Cool or not cool? EBT for cash

[snowy]

So I have someone who works under me who wishes to be reimbursed for purchasing food for an event that no one showed up for. That isn't the issue. The issue is that this person most likely bought the food with food stamps, and expects a cash reimbursement. The last time this person gave me a receipt for a possible reimbursement, they ripped off the payment portion of it, but I was able to see that it had been paid for by EBT (Electronic Benefits Transfer).

Am I the only one who finds this wrong? And if I'm not, what do I do about it? Anything?

[genuinegirly]

Unless you're upfront with them when they purchase food that they will not be reimbursed if the food is purchased with EBT, I don't think there's much of a choice. They paid, they need reimbursement.

---------- Post added at 06:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

If you're really in the spirit of keeping away from cash, you might want to reimburse them with a gift card for the grocery store where they made the purchase.

[Xerxys]

Uncool. It is wrong. They are gaming the system. But I don't think that is the issue.

Was he/she forewarned that people might not show up? What was the condition that they provide all the food? Very many variables in play but I think the most important one is ... is it your money?

If no, well, the system will be gamed because this is one situation that they can. Nothing you can do. Give them their money back.

[Crack]

Originally Posted by snowy

So I have someone who works under me who wishes to be reimbursed for purchasing food for an event that no one showed up for. That isn't the issue. The issue is that this person most likely bought the food with food stamps, and expects a cash reimbursement. The last time this person gave me a receipt for a possible reimbursement, they ripped off the payment portion of it, but I was able to see that it had been paid for by EBT (Electronic Benefits Transfer).

Am I the only one who finds this wrong? And if I'm not, what do I do about it? Anything?

You are going to have to find out for sure. If it wasn't over say... $100 then scam or not, in the long run it would be easier to just reimburse them. If this was for a business function and this person is using their own money to purchase the food, then why are they on food stamps? Wouldn't there be better people to do the buying in the first place? We need more info on the "event" but yeah, this does sound shady...

[jewels]

Give the benefit of the doubt or check his/her qualifications since you know how much they make and how many kids they have.

There are many people legitimately entitled who are embarrassed to admit they're on food stamps and would need that money back towards their family food allowance.

[The_Jazz]

If this was an embursable expense (which it seems to be), then the method of payment doesn't matter. So long as the employee acted within whatever guidelines govern the purchase (amount, timing, pre-approval, etc.), then I don't see why paying for this with EBT is even under consideration. If this was supposed to happen, and the employee did what they were supposed to do to the best of their ability, then I honestly don't see whether or not they paid by credit card, check or whatever is anything to even discuss.

Xerxys, I don't possibly see how this could be "gaming the system" if the employee acted within the scope of their duties. [not to pick on you, but you're the first responder and convenient] If they didn't, this becomes a completely different conversation, but that's not even implied in the OP. If this is a large unbudgeted expense for this individual and they are on EBT because of their financial situation (remember that Snowy works in a notoriously underpaid field), then there could be very real HR concerns if Snowy starts prying into exactly what happened.

[Xerxys]

Jazz, my point is, if she did use food stamps to pay for the purchase and concealed that part, then yes, that is shady, but what can you do? That is game right there. Downright dishonest don't you think?

That said, I don't know if you can possibly reimburse the EBT card used to make purchase, but non the less, if she has to be reimbursed then reimburse her but you can't look into it because you will be going out of your way to make both hers and your life difficult. You also have no proof, once again.

On an unrelated note ... I know very little about EBT but here's what I know. They purchase things at a severely reduced price. My experience with EBT is limited to one time when my bank accounts were frozen for fraud and I needed groceries. It was embarrassing as fuck not being able to pay for it at the cashier and I summoned my mom to come pay for them. What was a $90.00 came to $30.00. Until then I didn't know what the EBT was until I asked one of my co-workers who showed me.

Needless to say, I don't suffer embarrassment at the whims of banks like that, Bank of America paid well for that episode. Good for nothing fucks!

[The_Jazz]

No, I don't think it's dishonest at all. Unless she's asking for more than what is on the receipt, then, as far as the expenses go, it is completely aboveboard and this is not gaming the system.

