 30 vote is biased against Clinton's age, but I'd be willing to consider that the over 60 vote is biased against Obama's youth. Nonetheless, I don't see it. Get to the core of it all and it's race and gender.

flstf · 06-06-2008, 08:35 AM

From what I read in the blogs Hillary's largest supporters (Democratic women over 45) are extremely upset over Obama's victory to the point where some/many are saying they will vote Republican. In their opinion Obama is some kind of evil who stole the election from the woman who was way ahead and who they have waited years to elect. They must be very pissed to vote for the party who's position on most issues they disagree with just to get even and try to get the Democrats to loose so Hillary can run again in 2012.

Leto · 06-06-2008, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aladdin Sane

Never dreamed I'd be defending her, but...
I just now saw the videotape, and I fail to see why her comment is a big deal. She was only making the point that she is being told to get out of the race before June, and this call is a historical aberration. To reinforce her point, she reminded her audience that RFK had just won the JUNE 1968 California primary when he was killed. For me, and folks my age, her remark only reminds us that we have witnessed a Democratic primary race lasting into June, and it shouldn't be viewed as unusual.

Of course, I actually hope she takes it all the way to the August convention in Denver. Watching the Dems rip the hide off each other makes this old conservative smile...

What he said.

abaya · 06-06-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

They must be very pissed to vote for the party who's position on most issues they disagree with just to get even and try to get the Democrats to loose so Hillary can run again in 2012.

Yeah, "pissed" is not quite the word I would use to describe them...

dc_dux · 06-06-2008, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

From what I read in the blogs Hillary's largest supporters (Democratic women over 45) are extremely upset over Obama's victory to the point where some/many are saying they will vote Republican. In their opinion Obama is some kind of evil who stole the election from the woman who was way ahead and who they have waited years to elect. They must be very pissed to vote for the party who's position on most issues they disagree with just to get even and try to get the Democrats to loose so Hillary can run again in 2012.

I think it may be more of an emotional response that is likely to dissipate over the course of the long hot summer campaign.

Particularly as Obama and McCain focus on the issues of highest interest to that demographic....the economy, health care, the war in Iraq.

flstf · 06-06-2008, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yeah, "pissed" is not quite the word I would use to describe them...

pissed = upset to the extreme

abaya · 06-06-2008, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

pissed = upset to the extreme

Yeah, I know what you meant... I just meant that I would insert the word "stubborn," "counter-productive," or if I really wanted to raise some hackles, just plain "stupid," since I don't see a Democrat being "pissed" over their candidate losing as reason enough to vote Republican in this election. (More a commentary on them than on your post, btw.)

Tully Mars · 06-06-2008, 10:31 AM

Pissed off, emotional upset, whatever. Time to get things on track and work to heal the wounds. I got an e-mail this morning from my daughter who said McCain managed to raise some 45 million last month. If this is true and if the Dems want to stand a chance they'd better start working together or get ready for John's inauguration.

Edit: Ok, so my daughter's off a little, alright a lot. Looks more like he's raised 21.5 million. Still, IMO, he's going to be able to raise more cash then people think. Time to work together or perish.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06...y4157027.shtml

dc_dux · 06-06-2008, 11:33 AM

I think the $45 mil figure included RNC fund raising for the month.

The RNC has raised significantly more than the DNC over the last few months as a result of making their pitch around just one candidate. The DNC has been holding back a bit until they had a candidate.

Political Party Fund Raising

It also allows McCain (and Obama) to truthfully say they wont accept PAC donations...they just steer them to the national committees.

Both parties also have Senate & House Campaign Committees and the Democrats are stronger here...which is very important to increase their majority in Congress.

SecretMethod70 · 06-06-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

It also allows McCain (and Obama) to truthfully say they wont accept PAC donations...they just steer them to the national committees.

Not at the DNC.

dc_dux · 06-06-2008, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Not at the DNC.

DNC wont take PAC money......can you feel the change!

Rock on, Barack!

Tully Mars · 06-06-2008, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

DNC wont take PAC money......can you feel the change!

Rock on, Barack!

I hope this is true, but deep down fear they'll find a way to get around it.

Of course given the number of small donations Obama's received he may well be able to stick to this pledge.

dc_dux · 06-06-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I hope this is true, but deep down fear they'll find a way to get around it.

I agree it is probably largely symbolic, particularly since I dont think it applies to the DCCC or DSCC.

Quote:

Of course given the number of small donations Obama's received he may well be able to stick to this pledge.

