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Old 08-27-2003, 10:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question That Has Been Bugging Me.

Ok, I know that you can get a concealed carry permit for guns. How about a conceal carry permit for knives or other blades weapons that exceed the 4 inch blade limit.
Thanks.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Depends totally on your city and/or state.

Some permits are for "Concealed Weapons" in which they include knives, some do not.

If you really want to know for your area/state, I would call a local gun shop (a bigger one). Chances are excellent at least one person there will know the law on it.
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Old 08-28-2003, 06:18 AM   #3 (permalink)
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In most states, it is easier to get a CCW permit for guns than it is knives. The thing to remember is that the vast majority of knives are entirely illegal to own, including such things as steak knives. The law is just not enforced much. So, while you can theoretically get a CCW for a knife, you would have a tough time finding one that was within the limits of the law and still actually useful for defensive purposes.
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Remember also that a gun is a far better defensive weapon than a knife, since is does not require the same proximity to your attacker. You will have trouble explaining to a jury why you felt the need to stab an attacker to death...
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:26 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
Remember also that a gun is a far better defensive weapon than a knife, since is does not require the same proximity to your attacker. You will have trouble explaining to a jury why you felt the need to stab an attacker to death...

Totally false. The vast majority of street attacks will happen very close to the victim. Very rarely will you be far enough away to safely use a gun on your attacker - after all, if you're too close he can take the gun from you. Give me a knife any day. Harder to take away from someone that's trained in using it, easier to carry, and more useful in the range that most attacks happen.
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Knives take much more training to use properly, and they are useless against an attacker with a gun. DOJ reports that the average shooting occurs at a range of 7 yards. How can you use a knife at that range? Muggers do not just shove a gun in your ribs, criminals may be lazy, but they are cunning. Now if my attacker had a knife, I would still want a pistol. I gaurantee I can do more damage to him in a close fight with a pistol than he can do to me with a knife, and in less time to boot.

Again you run into the legal problem, how do you convince a jury that you are justified in stabbing someone?
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Old 08-28-2003, 01:45 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I disagree, first off, that knives take more training to use properly, but then i suppose it's all in your definition of properly. If by properly you mean you can put a bullet somewhere near the X ring on a somewhat reliable basis, then yeah, I suppose you're right. I consider proper use of a gun to be the ability to put steel on target damn near every time, and to also have the discipline and training to avoid shooting someone you shouldn't - which not only includes not aiming at the wrong guy, but also includes knowledge of what the bullet will do once it's hit the proper target. Hell, even veteran cops aren't very good at that - there have been several incidents where a cop's bullet has bounced off and hit someone who was not the target.

Any combat with any weapon or with no weapon requires a lot of training if you're going to do it properly. There are far too many people out there running around with guns who think that because they took a range safety course with their dad when they were 10 they're expert gunslingers, and that's simply not the case. Anyone who tells you guns require minimal training is an idiot.




As to the legal problem, which sounds better to you:

"I was walking down the street when he tackled me, said he had a gun, and demanded my wallet. I had my pocket knife in my pocket and somehow I managed to slash him across the chest and then I called the police" (by the way, don't stab your attacker, slash him - more immediate pain that way, which will break off the attack faster)

or

"I was walking down the street when looked like he was going to tackle me so I blew his head off" This is in keeping with your statistic that most shootings are done from such a great distance - after all, unless the other guy has a gun, why the hell aren't you running away instead of shooting him? And if the other guy has a gun, presumably it's out already while yours is still in your shoulder holster, so he's already got the drop on you. You're screwed either way.
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Old 08-28-2003, 07:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
I disagree, first off, that knives take more training to use properly, but then i suppose it's all in your definition of properly. If by properly you mean you can put a bullet somewhere near the X ring on a somewhat reliable basis, then yeah, I suppose you're right. I consider proper use of a gun to be the ability to put steel on target damn near every time, and to also have the discipline and training to avoid shooting someone you shouldn't - which not only includes not aiming at the wrong guy, but also includes knowledge of what the bullet will do once it's hit the proper target. Hell, even veteran cops aren't very good at that - there have been several incidents where a cop's bullet has bounced off and hit someone who was not the target.
First off, this is a great discussion.

Now to my retort:

When I say that it takes a lot of skill to use a knife, I mean it in the context of using lethal force against an attacker in a fluid situation. Just about anyone can shoot a person, very few of us can effectively use knives. Granted there are many other factors that make up "proficiency" with a weapon, but you can make a mistake with a firearm and still kill your attacker deader than Kellsey's nuts with no problem. If you messup with a knife you will find it in your gut.
Quote:

Any combat with any weapon or with no weapon requires a lot of training if you're going to do it properly. There are far too many people out there running around with guns who think that because they took a range safety course with their dad when they were 10 they're expert gunslingers, and that's simply not the case. Anyone who tells you guns require minimal training is an idiot.
Absolutely, see above. However, a complete rookie could take a pistol, shoot me, and kill me. The same cannot be said of a knife. Anyone with a modicum of athletic ability can defend themselves from a novice with a knife with a good chance of success.
Quote:

As to the legal problem, which sounds better to you:

"I was walking down the street when he tackled me, said he had a gun, and demanded my wallet. I had my pocket knife in my pocket and somehow I managed to slash him across the chest and then I called the police" (by the way, don't stab your attacker, slash him - more immediate pain that way, which will break off the attack faster)

or

"I was walking down the street when looked like he was going to tackle me so I blew his head off" This is in keeping with your statistic that most shootings are done from such a great distance - after all, unless the other guy has a gun, why the hell aren't you running away instead of shooting him? And if the other guy has a gun, presumably it's out already while yours is still in your shoulder holster, so he's already got the drop on you. You're screwed either way.
First, remember that both shooting and stabbing are considered lethal force. If you feel that you must defend yourself with either knife or gun you should be killing your assailant. The only way I know to stab someone will result in their (almost) instantaneous death, which is the same way I shoot.

I would not shoot someone who "looked" like they were going to tackle me, I'd have to be sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that my life was in danger before I took someones life.

That being said, most criminals will not brandish a weapon in the commision of a crime, they will simply state that they have one.

You hit the nail on the head. Why not run away rather than shoot. An equally good question is why not run rather than use a knife? If someone attacks me with a knife, and I shoot him, it is obviously self defense (since most people won't pull a knife to defend themselves from a gun). If he attacks me with a knife and I stab him (or slash him), it simply looks like a knife fight. Both situations beg the question, "Why didn't you run?".

The simple fact is a gun is a defense against any type of attack (barring alien abduction or nuclear bombardment), a knife is not.
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Old 08-28-2003, 10:05 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by debaser
First off, this is a great discussion.


.
Quote:
Absolutely, see above. However, a complete rookie could take a pistol, shoot me, and kill me. The same cannot be said of a knife. Anyone with a modicum of athletic ability can defend themselves from a novice with a knife with a good chance of success.


Yep, it is a great discussion! I disagree that a rookie could take a pistol and kill you. Sure, if it's a non-dangerous situation for the rookie - - i.e. you're tied up and can't hurt him and he can take his time aiming, then yeah he can kill you. If, however, you're busy charging him down with a gun of your own out and he thinks you're gonna kill him, he'll get the adrenaline dump. Never having had any training, he'll have never experienced this before (hell, very few schools train for this for that matter), his hands will shake like crazy, and he'll be lucky if his shots go in the same cardinal direction as you.

That just goes to my point - I'm not against guns or knives. I'm just against all those damn fools out there that think that posession of a weapon guarantees protection by the weapon. Just because I'm carrying a knife, a gun, or even something as simple as a club, doesn't mean it's gonna help me worth a damn unless I know something about using it. I've talked to too many people in the area where I live that ran out and bought a gun for protection and then didn't even bother to learn how to shoot the stupid thing properly.



Quote:
First, remember that both shooting and stabbing are considered lethal force. If you feel that you must defend yourself with either knife or gun you should be killing your assailant. The only way I know to stab someone will result in their (almost) instantaneous death, which is the same way I shoot.

