lindalove

What's different between drinking and doing drugs (if neither is an addiction, they're both just a casual every-now-and-then, just for shits and giggles kind of thing), and why would a person be more accepting of drinking over drug use?

For the sake of arguement, let's ignore the whole legality thing.

sadistikdreams

The thing is basically just the law.

If it weren't for the law, they'd be on the same level.

For example, we'd have just as many weed companies as we have beer companies, some would even be the same.

__________________
"Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone.
The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials."
-Lin Yutang

hearts, by d.a.

Slippery Slope

In my local pub a few years ago, the landlord was banging on about how bad he thought drugs/drug-users were. When I pointed out to him that he was making quite a handsome living out of selling the two biggest lethal drugs known to man (alcohol and tobacco), all he had to come back with was "Ahh, but they're legal"...

Everything in moderation, as far as I'm concerned.

hulk

In terms of drugs, alcohol is pretty low on the side-effect scale with moderate use. You can have a beer a day, or a glass of scotch or red wine, and you can quite easily live a long and happy life. You smoke a cigarrete a day, or a joint a day, or hit up once a day, you're not.

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

flamingdog

Who ever proved that a joint a day long term fucks you up?

Willravel

I've never seen a fight break out at a Phish concert. I have at a NASCAR event. As far as I'm concerned, being drunk (above maybe .07) should be illegal, punishable by being prohibited to drink alcohol at all for a given amount of time. If you break that, you go to jail. I know it's harsh, and I know people will really disagree with me, but the amount of alcohol related injuries and deaths every year is inexcusable. I think mj should be legal, too, but with similar limitations. I still see no reason to legalize ex, heroin, or coke. I know first hand what those can do and they are extremly dangerous, even in moderation.

Rodney

I agree with willravel. Alcohol can lead to violence, but it's socially acceptable, even macho. Weed does not lead to violence, but long-time dopers are seen as soft, slack, passive. Alcohol, on the other hand, is associated with manliness, and so on, so our society prefers it, even I suspect if legality was not an issue. Though it causes much more trouble than marijuana.

la petite moi

I think drugs and alcohol should be legal. It's all about moderation. Frankly, though, alcohol is much more dangerous than marijuana. Weed makes you sleepy; whereas, alcohol makes you depressed, slaphappy, or angry. My sister got her hand slammed in a door and bled EVERYWHERE when she was drunk. Weed mellows you out.

Willravel

I understand what you're saying, but I have to wonder what moderation is like with ex, heroin and coke. My first shot of heroine was all it took to ruin like 2 years of my life. The only reason mj is classified in the same group as the other drugs is because they are illegal. The similarities seem to end there.

pan6467

Alcohol is the only drug that is found in every culture known throughout history.

Other drugs are basically regional.

Alcohol is the deadliest only because it is legal. IMHO< Marijuana would probably have just as many DUI's, traffic accidents, fights, murders etc. if it were legal, and if it were to achieve the same amount of use. I know first hand that quite a few people caught with alcohol DUI's were also under the influence of weed. (I would like to see the true stats, I have a feeling we'd see some interesting results.)

Opioids, Coke, Meth, regular Amphetamines, Benzos, etc. are all illegal for a reason. They destroy lives and are extremely addictive.

Granted what business does the government have to tell us what is moral and what isn't. But when you truly see the effects of heroin, Meth, Crack, and so on and know if these were legal the rates of abuse and addiction would be unsustainable in cost, you'd realize just 1 danger. Other dangers include people nodding off with lit cigs, babies born addicted, the health toll each of these drugs takes on the body, and so on.

That said, being in the business I am in, I probably would make far far more if they were legal, however, I'd see that many more lives destroyed.

1 reason alcoholism is so rampant is because it is legal. If other drugs were legal the addiction rates would probably be equal to it.

I am for the legalization of marijuana but anything else would truly be economic suicide and addiction would hit epidemic proportions.

Don't believe me, come to work with me, I'll show you thousands of names that thought they could "moderately" do Heroin or Crack. Or thought Meth was ok and they could control the use.

I'll sjow you millionaires that blew everything on drugs, suburban kids who were just out for shits and giggles and fell in love with that first high and are chasing it all the way to prison, not because the drugs are illegal but because the high took over their lives and they couldn't keep jobs and ended up having to commit crimes to get the money to buy the drugs.

I'm not trying to preach, I'm stating fact. I work in the addiction field and I can tell you 99.99% of addicts always started believing they could control their use.

For some reason, drug use seems to be more prevelant in the US than elsewhere, maybe it is because they are illegal and it's a rebel type deal, or perhaps it is the society we have, or perhaps we can afford them moreso than other countries or it could just be that they are more available here even though they are illegal.

