Damnfinn

It looks like Chrysler is going to sold off.
I think we need to buy it and start designing a Dodge Charger, Road Runner, and some cars that don't look like EURO-STYLE pimp mobiles.
Style, road performace, and economy can be had.
Look to the JEEP line to be sold off as a piece apart from the Chrysler Corp.

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BadNick

I'll chip in, let's buy it. I wonder if Halx would kick in a few rubles if we come out with a "440TFP Charger".


I'm not exactly tracking this situation, but so far I haven't heard any potential U.S. investors interested in Chrysler. But I'm sort of hoping that some U.S. entity buys it back and makes a large profit with it. Didn't that happen when many years ago the Japanese purchased Rockefeller Center in NYC and also Pebble Beach Golf Course/Country Club?? ...both were eventually resold to domestic entities at a fraction of what the Japanese paid, and now both are nicely profitable again. Of course the investment/reorganization needed to make a car manufacturer profitable in today's world auto industry would be a big challenge ...or 440 6pack R/T Challenger

shakran

i think it's funny that various news agencies are still calling Chrysler an american car company. It's not. It's german.

desal75

This is surprising news to me as Chrysler has had somewhat of an upswing under Daimler Benz, now Daimler Chrysler.

What sources are saying this?

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

Damnfinn

Most all the news media is factually challenged, let alone brain dead.
We also need to add a nice new line off kick ass tanks and armoured fighting vehicles. Some thing that goes from 0-kickass in a heartbeat.
Got to give the troops a hot rod to drive at home and in the field.

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shakran

Really? Careful where you tread here. . .


Or in other words, before you go insulting an entire profressional field, perhaps you should be prepared to back it up with concrete examples on how we're "most all" "brain dead" - - - -or are you just hopping on the ever popular "let's hate the news media because everyone else claims to hate them" bandwagon?

Damnfinn

Ok, sorry about the jab at the news media.
Let's just build cars.

__________________
I was told to get a life, but all the good ones were taken.

shakran

Apology accepted.

Now, if Chrysler wants to survive it needs to 1) stop replicating cars across brands. The Town and Country is the exact same car as the Caravan, for instance. That's silly.

The second thing it needs to do is separate from Daimler. GM and Ford are making shitty cars right now. If Chrysler weren't a foreign car company they'd have a real leg up since the "I'll only buy american" crowd would flock to them.

And they need to take a long hard look at Honda and Toyota and start doing business like the japanese companies do. Make cars that will run forever, and that don't have to be repaired all the time. It would help if they'd own up to safety defects and fix them. Chrysler took a big image blow when it refused to replace faulty disc brakes on the PT Cruiser that rusted up and could fail when exposed to winter driving conditions. They only issued a recall in the states that made them - neighboring states with just as much road salt got shafted.

The whole problem with the american auto industry is that 1) they choose short term profits over long term income every time and 2) they see a trend, and then put all their eggs in that trend's basket. Big cars were cool in the 60's and early 70's, so rather than make a few small cars as well the Americans went crazy with the land barges. Then the oil crisis hit and the Americans were left out in the cold. But they didn't learn their lesson because in the 90's they all concentrated on making the biggest gas guzzlin' SUV they could, and they're paying for it now. Meanwhile the diversified Japanese cars are still selling fine because you can get tiny (Honda fit) all the way up to huge (toyota tacoma), and get better gas mileage while you're doing it.

And the American auto makers need to stop relying on the "support America!" crap, because today's savvy consumer is perfectly willing to support America by buying American as long as America isn't making junk. . .which they are.

Cynthetiq

isn't that all business here in America? they all tend to be short sighted in following the shareholder value and dollar demand for better profits each and ever single quarter. It is a marathon, not a sprint.

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Deltona Couple

(IN JEST) Lets see YOU try to build 100 million cars a year and have every one of them work without failure!

