SAM821

I am uncut...

I think the only problem i had with being uncut was the social acceptance. I am of Latin decent, and I lived in a predominantly Jewish and "hick" community of South Florida between Ft. Lauderdale and Miami, as a teenager... Once the kids my age found out i was uncircumcized, i was humiliated for being "abnormal". This encounter from the only kids i knew brought me to the point of considering a circumcision, to gain social acceptance, but it wasnt until having my first sexual encounters in high school that i gradually became comfortable with being uncut. Eventually I realized that I should be happy with my penis, and fortunate for what i have.

After my freshmen year in college, and exploiting my penis around campus to a few girl-friends, and getting praised for its size and looks, I COMPLETELY got over all of my complections about being uncut and my confidence has improved my sex life and desire 10 fold.

A few years have past since then and now, i can say that i wouldnt want my penis any other way. I am happy with being uncut, and i would DEFINITLY want my son (whenever i have one) to keep his foreskin as well.

I think with time, America will realize that circumcisions are outdated, and provide more of a health risk to recieve them, than getting an infection later on in life. I just think that unless you are jewish and get it done as part of a religous ritual or "bris" then the procedure should not be done. I think its unnessesary for a new born baby to go through that much pain and suffering. But thats just my opinion.

Uncut and happy...

dtheriault

dear tisonlyi:

so you basically accused me of being stupid, afraid to touch my son's penis to clean it and a mutilator.

cool... real nice.

like i said i read a lot:

things like: "The American Academy of Pediatrics concluded in 1989 that there may be "medical benefits and advantages" to circumcision. Urinary tract infection during the first year of life of uncircumcised boys is ten times that of their circumcised counterparts. Incidence of penile cancer is much lower in circumcised men (Science News, March 11, 1989, page 150). After study of incidence of AIDS in Africa, researcher Jean L. Marx concluded that uncircumcised men may be five to eight times more likely to get AIDS during heterosexual intercourse than men who have been circumcised (Science, August 4, 1989, pages 470-471).

Canadian Pediatric Society, March 16, 1996
"The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns."

AAP Statement, March 1, 1999.
"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child."

I could go on and on the basic summary is this:

there are good and bad things about both and it's up to a parent to decide after research and discussion. like i said it wasn't an easy decision. i almost backed out at the last minute.

i know you euros are pretty smart, but not all of us heathen americans are the same.

my wife breast fed for almost 2 years not because it's easier, but because it more healthy.

we didn't leave him alone in his crib to "cry it out." we co-slept with him for a year because it's better for him.

we are vegetarian and so is he. he's at the 98th percentile for healthy growth and he's never been sick enough to go to the doctors (knock on wood)

we don't have cable tv, a dvd player, and he has more books than toys. we love our son and think we made the right decision.

i also gladly support anyone who thinks that they need to leave the foreskin intact, because that's fine with me.

i don't think that all opinions are valid. (hitler was wrong) i just think that this one is a little more gray than "ripping my son's spinal column out."

thanks for that image.

dt

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Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

tisonlyi

I stopped reading at penile cancer.

Do you know the phrase "rare as hens teeth"?

Any figures for that one?

Here are the first one's google threw at me.

http://www.circumstitions.com/Cancer.html

Keep in mind that most penile cancers are secondaries due to spreading down through the urethra, either from the bladder or the prostate. Both cancers of older age (generally).

You quote that source twice.

I think you should look real hard at both of those pieces of 'research'.

Let me tell you, sir, I suffer from a very rare tumour in younger people. Choriodal melanoma. A tuma of the eye. hence the one eye gag in my sig.

Cancer is not a subject to bandied about as a political toy for idiotic social manipulators.

I'm moderately drunk, but the utter GARBAGE you just spouted, well, even my fuddled mind knows i don't have to take it point by point.

1 in a billion to 1 in 100 million, a 10 times greater risk.

Oh, i did go back and read the rest.

You think i'm a euro-supremacist?

On the issue of circumcision, you're damn right i am.

As for the rest of your moral indignation, i plonk that in the same trollish hole as motkadishu, or whatever's arguements on female circumcision.

I believe eric cartman said it best with:

"it's all a bunch of tree hugging hippy crap"

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

giblfiz

Wow, I'm apparently the only Jew on TFP.
As per my faith I am "cut" and as per my faith my son shall be "cut" as I am. Its a covenant with god thing, and hardly the weirdest most horrible thing that has been done in the name of religion.

