OFKU0

I don't know what this person's expertise is other than being a journalist. I didn't say he was any type of expert.

What I do know is that his life was in danger as was the company he was with. Do I believe him? I guess I have to since it was bullets flying by his head and not mine, unless he is biased and/or untruthful in his opinion regarding his eye witness account.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

onetime2

So he couldn't be confused in his account? If I had to put money on which was the more confused party in a combat situation, trained Marines who have likely been under fire before or a journalist my money will go down on the Marines.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

pan6467

OK 1 MORE TIME=============>

US,
LAW ABIDING,
NAVY VETERAN,
CITIZEN HERE.

I HAVE THE RIGHT TO QUESTION AND VOICE MY VIEWS ON MY GOVERNMENT AND THE PRESIDENT ANYWAY ANYTIME AND IN ANY CIVIL AND NON THREATENING MANNER!

TO FUCKING SAY THAT BECAUSE OF MY POLITICS I HAVE NO SAY OR IMPLY MY SAY IS OF LITTLE VALUE, IS TO SAY, YOU, SIR, TRULY DO NOT BELIEVE IN FREEDOM. FOR OUR COUNTRY IS BASED ON THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND EXCHANGING OF IDEAS PEACEFULLY, AND WITHOUT ANY FORM OF RETRIBUTION OR HARRASSMENT OF DIFFERING BELIEFS. TO CALL ME UNPATRIOTIC OR TO REFER TO ME OR MY BELIEFS AS UNPATRIOTIC IS IN AND OF ITSELF UNPATRIOTIC.

I WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH (AS PROVEN WHEN I WAS IN THE NAVY) FOR MY FREEDOMS AND YOUR GRANTED TO US BY GOD AND BY THE GREAT FRAMERS OF THIS NATION, JEFFERSON, ADDAMS, FRANKLIN, HAMILTON AND SO ON.

I WILL NOT EVER SUPPORT A PRESIDENT, NOR A WAR OF TOTAL FABRICATION, LIES AND MUSCLE SHOWING (I DO, HOWEVER, PRAY FOR SAFE RETURN OF EVERY MILITARY PERSON WE SENT OVER, WHICH YES, PEOPLE CAN DO, BELIEVE IT OR NOT )

YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHO I AM, SO YOU HAVE NO IDEA EXCEPT FROM WHAT I HAVE SAID IN POSTS AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND HAVE BEEN TOLD TO BELIEVE (FROM OTHERS) WHAT I MEAN FROM MY POSTS.

I AM EX NAVY, MY BEST FRIEND IS NOW OVER THERE IN A MARINE UNIFORM. WE ARE BROTHERS FROM A DIFFERENT MOTHER.

I DONOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK I MEAN OR WHAT YOU FEEL I MEAN. DO NOT EVER QUESTION WHETHER OR NOT I SUPPORT THE TROOPS, YOU SHOW HOW TRULY IGNORANT YOU ARE.

Sorry for the rant but I am growing very tired of the right's implications that because I do not morally and philosophically in anyway agree with this war and believe events like this just add more fuel, then I in no way can support our troops or that I am unpatriotic.

And 1 final note: SF has the same right to speak his mind in the US as anyone else. The only reason this became a flame thread was because people took it there. It's like the media, you don't like what a guy says turn it off and walk away. Unfortunately, and I myself am very guilty of this, you read a thread you see implications being made or know from a previous thread someone is going to attack and the emotions take over.

Sad really what this country has come to. there was a time not too long ago when both sides got along and it wasn't a power struggle over who was right and who is wrong. Back then it was just do it if it helps better the country, no matter which side it came from, and people debated peacefully, maybe changed minds or at least allowed the other to see the reasoning behind their views and walked away as friends. They did not argue and fight and try to draw blood and lust for all the power, and attack private lives and families and whatever.

Heaven forbid, if you truly are like the vast 80% of Americans and by nature are a centrist you are attacked WRONGLY but equally harsh from both sides for not being able to make a decision.

IN THE END THERE IS NO LEFT THERE IS NO RIGHT TO BE CONSIDERED THE ONLY THING TO BE CONSIDERED IS WHAT IS BEST FOR THE FUTURE GROWTH OF OUR CHILDREN AND THIS COUNTRY THAT WE ALL LOVE.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

onetime2

Ummm not to interrupt this wonderful dialogue but...

As you shout about your right to free speech, so should you realize that Matthew is allowed to voice his opinions as well. Just because someone has a right to free speech that does not mean that you have a right not to have your points disagreed with.

Can we all try to stick to the topics without getting into personal pissing contests?

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

matthew330

....sorry i called you a "she"

seretogis

It is never necessary to assault the rest of the board with that much abuse of the capslock key -- and yet, how fitting that you should do so.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Kadath

Not to slam SF, but some of us lefties tend to tune him out, same as we do to some of the extreme righties. I think you only seeing enough to support your beliefs about us.