It may be illegal to use EBT funds to purchase corporate food, but if this was the only option left to the employee, then I don't even see it as much more than a questionable purchase. Again, this employee was assigned to buy food. Food was purchased. A receipt was presented for reimbursement. If the employee used their EBT to get a lower price but is not asking for the original amount, then there's nothing unethical about the situation. If that's not the case, then there might be.

This is very black and white in my mind. Assuming all of the following are true, then it's really no business of Snowy's whether EBT was involved or not:

• the employee was assigned to buy food as a part of their duties
• other expenses are regularly reimbursed
• The amount requested for reimbursement matches the amount spent

That's it. Nothing else really matters here. As long as that last bullet point is true, there is nothing dishonest going on here at all.

[Xerxys]

I don't think I'm reading your post right. Your saying that this person "probably" used food stamps to pay for the purchase, but it is OK to give her the cash equivalent? You do realize that is over 60% right?

[ShaniFaye]

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is? This person used up their credit on the ebt card to buy food at a cheaper price for a function that ended up not happening, but not because of them and you're questioning paying them back because they bought the food at a discount and used something they could have used for themselves, instead, now whatever they buy they will pay full price for.

Not knowing the whole story it *sounds* like this person tried to get a better deal for the function by using their discount.

Am I misunderstanding?

[StellaLuna]

Wow. Okay, if they did... they were breaking the law. Plain and simple. If they have food stamps, they sign a statement that they will use that food for their family and nothing else. I mean, if you'd feel better reimbursing them, go ahead. Technically they're selling the benefits. It actually IS wrong, and they're breaking the agreement they made when they signed up for the program.

[highthief]

Unless you have some sort of policy in place precluding this, I don't see the issue with reimbuirsing the person - but I admit to not understanding the whole "food stamp" process.

[Bill O'Rights]

What kind of twisted mess is this? No. It is decidedly not cool. But, since you do not know for certain that this individual paid for the food with food stamps, then I'd have to say that reimbursement is in order. If, in the future, you find that this individual has, in fact, paid for reimbursable expenses with an EBT card, then reimburse the Department of Agriculture. And notify this individual of your intent to do so.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by StellaLuna

Wow. Okay, if they did... they were breaking the law. Plain and simple. If they have food stamps, they sign a statement that they will use that food for their family and nothing else. I mean, if you'd feel better reimbursing them, go ahead. Technically they're selling the benefits. It actually IS wrong, and they're breaking the agreement they made when they signed up for the program.

Assuming this is true, then this most definitely is not kosher. I don't know anything about this program other than what's covered in the Wikipedia article, so I'm going to trust StellaLuna's assertion that this constitutes fraud; if that is the case, then your employee is not only committing fraud herself, but also involving your organization in it as well, which could potentially have very serious repercussions for you.

A question: When the employee submitted a receipt previously, was she reimbursed?

And How I Would Handle This:

Ask the employee to submit the receipt for the food items purchased (naturally). If it is again torn, follow the actions you took last time. Follow this up by taking this employee aside and explaining that in the future, she needs to submit the full undamaged receipt in order to be reimbursed. Present this as a method to prevent fraud and pitch it as a change in policy.

In fact, I would strongly encourage you to actually change the policy to reflect this. If you don't have the power to do so, talk to the people who do. Explain your concerns and why the change is necessary. Don't name names, but do make sure to outline the possible repercussions for your organization if something like this is in fact taking place.

Accusations are rarely productive, unless your goal is to get rid of the employee. Assuming you want to keep her, I'd avoid that route.

[Charlatan]

Reimburse them with the equivalent in food stamps.

[Gebbinn]

actually, this is a blatant violation of the laws governing food stamps. I wish I had time to research the exact laws, but generally the laws state that food purchased by food stamps is for the use and consumption of only the persons listed on the case file. Use of food stamps to purchase food for a business transaction, and receiving a monetary compensation for said purchases is considered fraud of the system, and could result in criminal and civil charges.