It does offer Superior resistance to infection, which I will admit is not the worlds biggest advantage in our disinfectant ridden, shower every day- sometimes twice society. It was a *huge* advantage in the desert-wandering nomad, all the water I see I drink, if I wash at all its done by rubbing myself clean with sand, early Mediterranean lifestyle.

If it makes sex less pleasurable then I got to wonder how because It seems pretty fun the way it is to me.

in response to the firebrand of this discussion: tisonlyi perhaps its a bit barbaric, but I have never had a big problem with barbarism. Its not a horrible repressive thing, It does not significantly impair ones ability to function in any way. It is not a horrible human rights abuse. Think of it sort of like if tattooed a big heart on your baby's ass, its weird, but its not particularly abusive.
Mutilation is in the eye of the beholder, its no more or less mutilation than earrings, breast implants or a nose job.
Oh and the reason we don't cut off hands to prevent hand infections is twofold: 1) It significantly impairs the ability to function and 2) The hand is not particularly infection prone. You will notice that that we rip out both the appendix and the tonsils with hardly blink of the eye. Evolution isn't perfect, the body is still very much a work in progress (If you don't believe me take a look at your knees) so there is no reason to assume we can't tweak it a bit.

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meembo

no
never

padam

Yes to both. All the girls I've been with prefer a circumcised penis. they just feel it's a lot cleaner.

motdakasha

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blackdas

wow, thats pretty ignorant on their part

Hrothgar

The last time I checked circumcision didn't mean castration.

Yes and Yes if i ever have a boy.

When I turned 18 I had myself circumsized. It was pretty neat. I was on the table and I watched the surgeon cut my penis and leave me enough room for growth. It was the best thing I did for my sex life and for my self esteem. I can whip out my helmet head and go to town and not be embarrased like before when my dick looked like a sausage with a turtleneck.

I won't have my son know the "joy" of smegma(if i ever even have kids).

dtheriault

tisonlyi:

you know what i thought about what you said and you're totally right.

i completely suck. i'm currently going to reassess most of my life right now. thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

thanks! I'm so glad i joined TFP if for no other reason than the change you've made in my life.

you rule.

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"Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer

Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

toasty

I am circumcised, yet I chose to not circumsize my son (now one year old). To me it was a matter of logic. There is absolutely no reason to whack his lil' pee-pee. It started as a hygenic ritual (back when people didn't bathe) that turned into religious nonsense. It only looks "better" because that's what we're used to. In a culture where no-one is whacked, I bet a clipped dong looks totally gross.

Anyway, these days more and more parents are opting to not circumsize their sons. Good for them.. If you've ever seen the procedure it's absolutely horrible. They have to strap the kids down to a table so they don't squirm, and the screaming is horrible. I don't see how you could do this to a child you loved, especially when there is no good reason to do it in the first place.

Zeld2.0

i think this read is really getting out there sometimes seriously no need to be inulting or whatever - im pretty sure though most people already know who is oging to say what

anyways like SAM821 i always felt 'unaccepted' younger and wanted to be cut - but now as i get older i really prefer to keep it as it is

if you wash there should relaly be no reason to have an infection - and its so easy to do so i really see no reason why its going to get one 'easily'

and the women that say its dirty - well thats being ignorant on their part

now my self esteem is much better, before it went low to the point where i wanted to be cut, but now, i feel good about it and if women think its dirty because im uncut, then they need to get a clue

tisonlyi

dtheriault:

Utterly defeated on points of fact, the knave resorts to low brow sarcasm.

You made a bad choice. You found evidence to back your own prejudice and ignored the overwhelming body of accepted FACT.

Your right, but you shouldn't fool yourself as to why you did it. It wasn't for health reasons.

75 years ago, i'm sure a reasonably intelligent man could find 'facts' to back up home correction.

150 years ago, there were many 'facts' flying around to justify the inferiority of the negro.

Times change.

Barbarity wilts in the face of reason.

Don't get angry at me for YOUR POOR DECISION.

giblfiz:

A Jewish person with a tolerance for barbarism, isn't there a word for that in today's world?

Zionist? (yes, my tongue is firmly in my cheek)

Even for you chaps, if you go back to your history, it was more about identification and unity than cleanliness. The original circumcision was far, FAR less intrsuive, only taking a small section of the skin, which could easily be streched.

That stretching took place in areas under greek control where athletes would perform in the nude, with Jews being ridiculed for their lack of a full foreskin. Some athletes underwent procedures like hanging weights and stuffing the inside, etc to restore them to nature and remove the insults and sniping.

Obviously, your ancestors didn't like that at all, decreeing that from then on, all Jewish boys would have a full circumcision.

Which is utterly brutal, barbaric, and in your culture done without any kind of anaesthetic, unless i'm mistaken?

As for the tonsil and appendix points... irrelevent. diseased, dangerous, medically must be removed (currently - that will change at some point in the future, unless we wipe ourselves out.)

My hand point was valid, as there is NO VALID, RATIONAL, REASON TO REMOVE A HAND OR A FORESKIN AT BIRTH. (defects and complications aside)

Religious reasoning, well, I don't agree. personally. The child should be left to make that decision at a later date, like, when he's in command of the full facts and at an age when he could possibly do something like, oh i don't know... MAKE A REASONED CHOICE.

Who knows, the little lad might just turn out to be an atheist who enjoys the aesthetics and pleasures of an intact penis.

If he's lucky, which, being born to you, he wasn't.

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

daoist

i find it somewhat telling how many of the "1.Yes 2.Yes" people can be so cavalier about genital mutilation. Most of the "No" people (and only a few of the yessers) explain their beliefs. That indicates that they've thought through their positions. I'm not saying that people who choose yes didn't think it through, just saying there isn't much evidence of forethought.

and a note about FGM:

How voluntary is it when a lot of the girls who are mutilated don't want to be?

Sure, society may mistakenly think that male circumcision is healthy, but it ultimately should be a personal choice. Somehow I think people would be a little concerned if a boy's father, uncles, and cousins dragged him out of his home by force and circumcised him THEMSELVES against his will.

That happens sadly far too often to young women in africa, and since the female genital MUTILATION (it's called mutilation for a reason, people) is performed by a non-professional (often an untrained family member) more than a few poor girls bleed to death.

Letting people make their own decisions is generally a good idea. It doesn't bother me which IPU someone chooses to worship every sunday, but when it comes to assault on other people, that's where we should step in and help.

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EdgeCrusherCoW

1. No, and Im glad my parents never did it. Its just about TOO easy to clean, and you can have plenty of fun with the foreskin.

2. No, I never will have my son cut, when I have one.

tisonlyi

Hrothgar:

You got yourself circumcised at an appropriate age. go you.

even if you did do it to 'fit in'.

In a society of the mutilated i'm not sure that as a teenager I'd have been able to stick it out.

Weak pun intended.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

giblfiz

I hope you see the irony of these two comments together. I am always doubtful of of any fact that is spelled in all caps. Rather than screaming perhaps you should sight your support.

I'm pretty sure that I was intended to ignore that, so I will

Well I can speak rather authoritatively on the issue of circumcision originally being a) far less intrusive and b) for Identification. These items are both fully false, it was clearly a full circumcision (Ugg, Ill dig through my Hebrew studies book for a ref. if you really care) And it was clearly not for ID and Unity... for one thing almost everyone in the region did it at the time, it was a health necessity. (A Journey through the Hebrew Scriptures by Frank S. Frick) As I pointed out in my post, if you don't have water to wash with circumcision becomes a major boon to survival. This is something I have studied formally and which I am rather certain of.

I will admit that I don't know much about the Israelite interaction with the greeks in greek controlled areas, its something I have never studied. I am quite frankly surprised to hear that Jews were allowed to compete at all.

No, we use the worlds oldest anesthetic, wine. Works rather well. It also appears from reading this discussion that our professional moyals seem to be much better at performing circumcisions than the average doctor.

I find it surprising that you don't at least see how a foreskin bears more resemblance to a tonsil than to a hand. I assume that your simply being stubborn for rhetorical purposes.

I find the idea that parents should be forced to raise their children as the culture sees fit rather than as the parent sees fit often on TFP. I imagine that you will be able to garner quite a bit of support for this sentiment. Suffice to say that my people have fought (or more often fled) and died for the right to raise our children as we see fit. The majority does not necessarily know how to raise children well, and the tyranny of the majority can be just as oppressive as the inquisition ever was.

I don't take kindly to being insulted. Few here do. If you must insult me please make it either comical or subtle. You will note that I did not call you a "mean face" or any other expletive, nor have I criticized you directly.