Who knows? I just know that with Coke, Heroin, Meth, and so on there is very little "social use" and far more addiction. Alcohol and weed seem to be able to be the only 2 that the user can sustain a moderate, social use of.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

hulk

All the people who died from smoking-related illnesses. Not to mention the smell, either.

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

highthief

There is a difference and moderation is key.

When you take the minimum dose of LSD, for example, you are really flying for several hours. You are out there. When you use heroin or crack with any regularity, addiction comes to the vast majority of users.

However a single drink doesn't really screw most people up the way a hit of acid does. It doesn't get you hooked.


Alcohol allows for moderation by the average user, certain drugs do not.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Rodney

The assertion about marijuana and violent crime is highly, highly questionable. I neither know of personally, or have read about, anywho who:

*Developed a towering rage after smoking a ton of dope and beat his wife, children, or girlfriend.

*Started a fight, or assaulted a stranger.

*Or (and this is only personal) got into a traffic accident or a reckless driving violation while on marijuana alone. But I know plenty of drunks who have.

Your point about some DUIs being under both the influence of alcohol _and_ weed doesn't apply. You're talking about someone who's under the influence of two different drugs -- the interaction of the two is a whole different animal. I've driven while under the influence of marijuana and once, under the influence of both marijuana and a whole lot of alcohol. While it probably wasn't a good idea, I had no problem driving while stoned alone. But with beer and marijuana together -- well, things got questionable.

Ask someone who's ever had to deal with a raging drunk who's also high on cocaine: the worst of both possible worlds.

I should add that I do not smoke marijuana these days (don't drink much, either). I consider it a waste of time and money. But so is the never-ending para-military government campaign we have against marijuana cultivation here in California: CAMP.

stevie667

Drinking is a fundamental part of western culture, its been around for as long as theres been civilisation, it's as much a part of us as wearing trousers and skirts (for the scots).
The 'Drugs are bad, mmkay?' view that the governments have taken out is what has caused most issues. Granted, there are a huge amount of stuff that shouldn't be let out into society (ecstacy, coke, heroin, crack e.t.c). If we did legalise during our generation, our grandchildren would probably have no issues whatsoever with drugs, because thats what they've grown up knowing.

If alcohol was discovered today, it would be highly illegial.

As with everything, education and moderation is the key, 'drugs' is such a huge catagory that its impossible to make a defining decision with regards to the original post.

A quick note, one can get stoned without smoking.

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pan6467

Again it is very hard to get true stats in that Marijuana use is illegal and not many are going to admit use.

Violence is violence and 9 out of 10 times the drunken sloth that beats his wife or starts a bar fight or whatever did so solely because of the alcohol excuse. Not because of the alcohol. The alcohol allowed the person to have something to pin the blame on. Marijuana would be the same maybe not right away but eventually.

I'm a big advocate in legalizing marijuana, but I also truly believe that you are going to face just as many problems with it as you do alcohol, if not immediately you would in the near future. To say everyone who smokes it becomes mellow and harmless is bunk, I have seen people freak out on it.

And yes, working where I work I have seen a few just marijuana drivers arrested..... it's not as prevelant because it is not as legal as alcohol, you don't have as many coming home from bars or parties that had smoked weed as you do alcohol.

My sole point is to say, having experience in the field I do, I truly believe beyond any doubt that you would have the same problems with marijuana as alcohol, and at probably identical numbers. Not because of the drug itself but because of the user and the excuses it allows for.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Rodney

I have the experience of living in a town where you can smoke a joint in full view of a police officer. And not get arrested. I have seen it on numerous occasions. Where so much marijuana is sold on the streets that the cops don't bother to bust dealers unless they try to "take over" a particular stretch of sidewal, which has happened. Where not only is "medical marijuana" freely distributed, but there is a special bed and breakfast inn for for sufferers of illness who use marijuana to amerliorate their symptoms. Where the city council essentially declared marijuana for private use decriminalized and so instructed the police and, in a public ceremony lighted up joints (several of them, anyway) on the steps of city hall. Why not? They all do it at home...

In short, I live in a town where smoking dope less serious a crime than letting your parking meter run out.

And what kind of users are doing the serious crimes? Crystal meth users -- and drunks. You see to embrace some kind of treatment philosophy that puts everything on the individual and ignores the specific qualities of the drug. You seem to deny that the drug has any real behavior-modifying effect at all, except as an excuse. So, there's no difference between someone on crystal meth, alcohol, and marijuana? It's all the same? From my personal experience, I can't accept this.

And if that was the case, legalize all drugs and be done with it.

ngdawg

Weed is well known for its medicinal effects.
It curbs nausea resulting from chemo.
It relieves glaucoma
Studies have shown it reduces the violent tendencies of Alzheimer patients
Studies are now showing that the active chemical in weed can slow the onset of Alzheimers.

Alcohol
Gets you drunk and stoopid.
Has no known medicinal effects-except maybe the one glass a day of red wine for your heart.
If I ever get really sick, I'm moving to Oregon:
http://www.stopthedrugwar.org/chroni...egonokay.shtml

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Fly

hey ng.........we're good to go up here too eh.


*lights joint...and keeps on reading*

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

jhkayakr

i can prove it, fucked up my short term memory

__________________
........gotta need for speed....

snowy

I love Oregon. And we have doctor assisted suicide too. Plus, getting caught with less than an ounce of MJ does not mean a criminal conviction: it's a citation.

Here is a good summation of our medical marijuana law:

Oh, and the prescribing doctor doesn't need to be an MD--homeopaths qualify too. I've been meaning to get a card because I have chronic back pain. Even if I never used the card, having it would be nice

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Hat

Remember that little experiment in the '20s called "prohibition"? Alcohol is just as deadly when it's illegal. If there's a demand, there will be those working to supply it, legal or not.

Either you have never smoked bud in your life or you had like, nuclear charged pot, because the above statement suggests you do not have any personal experience with the drug. I mean, has crime dramatically increased in the Netherlands since marijuana was legalised? The following is a quote from wikipedia (obviously not the best source but certainly good enough for a forum argument) -

In any case, the onus on you is to substantiate your claim. Marijuana is legal in the Netherlands, so get cracking on proving your argument.

Alcohol and cigarettes destroy lives and are extremely addictive.


This has hardly been proven. There's much more persuasive argument to the contrary. By legalising drugs the purity and overall safety could be ensured/increased, addicts could openly seek help with their addiction, street crime would decline, etc etc...

Prohibition says otherwise.

If I had a red cape I could probably jump tall buildings in a single bound. Do you have any sort of evidence to support what you're saying? What addiction rates are you talking about?

You seem to be under the impression that the drug trade is a very small economic force. It isn't. Imagine the tax revenue legalisation would bring in.

Your post is pretty much an exercise in speculation. I don't see a fact in sight.

Funny that. A country with one of the strictest drug policies in the world has has an extemely high prevalence of drug use...hmm. Think about that.

Well coke, heroin and meth are harder drugs, and rarely can one buy them in their pure form. Further, it's much more difficult to get help with the addiction because these drugs are ILLEGAL.

crow_daw

I think that it's definitely good that alcohol is legal. People need their release, plain and simple. I mean look at what a colossal failure Prohibition was. However, it is definitely just as, if not more, dangerous as marijuana.

That being said, while I think that mj is definitely no worse than alcohol, it can definitely be a very bad thing. I've seen first hand the terrible effects marijuana can have on you. Not everything is measured in physical terms. Marijuana can completely rob people of all ambition, motivation, and drive. And to me, that is just as tragic and debilitating.

However, some people can handle marijuana just fine, as some people can handle alcohol perfectly fine. Others can't. It's give and take with this problem. But society has absolutely GOT to have something. It just so happens to be alcohol right now.

On the other hand, crack, meth, heroin, etc, is absolutely unacceptable, IMHO.

__________________
"We each have a star, all we have to do is find it. Once you do, everyone who sees it will be blinded." - Earl Simmons

Willravel

I have a theory that every time someone brings up the fact that alcohol is dangerous, considering it is legal, someone will retort sarcasticaly about the prohibition. I also have a theory that this isn't the 1920s, and no one here is suggesting a prohibition. It's no secret that alcohol consumption DROPPED DRASTICLY during the prohibition. Althought bootleggers and gangsters were able to beat the authorities regularly, it was not the complete failure most people paint it to be.

Everything else I basically agree with, though the tone was a bit unplesant.

doodlebird

do you by chance have kids?

they'll make you stoopid too.

but i don't think they should be illegal.

i can only speak to what i know...
i've done mountains of stupid shit while drunk.
the dumbest thing i've ever done high on weed
was watch some bad tv or maybe forget to take out the trash.

__________________
xoxo
doodle

ngdawg

Dooooood....don't bogart that joint, my friend...pass it over....to meeeeeeeee

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

pan6467

And your point, I never said alcohol wasn't deadly, in fact alcohol's effect on the body is far worse than most other drugs.... it turns into adelhyde (Like formaldehyde) in your body. It does very nasty things, especially in great quantities.

Legal or not the demand will be there, yes, but with legalization, the demand will definately go up as will addiction.


Crime is down in a European country that has legalized drugs and that is supposed to mean what in the U.S.?

If your argument here is to say I am arguing crime would go up because of marijuana use, you are partially right and partially wrong.

I argue that the same exact things we see people blame alcohol on will be the same exact things they will blame marijuana on.

But until weed becomes truly legal and use is comparable to alcohol use... we may not know. ANY DRUG has differing effects on people. Weed may make most people mellow but it may also cause some to become very violent. Especially those who will abuse it and not have the ability to control their use.

Same with alcohol, far more users of alcohol drink and can control themselves because they drink responsibly. You hear of the wife beaters and so on because far more people drink alcohol because of it being legal....

I disagree with you there is no onus on my claim because you are comparing apples to carrots. The Netheralnds probably has far less alcohol "crime" also. Plus, I may be wrong but I don't believe there is as much road traffic as there is in the U.S.

As to whether or not I have partaken, and if I have what effect it has had on me..... that really has no bearing on my argument.



Again, your point is? So because alcohol and cigarettes are legal and destructive, every drug should be legal? I really don't see the point.
Also, with the hooha over cigarette secondhand smoke imagine the full blown hoohas over secondhand pot smoke, or opium smoke, or herion smoke, or freebase coke smoke.



Do you work with addicts also on a daily basis? And the drug addict can get all the help they want, it's there and trust me they know about it. You honestly believe that Opioids, Cocaine, Meth and so on if "pure and government approved" would be les addictive or safer than the street drugs????

I deal with this for a living.... Oxycontin, Oxycodone, Hydrocodone... BENZOS all legal, all prescribed have addiction rates that you would not believe. Oxycontin is nothing more than pharmaceutical heroin. And there are people who started taking these drugs, who never did another drug in their life, were social drinkers and have no addictive characteristics and became addicted and lost control not realizing it because they were prescribed and they thought the drugs would be harmless until they hit a rock bottom.... DUI, car accident, missing family time because they were whacked out, whatever..... I deal with it EVERY DAY. THESE DRUGS ARE PHYSICALLY ADDICTIVE.

By all means contact the drug rehab centers in the US and ask them about these "legal and safe drugs".

After that you expect me to believe that making these drugs available to everyone would lessen addiction rates in the US?

Prohibition lasted 10 years, during prohibition it truly is hard to say what the rate of alcoholism was. I have a feeling far far fewer people drank and that the rates were less. As was the crime, as were all the negatives attributed to alcohol. So in fact, by using this argument that during prohibition alcoholism was less and has since grown, the same could be said about other drugs. Legalize them and watch the numbers in addiction and crime increase.



I'm a drug and alcohol counselor, I have in the field experience.... I'm on the battle lines.... ask drug counselors, ask others on the front lines dealing with true drug addicts and alcoholics every day what they think. You might get a different answer from the Hazeldon, Betty Ford, Glenbeigh people who deal primarily and only with those who have HUGE money, and have relapse rates greater than places like my employer or some of the other city/county/state/fed funded places. Mainly because the people that go to them were court ordered, job ordered and so on. Places like the small city/county/state/fed funded places or those places that fight to keep their doors open, because they treat the addict that doesn't have the money, usually get clients that are truly in rock bottom of addiction and want to better their lives.

The country club places are just those, don't get me wrong Betty Ford, Glenbeigh, Hazeldon are great places. Any addict will get whatever they truly want (whether it is recovery, a pit stop or whatever) from any rehab place. It is all in what the addict puts into it, and the staff. If the staff teaches the client to hold themself accountable and to teaches them ways to live without using then that place will have a higher success rate.


If I gave you that impression, I truly am sorry. No the drug business is as big as any Fortune 500 company. I don't argue the economic side.

Tax legislation on marijuana would be beneficial, I already stated, I truly am a big advocate for its legalization. However, Cocaine, Opioids, Meth, Benzos.... a tax on those might if we were lucky be enough to cover the users hospital bills and the damages to innocent non users.


Believe what you will, I can pull a HOST and give you article after article after article written by people like me ON THE FRONT LINES OF ADDICTION, confirming everything I say..... but you'd dispute them also because you obviously want to believe what you want to believe and people who deal every day watching what true addiction does to people and lives, like myself you won't believe.

By all means come to work with me for a week and take a look around at the people you say don't exist or wouldn't be in the condition they are in if the drugs were legal, marijuana addicts, coke addicts, opioid addicts.... then listen to them and compare their stories to the alcoholics and see for yourself....



I don't think we have the strictest drug laws .... Japan, China, Turkey, Arab countries, to name a few, are far worse than us.

We also have more people, more income/debt spending, a more free society, a more drug oriented, feel good, change reality society, we have family units that are not as close as other countries and so on. So to compare countries without taking in the cultures and atmospheres is comparing apples to carrots. They may not even be in the same class.