Well that's certainly true, which means you should never pull your weapon unless it's truly a life or death situation. Again, that goes back to training, as most of the gun mishaps on the street involve yahoos who don't have the proper training but think they're fully qualified to evaluate hostile situations.




Quote:
I would not shoot someone who "looked" like they were going to tackle me, I'd have to be sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that my life was in danger before I took someones life.

but that's YOU! You obviously have had more than rudimentary exposure to gun-based self defense. The VAST majority of gun carriers out there have not!


That being said, most criminals will not brandish a weapon in the commision of a crime, they will simply state that they have one.

Actually in most muggings involving a weapon, the criminal will not tell you they have one or brandish it. And usually it'll be a knife. And usually it'll be hidden and you won't know about it until it's already put a few holes in your gut. This is why reliance on guns for defense is foolish (in my opinion of course). Too many people run around thinking "I have a gun, I'm protected, no one will hurt me). Only problem is, you can't shoot someone who comes up to you and asks you the time even though that's a common ploy for a mugger to use to get close enough to use a knife on you. The guy who thinks guns are the end-all and be-all of defense will probably die, whereas the guy who has trained in street-combat oriented martial arts has a much better chance of survival.



Quote:
You hit the nail on the head. Why not run away rather than shoot. An equally good question is why not run rather than use a knife? If someone attacks me with a knife, and I shoot him, it is obviously self defense (since most people won't pull a knife to defend themselves from a gun). If he attacks me with a knife and I stab him (or slash him), it simply looks like a knife fight. Both situations beg the question, "Why didn't you run?".
Because if you're close enough to slash your attacker, you're too close to necessarilly be able to run. If, however, you're standing 15 feet from him and you shoot him, you have no possible excuse.



Quote:
The simple fact is a gun is a defense against any type of attack (barring alien abduction or nuclear bombardment), a knife is not.
I guarantee you could be attacked in such a way as to render your gun useless. The cold hard reality is that if a mugger gets the jump on you, you'd better be good with hand to hand because you may not be able to pull ANY weapon at first, if at all

Last edited by shakran; 08-28-2003 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 08-29-2003, 08:02 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Hmm, I'd rather have a gun than a knife. Frankly, if an assailant has a gun, he has the ultimate advatage over me - range. Regardless of how competent he is with that gun, I cannot harm him from the DOJ's 21ft distance, he can, however, harm me as I close the gap. Admittedly, a motivated person with a knife can close 21ft in an awfully short time, but it is still enough time to get shot.

I also have to wonder about the trail afterwards. While it never looks good to have killed someone in self-defense, I would think it far easier to prejudice a jury against the defendant if they used a knife in self-defense. There is a visceral reaction against such a concept.

The idea that your attacker could take your weapon away and use it on you is a moot point in this case as it applies to any weapon. The idea that you can disarm your attacker while you are unarmed is a moot point for similar reasons.
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Old 08-30-2003, 08:41 PM   #11 (permalink)
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OK, you have valid points, but in reality, how many muggers are going to stand 21 feet away from you and shout at you to give them your wallet? They're gonna need to be close so they can do it more quietly - - -after all if you shout loud enough to be heard 21 feet away, someone else (cop) might hear you and take you out. Most muggings happen very close - in trapping range - not far away. Guns are pretty much useless in trapping range if you don't have it out already before the attack starts. Even then, the guy can take the gun from you. Knives are faster to deploy, harder to take away (contrary to popular belief, if you're close to the gun, guns are much easier to trap and take away than knives are - - -you don't have to worry about cutting your hand off on the gun. If I were gonna rob and kill you, I'd get close to you and stab you - and if you're like most of the population, you'd never see it coming. If you want proof of that, play a little game the next time you're walking down the street. See how close you can get behind someone before they notice you're there. When I've done this, I've gotten not only directly behind people, but I actually have to move directly alongside them before they have any clue someone's back there. Were I a mugger, they'd be taken out LONG before they had any idea I was near them. Most people are like that. Carrying a gun doesn't do you any good if your awareness is so crappy that you have to actually be hit before you know a fight is coming.