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tinfoil

Jalopnik has reported that GM may look at Chrysler, which I think is a baaad thing for both companies. Of the two, I feel Chrysler has a more exciting line-up. Sure, it's just rumour, but not one that GM is denying outright.

http://jalopnik.com/cars/news/all-yo...oup-236606.php
http://jalopnik.com/cars/news/genera...ors-236660.php

Now, I think the 2 door charger is almost there. The grill is kinda ugly, but the rest of the car is quite nice. And I certainly wouldn't be upset with a Magnum in my driveway.

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shakran

Yup. I think the stock market is half the problem. You have a countryfull of armchair CEO's wondering why they aren't getting 300 billion in dividends each year. And the real CEO's cater to that crap.

desal75

Really? Careful where you tread here...


Or in other words, back it up with concrete examples. You don't want people generalizing about your livelyhood. Don't do it to others. Some things in your post are true. Namely, American companies failure to predict changes in the market before they happen. But others are not factual. You can get a Chevrolet Aveo that gets just as good gas mileage as a Honda Fit and you can get a Silverado that gets better mileage than a Tacoma.

Also, in the '90's most automakers went head long into full size, body-on-frame SUV's because of the huge profit margins they generated. Between Toyota and Lexus there are 4 different ones for sale. In addition, Chrysler wasn't the only company platform sharing with the Caravan and Town and Country. A VW Beetle and Rabbit as well as the Audi A3 and TT are all the same car underneath.

And before the question is asked: I drive a Subaru Outback.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

shakran

In the first place, I never said anything close to painting all US auto industry workers as "brain dead." In fact, I didn't say anything negative about the auto industry workers at all.

In the first place, The Fit gets 33 city, 38 highway. The Aveo gets 26 city, 35 highway (source, EPA and Motorweek). Now I'm a journalist which means I suck at math, but last I checked 38 was more than 35.

And real world reports from Aveo owners have them getting closer to 16-20mpg.


Oh, and in the second place, the Aveo is not a Chevy, it's a rebadged Daewoo, so it's not even an american car. My point stands.

You're right. The 4.0L V6 Tacoma with the manual gets 16 city / 21 highway. If you choose the 4.3L V6 Silverado with the manual you get 16 city / 22 highway.

But you can also get the I4 Tacoma manual and get 20 city / 27 mpg. Or if you still want a v6, get the automatic Tacoma v6 and get 18 city / 22 highway. (source for all this EPA mileage ratings)

So yes, if you choose the most fuel efficient silverado you'll get 1mpg better on the highway than the least fuel efficient Tacoma.

I can do unfair comparisons too. The V8 6L Silverado gets 14 city / 19 highway, AND you have to buy premium gas for it.

Or the flex fuel V8 5.3L gets 12 city / 16 highway when run on this supposedly hyper-efficient wonderfuel that is E85.

Oh and by the way you can get an extended cab 5.7L V8 Tundra with 381HP that gets 16 city / 20 highway. You can get the same mileage from the Silverado, if you choose the 4.8L V8 with only 295HP.




What's your point?

that's nice. But the TT and the A3 are very different looking and driving cars. As are the Beetle and the Rabbit. The Caravan and the Town and Country look the same, drive the same, ARE the same. The only difference is that the trim is more upscale on the T&C. Absolute clones are a very different story from cars that happen to share some of the same underpinnings.

desal75

I've had people tell me they get over 40 miles a gallon in Aveo's.

As for the Tacoma and Silverado debate. The Tacoma should get better gas mileage, it is a mid size truck while the Silverado is a full size. Yet, the Silverado still gets better gas mileage out of its 5.3L V8 than the V6 in the Tacoma.

My point about the SUV's was that the entire auto industry went whole hog into large SUV's because thats what the market wanted. It wasn't just the American brands but some Japanese and European ones as well. In short it was one mistake the entire industry made, not just Detroit.

The A3 and TT may be very different looking and driving cars but you can't tell me the A3 and Rabbit have much in common than front clips and interior trim.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

shakran

And I've had people tell me their Civic does 6 second quarter miles. People lie. What's your point?


Well, as I mentioned above, when comparing large truck to large truck, the Tundra gets the same gas mileage while having nearly 100hp more than the Chevy.