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PoteMatic

Hmm unless you later had your circumcision after loosing your virginity how could you say how sensitive it would or wouldnt be?

goof7ball

I'm cut, but my wife and I are struggling with the decision to cut any sons that we might have. To us, the decision will probably be based on what we think the locker room will look like when our boy is a teenager- I don't think we care one way or the other as long as he looks like the rest of the boys. I remember when I was in junior high there was one kid in my gym class that was uncut and the teasing he indured was brutal.

As for the arguments about circumcision being barbaric, I'm not so sure. My penis works just fine, and considering what I went through (birth) the day before my skin was cut, I'd say it was probably the least of my worries.

AlCap0wn

1) No.
2) Doesn't apply.

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jbrooks544

No

There is no proven medical advantage/reason for having it done.

dannoxxxx

Im with Halx all the way!...
and Im also uncut.

I also love my penis and wouldnt want it any other way.

Go foreskin, indeed!

DrateX

I was not circumsized untill I was about 23 yrs old.... it was starting to tear during sex so I had to have it cut off

I must say that sex after it was cut was very crappy cause it was soooo sensitive .. lol

But will I cut my babies dick when he is a child? yup...

I would hate to have him go through what I did at my age and getting it chopped... you have no idea of the pain.

Halx

I was illustrating the importance of a penis. I never said circumcisions rendered it worthless.

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motdakasha

I think the comparison of tonsillectomy and circumcision is completely relevant. The hand comparison is pretty non sequitur--hardly an equal comparison. In the past tonsillectomy, was viewed as necessary for many children, becoming something of a fad in the '50s. Further research has shown that tonsillectomy is not necessary the majority of the time, yet it is still a pretty common practice even today. It's just as controversial as circumcision. In my searches, I came upon a few sites that even compared or categorized tonsillectomy with circumcision. What I post below is just what I've found. It just sounded to me like tisonlyi believes all tonsils should be removed. In which case, I think that's pretty ironic considering his whole spiel about barbarism.


http://www.soberforever.net/program_research1.cfm
Both tonsillectomy and circumcision are categorized as ritual surgeries that are controversial.

A little bit of history on tonsillectomy.

http://www.emedicine.com/ent/byname/tonsillectomy.htm
In 1987, it was still a pretty common surgery.

http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/conte...lcode=intjepid
I would have liked to read the entire article, but I could only find the abstract.

http://www.whale.to/m/nightingale.html
There were some other sites that I forgot to bookmark that also attributed an increase in polio to tonsillectomies.

http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~ofattal/tonsilsarticle.htm
One of the better explanations for the decline in popularity of tonsillectomy.

http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache...n&ie=UTF-8</a>
This article uses tonsillectomy as an example in the introduction. The intro gives you an idea of how many children were elected for tonsillectomy in the past.

http://www.mothernature.com/Library/...ooks/32/95.cfm
This is a pretty good article that explains tonsillectomy. These days, doctors weigh the benefits from disadvantages much more than they used to.

http://www.informedparent.com/articl...icle=4.tonsils
Another good article on tonsillectomy as explained to a parent with a child who may potentially need it.

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Mr Scorcex

I'm not circumcised, and wouldn't have my son circumcised, on the grounds that he could do it later if he wanted to.
tisonlyi, it seems to me that dtheriault did indeed make an informed decision and have the procedure performed for the right reasons, as well as other informed decisions. Like not having cable television and providing his child with an abundance of books (kill your television!). I think you are maybe being a little harsh on the guy. Like I said, I'm not cut, and I don't hold anything against him for having his child circumcised.

motdakasha

"a little harsh" is an understatement.

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Soca

I'm uncut and if I have a son I will leave him intact.
The foreskin isn't just a flap of skin, it does serve a purpose. It protects the glands and keeps them moist. And it is pleasurable to have it touched.

It's really easy to clean an uncircumcised penis to avoid infection and odor. Hop into the shower, pull the skin back and wash it with warm water. Sure, it smells if you don't clean it for a few days, but most of your body will start to stink if you don't take the time to wash yourself.

As far as looking like everyone else, your kids are going to be teased while growing up, period. Removing their foreskin so they look like the other boys in the locker-room (or their father for that matter) isn't going to make life any easier. If they want to look circumcised they can pull the skin back. It takes about 2 seconds and it isn't painful or permanent.