We also have more people, so we may have more users but the percentages maybe the same. Not many legal or not are going to admit to addiction. So claiming the US has more or fewer addicts is truly unproveable.

I stated possible reasons why this is above in a previous post.



You are seriously wrong there.... where are your facts????? Again I work in the industry and I know how easy it is for even the poorest of addicts to get help.... granted the help isn't funded very well (I will skip the politics), but the help is there, available and the street and suburban addicts know it. As with any other public service it is understaffed, underfunded and the demand is high so there tend to be waiting lists and treatment going to the worst cases first..... but I can guarantee, at least in the facility I work in and the organizations I have dealt with.... not 1 of them has ever turned away anyone because the drug was illegal or because of finances (except those "name places" that will only take insurance clients).

So don't give me bullshit and say the help isn't there.... when I work in the system and I know better.

The true issue is the suburban types who worry more about image and what others will say, are usually too proud to go into the same treatment centers that treat the poor drug addicts. So they continue until they have serious problems where rehab becomes their only hope.

Their insurance IF they are lucky will pay 50% for a 28 day program, 1 time.... and most insurance companies will even fight that. If for instance in my report on group if I don't include a client remark..... they can flag the client's whole stay. Regardless of whether or not the client wanted to say anything.

As for purity..... obviously you don't deal with addicts.... an addict can tell almost right away how good the drug is and how pure it is. If it's not good then business to that dealer will shrivel up fast because his name will be dirt on the street, if he isn't seriously hurt or killed for the cut. So the belief that drugs are cut to any major degree is just a fallacy. There's no money in cutting the purity that much.

In the end, if you are for legaliztion of all drugs again, it doesn't matter what someone on the front lines says because you already have you opinion. It's just like anything else.

Before I started working in the field I argued for legalization to, I though if government controlled or regulated the distribution to some degree and the drugs were purer, we could tax them and make massive money and noone would be harmjed. But working in the field and seeing the losses, legalization would destroy us. Even the vast majority of addicts I deal with believe legalization would destroy far more people. People who chose not to do the drug because it was illegal and they didn't want to go to jail, people who chose not to buy because they were scared of what they may get, but if it were legal and available and they didn't have to worry about jail or the purity....... they'd be there. Opioids, Cocaine, Meth and Benzos are all very physically addictive..... even if they were ever regulated by the government.

BTW..... the DSM-IV does have Marijuana as addictive.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

msh58

its the person not the drug. no rehab anywhere will admit that. i come from a family of heavy drinkers who carried on responsively and it didn't effect the rest of their life.

I'm the only one that alcohol affects this much though i'm holding on and paying my way through life legally with a couple of jobs always in jeopardy.

legalize more drugs and you get more people that find out that they feel better intoxicated in some way than any of the ways they were taught about being ambitious and it bringing great things. Any kind of social progress will slow the more drugs that are available to young people to get their hands on. because once ya discover the one for you and it fits nicely, why bother with the effort to make an effort.

pan6467

Cool, if that's where you live and that's the way it is there..... then everyone should be happy campers.

I answered most of this in the previous post. I just wanted to clarify the portion of your post I highlighted.

No, if I felt that Marijuana was as dangerous as Meth, Coke, Opioids, I wouldn't be for legalizing it. And regardless of how it may look or how I may sound (it is hard to convey the exact tone or my point on the internet because I am lousy at that conveying those at times), I am very much pro legalizing marijuana, especially medicinal. And I would have no problem with clubs one could smoke it legally in. Who knows I may even be seen in one occassionally with a date.

But I also believe, legalization would increase use enough to where crime and fights and what not would be blamed on it as they blame alcohol.

Now, I'll explain my philosophy.

I am not of the belief that all addicts are deep down good people. Assholes are assholes, and some people choose to believe that they can blame their addictions for being the way they are. To some degree, the physicality maybe true. The mentality and actions to some degree maybe the addiction.... However, addiction will only take you as far as you allow it to.

I am a firm believer that the only way you can get an addict to truly recover is to make them face responsibilities for their actions, to admit that they allowed their addiction to take them where they did and that THEY not the drug are accountable for their actions.

I do not buy into the excuse that "alcohol made me hit my wife the past 5 years" or that "heroin made me rob that 7/11". People who drink and get violent and know they get violent have a choice.... don't drink seek help if you can't stop. The heroin addict has the choice, seek rehab to help physically get off the stuff, seek counseling to understand why the psychology of the need is there and find a better way of life.

I am just stating the fact that by legalizing Marijuana or any drug you will have those excuses. With Marijuana legalization, the demand will go up, more people will use and thus more crimes will be attributed to it because more people will use it as an excuse. Including DUIs...... you chose to smoke and drive. Not the pot's fault.