True, but the other brands were smart enough to keep pushing and developing their cars as well. For awhile there you barely saw any advertising for American vehicles other than trucks and SUV's.

OK, that doesn't mean the American auto industry didn't screw up. The Nixon defense (well he did it TOOO!) won't save Chrysler.

I'm not trying to tell you that. And again, just because VW (which if you hadn't noticed doesn't have the greatest reputation right now either) does something stupid doesn't mean it's OK for Chrysler to do it.

desal75

I'm not trying to vindicate ChryCo for anything. I was just stating that they have made mistakes as well as other companies and not all of those were American.

How much horsepower does the Tundra's optional engine get? Is it 365 or something along those lines? I really don't know but I doubt it is 100 more than the 5.3L. Possibly 50 more but the Chevy also offers a 6.0L that makes 367 hp and still gets 19MPG.

__________________
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cyrnel

I think you guys touched on a symptom of our biggest problem. Our auto manufacturers have been in bed with government, coddled as a national interest, to the point product excellence is way down the ladder. Why use billions to develop new fuel-efficient SUVs and engines when you can toss a new cab onto a pickup frame and invest a few million lobbying for goofy exemptions? Then push for a rollback of efficiency standards to influential reps who are only protecting our hard working folk. Lobbying and campaign contributions are relatively cheap. It's be bad (quarterly) business to waste money for the future when it can be found elsewhere more cheaply. Meanwhile, the less connected evolve their product and our disadvantages grow more obvious with time.

Seems similar to how USSR manufacturing incentives, and quality, eroded to junk decades ago.

Babbling here, but I bet I've had more coffee than you today. I hope my gist is clear enough.

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DEI37

On the Audi/VW thing. I don't know off hand which chassis the A3 is on, but the Beetle and TT are the same chassis. If I recall correctly, the Rabbit is a Jetta chassis. The A3 may well be on the Jetta/Rabbit chassis.

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desal75

DEI, the A3 is indeed on the Jetta, Rabbit chassis.

Its something all the automanufacturer's do. Some cars share platforms that aren't even made by the same company such as the Mitsubishi Eclipse and Dodge Stratus/Chrysler Sebring.

__________________
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shakran

Silverado: 295
Tundra: 381 (20mpg)

Astrocloud

I always kinda liked the SRT-6.

When I was selling cars I worked for Dodge, Lexus and then Toyota.

Dodge was a tough sell. It really was.

shakran

there's nothing wrong with sharing platforms. But when you make the *exact same car* and put 2 brands on it, then you're in the realm of stupidity. Why? Well lessee. You've gotta have 2 different dealerships to sell the same car at. 2 different steps on the assembly line (to put the different badges and the different trim inside the car), 2 different inventory tracking entries, 2 different shipping schemes. all sorts of bullshit that repeats itself when it doesn't have to.

With the Beetle platform, people buying the beetle are probably not looking for a car like the TT, and vice versa. So as long as you're appealing to different market segments, the seperate lines are understandable. Now it's just cheaper to stick the same chassis under the different body.

But two minivan clones are appealing to only the minivan shoppers. You're spending extra money instead of saving it.

There's a big difference between the Caravan/T&C and the TT/Beetle.

Phant84

Just to add to the identical car/different name list:
Mazda Tribute - Ford Escape

here you can find both Mazda and Ford at the same dealer, but the dealer doesn't sell the Escape, just the Tribute.

Whenever I've needed to get something for the car (I drive a Tribute) I just tell them Escape because it comes out cheaper.
Example: Needed another key (one of the ones with the rfid ones) it was $10 cheaper to get a Ford key than Mazda.

theres my rambling on this topic

__________________
Phant

Irrationality is the square root of all evil

DEI37

Yeah, that's true. GM "perfected" badge engineering. Buick doesn't need a minivan. Pontiac doesn't need a crossover SUV. Cadillac doesn't need a truck or SUV.

__________________
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desal75

That is the Silverado's standard 4.8L versus the Tundra's optional 5.7L.

