intecel

I just picked up a Glock 38, .45 and absolutely love this weapon, but I'm starting to go broke on buying ammo at the gun range for it. It uses .45 G.A.P....

If anyone happens to know a good online store to purchase this ammo cheap, please let me know.

ziadel

step 1 - sell Glock 38
step 2 - buck glock model 30
step 3 - shoot cheaper


besides, the .45gap will prolly fall off the face of the earth pretty soon, not a popular cartridge.

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intecel

I am pretty new to owning guns. I had never even heard of .45 gap before i purchased this weapon... I got it home, tried to load it up, the rounds didn't fit...

Very upsetting really.

ziadel

you ewre probably loading .45acp, mebbe some other .45 caliber cartridges, but yeah, the box will read ".45 G.A.P." thats what you need, honestly man, I'd nix it....

have you taken any pistol safety courses?

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Fob_Magi

.45GAP was a good idea but it just never caught on. Few people own .45GAP gun s so there are fewer rounds manufactured (and fewer manufacturers) resulting in a higher prices.

Buying ammo online is a pain in the ass... if you buy a ton of it you might save a few bucks... but I dont think its worth it.... Try Academy, Cabellas or any other big chain sporting goods store, they usually have best prices... shooting ranges are the absolute most expensive place to buy ammo in my experience ...

I agree with ziadel, try to unload that glock 38, used guns usually fetch pretty close to new price if you didn't get ripped off in the first place and have taken care of it.

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Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both.
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Such is the Rule of Honor.

CandleInTheDark

I am going to say take a firearms safety course of some sort.

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longbough

If you really like the gun don't sell it ...
For instance 10mm never caught on but I know many folks who still still shoot it. Granted, most of them are reloading their own ammo but some love it so much they buy ammo in bulk.

What are you paying now for ammo? I'll see what I can find. I don't shoot .45 GAP but I do buy my pistol ammo (.40 S&W, .45 ACP and 9mm) 1,000 rounds at a time. You get better deals that way.

BTW - If anyone out there needs 3v Lithium CR123 batteries for tactical lights the best place to buy them in bulk are www.botachtactical.com - 20 batteries for $20! Sometimes they even have a special 30 batteries for $25! These are good batteries, too.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ziadel

Um, but, the 10 is actually usefull

IMHO of course, but honeslty Longbough, do you even see them making .45GAP brass in 10 years, the thing withered incredibly quickly.

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cj2112

As much as i agree with the sentiment that you should sell this and buy either Glock 30 or a Glock 21, that really isn't what you asked. http://www.outdoormarksman.com/buyammo.php has American Eagle 230 grain FMJ starting @ $16.59/box if you buy 20+ boxes. Truthfully I think you'll end up paying less if you buy it at your local wal-mart/sportsmans warehouse/other big box retail store.

intecel

That's exactly what it was... I had bought the only .45 round I had ever seen... the .45ACP...

I bought my first gun last year, a 9mm... I'll be shooting the 9 more often than the 45, but I think I may hang onto it for a while, unless anyone knows a good way of selling it to where i get a good bit of my money back...

Walmart only sells the .45ACP, and the 4 stores in the area I asked all said that they will probably never sell the .45GAP... I can buy it at the gun range for $20 + tax per 50 rounds... A box of 100 rounds of ACP sells for around $22 at walmart, so I may end up saving quite a bit of money in the longrun if i do sell it...

ziadel

dude, you have a 9? use that for your informal shooting, it doesnt get any cheaper than that.

Also, if your financial situation allows for it, pack your .45GAP up and put it into storage, eventually it will start to increase in value


what originally attracted you to the .45gap?

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longbough

The nice thing about the GAP is that it's a shorter round than the .45 ACP and achieves even better ballistics. This is due to the modern powders used nowadays. A shorter .45 means a smaller grip and a higher capacity with less bulk. If you compare the Glock .45 ACP and the Glock .45 GAP pistols you'll notice the GAP has a much smaller grip. As a cartridge the GAP is superior in just about every way to the .45 ACP - except that it's not common (yet?).

