Movie: Michael Moore Hates America

[aktornado]

Has anyone seen this movie? I heard of it awhile ago and kind of dismissed it because I figured it would just be a low budget, poorly done attack on Moore.

Turns out it got two thumbs up from Ebert & Roper! (Both are quite liberal and liked Fahrenheit 9/11)

From what I've gatherd is that it's not really just an attack movie on Moore, but just shows how hipocritical he is, and how he distorts the truth. (I don't think that comes as much of a shocker to anyone, but it's still nice to see it being said in the same format as how he spreads his propoganda) I believe it was released in Minneapolis, but that's about it.

I can't stand Moore, and I hate everything he does, however I do realize that he can make a good movie... And F9/11 is actually fairly entertaining, just as long as you see it for what it is.

[Mephisto2]

Did you watch Roger and Me?

What's wrong with standing up for what you believe? You can rest assured he does not feel the same about you (he probably [i]can[/b] stand you), and most assuredly doesn't hate everything you do.

If anyone is being reactionary, radical and unreasonable, it is you.

Oh, and for the record, I haven't seen 9/11 or BFC. I liked Roger and Me though. And the Awful Truth was a good show.


Mr Mephisto

[djtestudo]

I didn't see Fahrenheit 9/11, but I did see Bowling for Columbine, so I will say this. Michael Moore is a good filmmaker. Parts of BFC I did enjoy. However, when he goes into his attempts to be political it just becomes lies, and destroys the movie.

At least Tim Robbins keeps his politics out of his acting. If Moore did the same he'd probably be the best producer/director in Hollywood.

[cthulu23]

Originally Posted by djtestudo

I didn't see Fahrenheit 9/11, but I did see Bowling for Columbine, so I will say this. Michael Moore is a good filmmaker. Parts of BFC I did enjoy. However, when he goes into his attempts to be political it just becomes lies, and destroys the movie.

At least Tim Robbins keeps his politics out of his acting. If Moore did the same he'd probably be the best producer/director in Hollywood.

Have you ever seen "Bob Roberts?" That's one of my favorite Tim robbins movies but it is most definitely political.

Moore is a political filmmaker....the fact that some think there is something wrong with that speaks more of their tolerance for the opposition than his competence as a director.

[Kalibah]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Did you watch Roger and Me?

What's wrong with standing up for what you believe? You can rest assured he does not feel the same about you (he probably [i]can[/b] stand you), and most assuredly doesn't hate everything you do.

If anyone is being reactionary, radical and unreasonable, it is you.

Oh, and for the record, I haven't seen 9/11 or BFC. I liked Roger and Me though. And the Awful Truth was a good show.


Mr Mephisto

Watch Farenheight 9/11

then watch Farenhype 9/11


I try ot be fair - so i watched both

The man hates America.

" there is no terrorist threat" is laughable too btw.

And BFC was total BS - He walks outta hte bank with a gun ( the bank gave out hunting rifles if you open an account) and yes he LITERALLY walked outta the bank with the gun - the implication they literally give you a gun- when in fact you got a coupon for a gunshop- where they made you do the wait, background check etc.


That was just 1 of the many fallacies in his movie

[cthulu23]

"The man hates America"

Yes, everyone of a different political opinion must hate America. That is the only reasonable conclusion.

Your opinions vary from mine. Why do you hate America so much?

[Jeff]

He is a GREAT filmmaker. Give him that at least. Sure it's mostly bullshit, that doesn't mean you have to believe it.

I don't like the man much myself, but I do enjoy his movies.

[Halx]

'hate america' .. what complete nonsense that is. The man has an opinion. He has an opinion about the current administration. The current administration isn't "America" - so get over it. He does not hate America.

[irateplatypus]

well... to be sure, having an opinion doesn't necessarily speak to whether or not someone hates or loves "America."

to determine that, you've first got to define what "America" is or what she stands for.

if an opinion promotes an ideology that is destructive to that definition... then it can be said that a person who holds said opinion does hate America.

pre-emptively, let me argue that simply dissenting (in the grand American tradition) does not mean that you love America. it simply means that the dissenter is endured because others love her enough to retain the ideals of the first amendment.

[Manx]

Originally Posted by Kalibah

And BFC was total BS - He walks outta hte bank with a gun ( the bank gave out hunting rifles if you open an account) and yes he LITERALLY walked outta the bank with the gun - the implication they literally give you a gun- when in fact you got a coupon for a gunshop- where they made you do the wait, background check etc.