I know people who have been busted for selling food stamps for cash, which is tantamount to what this person is doing, who have been tried and convicted for welfare fraud.

[StellaLuna]

Snowy my love, I issued food stamp benefits for four years. It's wrong. It's up to you to decide how to handle it from here, but I'd honestly let her know that those are for her family... the USDA isn't subsidizing the office.

[ratbastid]

I agree with Martian's "how I would handle this", for FUTURE issues.

For the CURRENT issue, unless there's policy in place to the contrary, it's not your job to enforce food stamp laws. Unless the company or you personally could be liable, it's not up to you to make sure she stays square with her contract with the food stamp program. As far as you're concerned, I'd treat the current ones like she paid cash, and get on with your life.

Martian's bang on the money that something needs to be set up to prevent this from even coming up. In fact, you might take her aside and say, look, I see what you're doing here, and it's not my job to keep you lawful, and I'm going to reimburse you this time, but the policy is changing, so please don't try this again.

[Cimarron29414]

Where did the food go since it wasn't consumed at the event? This is key to making a decision, IMO.

[snowy]

First off, the employee wasn't precisely assigned to purchase food. She assumed it was her duty to do so; I actually asked another worker to purchase the food for this particular event.

I work at a church, and the event in question is a night out for parents; they drop their kids off, we feed them, we entertain them, they get picked up. There is a suggested donation that usually covers costs, but since there were no children that particular evening, we raised no money to cover our costs. The current policy is for workers who purchase the food for this event to reimburse themselves out of the money donated, and the rest is a fundraiser for other materials and things we need. Usually, no receipt is needed. However, the last time this worker gave me a receipt in case no kids showed up, and I noted that at the very top of the payment portion (of which the worker had ripped off most) it said EBT.

EBT where we are works like cash. You have a cash balance on a debit card, and it is essentially like paying with cash. There is no discount. You pay the price posted, and it is deducted off the card. The worker saved us no money by using her benefits.

I am sincerely hoping that when this worker gives me her receipt this time, it does not say EBT. I know that this is defrauding the system, and it makes ME feel dirty and wrong, especially because I feel that this worker could have paid for this food with cash; I happen to know enough of the worker's financial status to know that $10 on food is not going to bust their budget. If the worker does indeed rip off the payment portion of the receipt again in an attempt to cover this up, I plan on having a conversation with her about how if they wish to be reimbursed for food for events, they need to pay with cash. Period.

And apparently she plans on disposing of the food/not eating it. I hope she would at least consider donating it to the giant barrel we have in front of the church for the food bank. :sigh:

[thingstodo]

I manage a large operation. If someone used their food stamp benefits to make a purchase on behalf of the company they should be reimbursed. It is none of my business beyond that. In the US food stamps in the form of an EBT card is just like cash. As long as items such as booze and smokes aren't purchased it just doesn't matter. It doesn't seem like there was any intent to defraud any entity.

I think everyone is overthinking and and making far too much out of this situation!

[StellaLuna]

Originally Posted by thingstodo

In the US food stamps in the form of an EBT card is just like cash. As long as items such as booze and smokes aren't purchased it just doesn't matter.

But it isn't "just like cash". It can be spent that way, but the person receiving those benefits signs a contract, if you like, that says that they understand that money is to be used for the people they designate as being part of the FSU- the food stamp unit. They agree to it before they get that card, it's part of the application process, and that money is supposed to only go to their family. My paycheck is my paycheck, and that does work just like cash, because it IS, and I have no contractual obligation to use that money for anything other than what I want. The whole FNS program was founded to feed people who couldn't feed themselves and their families, not to feed people who couldn't feed their coworkers at the company picnic.

[dippin]

While it may be illegal to use EBT for that, it is not snowy's place to enforce those rules. The maximum she can do is turn the person in to the EBT administration in her state.

[Halanna]

Originally Posted by snowy

who wishes to be reimbursed for purchasing food for an event that no one showed up for.

this person most likely bought the food with food stamps, and expects a cash reimbursement.

If you have the legitimate need to use food stamps in order to feed yourself and your family then you should not be using them to purchase food for an "event".