On this point, Obama's small donor numbers are remarkable...nearly half of the $250 mil Obama has raised are from donors of $200 or less.

06-04-2008, 04:47 AM	#82 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Ah, I'm just glad it's finally over. Let the REAL campaign begin, now!!! Obama's speech was jaw-droppingly flattering to Hillary. I found it interesting how he recognized all of her accomplishments as the first woman running for president, etc... but she didn't mention anything about the historic nature of HIS nomination. I also don't understand why she has to hold out on conceding, as some kind of political leverage to getting the VP slot?... Why can't she just concede, and then let the VP deal be a separate issue? I guess I'm missing some part of the technicalities, here. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

06-04-2008, 04:59 AM	#84 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I really hope he doesn't tap her for Veep. Though, over McCain, I'd support, donate and vote for that ticket. Her behavior in this election has left me some what ill. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-04-2008, 05:05 AM	#85 (permalink)
dirtyrascal7 That's what she said	The more I think about this, the more pissed off it makes me. She has now officially lost, and she is still in denial. If you go to her website, it asks you to "Stand with Hillary" and send a message of support. Is she serious? Not only is she asking people to feed her ego, but to "stand with Hillary" as if it were still her against the rest of the Democrats. She hasn't even hinted at uniting the party against John McCain... it's still all about her. __________________ "Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past." "Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

06-04-2008, 09:47 AM	#86 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	dirtyrascal7: and if you sign the pledge to stand with her, it asks you for more money. It's really sickening. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-04-2008, 10:14 AM	#89 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	That doesn't make it any less disgusting. She's now lost by any metric you can use, and she's still trying to dupe her supporters into giving her money. If she were to say "hey, I've got a lot of campaign debt from fighting for you, can you help me pay it off?" I wouldn't have a problem, but that's not what she's doing. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-04-2008, 09:59 AM	#87 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	She needs to try and fill the $10m hole she's dug herself.

06-04-2008, 10:13 AM	#88 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	I "stood with Hillary" and sent in a message hoping that she will help remind the shrieking Hillary fans that have popped up on youtube recently that they're still Democrats. I SERIOUSLY hope that she's taking this time to work on how to undo the damage she's done and return her "silenced 18 Million" to the Democratic fold. That's the benefit of the doubt I'm giving her.

06-05-2008, 08:56 AM	#91 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...IC/margins.swf Oh my god. Just... god...

06-05-2008, 09:30 AM	#92 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Hillaryis44.org is run by lunatics. seriously, if you didn't see the URL or the banner, you'd swear it was a neo-con website. how can so called democrats pile on that much BS and vitriol against Obama?

06-05-2008, 10:55 AM	#95 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'll break it down: More men voted for Obama and more women for Hillary All blacks (by state) voted for Obama and most whites voted for Hillary Young people voted more for Obama and older people for Hillary Upper class voted for Obama and middle for Hillary More education for Obama and less for Hillary Holy crap does that communicate biases.

06-06-2008, 08:35 AM	#101 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	From what I read in the blogs Hillary's largest supporters (Democratic women over 45) are extremely upset over Obama's victory to the point where some/many are saying they will vote Republican. In their opinion Obama is some kind of evil who stole the election from the woman who was way ahead and who they have waited years to elect. They must be very pissed to vote for the party who's position on most issues they disagree with just to get even and try to get the Democrats to loose so Hillary can run again in 2012.

06-06-2008, 10:31 AM	#107 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Pissed off, emotional upset, whatever. Time to get things on track and work to heal the wounds. I got an e-mail this morning from my daughter who said McCain managed to raise some 45 million last month. If this is true and if the Dems want to stand a chance they'd better start working together or get ready for John's inauguration. Edit: Ok, so my daughter's off a little, alright a lot. Looks more like he's raised 21.5 million. Still, IMO, he's going to be able to raise more cash then people think. Time to work together or perish. http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/06...y4157027.shtml __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 06-06-2008 at 10:39 AM..

06-06-2008, 11:33 AM	#108 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	I think the $45 mil figure included RNC fund raising for the month. The RNC has raised significantly more than the DNC over the last few months as a result of making their pitch around just one candidate. The DNC has been holding back a bit until they had a candidate. Political Party Fund Raising It also allows McCain (and Obama) to truthfully say they wont accept PAC donations...they just steer them to the national committees. Both parties also have Senate & House Campaign Committees and the Democrats are stronger here...which is very important to increase their majority in Congress. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire