welshbyte

Although i don't believe in god as anything that any "established" religions claim their deity to be, i still like to keep an open mind to the subject and have a dynamic opinion rather than static belief of what god might be. The closest thing i've heard to what god might be and, more importantly, what it isnt, is almost summed up in a quotation from one of my favourite movies, Stigmata:
The movie also focuses on how the established church as an organisation is totally unnecessary and i think that is totally true. No one should have to give 10% out of every pay cheque to a middleman who, in all likelihood, would only muffle the voice of the worshipper and confuse people about what they are worshipping - God, or the church.

In all honesty, in difficult times i do whisper some prayers under my breath e.g. "Give me a break" but it isn't directed at anything, or any god, in particular. Its directed at life as an anthropomorphic abstraction in my mind and maybe the tiniest possibility that there is a god - an example of desperate measures... couldn't hurt to whisper something after all, especially when it gives substance to a sigh.

__________________
There are only two industries that refer to their customers as "users". - Edward Tufte

Kalnaur

Isn't the ultimate evil the attempt to control others through force? But is God really part of the church? Or is the church a sham to make us think we are believing in a true god. I do believe in a God. I do not believe in the words of a church, but instead look for a meaning in the twisted words that actually makes sense. Is the bible really the word of God? Hell no, and it should never be thought of as such.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Kalnaur

The romantic era poets believed that God was a presence felt all around us. I must say that they had a better grasp on God than any church goer does.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

MiSo

in my opionion.. god is only a figment of your imagination.
when a person feels lost and believes they cannot do/have anything.. its because the person is weak and they need someone to grab onto. there are times when i do that also... when im in trouble, i might talk to myself. "god, please ___yada yada ______".
you're doing nothing but talking to yourself.

another view on religion... many years ago the greeks believed in multiple gods. (zeus, hera, hades, aries) nowadays, people all view those as tales and do not take these gods seriously. so in a few thousand years people might say the same about todays religions.

there's also science vs. religion
how the universe was created, evolution, dinosaurs etc...
i'm a science person so of course religion makes no sense to me in this dept.

here's a question:
do you believe in life on other planets?
it would be pretty narrow minded to think that life only exist on earth.
do you think aliens believe the world/universe was created like you do?
....i'd believe they have a different explantion for it.

to wrap it up:
god is "someone" people look to when they feel they're lost and need help because they're weak and no one likes being alone. but doesnt actually exist. its human nature to not want to be alone.. so we create something thats not there and look up to it.

aurigus

Are you saying that you control God and what kind of control he has on your life?

But God supposedly is omniscient and all-seeing, all controlling. God created everything and has a "purpose" for everything. Why would "God" create satan?

OFKU0

I don't believe in God. I don't believe in heaven or hell. But when I die, if there happens to be any of the above, I will gratiously admit I was wrong.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Kalnaur

All powerful, not all controlling. There is a difference. He has all the power, but also all the knowledge to know when it is most useful to the universe as a whole as to when to use it.

God does not have a purpose for everything. He knows the possibilities and probabilities of all things, as he is all knowing. Therefore he can look at all the information and put out a best guess. Is he always right? No, be he's got a better track record than Zeus, Odin, or any of the other gods (which incidentally, I do believe other gods exist, I just choose not to worship them).

Why would God create Satan? For the same reason he created people. Did he create things to be perfect? He did not make Satan because he had the capacity for evil, but because he had the small chance of being good. And that was a chance he was willing to take. It might not have been the best gamble, but he took it. Now, throught a slow process, he is having to reclaim us one by one because of this gamble. And yet I still love him as I know he loves me. And he does so because if I wanted to go sacrifice infants, he'd have the attitude of, "What you do dissappoints me, but I will wait until you can better understand." I have the choice and the power because he created in me free will, and will not undermine that.

God is not the church. I don't know why people think this, but most of the attributes that the church gives God are those they have given him, not the ones he has. It's like waging war in the name of God. You would think, as a human, that if someone waged war in your name, you would do anything in your power to stop that person (unless you had given your blessing). However, if God stops you, he stops your free will, and that is the one thing he will not do. If he does so, he offends the argument that he has made against Satan: that man does not need someone to choose his life for him. God asks any who believe in him to explain that you have to choose him to be with him in his heaven. It is your choice, not his. It is your choice to ask him for help, likewise, because if you don't ask for help, he won't give it. This is because if he tries to meddle in your life by giving you unwanted "advice" this shows him trying to control you.

Satan wants to control you, not God. He also wants to show that the ends justify the means, and that "ethical" is a mere point of view instead of the yard-stick we measure our fellow man with. If something has 2 or more of these traits, consider the source. After all, one of the few truths that can be found in the bible is that even evil men can speak truth. The devil is similar in operation to the title character of Hook: he won't lie when he can tell the truth, because the truth is far to much fun. He will use twisted logic, circular thinking, and close-mindedness as tools to convince you that your way is the only way.



These are my current beliefs (though not all of them, it is a good chunk. I left out the whole soul thing for lack of an entire space devoted to a 20 page paper on my belief system. Hell, I'll be lucky if this doesn't bore most of you to tears.) as they exist right now, and I have been given, by God himself, the right to change them if I see fit. I do not think they are "right" inasmuch as I do not think they are perfect, but currently they work for me. That, my friends, is freedom of choice, my God given right.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

aurigus

"Best Guess" and "All Knowing" are not two statements that go together. If he is not always right, then he is not all knowing.

Likewise, if God is all knowing then how did he not know that satan would turn out evil? Would it be fair to say that since God created everything, he created evil along with good? Why not only create good?

Why does God give us free will? Why did he not create us only to do good?

Scorps

I don't believe in god and thats all I'm going to say. Before I start a fight!

Livia Regina

Out of curiosity, why do you believe in multiple gods and why, believing in them, don't you worship them?

Personally I go with this:
1. I exist
2. The world exists
3. I didn't make either of the above
4. Therefore someone else did (could have been a god, many gods, or we could be some alien kid's 3rd grade science project)

I like the idea of a creator who made the universe and then left us to our own devices.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

Kalnaur

All Knowing means that he knows everything. Since there is no such thing as fate, knowledge exists on the level of possibilities and probabilities. Therefore, all knowing is a statement that goes together with best guess. (And since knowledge is power, he is also all powerful. See how that works?)

I addressed Satan above, but to make a long story short, because everything God does, he does of his own free will. After knowing what that is like, how could he deny us a choice? He gave Satan free will, knowing he might be a bad seed. I think that if Satan were willing to just get some balls and say, "you know what God, I thought I could do better than you, but I can't. Sorry", God would say, "it's ok." Because he would be shown what Satan feels and thinks.

"Good" is a moral term. There is no such thing as "good" in a community sense, because good hinges on morals, which are the individual concepts of good and evil that resides in each person. Morals do not exist as a societal ruller by which we can measure everyone, because we cannot hope to apply thoroughly human concepts such as morals to such a broad cattegory as "all humans" Only ethics, the thing most or least benifical to you and your fellow man are aplicable to humankind as a whole. Under that idea, God has all knowledge about the possible ways to use his absolute power for ethical and unethical ways. He chooses ethical because in the long run it works better than unethical. He has learned this after trail and error (again, back to the fact that God is not perfect by our human definition of perfect, because our definition is tainted by morality). He then gave all his creations the same choice. We were created in his image. That is to say, our souls were given the capacity to uderstand the ethics of God, and the free will to choose, but we were not given the knowledge with which to use it. He put us into a situation where he said don't eat this fruit or you will die. He wasn't lying, and we've been dying ever since. What we seemed to not understand was that we keep on recycling until we get it right. Our souls, being energy, can not be made or destroyed, only converted into other forms of energy. If new souls must be born, God shifts energy into the form of a soul, a conciuosness that understands and thinks, but requires knowledge to be complete. He wants to see how we seek this knowledge because in seeing it, He can understand the value of such knowledge. That is to say, God knows that knowledge is a powerful force, but since he's had his from the begining, he might know what gaining knowledge feels like but he has never felt it. God can gain understanding, comprehension, but no more knowledge.

So in giving us free will and setting our souls upon a course where we continue living in different forms to gain not only knowledge but also understanding, he can come to know, through the link between us and him that is the "Holy spirit", what it is like to gain the knowledge he has (Which is the purpose of the holy spirit; that and to be our inner Ethics-o-meter). If God had given us only the capacity to do ethical things, he would never come to understand why it is that he does not feel compelled to do unethical things. He created us so that we could help each other. He gives us life, knowledge, experience and a form inspired by divinity, and we give him an understanding of just what he has always had.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

Kalnaur

If I can believe in my god, why can't I believe other gods exist? Isn't that like saying, "Earth is the only populated planet in the universe"? A little egocentric, don't you think?

As to why I worship "God" (Whatever his name really is) vs say, Odin.

Believe in "God" and that he understands your life, good and bad. Go to heaven, live forever.

Believe in Odin, party down in Valhalla until the end of the world, then die forever in a glorious battle. Unless you happen to be one of the 2 people that will be reborn after the end of the world (some tales predict more than just 2) and end up rebuiling the world without any divine influence whatsoever; exist without the love or light of your gods ever again.

I'll take God. His soul retirement plan's a bit better in my mind.

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

TexanAvenger

Just as a matter of interest/debate, maybe this has already happened... maybe there has already been some kind of existence and we are what came of that. If that were true maybe we ARE without divine influence or the light of [our] gods.

By the way, I'm just bringing it up as a point of interest. I'm not saying you actually believe it, especially since you clearly took God as your first team pick.

Livia Regina

So would you say that whatever I believe about an afterlife is what will happen to me? That we are all correct in our beliefs?

I'm not trying to argue with you, just understand.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'

Halx

So, basicly, it doesn't matter that you're right or not.. it just matters that your soul is taken better care of when you die? I think that logic falls right into my 'teddy bear' statement.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Kalnaur

What is right, how do you define it? There is no right or wrong, no good or evil. there is only the ethical representation of benifical vs. harmful. The more benifical something is to man as a whole, the better it is to do so. I do not feel the need to be "right" because I know I never will be 100% right. I also know i will never get rid of the human desire to be "right", so I combat it each day.

Perhaps you have no soul, Halx, because you believe you have no soul. There are people who have so convinced themselves that souls do not exist that they lose theirs. In that case, you will be nothing more than worm food upon death.

However, the true human being is the soul, what's inside, not this mass of flesh and bones. Our whole physical self is nothing more than a vessel, a jar. It is the part of us that is aware of our existance in the first place that carries on.

And Livia Regina, I do believe that all thing people believe in are equally true. Odin exists every bit as much as my God does. As do all things seen and unseen. It's one of the few things I remember from church that I still agree with. I believe in my God, how could I not believe that the other things exist to, or at least have a chance of existing. (before you ask, that does mean that, though I have no physical proof, I believe that all mythical creatures exist/could existin some form. I will continue to do so until it is proven otherwise.)

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

newMaster

Hmm... I think everyone is entitled to what they want to believe in. You can try to evangelize to whoever it is, but its up to one's self to believe... or not to believe. If you want a reason for any religion, then what is faith? Religion is based on one's faith, isn't it? If there is a scientific or logical explaination for everything, I guess we will be God instead...

billege

Can I be allowed to make a cheap post on this one? I just basically agree with Halx on this one, and don't feel like retyping it to change the semantics.

Thanks for typing it out for me.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Halx

Kalnaur, I just think you're saying things exist when they don't. You're saying they exist because the resolution is better if they do than if they don't. You're erring on the side of caution. To me, that's like telling someone who you know is doomed (fatal wound, illness, impending break-up, placed a bet in favor of the Miami Dolphins) that everything is going to be fine.

I mean, why even ask questions? Why even bother with something you can't even define? Sounds pretty pretenious to me... like an artist trying to explain to something why his little doodle is worthy of notice. I had a line in my signature for a couple days... I think it pertains to this discussion: Art is not genius in itself. It is convincing people that it's art that's genius. Take it even further and you see how humans are just mystified with sensationalized things: celebrity culture. Celebrities are no more perfect than you or I, yet they are regarded as outstanding human beings, given attention, money and praise without even earning it like WE have to.

God is just the ultimate celebrity. He's had a few millenia to build up his rep, too. That's pretty awesome for something that doesn't exist.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

thingstodo

I think first and foremost you impress yourself. Then, it's not about impressing, it's just about doing right.