Now, I do believe people can change. That the Asshole can become a better person. Yes, first they have to face their addiction, but then they have to make life changes.

It's pretty much what the 12 step programs teach. The reason some people don't like them is that they do not want to change their life. That is why you will have "dry drunks" , and we all know those people who stopped drinking or drugging but pretty much are the same assholes now that they were when practicing their addiction.

My belief and the way I treat my clients is this: you can't change the past but you can change your future. Own up to your addiction, own up to your actions, accept responsibility in your life for those actions and let's work who you are and find ways to better who you want to be.

People who allow themselves or others to blame the drug and not see that they allowed themselves to go there to begin with, are people who will relapse, who will always look for the "easy way out", will always look for someone or something else to blame for their problems. These people will never truly recover and reach their full potential. If they stay clean and sober, they will most likely stay who they were when they used.

That is my philosophy, and my belief. It seems to work for quite a few people I have dealt with either professionally as clients, as a sponsor, as coworkers who have reached the same conclusion or true 12 step successes.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevie667

HUGE bump to Pan6467.

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Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

Hat

Dude, no need to write an essay! This has taken me ages to reply to!

The demand may go up slightly (or more, who knows), but I'd imagine drug related deaths/crimes/etc would go down. A fair trade off in my opinion.

I don't think the US is fundamentally different to any other Western Democratic country. Which means that, aside from the adjustments that would have to be made for the differences in US society, the end result would likely be the same. My point is not that it would without doubt work ina similar fashion as it has in the Netherlands, only that it is possible (if it didn't work it would be the fault of whichever politicians worked upon the details of the legislation).

I don't mean to be rude here, but this is partly where personal experience comes into play. We do know that marijuana does not have the same effects as alcohol on people. Marijuana may have a negative psychological effect on people, perhaps, but this hardly ever (as in, to pull a estimated statistic out of a certain orifice, 0.0001%) manifests into any sort of physical action which could bring harm to others. To say that it may cause "some people to become very violent" is simply false. It doesn't. Those who abuse marijuana may become an emotional wreck, but if they become violent, or steal (etc etc), it is not the drug that is the precipitator, it is that the person was just an arsehole to begin with.

People who beat their wives do so not because they're alcoholics, but because they're the excrement of the human race. If alcohol was unavailable to them they'd just find another substance to abuse/blame.

Sorry, but of course it does. I wouldn't attempt to argue about string theory unless I'd done a few dozen physics courses at uni; nor would I discuss the finer points of piloting an aircraft unless I had actually flown one extensively. You may argue that drugs react with different people inv arying ways, but for the most part the effects different people experience on the same drug identical, or at the least extremely similar.

Both alcohol and cigarettes have restrictions placed on them. Obviously the trouble with any physically or psychologically altering substance is placing a reasonable set of restrictions upon it. Just because I believe most illicit substances should be legal, doesn't mean I also believe they shouldn't be highly regulated, controlled and restricted.

Things aren't so black and white. Perhaps you're not considering the problem of perception. Those with an alcohol or smoking problem may be looked down upon by society, but a junky? They are seen by the wider population as trash, as people to be scorned. How many hardcore junkies still have the support of their families and friends? And how much easier for them would it be to get the help they needed if they still did?

Did you consider that the problem in this case, then, is not with the drug, but with the careless doctor who prescribed it?

No, really? In other breaking news, THE SKY IS BLUE!!!

Available to everyone? Who said that? There is a rather large difference between making something legal and selling it in aisle 5 of the local supermarket, next to the mars bars and doritos.

Yes, we both seem to lack experience in the opposite areas. Hah!! One's as relevant (or irrelevant...) as the other.

Sorry, but I think you have me confused with someone else. I'm not claiming what you've seen "ON THE FRONT LINES" (this isn't the Somme, dude) isn't real, or doesn't happen, and I fully acknowledge the problems of drug use. I'm not arguing about that, I'm arguing that these problems are partly perpetuated by society's attitudes and laws relating to drugs, and its methods of treating them.

I never claimed you had THE strictest laws, merely that the they were strict.

I'm not convinced. The last thing I mean to be is patronising, but while the point you're trying to make may have merit, the above paragraph suggests that you have extremely limited personal experience of other western cultures, and/or have not studied them in depth. What do you mean by a "feel good, change reality" society? How is US society "drug oriented"? And "family units that are not as close as other countries"? These statements are too vague and generalised to support an argument.

Most things cannot be proven beyond a doubt, and in any case, debtaing this particular point won't really get us anywhere because I doubt you, like myself, have the time to dig up facts and figures that support or refute the two sides to the argument.