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it's quiet in here

matthew330

**slowly pulls himself up fighting for consciousness**

"did i win?"

Kadath

I agree with the last, but I'd like to point out that while free speech is protected, slander isn't. That is all.

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it's quiet in here

OFKU0

I supposed he could be confused about the accounts but then again I suppose the White House and the Pentagon can be confused about what happened also.

I guess it's just a matter of perception. I am just relaying one eye witness account from some one who happened to witness what when on. Who knows, maybe if he is correct he just might be pissed off that he isn't as safe as he would like to be, not that this is the problem of the U.S soldiers. I don't think anyone is forcing him to go into the hotspots.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

lurkette

*cracking the modwhip*

Things seem to have calmed down a bit, but folks, keep it civil. Lots of room for flaring tempers and misunderstandings here, so take a deep breath before you post. Thanks.

Carry on!

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

matthew330

ahhh...i get it. so if i say "america sucks", you can't say "you're anti-american"

sorry - i'm leaving this thread for good.

seretogis

It's not slander if it's true. Particularly, "Your hatred for Bush supercedes your respect for the country."

Democrats revel in the failures of Republicans (perceived or otherwise), and Republicans do the same. The deaths of our enlisted men and women is politicized every day -- be it Clinton's failure in Kosovo, or Bush's in Iraq. Threads like this are nothing but political maneuvering where there should be none.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Kadath

Well, isn't that a clever soundbite.

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it's quiet in here

reconmike

This was the 2nd battalion 1st marines 1st marine division,

A unit I know very well from being in it and attached to it, they ARE NOT weekend warriors. They are professionals who train very hard at their craft.

For this journalist to say that they wear scared, is probably because they were laughing at him for shitting himself when it all went down.

And how can anyone on this thread condone the original title of US MURDERS civilians?

This isnt the first time when a news story breaks someone on the left rushes to judgement and posts something that turns out not to be true.
Just because they need something, anything to make Bush and this administration look bad.

I read somewhere, I cant remember where but GW himself ordered hellfire into a orphanage that was hosting a blind widow parade.

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Where is Darwin when ya need him?

smooth

Thanks for clearing that up.

I wasn't sure if this group was comprised of reserves or not--I just read that the reserves are being relied upon heavily in Iraq.

Given that you've fought next to reserves before, is my analysis of how they act correct? Are they just as well trained and stoic as the regular soldiers? I wonder about the mercs' level of training, too.

I'm just curious since we have the benefit of someone who's actually been there.

BTW, I didn't see the original title, but even if I had, just because I don't chastise someone doesn't mean I agree with the sentiment.

debaser

I'll speak to the last point.

Guard and Reserve soldiers have the same skills as their active counterparts. Many of them are combat vets and 60% of them served in the active component. The average age tends to be about 35, as opposed to 25 in the active military, but experience generally bridges the gap in physical ability.

The biggest difference is in discipline, the Reserve component is much more lax. The entire culture is different from the active component.

Who fights better? With the exception of high speed units such as the 82nd and 101st, I'd say reservists and guardsmen are every bit the equal of their active counterparts, and in some situations, such as nation-building, they are better.

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smooth

Is the culture difference that reserves primarily self-identify as civilians?

If so, I wonder if that identification is correlated with their ability to be "better" at nation-(re)building.

I guess I've hijacked the thread, but at least the last three of us aren't spitting venom at each other

debaser

Granted

The dynamic of the reserve component (in which I now serve) is different on many levels.

For instance if you are a company commander, your driver may be your boss during the week. This leads to a very egalitarian relationship between officers and enlisted. In my experience this has not translated to poor battlefield discipline, although I certainly see the opportunity for that to be a problem.

The nation building issue is partialy due to self-identity (though I had not thought of that until you brought it up), but primarily due to every soldier bringing another set of skills to the table. Your tank gunner is also an AC repairman, your chaplain is also a lawyer, etc.

Hope this answered some questions...

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smooth

Yep, thank you very much for the info, debaser.

See ya around.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

OFKU0

I believe the journalist was situated at the heaviest U.S causualty site as recount, the day he was describing.

I believe 14 marines were killed that day or the next.

If he was shitting himself, he wasn't the only one.

Just trying to balance the spun weight.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

onetime2

Of course slander can only be judged by a third party and not the two involved in the "slanderous" discourse.

Too often, "Where it concerns himself, Who's angry at a slander, makes it true. "

Catiline (act III, sc. 1)

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

soccerchamp76

This 20% of the country is fucking the situation up (and a good job dicking around they are doing) and it is the reason we should have never been in this fucking situation to begin with. How many more Marines and servicemen have to die before 'peace' is reached? Too goddamn many.

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Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

analog