American's use of 'then' instead of 'than' - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

snowy · 12-02-2004, 05:43 PM

I am an English major at a four-year university in the United States. I am extremely nit-picky where mechanics, grammar, and spelling are concerned. First off, I find it very interesting that many of the folks who commented here criticizing the grammar of others did not bother to check their own. Some of the spelling found in this thread is atrocious.

I have several theories as to why grammar and spelling are perhaps not as important as they once were. For one, we have spell check now, and in my mind this makes people quite lazy. They think spell check will catch every little mistake they make, especially since Word now comes with grammar check too. But Word isn't perfect. It frequently makes error on verb confusion, usage, and will often miss homonyms. Thus we must be responsible for our own spelling and grammar errors.

Two, we use the Internet a lot, and the language we use on the Internet is not the same written language we would use to write a term paper. Truthfully, the language we use here on forums and in other forms of online communication is closer to spoken English and is rapidly becoming a vernacular of its own. Younger kids may not realize that using this written vernacular is unacceptable in other environments such as school and work.

Three, we fail to teach our children basic grammar concepts in American schools simply because teachers are too busy teaching to the test. Reading has a much higher priority in testing than writing, and with such acts as the No Child Left Behind Act in place, teachers must teach to the test or their schools face losing funding. While I will not disagree that reading and comprehension of written material is important, we must teach our children proper grammar constructions and concepts to further their comprehension. Without understanding of grammar, students cannot then go on to effective analysis of what they have read, and they certainly will not be able to synthesize from the material appropriately.

While I think it is important to have standards in education, I do not think we can truly evaluate students effectively through testing. If that is in fact the case, then teaching to the test is useless. We must take on a system of learning wherein building blocks are used, so that each concept introduced to students builds upon a previous concept. In teaching English, we must divide reading and writing so that children may learn to use both tools effectively, and learn to apply each tool to the other. We must include grammar constructions and concepts as part of the writing curriculum, as well as spelling. Too often we forget grammar in our rush to teach spelling, and we forget that it won't matter if they can spell correctly if they can't use the words to form a correct and complete sentence.

I am saddened to admit I see papers written by fellow students frequently that do not meet basic writing standards. On a rubric scale of 1-6, many papers in my 400-level English classes would rate about a 3 on mechanics alone. This is unacceptable; these are concepts to be learned before reaching university. I had a professor in a 400-level class who had to instruct our class on what comma splices were. That alone tells me we aren't doing enough to instruct our children in grammar and spelling.

Can you tell I am a future English teacher?

miyamotomusashi · 12-02-2004, 07:23 PM

Its the bad english teachers. When i was a kid i could not read and they did not know (until my mother told them that she thought i could not read, this was 1st grade). In high school my english teacher said that my grammar, syntax and punctuation were fine and that i was no worse off then (oops i mean than) any other student and that my vocab was great. Being slightly dyslexic, pronunciation off, being one of those people that just cant seem to spell things correctly, and having an Autism Spectrum Disorder (AS), and I did not even know that there was difference between THAN and THEN. Testing showed that my english teacher was wrong. My mother made it to high school before any one noticed she could not read.
Feel free to criticize my english errors (or any other)

welshbyte · 12-02-2004, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Can you tell I am a future English teacher?

Your post was quite a breath of fresh air, actually, in terms of elegant grammar and spelling. I'm a bit of a grammar freak myself when it comes to people not checking obvious mistakes and I know how frustrating it is when that happens.

I think the reasons that we try to type as we would speak on the internet ("we" being those of us who know good grammar and spelling) are related to the fact that we like to be personal and informal and, well, strictly speaking, following the rules of strict English grammar makes a person seem very formal, business-like and, at extremes, snooty. It is quite an unfortunate fact but if a lot of people I speak to regularly via the internet didn't have their own quirks and phonetic typing idioms then I wouldn't pick up on the natural, personal clues about what they are like in real life. In fact, I like to get my words correct in speaking just as in typing but I'm not perfect and I too have my own quirks. For example, I say "gonna" in real life because I talk quickly and because of my accent and I also use it on the internet a lot. I know full well to keep it out of essays and formal documents, though.

As a result of this, I really don't mind any more about grammar and spelling online because its probably more effective in helping people communicate in a personal, informal and sometimes fun way. The rules of grammar break down here because of the exact same reason that makes the internet such a great way for people to communicate: the wonderful diversity of people.