I thought of purchasing a .45 GAP myself once. But I already have many .45 ACP pistols. Besides, if some big apocalyptic disaster hits this country the easiest ammo to find would be .22, 9mm, .45, .38 sp and 12ga.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ziadel

whoa, whoa, whoa, the .45GAP doesnt do anything better than the .45ACP, except be slightly smaller so as to be more accomodating to smaller hands.
Its not a miracle of modern propellants, its a +p round. Thats why no one has ever or will ever make a +p .45GAp, they're already +p (like the .40S&W)



If you don't believe me, go check the ammo makers for yourself.

.45 G.A.P. is NOT on par with the .45ACP, not when you start weighing in +p.45ACP loads especially.


p.s. Springfield AFAIK doesnt sell pistols chambered in .45 G.A.P. Just Glock.

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longbough

The .45 GAP's design is modern compared to the .45 ACP. The .45 ACP (introduced in 1905) is over 100 years old.

The .45 GAP isn't meant to compete with the .45 ACP - so the +p .45 ACP isn't the issue. I said it's superior in just about every way to the .45 ACP. (c'mon) Remember, you were the one who asked why someone would purchase a .45 GAP.

Look, the GAP was developed in response to the one problem .45 ACP has - and that's the bulk of the grip - especially the double stacked ones. The ballistics are slightly better than the .45 ACP.


*sigh*



"Springfield's new mini .45, called the Defender, is a recoil-operated 1911-type single-action semiautomatic pistol chambered for the compact but powerful .45 GAP cartridge. As such, the new pistol has been scaled down in size. What's really innovative about its design is that it is not just shorter in overall length or merely a tad slimmer in profile. Its internal firing mechanism has been shortened, and consequently its grip frame has been shortened front to back. Rob Leatham, world-class shooter and Springfield spokesman, says the changes amount to about a 1/8- inch shortening (front to back) of the grip frame and the slide."
Here's the full article.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun...fender_030306/

If you look at the Springfield website the XD is also available in .45 GAP.



Here's a blurb from xdpistols.com regarding the .45 GAP XD:
"Springfield XD's in 45GAP. The .45 GAP is based on the .45 ACP pistol cartridge, but is shorter--the same overall length as a 9 mm Luger or .40 S&W and uses a small-pistol primer like the 9mm Luger instead of a large-pistol primer like the .45 ACP. The .45 GAP operates at a higher pressure than the .45 ACP (the same as .45 ACP +P) to make up for the smaller chamber volume. The .45 GAP produces ballistics at least equal to the standard .45 ACP loadings but in a significantly shorter cartridge. It was first believed that the traditional .45 ACP loading of a 230-grain bullet at 830 ft/s would not be possible in the .45 GAP, but careful gunpowder selection on the part of ammunition manufacturers has realized that standard. "

Here's a review of the XD Tactical .45 GAP:
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/...ch_XD,,00.html
"In the wake of the success of the competition XD in .45 GAP, Springfield went into production of not only this gun, but also the .45 GAP in the XD LE Tactical model. The balance of the XD 45 LE Tactical is truly superb, making it a professional-grade pistol... With the popularity of the XD Pistol you can expect to see other ammunition makers get on the .45 GAP bandwagon soon. "

You can order the Springfield XD .45 GAP on the link below but you'll have to wait a while since they are backordered.
http://www.xdpistols.com/category/10...D_Pistols.aspx


Ziadel, you've got to break this habit you have about trashing guns and cartridges. Most guns aren't competing against each other. Mossberg owners don't get into barfights with Remington owners. Your stress level will go down and you'll live longer if you take my advice. Trust me - I'm a doctor.

BTW - They just released the HK 10 rd magazines for my .45 USP-C. I'm overjoyed! I'm glad I didn't sell my HK (actually I never sell any of my guns as a rule).

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ziadel

OK, first off my bad, SPringfield has only discontinued the XD in .45GAP

but it is not at all balistically superior.


Heres the numbers for .45G.A.P. 230 grain Hydra-shok
25yards - 863 FPS - 380 FTLBS


Same for .45 A.C.P. 230 grain Hydra-shok
25 yards - 872 FPS - 389 FTLBS


I could go on, but what makes this superior man?

and yes the .45 GAp is meant to compete with the .45ACP, it was originally billed as a .45 for shooters with small hands.


exactly, they said, hey wait a minute, theres something missing from the market here, so they made that great new thing, and let people decide for themselves if it was better, thats a competition, they are competing for the customers money.