What if people would have showed up, there would have been no claim to be reimbursed, how was this person going to feed themselves and their family for the remainder of the month when the food stamps designed for that were spent on other people and an event?

If you can afford to use your government entitlement to feed other people, then pay to feed yourself and family the rest of the month, you probably don't need food stamps to begin with.

I'm voting no, reimbursement is not warranted here.

---------- Post added at 08:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 AM ----------

Originally Posted by snowy

EBT where we are works like cash. You have a cash balance on a debit card, and it is essentially like paying with cash.

It appears to work like cash but it doesn't. The food stamp portion isn't cash, it is a food stamp entitlement on the card.

There are two different balances that can be on the card, one is food stamps and one is (what it is called in Florida) AFDC, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, which is the "welfare" cash.

There are restrictions on the bar codes that separate what can be purchased with food stamps and what can not. You can purchase any food including seeds and food bearing plants with food stamps but can not purchase non food, alcohol, cigarettes and any hot food, like hot rotisserie chicken, hot fried chicken - anything hot from the deli. You can purchase it cold, but not hot, I have no idea what that is about.

When the food stamp card is swiped, the computer system will separate what can be purchased and what can't, so if there are items not allowed, after swiping, there will be a balance due. At that point, if they have a cash balance (welfare) they can reswipe the card to pay that portion, or they have to pay cash.

[jewels]

It's the wording in many of the above responses that's ironic. Feeling compelled to do something in character (caring) or averting potential embarrassment is a reason to be suspected of fraud and/or penalized?

I realize snowy's situation may be different, but this has evolved into a discussion about abuse of privileges. There seems to be an acceptable consensus that most people on government assistance are committing fraud and abusing the system.

Sure, there probably are a great many that abuse the system. But there are a whole lotta folks who get it because they need it. It's extremely difficult to realize you are so broke that your children won't eat unless you apply for food stamps. It can take months of denial and hell before someone gets over their pride to apply for something they need because of the stigma that goes with the word assistance.

Please. Step outside your cynical white bread world once in a while and take a look at what you may not see from where you sit.

Originally Posted by Halanna

If you can afford to use your government entitlement to feed other people, then pay to feed yourself and family the rest of the month, you probably don't need food stamps to begin with.

I'm voting no, reimbursement is not warranted here.

Really? How about this? You're not on food stamps. All you have is $20 in your pocket to pay for dinner, but you need to gas up your company car. So you spend your $20, go to work and request reimbursement, right? What's the difference? I don't know if I know how to verbalize this, so let me try again ...

A baby shower or pot luck at work. Everyone must bring a side dish. If the EBT recipient brings food, are they abusing? If a recipient has a valid reason to purchase food for a business, they've spent money allocated to them by the government and deserve to be reimbursed. It's hardly a scam if it's a one-time thing, and I think that those who truly qualify to receive the benefit shouldn't be penalized because of those who abuse it.

[Xerxys]

^^ Jewels, I understand what you are saying but still, I have to reiterate two things that have been said by many here. Govt. benefits and assistance are, without question, for use by a designated person's family only. I understand the gas/food dilemma but the case here is slightly different. Secondly, they are NOT redeemable for cash. For any reason whatsoever.

[Halanna]

Originally Posted by jewels

Please. Step outside your cynical white bread world once in a while and take a look at what you may not see from where you sit.


Really? How about this? You're not on food stamps. All you have is $20 in your pocket to pay for dinner, but you need to gas up your company car. So you spend your $20, go to work and request reimbursement, right? What's the difference? I don't know if I know how to verbalize this, so let me try again ....

I get it. I don't live in a white bread world, I live in a life that my husband and I created through hard work, sacrifice and very hard times.

When we met 20 years ago, we used milk crates as end tables and an empty TV box (taken from a neighbor) with a towel on top as a dining room table. We had a 12 inch TV, that only got channel 9. We have never taken a dime from anyone. I know tough, I know hard. What I don't know is being like the people I'm beind in the grocery store, wearing brand new clothes, dripping in gold jewelry, swiping a food stamp card then pushing their cart outside to put their purchases into a brand new Cadillac Esclade or Lincoln Navigator.