So i'm gonna just leave my grammar frustrations to published works and formal correspondence in future

Newspapers these days are terrible for that. I know they have deadlines but it really doesnt take much time to correct spelling and grammar. And in books, formal letters from big companies etc. Its everywhere unfortunately

Oops, I nearly forgot to comment on the "then" vs "than" thing. There really is no need for them to be confused. They don't even sound the same when you pronounce them. But since so many people are dyslexic, we can't be too closed minded about that.

ScottKuma · 12-08-2004, 05:40 AM

I HATE it when people say that a point is "mute" instead of being "moot." When I looked this up, however, I was surprised to learn that this actually means "a point open to debate." It's usually used to mean something that's "not worthy of debate" or "insignificant."

I've also noticed an increase in people typing "opps" instead of "oops." Honestly, is it THAT hard to tell the two apart?

AngelicVampire · 12-08-2004, 07:08 AM

Basic grammer should be taught in schools, along with spelling. (Please note that I suck at punctuation.)

When we did French Writing at school we learned a lot about the English language as our teacher had to go over the basics with us. Teaching kids to spell and write correctly keeps our languages similar. Can you imagine in 50 years an AOL kid talking to one of us, it would not even be the same language, its like people who actually speak in Leet today!

Xell101 · 12-08-2004, 01:37 PM

Teenagers nowadays use media and schools for standards. That's bad, my high school twas abismal in terms of quality, and newspaper are usually around a 5th grade level, magazines for teenagers aren't even on par with that.

snowy · 12-08-2004, 02:16 PM

People writing in this thread, please note that the word is "grammar", not "grammer". Thank you.

Slavakion · 12-08-2004, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

People writing in this thread, please note that the word is "grammar", not "grammer". Thank you.

I thought you were just being a grammar nazi...

I type pretty much the same way I speak. It's not perfect grammar, but it clearly conveys what I'm trying to say. And I always make sure I don't mess up the then/than, they're/their/there and its/it's. I hate it when people mix those up. Although, to the chagrin of any American English teachers, I am now placing punctuation outside of quotes. It just makes more sense that way.

By the way, snowy, how should I have phrased my third sentence? Something inside me is saying that multiple slashes are not grammatically... kosher.

Master_Shake · 12-10-2004, 08:52 AM

Let me apologize on behalf of every stupid American who ever used then/than incorrectly.

I can't tell you how important proper spelling is to the poor fuck earning minimum wage at Burger King. If only he could improve his spelling ability. He might even be made manager of that shitty Burger King. Then he'd be making $9.50 an hour! Holy shit! Doors of opportunity will present themselves to him and the world will truly be a better place when everyone can speak and spell a language that pronounces two words the same but actually spells them differently. It's not like that doesn't make sense or anything.

And again, I do so humbly apologize for being such an idiot, and being so stupid and lazy.

Phage · 12-10-2004, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

...pronounces two words the same but actually spells them differently.

They are not pronounced the same. 'Then' has an 'e' and 'than' has an 'a', so they should sound different when you speak them. The problem is that not only do you not know what you are saying, but you don't know how to speak it either.

Gustoferson · 12-10-2004, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dy156

reason:
their/they're/there
its/it's
two/too/to
are harped on in elementary and middle school alot more. Americans also overuse I when they should use me because their early grammer teachers pounded it into their heads.
then/than, like that/which wasn't a big deal, at least not in my grammer education, that's why I didn't know the difference until later in life.

I agree, seems like my teachers in younger school tried to pound the correct their... its... and to... variations into our heads and just didn't care as much about then/than. I'm sure they marked it if it was incorrect, but they just considered the others more of a priority. And then again North Carolina doesn't exactly have the best public school system in the country and we pronounce them roughly similar anyway, so take that as what you will.

Coppertop · 12-10-2004, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phage

They are not pronounced the same. 'Then' has an 'e' and 'than' has an 'a', so they should sound different when you speak them. The problem is that not only do you not know what you are saying, but you don't know how to speak it either.

Don't forget the fact that they are completely different words.

Master_Shake · 12-10-2004, 01:50 PM

You're absolutely right! Thank you for correcting my idiocy. I know I'll be better off in the world of fast food.

Consider:

"Sorry I fucked up your order, sir. If I give you a free packet of fries THEN will you agree not to complain to the manager?"

and

"I know, it's so much easier cleaning the women's bathroom THAN cleaning the men's bathroom."

I mean, they are so obviously completely different words, if by completely different you mean one letter or 25% different.

Slavakion · 12-12-2004, 06:05 PM

...somebody's angry at the world. Calm down, it's just grammar. There's a time and a place for it. Yes, fast food isn't really the place. But does that mean that everyone who doesn't write for a living shouldn't know grammar?

william · 12-12-2004, 06:19 PM

JFM - no reproach. I can't speak of other Americans, nor would I want to. The internet has made a mockery of the language. I don't think it's even required of the teacher's grading system anymore. Good luck trying to improve the basics on the basics.

Coppertop · 12-13-2004, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

I mean, they are so obviously completely different words, if by completely different you mean one letter or 25% different.

As in meaning.

bermuDa · 12-13-2004, 08:29 PM

the different pronunciations of 'then' and 'than' are diminished depending on where you are from. These memes of mispronunciation are probably the main reason people spell out the wrong word (like mute instead of moot, affect vs effect) and it spills into a misuse of the word.

Keep sniping each other and i'll shut this thread down and hand out warnings, if that's what you prefer.

xxjuicesxx · 12-13-2004, 08:55 PM

the fact is noone gives a damn about grammar except for retards. seriously if you cant just use common sense to create the meaning of a sentence that has bad grammar then its your own damn fault for being too stupid. i fucked up multiple times and i actually could go fix them and spend time doing it right but im not going to because everyone reading this can understand what im trying to say no matter how much of a run on sentence i type.

bermuDa · 12-14-2004, 12:40 AM

oooook looks like someone can't take a hint.

Guess what, typing in a forum is like carrying on a conversation: if you misspell or mispronounce a word here and there most of us will overlook it and save you the embarrassment of correcting you. Don't interpret this as acceptance of your poor communication skills. The more mistakes you make the more likely someone is going to call you on it, or simply ignore you.

it's too bad, this discussion had potential

12-02-2004, 05:43 PM	#41 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I am an English major at a four-year university in the United States. I am extremely nit-picky where mechanics, grammar, and spelling are concerned. First off, I find it very interesting that many of the folks who commented here criticizing the grammar of others did not bother to check their own. Some of the spelling found in this thread is atrocious. I have several theories as to why grammar and spelling are perhaps not as important as they once were. For one, we have spell check now, and in my mind this makes people quite lazy. They think spell check will catch every little mistake they make, especially since Word now comes with grammar check too. But Word isn't perfect. It frequently makes error on verb confusion, usage, and will often miss homonyms. Thus we must be responsible for our own spelling and grammar errors. Two, we use the Internet a lot, and the language we use on the Internet is not the same written language we would use to write a term paper. Truthfully, the language we use here on forums and in other forms of online communication is closer to spoken English and is rapidly becoming a vernacular of its own. Younger kids may not realize that using this written vernacular is unacceptable in other environments such as school and work. Three, we fail to teach our children basic grammar concepts in American schools simply because teachers are too busy teaching to the test. Reading has a much higher priority in testing than writing, and with such acts as the No Child Left Behind Act in place, teachers must teach to the test or their schools face losing funding. While I will not disagree that reading and comprehension of written material is important, we must teach our children proper grammar constructions and concepts to further their comprehension. Without understanding of grammar, students cannot then go on to effective analysis of what they have read, and they certainly will not be able to synthesize from the material appropriately. While I think it is important to have standards in education, I do not think we can truly evaluate students effectively through testing. If that is in fact the case, then teaching to the test is useless. We must take on a system of learning wherein building blocks are used, so that each concept introduced to students builds upon a previous concept. In teaching English, we must divide reading and writing so that children may learn to use both tools effectively, and learn to apply each tool to the other. We must include grammar constructions and concepts as part of the writing curriculum, as well as spelling. Too often we forget grammar in our rush to teach spelling, and we forget that it won't matter if they can spell correctly if they can't use the words to form a correct and complete sentence. I am saddened to admit I see papers written by fellow students frequently that do not meet basic writing standards. On a rubric scale of 1-6, many papers in my 400-level English classes would rate about a 3 on mechanics alone. This is unacceptable; these are concepts to be learned before reaching university. I had a professor in a 400-level class who had to instruct our class on what comma splices were. That alone tells me we aren't doing enough to instruct our children in grammar and spelling. Can you tell I am a future English teacher? __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

12-02-2004, 07:23 PM	#42 (permalink)
miyamotomusashi Upright Location: MA, USA	Its the bad english teachers. When i was a kid i could not read and they did not know (until my mother told them that she thought i could not read, this was 1st grade). In high school my english teacher said that my grammar, syntax and punctuation were fine and that i was no worse off then (oops i mean than) any other student and that my vocab was great. Being slightly dyslexic, pronunciation off, being one of those people that just cant seem to spell things correctly, and having an Autism Spectrum Disorder (AS), and I did not even know that there was difference between THAN and THEN. Testing showed that my english teacher was wrong. My mother made it to high school before any one noticed she could not read. Feel free to criticize my english errors (or any other) Last edited by miyamotomusashi; 12-03-2004 at 06:58 PM..

12-08-2004, 02:16 PM	#47 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	People writing in this thread, please note that the word is "grammar", not "grammer". Thank you. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

12-10-2004, 08:52 AM	#49 (permalink)
Master_Shake Addict Location: Pennsylvania, USA	All homophones should be destroyed. Let me apologize on behalf of every stupid American who ever used then/than incorrectly. I can't tell you how important proper spelling is to the poor fuck earning minimum wage at Burger King. If only he could improve his spelling ability. He might even be made manager of that shitty Burger King. Then he'd be making $9.50 an hour! Holy shit! Doors of opportunity will present themselves to him and the world will truly be a better place when everyone can speak and spell a language that pronounces two words the same but actually spells them differently. It's not like that doesn't make sense or anything. And again, I do so humbly apologize for being such an idiot, and being so stupid and lazy. __________________ ------------- You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

12-10-2004, 01:50 PM	#53 (permalink)
Master_Shake Addict Location: Pennsylvania, USA	You're absolutely right! Thank you for correcting my idiocy. I know I'll be better off in the world of fast food. Consider: "Sorry I fucked up your order, sir. If I give you a free packet of fries THEN will you agree not to complain to the manager?" and "I know, it's so much easier cleaning the women's bathroom THAN cleaning the men's bathroom." I mean, they are so obviously completely different words, if by completely different you mean one letter or 25% different. __________________ ------------- You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

12-08-2004, 05:40 AM	#44 (permalink)
ScottKuma Insane Location: Maineville, OH	I HATE it when people say that a point is "mute" instead of being "moot." When I looked this up, however, I was surprised to learn that this actually means "a point open to debate." It's usually used to mean something that's "not worthy of debate" or "insignificant." I've also noticed an increase in people typing "opps" instead of "oops." Honestly, is it THAT hard to tell the two apart?

12-08-2004, 07:08 AM	#45 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	Basic grammer should be taught in schools, along with spelling. (Please note that I suck at punctuation.) When we did French Writing at school we learned a lot about the English language as our teacher had to go over the basics with us. Teaching kids to spell and write correctly keeps our languages similar. Can you imagine in 50 years an AOL kid talking to one of us, it would not even be the same language, its like people who actually speak in Leet today!

12-08-2004, 01:37 PM	#46 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	Teenagers nowadays use media and schools for standards. That's bad, my high school twas abismal in terms of quality, and newspaper are usually around a 5th grade level, magazines for teenagers aren't even on par with that.

12-12-2004, 06:05 PM	#54 (permalink)
Slavakion Mjollnir Incarnate Location: Lost in thought	...somebody's angry at the world. Calm down, it's just grammar. There's a time and a place for it. Yes, fast food isn't really the place. But does that mean that everyone who doesn't write for a living shouldn't know grammar?

12-12-2004, 06:19 PM	#55 (permalink)
william Psycho	JFM - no reproach. I can't speak of other Americans, nor would I want to. The internet has made a mockery of the language. I don't think it's even required of the teacher's grading system anymore. Good luck trying to improve the basics on the basics.

12-13-2004, 08:29 PM	#57 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	the different pronunciations of 'then' and 'than' are diminished depending on where you are from. These memes of mispronunciation are probably the main reason people spell out the wrong word (like mute instead of moot, affect vs effect) and it spills into a misuse of the word. Keep sniping each other and i'll shut this thread down and hand out warnings, if that's what you prefer. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

12-13-2004, 08:55 PM	#58 (permalink)
xxjuicesxx Upright	the fact is noone gives a damn about grammar except for retards. seriously if you cant just use common sense to create the meaning of a sentence that has bad grammar then its your own damn fault for being too stupid. i fucked up multiple times and i actually could go fix them and spend time doing it right but im not going to because everyone reading this can understand what im trying to say no matter how much of a run on sentence i type.

12-14-2004, 12:40 AM	#59 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	oooook looks like someone can't take a hint. Guess what, typing in a forum is like carrying on a conversation: if you misspell or mispronounce a word here and there most of us will overlook it and save you the embarrassment of correcting you. Don't interpret this as acceptance of your poor communication skills. The more mistakes you make the more likely someone is going to call you on it, or simply ignore you. it's too bad, this discussion had potential __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.