I've in part addressed this earlier, I think, but anyway...so the help isn't funded very well, is understaffed and is in short inadequate to meet the high demand. I'm arguing that this would improve, were the drug legalised. Public perception needs to change, junkies need to be treated less like criminals and more like people with a medical problem - and the way to do this is to legalise drugs, or at the very least decriminalise possession and use. I mean, how popular would increasing the funding for rehab clinics be with middle America at the moment?

I've pretty much already addressed this, so see above, I guess.

Yes, and if you're against the legalisation of drugs, it doesn't matter what I say "because you already have you opinion". Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about the legalisation of ALL drugs, but I do think most should be, with varying degrees of regulation.

Look, I completely respect what you're doing, and I also respect your views on legalisation, I just disagree, heh.

I know I haven't replied to everything you've said, but I simply don't have the time, unfortunately. Please don't make your reply too long.

Skettios

I have nothing against either drugs or alcohol, but I think people misuse them all the time.

I actually like pot quite a bit, but I'm glad it's illegal, mainly because I really really really hate hippies. My apologies to any of the hippies on the board.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

flamingdog

That's proof? I'm looking for something a little more concrete.

And what does the smell have to do with anything?

dawnylou

At one time I would have been inclined to say that drink and drugs were really one and the same (other than by law of course).
However having recently seen the introduction of Crystal Meth into our country I now withdraw that statement. I am horrified by the utter seriousness of the consequences brought by this drug - and I have now realised that I was perhaps a little naive at first.

Drugs can be much more lethal and have more devastating effects.

I know that alcohol can have terrible outcomes - but nothing as terrible and widespread than something such as CM!

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"A blowjob is just like having a wank in the bath"
"I'd say it was more like fucking someones face"

pan6467

First, I want to appologize. I am extremely passionate about this topic because well, not only am I employed in the field, I thoroughly enjoy talking about it, and finding differing views.

I do think you bring credible debate and I like the fact you don't just call bullshit on what I offer, but you back up your beliefs and why you believe my statement to be bullshit.

That said I assure the reply will be short.


Perhaps. Gang activity may go down, but overall drug related deaths and crimes, I'm not to sure about. Unemployment would probably go up as more and more companies drug screen.

My field in addiction counseling would definately go up and I am sure more money would flow into it. Hey, I may even get a huge pay raise.



It is possible, or the exact opposite is possible. One has to ask is the risk worth it.



I absolutely agree, as I stated in another post, people who do the things while on drugs allowed themselves to do it, the drug didn't force them to. However, you would definately find more people blaming the drugs and thus popular opinion would be "look what drugs make you do". Which is the fact now and one major reason people are against the legalization of them.



I have partaken, and I truly like weed at times. But other times, it makes me very horny, extremely paranoid and scared to death I'll always be that way, which I feel is out of control.

I just am not convinced you can tell how the reaction to everyone will be. Again, you have to ask if the risk is worth it.


We have that in prescriptions and they still get abused. If you legalize, regulate, control and restrict, the black market and crime that you are trying to avoid, will still be flourishing to get the addicts what they want but for whatever reason can't get legally.

Also, the black market would just find ways to lower their cost below the government's. Which without the tax government would put on it, probably would be easy to do.


Not all junkies and addicts are "trash" that maybe the common perception, but studies have shown that the "skid row" addicts only account for 5-10%. Most people on "skid row" usually have mental health issues and if they are addicts are self medicating because they cannot afford help.

And believe it or not, at least in the area I live in, it is easier for an addict to get long term help than it is for the mental health patient. And mental patients may need long term help more.


Absolutely, the average doctor goes through 8 hours of addiction training in his whole schooling career.

But, once these people are addicted and the doctors stop writing prescriptions, they doctor shop, they go to the streets, they do whatever they have to, to get the drug. A good example (and I am not using his name for any other purpose other than his high profile and very public drug problems) is Rush Limbaugh and what he has gone through.


Actually, here in Ohio the sky is only blue 4-5 days a month, the rest of the time it's a nasty gray....



Already covered.



Not sure what your saying.... but opinion is that and this is a field that everyone's experience sways their opinion and in doing so you can find facts easily to back your opinion up. ..... kinda just like everything else in life it seems.



The "FRONT LINES" is a term we use at work. It is very much a battle helping people who swear they want it, then change their minds and start to fight you and the system developed to help them.

The attitudes of the public are tough, but they are becoming better. There is a massive movement in the industry right now for counselors to have criminal justice backgrounds. Mainly because drug courts are popping up left and right and the whole industry is seeing that is where the money for treatment will be in 5-10 years. The options of treatment centers for the poor and non insured are decreasing, they are there but the waiting lists are growing.