Beside the point, but if you have a company car, you probably have a salary that you can afford food for your family.

Originally Posted by jewels

A baby shower or pot luck at work. Everyone must bring a side dish. If the EBT recipient brings food, are they abusing? If a recipient has a valid reason to purchase food for a business, they've spent money allocated to them by the government and deserve to be reimbursed. It's hardly a scam if it's a one-time thing, and I think that those who truly qualify to receive the benefit shouldn't be penalized because of those who abuse it.

Here is the thing. If you qualify for food stamps, it is the equivalent of saying if you don't get government help, my help, your help, everyone's tax dollars help, that you are going to STARVE to death or at the very least become severely malnourished. Food stamps are intended for you to feed yourself and your family - temporarily - because you can not do so. They are not intended for you to keep up with those who are taking food to baby showers, pot lucks, etc.

If you are on the brink of starvation without help, then baby showers, pot lucks and everything else inbetween are at the very bottom of your to do list.

[jewels]

Originally Posted by Halanna

If you are on the brink of starvation without help, then baby showers, pot lucks and everything else inbetween are at the very bottom of your to do list.

Qualified recipients sometimes have jobs. With unemployment so high, many are taking any job they can get, earning barely above minimum wage and may have had nice clothing or cars they had bought a year ago. In order to move up from the low-ranking position, they know they have to play some office politics to be seen as a company man, so to speak.

The white bread comment wasn't directed at any particular post, but owning a single broken TV and using milk crates as furniture is hardly the definition of poverty. I'm just trying to say that generalizations aren't truths. And what we think we see isn't always the way it is.

[thingstodo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Halanna
If you can afford to use your government entitlement to feed other people, then pay to feed yourself and family the rest of the month, you probably don't need food stamps to begin with.

I'm voting no, reimbursement is not warranted here.
__________________________________

You (many "yous" here) are missing the boat here. If you use your benefits to purchase something for work, get reimbursed for that expense and then go back and buy the food you were originally entitled to purchase, you've done nothing wrong. Maybe you were ashamed that you didn't have the cash to purchase whatever - as long as it was legitimate you are only doing yor best to manage your money. You also haven't spent benefits for work and neglected buying for your family because you are being REIMBURSED!!

[Halanna]

Originally Posted by jewels

The white bread comment wasn't directed at any particular post, but owning a single broken TV and using milk crates as furniture is hardly the definition of poverty.

In a way, this is a valid point. This is the only "poverty" I've known and to me, it was extreme. Obviously along with owning no furniture and a 1973 Ford Pinto that nickle and dimed us to death I felt we were at the bottom of the bottom. But when your husband has no lunch at work day after day and you are trying to figure out how to combine rice and chicken dogs for dinner, to me, that is poverty.

I haven't changed my opinion, but your point is taken.

---------- Post added at 05:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 PM ----------

Originally Posted by thingstodo

You (many "yous" here) are missing the boat here. If you use your benefits to purchase something for work, get reimbursed for that expense and then go back and buy the food you were originally entitled to purchase, you've done nothing wrong. Maybe you were ashamed that you didn't have the cash to purchase whatever - as long as it was legitimate you are only doing yor best to manage your money. You also haven't spent benefits for work and neglected buying for your family because you are being REIMBURSED!!

The original question was basically, "Should someone be reimbursed for an expense that was not asked of them, they essentially did it of their own accord, and on top of it, they used a federal government entitlement meant to feed themselves and their family to do so . ."

To me, the bottom line is if you are using food stamps to survive and not die from starvation, then you have no business using them for any purpose then buying food for yourself and your family to prevent starvation. The roundabout, well I used it for a purpose not intended and I want cash reimbursement so I can buy Kraft Mac and Cheese for the kids and a bottle of wine is not valid.

As long as it's in the form of food stamps you can buy nothing but food. Once it turns into cash, you can use that cash to buy anything. It's apparently unpopular, but it's my opinion and that is what makes TFP so great!