Most organized religion fills a need for people that they can't find elsewhere. They need structure or they need something to believe in to explain why they are here or what crap life has delt them. For many others, spirituality is something they foster within. In ages past and, I personally think to some extent, religion was a way for the "leaders" to control the masses. That's why, again, my opinion, the catholic church and many others developed with a strong political bent. There would be just one Christian religion if politics wasn't involved.

__________________
If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves.

Stangers have the best candy.

Tophat665

I am of two minds about this post. Firstly, I am not an atheist. That takes every bit as much committed faith as being a hardcore fundamentalist. Nope, I am an agnostic, so if it smacks of any superiority, it is the superiority of one who has figured out that both sides are arguing over nothing that can be known, and has opted out except for popping into debates such as this one with the latest "it could work this way - let's see who buys it".

Now, whether or not there is a god, I can see more reasons not to worship that to worship.

1) The inverse of Pascal's wager: There is more than one religion that claims to be the only true religion. Therefore, rather than a situation where there is even money of a reward or oblivion, there is instead a situation where there is at best a three way split between eternal happiness, nothingness, pain. Since there are many more than two mutually exclusive religions, the odds are on pain. I will not opt into that game. (Frankly I am with Halx on the one hand, and, on the other, believe the afterlife is the subjective eternity that happens in the nanoseconds to hours that it takes for you brain to shut down when it's all over.)

2) Occam's Razor. It is, lacking any evidence one way or another, simplest to believe that what you see is what you get. There is no need to posit an all powerful being to posit that you are here, it is now, and time seems to move from birth to death.

3) There really is no conflict between "echoes of higher brain functions" and "God the almighty". They could easily mean exactly the same thing. In fact, I am pretty sure that this is the case and has caused untold suffering and death over the millennia.

4) Back to Damnation/Wrath/Eternal Punishment. No god who incites its followers to do violence to others or risk eternal damnation is worth a cup of warm piss. No god that will burn a human soul for all eternity for eating a shrimp or laying with one of one's own sex, or touching the skin of a pig deserves my respect, let alone my worship. No god that will demand one sarcrifice one's son, or who will sacrifice its own progeny is anything that I care to acknowlege, let alone laud. If there is a prevailing air of arrogant superiority among atheists and agnostics, it is for this reason. Slugs worshipping the salt bottle, fish praying to the hook, lambs following the shepherd to the slaughter pen. How can one not feel superior when one opts out of an arrangement like that. There are Christians (who I respect) who claim that god is love. (Higher brain function, right there.) They don't seem to me to be the majority, and, even if they are, they surely don't seem to make enough noise to be one.

So that is my argument:
It is unneccessary, unfortunate, and unkind to follow gods. It is equally unnecessary to believe that there is not a god. There is nothing wrong with feeling superior about denying the whole shebang and just trying to live well.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Halx

i completely disagree that it is unecessary to not believe in a god. I believe I've stated my side quite clearly through several posts.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Tophat665

Hal,
The only thing of your post that I am endorsing specifically is your idea that our life after death consists of other people's memories of us. I was not clear about this, so it looks like I was trying to put words in your mouth. My apologies.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Kalnaur

Halx, do you believe in ghosts?

__________________
PC: Can you help me out here HK?
HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags.
PC: And the other 2 percent?
HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

DLChaney

I just take a step back and ask a few question, i am irish cath...which is totally different

in the times of greeks and romans, they used gods and goddesses as an explanation for the unknown (zues created lightning, etc) this became the basis of most religions, a basis for explaining the unexplainable.

people basically fathom religion because people need leaders, they also need guidelines for living life, and something to blame, and also thank in times of good and bad. This is another reason for religion.

It is also known that alot of religions have similar god-like figures, this could possibly mean we are all on the same level, just giving different names and meaning to the same general ideas and people.

In my own personal opinion i think the human mind is to small to view the inner workings of the universe as a whole, so religion is just a small section of the whole ideal. As in we are all right, but only on a small working part of a greater mechanism

its kind of hard to explain, but i will give it a shot

the whole idea of religion is one BIG pie, but the human mind has boundaries and we do not have the ability to understand all the interworkings of it.

for example, Buddist monks believe in reincarnation and acheive inter harmony, etc etc. But this is just a small section of what is really going on, they arent wrong just viewing a small section of a larger idea

Then you have Christians, who follow the word of God, and belief in Christ as saviour, now i cant go off and explain how this falls in line with Buddhism, because they are two different sections, but inner harmony is very similar to moral standards, stories of Noah and the Ark has about 7 different version, there is an extremely similar story about a man named G'nesh (sp? correct name?). These stories relate almost to the specific details, bird bringing olive branch, 2 of each animal, etc. So two different religions viewing the same story, but telling it slightly different.

thats about the best i can explain it, if you can catch on to what i am trying to say, here is the best way i can explain it: I dont settle for one explaination of religion, just for the simple fact that there is a basis for belief in all religions,so its in my best interest to view religion as a whole because they all seem to run along the same lines, and a thing as large as life, shouldnt be view with tunnel vision.

As for your friend, she has discovered something that gives her direction in life, guidelines, and mob-mentality has great sway on the mind, she sees others believing, so she begins to believe. Christianity has given her something to look foward to, something to believe in, something to follow, and something to work with, religion has filled a hole for your friend

chickentribs

Just want to jump in quickly with 1 or 2 short observations. There are a lot of ideas being tossed around that easily warrant their own threads, like the particulars of given religions, what are morals, God and Satan shaking hands and making up (huh?), etc...

What I took from Jaded's first post that really stuck with me is why is it that smart, rational people have to toss logic out the window in order to go to church on Sunday. If you are somebody that is compelled to find answers, to continue to learn new ideas in your life, work, and relationships - to evolve as a human race - how do you quit asking questions and accept carte blanch the story you were told and justify it with "faith"? Faith kills learning and pursuing new ideas out of fear that something may come up that won't jive with the all important story that's been told.

Could their really be a God that would judge people based on us questioning the very essence of spirituality? I mean come on, if he does exist his self-esteem has GOT to be better than that, no?

I respect religions, and do think when all is said and done they probably have done at least as much good for people as the bad they toss into the world in the name of themselves. But I can't respect faith. It is a cop-out and says "stop asking questions". And you can say we risk becoming "only worm food" for pursuing truth, I would wager you have sold your human spirit out for your story.

For what it is worth, I have read some of the most intelligent and logical arguments for religion and Jesus here at TFP. There are some very strong people with theology backgrounds who show up in the Philosophy Forums, and it's pretty interesting to read through the arguments. Cool. Thanks for the time.

__________________
Oft expectation fails...
and most oft there Where most it promises
- Shakespeare, W.

Halx

No, Kalnaur, I do not believe in ghosts.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

rfra3645

God.... if there is no God then i am forced to except the big bang.. i cant so i dont.

i believe there is a God. that created well everything. i was just going to narrow it down to "us" but really it has to be everything.

if there is no God and i choose to believe that there is. therefore i choose not to think about eternity whether it be me being worm food, or an angel, or a demon, or possibly a cat. and it turns out there is a God, well im screwed.

basicly the bible which is supposed to be Gods word says this. if you believe in me and ask me to be your Saviour i will. sure there are litteraly 1000's of "other rules" but the basics are believe ask worship .

as i was in church this morning we sang a song saying this. you are God thats just the way it is. and i had to really comprehend that. it is that way because God made it that way.

he wanted us to have a free choice which forces us to choose everything from is there God to what will i wear today.

i do not believe "us humans or this world" is or was or will be his 1st work of art. i do think we may be the 1st he has tried to convince that he was genius by creating us. i mean really create a world create people give them choice give them a guide ( bible) give them flesh (jesus) granted hes not here now but he was. ( if you believe any of the bible or religious things. let them decide if i am a genius or God. if they choose i am God then i am also genius.

i dont think "Christians" "condemn" non believers i think they just want to "save" them. part of that saving is telling them they are condemned.

if a church taught this: do as you want serve yourself believe in God but dont follow thru with anything else dont worry it will be ok you will go to heaven. ( i guess you could think about church as Gods "school".