My central point in this thread is that so many people carry guns and think they'll be safe, but they not only don't learn to use a gun properly, they also fail to learn how to see (and avoid) bad situations before they're unavoidable.

You have to remember that American society wants everything quick, cheap, and easy. We don't want to work for anything. That's why car stereos have remotes, we have drive-thru funerals (no lie), and almost every product advertisement has quick, easy, free, or instant in big letters on it. As such, people want the quick solution to personal safety (I'm a-gonna get me a gun) even if it won't work without putting a lot of effort into training to use that gun to defend yourself. They'd rather go with the illusion of safety than put the effort into actually being safe.

BTW, and to turn this into a total rant, that's the central problem with American society as I see it. People are satisfied with crap as long as it projects the illusion of quality to everyone else. That's why you see idiots driving around with $500 of crap stuck on their car that they think makes it look like a $50,000 race car. That's why stereos have thousands of blinky lights and all sorts of exotic-looking materials, yet still sound like crap. As long as people keep building the illusion of quality (or in this case protection) around them without actually getting any quality/protection, they'll continue to be in constant danger of major disappointment.


/rant
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Old 08-31-2003, 09:09 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Shakran, I'm with ya. We're on the same page, to an extent. I have a CCW. Do I carry a gun? Not usually. I carry a knife. I don't have a gun at my bedside, but I do have a horkin' big knife (I figure I don't trust my judgement waking up in the middle of the night and don't want to accidentally pop a round into a dressing gown hung on the door).

I've shot all my life, literally. I like guns. Own quite a few of 'em. I've carried a knife on my person for about 90% of my life as well. I like knives, own plenty of 'em. I've trained in various martial arts forms and know a bit about knife defense as well as gun defense. I spent a bit of time training in Kali-Silat so I know what to do with a knife in my hand.

I would still rather have a gun.

I disagree on your statement that most muggings occur in trapping range. We apparently either have a different opinion of trapping range (ie grappling range but still standing, at least in my book), or you are reading radically different statistics on crime scenarios. And I still say that almost every argument you've given against a gun (many of which deal with weapon retention) are equally applicable to knives.

I understand your argument on false sense of security, but I don't agree with it. I personally think that the average person is actually more secure with a gun than with a knife simply because brandishing a gun will usually make an assailant flee, regardless of how he is armed. Brandishing a knife is sometimes seen as a challenge, wanting a fight. In the vast majority of situations where a citizen pulls a guin on a crook, the situation is resolved peacefully. (John Lott, "More guns, less crime" based off of DOJ, FBI, and other statistics)

As I have referred to, I want every advantage I can gracefully assume. That means I want range just in case the other guy has. Please remember though, I still carry a knife constantly, and do so even when armed with a handgun or otherwise. I'm a big believer in the efficacy of blades when proiperly wielded.

Can't beat the option of range though.
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Old 09-03-2003, 01:34 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you look at the statistics of how many people are actually killed by knives, it is not that high. Sure, if a man who outweighs his wife by 50 pounds sticks a knife in her ten or fifteen times, she usually dies. But when one man attacks another on the street and the two are actively fighting, the one without the knife is often not killed. To kill a person with a knife, you need to sever major arteries which are deep in the body or puncture the lungs or heart, which is protected by the ribcage. To actually ram a knife through the ribcage while that person is fighting you is not that easy. This is not to say that it cannot be done. But given a choice, I would rather take the gun. It is as fast as the knife, it is not any easier to take away, it really scares criminals, and dead criminals cannot sue you. try to come close enough to grab a gun away from a person, and they will shoot you.
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Old 09-04-2003, 07:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Devil's advocate time, Pocon1, the primary use of a weapon in a self-defense scenario is psychological. If the 'victim' produces a weapon, it tends to have exceedingly negative effects on the morale of the assailant. Gun or knife, it changes the situation. While I am on your side as to choosing a gun over a knife, the simple fact that a knife strikes you as less lethal is moot in the majority of cases.