The Tundra's standard V8 has only 271 HP. And gets poorer gas mileage than the Chevy's 6 litre and 5.3 litre. In addition, the 20 mpg you are quoting above is for a two wheel drive version while the Silverado's gas mileage is the same for 4x2 or 4x4.

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

Deltona Couple

I work for GM, where is your evidence to prove it requires premium? That is an all out falsification, it needs only regular unleaded(87 octane)

Again, I work for GM, and the Aveo is fully able to maintain the higher mileage. You need to go back and check sources as to where the manufacturers calculate their mileage. If you check, you will find that the government is working on a standard of which ALL manufacturers will have to follow. As it is currently, each manufacturer has their OWN basis for calculations.

Now instead of just spouting off information, here is my research on the comparison.

http://www.newcars.com/review_model/...do%201500.html


Chevrolet Silverado Toyota Tundra
Engines

Chevy Silverado
-4.3L V-6 (late availability) 260 hp/275 lb-ft
-4.8L V-8 (base engine, cast-iron) 295 hp/305 lb-ft
-5.3L V-8 (cast-aluminum block) 315 hp/338 lb-ft
-5.3L V-8 (cast-iron block) 315 hp/338 lb-ft
-6.0L V-8 (cast-iron block) 367 hp/375 lb-ft
-6.2L V-8 (cast-aluminum block) 400 hp/415 lb-ft (rumored for late usage in a performance package) -

Toyota Tundra
-4.0L V-6 (cast-iron block) 236 hp/266 lb-ft (2006 numbers)
-4.7L V-8 (cast-iron block) 271 hp/313 lb-ft (2006 numbers)
-5.7L V-8--Not much is known yet, but we'll assume this'll be one of the most sophisticated truck engines around. Like Nissan's DOHC 5.6L V-8 (320 hp/385 lb-ft), the Toyota engine will have four valves per cylinder.

Look at the numbers... Specifically the highlighted ones. Even GMs 5.3 litre engine has only a 5 HP rating less than Toyotas 5.6 litre.

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shakran

Really? That's interesting, since GM itself says the 6L vortec V8 requires 91 octane minimum. remember we're talking about the 6L engine, which is in the silverado SS.

OK, but the fact still remains that the Aveo's claimed mileage is still lower than the Fit's claimed mileage.


I cited sources too, so I was not "just spouting off information."

Your information is significantly out of date. Here.

http://www.toyota.com/tundra/specs.html

Says right there.

Cynthetiq

I'd like to chime in that a couple of years ago, Bush had a "Hybrid" announcement on the White House lawn. He talked about GM and Ford coming out with hybrid vehicles in the future coming years.

All I could think about was, really? Why isn't Toyota there with their Prius? Honda with their Insight? Both companies had hybrid technology working already, the American companies lagging very far behind. Honda and Toyota have mature products version 2.0 if you will. Even Nissan is far behind, their Nissan Altima Hybrid is using Toyota technology. Carlos Goshn, CEO of Nissan doesn't think that it's worthwhile technology but only a fad.

Now about the gas mileage stuff, the American cars have always abused the CAFE standard methodologies of computations. Give away loss leader low end cars which are more fuel efficient so that they can manufacture and sell the more lucrative Lincoln Town Cars. The SUV became part of that mix.

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desal75

Shakran, respectfully, some of your information is out of date as well. Chevy no longer produces the Silverado SS. The 6.0L that produces 367 hp and gets 19 MPG is available in regular Silverado's and runs on 87 octane.

Cynthetiq. Almost all car companies produce very cheap, small, fuel efficient cars to offset their company gas mileage average so they can sell more profitable SUV's and trucks. I don't know if Town Cars were ever lucrative though.

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Cynthetiq

Actually, no they don't. Major metropolitans, Town Cars are service livery vehicles.

European and Japanese makers only came into the market AFTER it was solidified as a market and slowly diversified into it. Not that there is was originally only 1 BMW, Volvo, Porsche, Audi, VW, SAAB on the Euro front, and the Japanese front had mulitples rather quickly, but some of them still only have 1 to compete against ALL SUV segments.