but then as you converted they started with oh and then theres hell. dont worry about it what we said still counts but there is a hell and if you just decide to become one of us then you have to believe in hell and God. because you cant have 1 w/o the other. i think most people would be like yeah right. whatever. the church would essentially cancel out the good they were trying to do. so they are just upfront from the beginning. there is a God there is a hell. you choose 1. if you dont your defaulted into hell.

i dont nessacarily agree with that. but its basicly the deal. it goes back to choice. you have it. if you choose to believe in God or not to believe to in God either way you ARE choosing.

so i guess my synopsis is this when we were created we were given choice. along with choice comes faith.

i see about 40 people in this thread have already chosen 1 way or the other. i believe everyone chooses whether they acknowledge there choice as i and 40 others in this post have is another choice they make.

__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

Halx

rfra3645 ... i cant read your post.. you must learn to separate your words into paragraphs.

However, your first couple sentences tell me that you are severely mislead. Nobody said you had to accept the big bang. Where did that come from?

The belief in a god to explain everything we cannot currently explain through science is like believing in Santa, the Tooth Fairy and thinking that Storks actually brought your little brother to your family.

The greeks made up myths to explain the things they could not explain through science. We are a few millennia removed from that kind of thinking, wouldn't you say?

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

rfra3645

as far being forced to accept the big bang ok maybe thats a bit extreeme.. yes halx yor right there are plenty of other options. that 1 was just at the top of my head. since the first post asked about your personal opinion i was giving mine.

ill make it plainer here. i have to belive in something. i choose to belive in God. others choose to belive in the big bang or buduah i have to confess i dont know much about this one. perhaps mohomed. some choose not to belive in anything. some to choose to belive in them selves.

im not here to convice my way is the best. i think it is but i highly doubt my banter could change your mind.

as far as just beliveing in science. im not so sure. that sounds like prove it or it cant happen.

forgive this secario but . 9/11 coudnt have happened because no proved binladen was training terrorists to fly.

obvioulsy we all know it did hapen.

i dont think we as a people are beyond using myths to prove stuff.

the way i see it our society is totally there.

we try to prove myths false in order to give meaning to.... i suppose evreything..

__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

Halx

Wrong again.. you don't have to believe in anything. I don't. I just see things as they are and make decisions as logical extensions of my solid knowledge.

Your analogy about 9/11 is invalid. They found several flight schools where the terrorists learned to fly.

Myths are just that.. myths. Don't you know the defnition of the word?

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

rfra3645

they found the flight schools after the fact. my anaologie was meant to be said before the fact. if someone would have said someone will crash planes into building causing a war. i belive evreyone would have said no. that cant happen. then it did.


i didnt say you have to belive in something i said you have the choice what to belive. i also said it can be anything. you choose nothing.

myths are in fact this
a (usually collective) tale, fable, or dogma that unconsciously symbolizes the activities of the collective unconscious. Natural, intermediate stage between conscious and unconscious cognition. Like religious symbols, myths aren't invented, they arise from the unconscious. Example: legends of the "treasure hard to attain" symbolize the inward treasure of contact with the real Self we must struggle through so many issues to locate. Jung says myths describe inner reality more accurately than so-called scientific truths. They are a kind of therapy for the problems of humanity. They also let a person know what's going on in his unconscious

www.tearsofllorona.com/jungdefs.html



so if you choose to belive this deffintion it is your unconsious talking.

deffininton unconsious

unconscious mind: that part of the mind wherein psychic activity takes place of which the person is unaware

www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn

if you are unaware then why does it become so widley belived?

what i hear you saying is that people belive myths becasue they cannot prove someting one way or another.

i say we as a civilesed society try to prove myths one way or the other. if no answer can be found we write it off as nonsense.

__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

Halx

Taking the accute psychological examination route, eh? I'm the minority, therefore there must be something wrong with me?

I guess the world IS flat.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

rfra3645

???

i think neither am i the minority

or the world is flat

youll have to do better....


really with a response like that in my eyes i won...

__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

Halx

What are you trying to win? Seriously, I hate to get off topic, but please create full sentences in the english language. It's the only language I know how to understand. It's also evident that you did not understand me.