Actually, a retired police officer that I know is of the opinion that he'd MUCH rather be shot than stabbed, given an option. The two times he was stabbed were FAR more painful and took much longer to recover from than the time he was shot.
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Old 09-04-2003, 07:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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It does bring up a good point though.

If you do stab someone in self defense, and do not kill him, you can be held liable for his injuries in civil court.

If you stab him to death you will be tried in criminal court, since, as was said, the chance of getting a single fatal blow in with a knive is very slim.

Pretty much a lose/lose situation.
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Old 09-08-2003, 07:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Actually, in both cases you will likely be tried in criminal court. Most DA's are ever so much more likely to decide not to prosecute a defensive shoot than a defensive stabbing. Knives really do carry a significantly negative connotation in the legal system.
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Old 09-08-2003, 12:03 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Actually, in both cases you will likely be tried in criminal court. Most DA's are ever so much more likely to decide not to prosecute a defensive shoot than a defensive stabbing. Knives really do carry a significantly negative connotation in the legal system.
...which in an of it self is really interesting, don't you think? I wonder why? Maybe this should be a thread of its own...


In Europe, they both hold VERY negative connotations. Knives are just far more prevalent over here than guns.
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Old 09-08-2003, 12:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'd forgotten about this thread!

Myth: Your assailant will run when you brandish a gun
Fact: He might pull his own gun, and he's probably used it more than you have. If you're TRAINED in guns, then guns are great things to have. If you, like most gun carriers, have not been TRAINED (by that I mean you've actually trained to shoot, not that you've passed the minimum requirements for legal carry), then you're in danger. Never try to brandish a weapon that you don't know how to use, lest it be taken from you and used on you.

Myth: Knives are much less deadly than guns
Fact: Knives are every bit as deadly as guns. Many people react rather badly to even relatively superficial cuts. The rule of thumb is that once you're cut, you have 3-5 seconds to do what you need to do before running the risk of weakness or loss of consciousness. If you're unconscious, the knifer can cut you apart at his leisure.

As to why knives are considered more dangerous than guns, well I'll admit I'm mystified. They're not. In fact, guns cause far more deaths than knives do, yet people accept allowing the public to carry guns while being irrationally afraid to let the public carry knives. My guess would be that it will take all out gang shootouts with automatic rifles spanning whole cities before people realize that knives aren't more dangerous than guns are!
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Old 09-08-2003, 05:59 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Uh, actually, most thug-types don;t exactly spend time at the range. Most intelligent CCW holders do. Police officers, who only spend a moderate amount of time on the range, statistically have something like 4 times the hit numbers of criminals. The criminal uses a weapons solely as an intimidation device in most muggings.

Again, read "More Guns, Less Crime" and look at the number of crimes stopped by simple brandishing of a gun by the potential victim.
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Old 09-10-2003, 02:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
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They say don't bring a knife to a gun fight....

Seriously, though, you want to be able to respond with appropriate force. If a BG is 8 yards away and has a gun (or claims to have a gun!) you want to be able to respond without having to close the distance.

I carry both. I *do not* want to pull my gun unless I *absolutely* need to. Plus, the knife is useful for all sorts of other things.
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Old 09-10-2003, 03:24 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If I were the one getting mugged, I would definetly want to be carrying a knife rather than a gun. True, a gun can do more damage, but at closer range and without any type of training, I feel that I would be much more able to utilize a knife in a defensive manner. It may take quite a bit of training to "properly" use a knife, but slashing an unsuspecting attacker would be quite a bit easier than pulling a gun, aiming it, and pulling the trigger and actually hitting the mark that you were trying to hit.
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Old 09-10-2003, 07:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It takes no training to present a gun, and, stistically, that is all you have to do to defend yourself in 95% of armed assaults.

And this in no way should be taken as me stating that you should carry with no training, quite the opposite, just making the point to counter the 'knife is easier to use untrained argument'. I don't think that you should carry any weapon unless you've been properly trained and have taken sufficient time to practice.
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