Again, my point is that instead of competing with the market directly the American manufacturers played lobby this and exemption that.

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desal75

But if pickup trucks and SUV's outsell cars weren't they providing the market exactly what it wanted?

__________________
The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

Cynthetiq

CAFE Standards have been exactly in place since the 70s, light trucks which SUVs fall under and all the manufacturers said they would be hurt or have hardship if they had to increase the CAFE Standards.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/CAFE/overview.htm

My own observations, one of the reasons pickup trucks and SUVs outsell cars because they include fleet vehicles in the sales reporting. Note the kinds of vehicles that local government agencies use and you'll find lots of trucks.

As for giving the market what it wants... okay, then we'd have cheaper more fuel efficient trucks... but we don't do we?

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Cynthetiq

CAFE Standards have been exactly in place since the 70s, light trucks which SUVs fall under and all the manufacturers said they would be hurt or have hardship if they had to increase the CAFE Standards.

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/CAFE/overview.htm

My own observations, one of the reasons pickup trucks and SUVs outsell cars because they include fleet vehicles in the sales reporting. Note the kinds of vehicles that local government agencies use and you'll find lots of trucks.

As for giving the market what it wants... okay, then we'd have cheaper more fuel efficient trucks... but we don't do we?

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desal75

If that is what the market wants why do people continue to buy large trucks? While municipalities do account for some sales I would say its a minuscule amount of overall purchases. A lot of companies and government agencies still buy passenger cars too.

I looked out my window and counted the first five vehicles that drove by. Four of them were pick up trucks and one was a sedan. None of the trucks had any kind of business name on the side so I assume they were private vehicles. People want trucks, they aren't being forced upon them by car companies. It is the current trend in automotive choice. At some point the pendulum will swing back and cars will become dominant. For now though many Americans desire trucks. Whether they really need them or they just like the way they look.


As for cheaper and more fuel efficient trucks this is not just Detroits doing. The Tundra and Nissan Titan are no cheaper or more fuel efficient than pickups from Ford, GM, or DaimlerChrysler.

__________________
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BadNick

I wonder if the UAW union, perhaps together with any other unions that have major employment in the automotive supply chain, could cough up the bucks or get enough finance backing to buy Chrysler. That would put an interesting new twist into auto manufacturing. I think the concept has been tried in the airline industry with both positive and negative results.

shakran

Here's hoping this insanely long link works.

http://www.chevrolet.com/byo/buildSu...2F230_8555.gif

Chevy's own website, you can order a 2007 Silverado Classic SS

Cynthetiq

But see again you are focusing exactly on the parts that make "sense" to the American 3. Focus on the sellers, the things that do sell, don't continue to diversify your products and keep your other products lines also moving forward. Short sighted IMO.

So again, Honda, Nissan, and Toyota seem to be able to weather the slump.

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shakran

This is spot on. If people want SUV's, fine, build SUV's. But don't build SUV's while ignoring your other product lines. Cars are fads, pure and simple. If it's not SUV's, it's sports cars, or big cars with tail fins, or cars with holes in the front fender. If the SUV fad slows down or ends, and your cars are still pretty much where they were 10 years ago, while Honda has cars out that have been steadilly developed over all those years, Honda's gonna win.

desal75

You can still buy a Silverado SS but production stopped on them a number of months ago.

In some areas, the cars built by Detroit have slumped. There have been duds in terms of styling and, to a lesser extent, engineering. There is a good case to be made though that the financial woes of GM and Ford especially don't have too much to do with their product lines. Other financial factors come into play strongly. Ford lost $12B last year while the Explorer is one of the best selling vehicles in the world, GM lost $10B in 2005 while outselling every other manufacturer both in the US and worldwide. Much of this can be blamed on miss management and outdated labor agreements.
For every vehicle GM sells, almost $2000 goes towards the health benefits of retired workers. For Toyota this cost is a little over $200 in their US plants.

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