My remarks used sarcasm to insinuate that your logic was flawed and limited, once again. I was demonstrating that your logic would bring the logical conclusion that the world is flat, had it been applied 500 years past, when it was just a small minority who believed that the world was in fact round. The majority is not always correct, so do not rely on the testimony of billions of others to back up your story.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

d*d

Sorry to sound defensive, that was not my intention, I understand an atheists point of view perfectly, I am not a religous person and I understand where you are coming from with asking to be called sir analogy because I disagree with anyone attempting to force their beleif on others, however I find athiesm can be a very closed minded view of the world and a lot of people posting their atheist views come across with a superior attitude to those who have their belifs..

My beleif is that since even with science we know so very little about our universe (and absolutely nothing about what lays beyond) the argument that god does not exist because he cannot be proved is a little futile, I don't like organised religion because I find it secular and exclusionist but i respect their beliefs and accept that they may be valid. Just becuase you are unable to have faith doesn't mean that those who have are in any way less mentally capable or gullible

rfra3645

well we both agree i didnt understand. as far as full sentences in the English language go. well i neither practice or use the English language. i guess that is my flaw.

as far as my logic being flawed i dont understand that either. what i hear you saying is that it is flawed because you dont agree. despite what billions of other have testified to.

i guess i still dont understand what you are saying. you have offered no science (something i gather you must have in order to draw conclusion) or hard proof hell even soft evidence of your argument that i think you are saying there is no God.

all i see is you saying my proof or testimony of others ie: bible isnt good enough for you. thats fine. im not trying to convince you.

you went so far as to say what i brought to this conversation was myth and could only be conceived as such. i offered deffiniton of myth that you asked for. and then you claimed my phscyological examination was a cop out.

somehow you got that i thought i was a minority of something? i dont.
(white male , blond hair, blue eyes) with the belief there is a god. i dont perceive either of those traits as minority.

anyway i have not offered the statement the world is flat. i dont see how you think my logic is referring to that analogy. my guess is this. you think that because i am having faith in the bible i am having faith in a complete stranger. and taking what they say as truth. somehow that is the same as the old world people telling Chris Columbus that the world is flat?

i believe he went to prove them wrong.

same as i belove that someday you will also be proven wrong.

will i be the one to do it know. do i have a closed mindset possibly.

do you in your opinion? that there is no proof so i cant be.

absolutely.

i guess if i was a strong charismatic type i would say i am trying to win you over for the good side. but im not. and if you choose to think the way you do . fine. i dont care. i was just offering my opinion on this matter.

yeah yeah im a typical high school drop out. not smart enuf to type and organise quality sentences or paragraphs. but i dont see that as a incredibly low side of life.
i could have no belief system whatsoever.

__________________
this post is a natural product made from recycled electrons.
the slight variations in spelling, grammar and punctuation
enhance its individual character and individuality and are
in no way to be considered flaws or defects.


if you cant read my post i dont want to hear about it move on. thanks

aurigus

I think gods were mainly created for 1 reason: because we don't know everything. They are created to explain why we are here, what we are doing, the so called "meaning of life".

However science has never proven that anything like him exists. Rather than go on "faith" I need to see proof of something. Believing in something until it is disproven is false logic.

Halx

ok.. rfra3645.. you are completely misunderstanding everything I say. I would guess that's fairly inhibiting if you wish to join in a debate that's being held in a language that you do not use all the time.

aurigus, that was a short, sweet and to the point.

d*d, it's easy for ANYONE to sound elitist when they talk about their views, I believe your point goes both ways. However, it is hardly a reason to completely deny one line of thinking just because it's believers are very adament. What's this about organized religions being 'secular' ... the very definition of the word is the opposite of organized religion. Exclusionist? They would sooner have everyone in their church! Come on!

Look, the very simple basic thing here is that people WITH faith ARE gullible! They fit perfectly into the very definition of the word. You've used 3 words in 2 sentences which you cannot properly attribute. I really hate when these things come down to semantics, but if you really do believe in what you're saying, why don't you work a little harder at making your point?

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

Livia Regina

Lots of my Christian friends complain about the churches becoming more secular. They are changing their teachings to attract more people. An example would be the female or homosexual Anglican priests. They aren't changing the Bible, they are just omitting things or explaining away the objections. That may have been what d*d was talking about.

__________________
Rule 37: There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload.'