I;m not really getting stressed about this man, but when someone asks and I have firsthand knowledge I pipe up. I know people who are going nuts looking for ammo.


and besides, I've bought four guns from remington, 3 of them have had problems, I';m sorry if I am vocal about their apparent (to me) lack of quality control. I know you love remington stuff man, but we;re not all doctors that can afford to wisk our firearms off to van-comp for a work-over

but anywho, yeah, I prolly am a little stressed out, more doctor problems (grrr).

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longbough

I never say it was.

Even if it was only "a .45 for small hands" it's appealing to a different market. If it was meant to compete with the .45 ACP then Glock would not make both a .45 ACP or a .45 GAP.

You just despise everything that's a Glock. C'mon. Admit it.

Yes. It is apparent to you.

Cheap shot.

I can't help it if you have a crappy doctor ... but that doesn't make us all bad.

Salud.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

cj2112

/edit neverrmind

Acetylene

.45 GAP is an answer to a question no one asked. .45 ACP can be made to fit in guns for shooters with small hands. The Glock 21 and Para Ordnance double stack created the myth that .45 ACP cannot be doublestacked for shooters with small hands.

Myth one is that the GAP doublestacks have the same capacity as most .45 ACP doublestacks. They go 10 for a reason and not 13. Apples to oranges comparison.

Myth two is that double stack .45 ACP can't fit the human hand. Try a 2011 some time.

Myth three is that .45 ACP can't do exactly what .45 GAP does... The new M&P .45 and CZ-97B come to mind. Hey what do you know, .45ACP ten round grip feels just like a .45 GAP ten round grip. The diameter is the same and the 1/8 of an just doesn't mean much.

Myth four is that the size of the grip is the issue. It's not, it's the shape (block/glock) and trigger reach.

As to the cost of ammo. Reload.... It's so cheap and saves so much money in so little time. I can shoot three times as much because I reload. I would not even bother buying ammo, just skip straight to reloading. Get the Lyman manual, Frankford Arsenal tumbler and dial calipers, Lee safety scale, Hornady LnL (also get a pistol powder measure insert and .45 shell plate), Lee 4 die set, and Hornady powder through expander die. Brass from starline (unfortunately you can't find .45 GAP brass free locally) and bullets from master blaster (make sure to order the 6,000 case). Hold off on buying guns and ammo until you can start reloading. The money you save will mean more guns and ammo in the long term. For the cost of one gun you can get it with good equipment that will last a lifetime.

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There's no justice. There's just us.

longbough

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Suave

HAHAHA. I love the two word response, longbough. To be fair though, while he's not addressing the direct issue, it is related to the usefulness of GAP, which should (theoretically) affect whether or not the calibre will continue in any sort of noteworthy fashion.

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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

longbough

Well it was never about ".45 GAP is better than .45 ACP."

The .45 GAP is an option for those who find the .45 ACP difficult because of the bulk - but that's not everybody.

The OP started off by saying "I absolutely love this weapon" so I would presume that they are one of those people. In this case there's no real point to saying "the .45 GAP is lousy blah blah blah ..."

Like I said before - it's a different market. I'm not trashing the .45 ACP because it's my favorite handgun round. I never even shot a .45 GAP. I'm just supporting the OP's preferences.

Just to correct a small detail in your response: Acetylene is not a "he." She's a woman.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Acetylene

Who said I was responding to the OP? Right that would be longbough, so he/she could avoid acknowledging anything said.

And the myth continues.

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longbough

Sorry. I didn't know you were just hijacking the thread.

My bad.

If, by quoting me, you claim it's a complete fallacy that a smaller grip can be made with a .45 GAP then I'd like to know why Springfield would even make a 1911 configuration .45 GAP - Their argument was that it has a smaller grip than a typical 1911. Evidently their .45 GAP Defender does have a smaller grip than a 1911 in .45 ACP.

Are you saying the Springfield engineers were duped by a myth into producing a completely useless item?

Personally, I have no problem with a full sized 1911 (I've got 4 of them) - but I do know some people who find them blocky and uncomfortable - even for a single stack because of the anterior-to-posterior dimension of the grip. Why is it so hard to believe that this small change in dimension might make a difference to somebody?