That was just 1 of the many fallacies in his movie

This critique of Moore has always fascinated me. Assuredly, he was not conveying entirely accurate information - but at the same token, he did walk out of the bank with the gun. The bank did give him a gun and let him walk out with it.

That much is irrefutable.

Also, I still get the impression that many people think Bowling For Columbine was actually an anti-gun documentary. Strange.

[Halx]

Ok, then let it be known.. America, the country I care enough about to criticize and plead for a better government for... well, I hate it.

[bollocks]

Michael Moore loves America. He’s spent much of his adult life trying to make your country better. You might disagree with his methods or beliefs, but I do not think his motives can reasonably be impugned. To attack him this way is simply childish.

Similarly, Moore loves the troops. Farenheight 9/11 shows us the system that abuses them. He shows us the horror they’ve been forced into. He gives them a voice, and shows us how they feel. And he shows us that after all this, they try their best to serve their country. And finally, he shows us a woman who used to think that way — that opposition to the war was in opposition to the troops — until her own son died in Iraq. No one could watch this film and still think Moore hates the troops.

[sob]

Originally Posted by cthulu23

"The man hates America"

Yes, everyone of a different political opinion must hate America. That is the only reasonable conclusion.

Your opinions vary from mine. Why do you hate America so much?

America is a "nation of idiots."

"Capitalism is a sin" and "an evil system."

Doesn't sound like he's an American Legion president to me.

[ShaniFaye]

I've watched 2 MM doc's Roger and Me and BFC, its been a LONG time since I saw Roger and Me but I remember enjoying it when I saw it....I watched BFC and found myself wondering how many houses in Canada where he just walked in had to be edited out because it didnt go the right way....I also found what he did with the two kids from Columbine and the KMart excursion a little exploitive

[cthulu23]

Originally Posted by sob

America is a "nation of idiots."

"Capitalism is a sin" and "an evil system."

Doesn't sound like he's an American Legion president to me.

I didn't realize that you had to be an American Legion PResident to "love" America. I guess none of us qualify. Oh well....

By the way, why do you hate America so much?

[Tophat665]

At the moment, I have to wonder what is so wrong with hating America. I'm certainly not thrilled with it. That it happens to be better than anywhere else I could go says more about sad state of the rest of the world than it does about here. We're slowly creeping towards becoming Iran.

[Wheat King]

I loved the press Canada got from BFC. I thought it was hilarious.

[Seaver]

Similarly, Moore loves the troops. Farenheight 9/11 shows us the system that abuses them. He shows us the horror they’ve been forced into. He gives them a voice, and shows us how they feel. And he shows us that after all this, they try their best to serve their country. And finally, he shows us a woman who used to think that way — that opposition to the war was in opposition to the troops — until her own son died in Iraq. No one could watch this film and still think Moore hates the troops.

Ok lets take this one at a time.

One... he doesnt give the troops a voice. He finds one shitbag (who was dishonorably discharged) and puts him on as the voice of the Marines. That's like going through the prison system for the feelings of the middle class.

Two... this bastard went to dozens of families who were greiving for their lost son and finally found ONE who agreed to be on camera. It's not fair to the families of the serviceman to be a vulture on them at their weakest time.

Three... if you DO want the opinion of a serviceman just ask one. A poll by ABC found that 71% who are IN Iraq supported it, amazingly 74% of reservists.

Moore is a lying bastard, and yall should realize radical morons like him drag the democratic party down.

[smooth]

I'm sure they would rather think to themselves that they have a liklihood of dying for no good fucking reason than to convince themselves it's a good cause.


you're a soldier, right?

and you've been in war?


did you question yourself, or did you learn to get all negative thoughts out of your head before they caused you to slip and get your crew dead?

[Wheat King]

Weren't all you Democrats sucking MM's dick just a few short months ago, at the release of F9/11, and up until Monday night??? What happened?

[smooth]

Originally Posted by Wheat King

Weren't all you Democrats sucking MM's dick just a few short months ago, at the release of F9/11, and up until Monday night??? What happened?

I'm not a democrat, but weren't you sucking my dick last night?

what happened?

[tecoyah]

we are quickly approaching a steep cliff here.....back on topic please

[Wheat King]

Duly noted.

Smooth, I love your avatar.

ps> You passed out.

[gyroscope]

i saw farnheit 9/11 and i didn't like it.it is too much one sided...moore says that bush is the evil one and the democrats are the good ones.the mmovie is nothing better than propaganda.michale moore is overrated,and he never talks about how much money he gains with his films and books...he has to be a millionaire.

[roachboy]

i am amazed that this keeps coming up....

otherwise, i echo what irate and hal said on this matter.

[aktornado]

Originally Posted by Mr Mephisto

Did you watch Roger and Me?

What's wrong with standing up for what you believe? You can rest assured he does not feel the same about you (he probably can stand you), and most assuredly doesn't hate everything you do.

If anyone is being reactionary, radical and unreasonable, it is you.

Oh, and for the record, I haven't seen 9/11 or BFC. I liked Roger and Me though. And the Awful Truth was a good show.


Mr Mephisto

There is nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe. But in that same breath, there's nothing wrong with saying you don't like what others believe. I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to say those things, I'm just saying I don't like them. Big difference there.

And don't take me too literally when I say "I hate everything he does" I don't, for example, hate him breathing. Or driving a car. I just hate his movies because they're manipulative and deceiptful. I also don't hate the fact that he can actually be quite funny sometimes. What I do hate is the way he presents his point of view. Perhaps we see him differently because of our exposure to him. I have seen both Bowling for Columbine and F9/11, however I haven't seen Roger & Me.

[aktornado]

Also, for those of you who are defending Moore, saying that "He loves America, he just hates what America has become," or something to that ilk, that's a ridiculous argument. America is what it is, folks. If you hate what it has become, then you currently hate America.

I mean you can make that argument about anything then. "I don't hate Osama Bin Laden, I love that guy! I just hate the fact that he became a terrorist instead of a pacifist." Are you going to defend that logic too?

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by aktornado

Also, for those of you who are defending Moore, saying that "He loves America, he just hates what America has become," or something to that ilk, that's a ridiculous argument. America is what it is, folks. If you hate what it has become, then you currently hate America.

I mean you can make that argument about anything then. "I don't hate Osama Bin Laden, I just hate the fact that he became a terrorist instead of a pacifist."

The claim that mm hates america is stupid. It requires no rebuttal other than, "You have no way of knowing that because you can't read minds". Unless you are mm secretly posing as someone else to ignite discussion about yourself, which i could see mm doing, you have no way of knowing whether he hates america or not. We could just as well be arguing about the number of angels that can comfortably sit in a champagne jacuzzi the size of a thimble.

[smooth]

Originally Posted by aktornado

Also, for those of you who are defending Moore, saying that "He loves America, he just hates what America has become," or something to that ilk, that's a ridiculous argument. America is what it is, folks. If you hate what it has become, then you currently hate America.

I mean you can make that argument about anything then. "I don't hate Osama Bin Laden, I love that guy! I just hate the fact that he became a terrorist instead of a pacifist." Are you going to defend that logic too?

no, because bin Laden doesn't comprise any part of my identity.

america is not some entity external to its people. its comprised of me, part of me. my ideals are american ideals because I grew up here every second of my life. I've never been anywhere else. I have no exposure to any other ideas other than what I have formed while filtering them through me, as an american.

I don't understand why people don't get that. treason is a political tool to contain revolution. people in support of the second amendment should support the abolishment of treason as well.

if you were to pick up arms against the government, that would be treasonous. if I pick up specific words against the government, that is treasonous evidently.

yet, the government is here for me and you. We are not here for it. and it is an it.

nothing I do can be treasonous, because I own the government. I can do whatever I want with it. the limit is the consensus of my fellow citizens. so if i get out of hand, shoot me dead. but don't limit my speech or actions via some abstract entity--that you view as legitimate only because some parchment says it's so. that's such a locked in mentality.

spit on me, punch me, shoot me, but don't try me for a crime because I work actively against a structure I don't think represents me. that's my inaliable right. and it's totally american.

treason as a label and tool is abhorrent. the ideals I grew up with are that if our government doesn't serve the people, we have a right and an obligation to change it. we have multiple tools--the first one is our voice. the second one is our weapons.

[Coppertop]

Originally Posted by aktornado

Also, for those of you who are defending Moore, saying that "He loves America, he just hates what America has become," or something to that ilk, that's a ridiculous argument. America is what it is, folks. If you hate what it has become, then you currently hate America.

I mean you can make that argument about anything then. "I don't hate Osama Bin Laden, I love that guy! I just hate the fact that he became a terrorist instead of a pacifist." Are you going to defend that logic too?

I love my friend, but I hate the fact that he became a junky. I will do everything in my power to help him clean up his life, but I need not love the junk.

There ya go.

[aktornado]

Originally Posted by Coppertop

I love my friend, but I hate the fact that he became a junky. I will do everything in my power to help him clean up his life, but I need not love the junk.

There ya go.

Excellent point. It's hard to argue that.

[psyday]

I'm not a big fan of Moore, but mostly because I think he is willing to sell out the soul of the nation to make a buck. He basically intends to enrage rather than build up. That's fine and he makes plenty of good points. I don't hate him but I don't really like his tactics either.

People like Moore have spawned all of this hatred and self loathing people are going through right now because 'their guy' didn't win. We're all still Americans, neither Rome nor Washington was built in a day, to be this disheartened by a defeat is really a poor showing of how much worth your ideas have to begin with.

[TheHuntingone]

IMO he has a lot of guts to do movies like this...

At least he stands for his beliefs :P.

I also liked Fahrenheit 9/11 a lot... though some parts were a little too much anti-Bush.

Some parts like why Bin laden's family was able to leave america after the events of september 11, when all planes were grounded, astonishes me.

[theusername]

It's not his opinions that I have a problem with. It's the fact that he accuses politicians of lieing and being deceitful, except in all of his films he uses the same tactics that he criticizes. Michael Moore is no people's champion. He continually lies to prove his points and all the while making a ton of money and sitting on his fat ass laughing at all of us talk about him.

If anything, Michael Moore helped cost John Kerry this election because he scared so many damn people with his rhetoric.

[aktornado]

Originally Posted by TheHuntingone

Some parts like why Bin laden's family was able to leave america after the events of september 11, when all planes were grounded, astonishes me.

You do realize that that's not true though, right?

[ravenradiodj]

Uh, it's not true? If it could be proven to be untrue, one of you Republicans would surely have sued Moore's ass off by now for lying. You all talk about how "lawful" you all are - I say prove Moore wrong in court, take all his money, and rub it all in our faces. PROVE IT - don't just say it. If you can't prove the documentation in the movie is fraudulent, then where do you get off saying it didn't happen? You may BELIEVE what you like, but don't state your BELIEFS as if they are FACTS, which is what you accuse him of doing. Play by your own rules, for a change.

[Frowning Budah]

I saw F 9/11 and I saw it for what it was, a slick nicely edited piece trying to convey a particular view point. I didn't buy all the arguments and realized it was one mans opinion of the truth. I have seen the Other side do exactly the same thing. Does Michael Moore hate America. I doubt it very much. The worse you can say is he did it for the money and I don't believe that either.
I think so many of us worry abt Bush and his supporters is their intolerance of anyone who doesn't agree with everything they say. Disagreement is not treason it is freedom.

[ShaniFaye]

I watched it today....the only thing I fear is people that see it wont understand the "slant" It was a typical MM movie

A point Dave brought up....in the movies of his I've seen he includes a part about Flint Michigan and how awful things are there for people....Does he take any of the proceeds of his movies and give to help those people?

[ravenradiodj]

Yes, some proceeds from 1996's "The Big One" went to children living below the poverty line in Flint. Dunno about his other movies, guess that's his business, just like it's each of our business how much we give to what charities. I love the Republicans who criticize Moore for being a millionaire who speaks for working people, yet somehow feel George W. Bush's family millions and connections, Skull and Bones membership, Yale degree, etc., somehow make him MORE qualified than Moore to understand and support the average citizen. Moore was an average broke slob for most of his life, like the rest of us, while GWB's work experience is limited to taking businesses his Daddy gave him and running them into the ground.
________________________________________________________________________

"This is an impressive group. The haves, and the have mores. Some call you the elite. I call you my base." - George W. Bush

[Lebell]

Originally Posted by ravenradiodj

Uh, it's not true? If it could be proven to be untrue, one of you Republicans would surely have sued Moore's ass off by now for lying. You all talk about how "lawful" you all are - I say prove Moore wrong in court, take all his money, and rub it all in our faces. PROVE IT - don't just say it. If you can't prove the documentation in the movie is fraudulent, then where do you get off saying it didn't happen? You may BELIEVE what you like, but don't state your BELIEFS as if they are FACTS, which is what you accuse him of doing. Play by your own rules, for a change.

The 9/11 commission found this charge to be baseless.

No, it's not true.