When I was younger I did wish I was circumcised. I was afraid girls would be put off when they saw my penis for the first time. In reality most girls don't even mention the fact that I'm uncut and the ones that have were curious (leading to a fun learning experience), not grossed out.

I'd bet the majority of the men that were circumcised at birth would have left themselves intact had they grown up with a foreskin. It's easy to say you don't miss something you've never really had.

MadMax

No, I definitely would not circumsize my son, that choise I would leave to him.

Unfortunatley I am circumsized and have regretted that I was circumcised at birth and therfore had no say on it.

Mehoni

1. No
2. Does not apply.

Where I live, you don't cut anything off. Yes, that's right, I'd say 99% of the men in this country has foreskin.

I wouldn't cut anything of a female child and I won't do it on a male child.

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soxsfans

3 boys, 3 cuts.

SkanK0r

No and no. I think it's funny that we look at other cultures with such horror when they stretch their necks or bind their feet when we go around hacking off chucks 'o' cock.

I'm not particularly political about it as many people seem to be, but I heard someone make the argument that they like their circumcision because it helps someone else (in this case, a nurse) keep his or her sanity when they had to clean off his dork. TO me, that is just about the stupidest logic I've ever heard in my entire life. You cut off a chuck of your dick because you're worried about someone having to clean it later if you ever become so debilitated that you can't clean it yourself? I don't really care if people are circumsized, I don't think it's abuse, etc. etc. etc. But I think that saying you like it because it helps some nurse keep her lunch down in 2054 is absolutely hilarious.

Does anyone know what the percentages are of men that are against men who aren't? I figured us uncuts would be in the minority, but was curious to know just how "odd" I am.

motdakasha

Internationally, uncut is majority. United States is debatable. Many people feel circumcision is still the standard, but due to recent trends, it may no longer be this way. It'll take time, but eventually uncut will be acknowledged as a standard here.

People still think lactose intolerance came after lactose tolerancy, but it's the other way around. If you are lactose tolerant as an adult, you're part of the mutated/evolved gene pool that has learned to continue accepting milk as part of the diet after breastfeeding/puberty. In most people, after they've stopped breastfeeding, our bodies reject milk as a food item.

So it'll be a while I'm sure.

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braindamage351

I don't think anyone should get circumsized until they can use pain killers and anasthetics.

Bobaphat

1) No. If my son so chooses to be circumcised when he comes of age, then that is his decision. I will not make it for him when he is unable to speak for himself. You can always take the foreskin away but you can never grow it back.

2) I am circumcised and bitter about it. I definately would not have done it if it were my choice.

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Arsenic7

No and No

For those of you having trouble relating to the comparison of the foreskin to necessary bodily organs and limbs...think of something slightly more useless.

You don't need your earlobs...they just get in the way of things. They can get dirty and infected or become cancerous. Chopping them off would eliminate coliflower ear in wrestlers and boxers.

Why don't we do it?

Because it's silly.

Circumsicion is silly and, frankly, people who do things just because others do them are also silly.

Besides....it costs extra.

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Hanabal

the thing about the health benefits, is that there are none.

And as far as what ive read, there never were any. Yes there might have been a day when dirt etc got caught under the foreskin, but not anymore todays society. and evolution being evolution, there was a reason for it. you have a foreskin for many reason. one is to ensure a suplly of some fluid, i forget the name, smegma or something,

anyway. it was once believed that this fluid was dirty, as it smelled bad if not washed away occasionally. thats one reason people believe cuting started. anyway the fluid is actually antibacterial and keeps the penis safe from many diseases. without the foreskin the fluid drys away and cant come back therefore exposing the penis to infection it would have otherwise been protected from.

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The Phenomenon

1. HELL NO
2. I dont want to have anything cut off

Cutting pieces off of your body is just yuck. Why not just chop of some of your fingers? No one is cutting my or my son's fiddly bits.

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xepherys

Yes
Yes, and already have.


The reasons are: Cleanliness (not a huge issue, but it does make it easier), appearance (like mentioned, in the US it seems much more common) and personal choice.

As for the root reasons behind it, it had to do with sanitation a long time ago (when people were not able to bathe regularly) and became religious practice in some sects.

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yotta

If I had a male child, I would not have his penis cut. I'd want him to have the choice I didn't.
I'm cut, and wish I weren't.

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