I don't shoot .45 GAP but I will defend to the death its right to exist. OK - forget about the "death" part.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Acetylene

.45 GAP was created to offer a .45 caliber option in 9/40 sized frames. Specifically Glock 9/40 sized frames because Gaston's other .45 caliber offering shared it's frame with the 10MM cartridge and had the ergonomics of a brick. Gaston didn't want to do the right thing and correct the wasteful design of the Glock magazine and frame to produce a gun identical to the 9/40 frame with a ten round capacity.

Springfield Armory thought they could cash in on the new concept. They build guns to sell and they saw an opportunity to sell. I wonder what other caliber fits the .45 GAP EMP frame and the .45 GAP XD frame.

The 1/8th of an inch OAL is nothing from an ergonomics perspective. It's everything from a manufacturing and engineering perspective.

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longbough

Well ... you've just posited the closest thing to a cogent argument for your initial thesis yet. I hadn't given the matter much thought until now - I had been merely playing the devil's advocate. But you make undeniably salient points. Thanks for the perspective. I stand enlightened.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

intecel

I have decided I am going to trade it in at the next gun show that comes to town in a couple weeks.

ziadel

that is a great idea

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Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
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longbough

while you're at it you might also consider dumping that Mossberg, if you've got one, for a Remington

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ziadel

longbough, you're really starting to irk me with this remington nonsense.


if you dont own a remington that wasnt worked over by vang comp, how can you honestly recommend them?

__________________
Ron Paul '08
Vote for Freedom
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longbough

That's enough out of you, Klingon dog! Yeah, that's right - I called you a Klingon! Your secret is out ... does this look familiar?

(Honestly, do you think you're the only one capable of cheap shots? )

Touché, pal.

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Plan9

Sell the Model 38 and get the new "slimline" Glock in .45 ACP, a Springfield XD, or a S&W M&P. I'd recommend H&K but they are too pricey (Which is why I'm wearing one, right?).

Yeah, .45 GAP is a fad cartridge, like .357 Sig and .356 TSW and .470 Nitro Express and whatever those blasters on Star Wars shoot. Good idea, but not picked up on by shooters.

How can you tell .45 GAP is a fad cartridge? Because Americans are silly and refuse to change. .45 ACP will be with us until we have blaster guns.

And then people will want .45 caliber blaster guns.

...

10mm is amazing. You can pop a deer with one shot and a bad guy with the other. The Glock model 20 has always been one of my favorite guns, despite the fact that it had durability issues and that I could never justify buying one.

I'm a wheelgun guy, myself. Hard to beat a good revolver.

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Whatever you can carry.

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intecel

A followup: I finally got rid of that Glock 38 today. I took a loss of $150 on it, and ended up picking up a Sig .40. Unfortunately, the shooting ranges around here are all closed since the dealers are all at the show, so I have to wait until at least monday to fire off some rounds.

Plan9

Sig .40? P226?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

intecel

I actually went with the SP2022 to save a bit of money. I'm about as broke as they get nowadays, but very happy nonetheless with this purchase.

Plan9

That there is a fine sidearm. Get yourself a Fobus holster and make sure you have at least three mags. Nice.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

JStrider

the prices at that online store are way better then what I'm paying at academy. Even buying just a single box is like $5 cheaper... if I buy 20+ its even cheaper...

this if for .45 acp ammo.

I've never shot the .45 gap... so I dont really have an opinion on it.

__________________
-=JStrider=-

~Clatto Verata Nicto

MSD

This reminds me, everyone who takes pictures of their guns should look at this thread http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=101896

The big things you need to do to get awesome pictures of guns are:

1: rule of thirds
2: find a cool background that contrasts the gun well (the pic above is black/textured black on textured black and the grips are practically the same as the foam)
3: extremely low depth of field, low exposure, handheld light (move it around to get all angles, but don't get in the way of the camera,) and a really long exposure time (so you can move the light around)
4: start by white balancing the camera and correct the balance after you take the picture.

Plan9

Yeah, but I take pictures of the guns and close-ups of serial numbers for insurance purposes, really. I have a crap-tastic digital camera.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."