Sad quick story...... St. Thomas Hospital has Sister Ignatius Hall where Bill W. and Sister Ignatius started A.A.. This at one time was a renowned center that treated anyone regardless of what they could pay, they had 2 floors dedicated solely to helping addicts recover.

St. Thomas became part of Summa Healthcare and is now down to 6 beds and refuses anyone without insurance that explicity covers addiction. In other words, unless you are insured, you get no help from the place A.A. started. St. Ed's another Akron Hospital that was just as reknowned and famous, was bought out by Akron General and their program was cut severely and there are rumors that it may totally be gone soon.


Mental illness still has a nastier stigma than addiction and those are the people that truly have problems with getting help or wanting help.




The divorce rates here are higher, the elderly in other countries usually live with their children whereas here nursing homes are huge business. I believe rates of kids on Ritlin and other drugs is far higher, we are just less family oriented as a nation than other nations. That's my opinion but all the reports and studies I have seen pretty much show this.

"feel good, change reality" society = a society that turns to drugs for everything. I maybe wrong but I don't believe the common European, Australian, or Asian worries about getting a pill for toenail fungus that turns your toenail yellow.

Again, whether it is because we "have" the money or because of our culture and the advertising or whatever, it appears that the US relies more on pharmaceuticals to live and to achieve happiness than other nations.

Although, I have a feeling other nations maybe catching up.


I truly agree, attitudes on changing the perception in some areas has to change.

As for increased funding...... that's a tough question. Like I said the funding is pretty much going to the criminal justice side of it.

That said, there will always be treatment available, but the big huge part isn't funding, it's in the addict themselves.

I mean where I work our detox is bombarded by "repeaters" who come in get cleaned stay sober for awhile, then relapse and come back in and keep living in this cycle. They in fact eat up quite a bit of funding and time that could be spent helping other people who have to wait for that bed, yet on the other hand, they keep our numbers up so we can have funding.

It's a catch 22, you cut repeaters down and tell them they have to wait 6 months before they can come back.... you run the risk of lower numbers and less funding. This is one of our biggest problems and hardest to figure out how to deal with and solve.


I hope this was short enough......

And don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate your opinion. I may have even had similar opinions at one time.

Again, I wish debates in politics were as civil as this one was.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Yeah, CM is a horrid drug. Not only does it destroy the person who does it, but when they bust the labs and the clean up people have to wear toxic waste suits to dispose of it...... makes me wonder why anyone in their right mind would even want to try it once.

They also say that the labs after they have been closed down, can be uninhabitable for months or years because of the toxic residues.

And people choose to put that shit into their bodies???? Amazing.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

hulk

Smoking a joint a day means you're getting a joint's worth of tar in your lungs a day. You keep that up for ten years and it's going to affect you adversely. Considering there's been not one legal study on humans in the US it's difficult to get exact figures, but you can use common sense here. I'd imagine in the future problems will develop in countries that have legalized it and can see the effect on a wider scale.

As for the smell, I sure as hell don't enjoy it. Bong water is about the most vile substance known to man, ick.

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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

CSflim

Wow. That makes a hell of a lot of sense!

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Glory's Sun

OK.. this thread is forever long already, but I'll just try to throw my bit in. First.. I highly doubt that smoking <i>ONE</i> cigarette or joint a day is going to do much damage. That's pretty good moderation if you ask me. I guess you could compare it to studies that show by drinking 2 alcoholic drinks (no more, no less) actually increases your health. Ok ok .. cigs won't do anything good for you.. but smoking one isn't going to do much damage either. If you're worried about that little bit of harm... quit breathing.. there's over 50 years of jet fuel falling on you.

Secondly, did I really read that crime probably went <i>DOWN</i> during prohibition?? Prohibition created one of the worst black markets and created a crime wave unmatched to today. Just like the Harrison Act (iirc) outlawed cocaine creating another black market which we have to thank for current incarnation it is today.


Ok.. now without going through all the long essays, I'd say the best solution would be to legalize drugs with limitations. I.e. only a certain amount is able to be possessed, you can only get drugs from licensed dealers. So in other words you'd have to get the stuff from an actual store. Much like you could in the 20's when you could get liquid cocaine from the pharmacy. There'd have to be more limitations/rules/guidlines of course but I think it's a great starting point. I'd love to see how many people quit using drugs because it wasn't as much of a rush because it was legal.

hulk

Probably not nearly as many that would take it up if it became legal

Tangent time - on the subject of prohibtion, would it be correct to conclude that while it did cut down overall alcohol use, those who were abusive of the substance largely remained so? If that's right, then all it really managed to do was remove the ability for those that drank intelligently to indulge. Any experts on the topic?

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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

Hat

pan, sorry I haven't replied yet, been busy...I will try and get 'round to it tomorrow.