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"the moral thing to do"?
underneath this repulsive display of television-bourne sanctimoniousness from conservatives is a sequence of incoherent claims. as usual, one premise comes from character assassination of the husband. republican hatchet men apparently feel that they are in a better position to render judgements about this case than he is. [for the record, i neither know nor care about the details of this guy's life--i dont see how they are relevant to anything beyond buttressing an incoherent collective froth in which the foxnews variant of conservative spins) the usage of the term morality here makes it clear that for the right, it is a term without content, which they can fill as they like since they have convinced their followers that they control the entire discourse of morality. but if you do not accept the assumption that the right can declare for itself what is and its not moral, and you look at the arguments, such as they are, it is pretty clear that the morality claims make no sense whatsoever. particularly not from a population that a few months ago was rapidly behind the war in iraq, which has no problem accepting the rationalization of torture, which is mobilized efficiently across the transmission belt system of right ideology to support any and all bushworld initiatives, no matter how insane they might be, no matter their consequences for folk living and yet to be living. so if the morality argument is basically worth less than the energy it just took to type the phrase "the morality argument" then what is really going on here? is this whole thing about a symbolic fight in favor of inherited privilege over legal relations? how can the right on the one hand blab endlessly about the centrality of marriage and then on the other seek to usurp the legal priroity of the relation husband-wife and replace with with parents/children? is the real argument about the image of the community--one based on hierarchies rooted in birth, in succession, all of which operate in a wholly private domain, as over against legal relations? in which case, this is not about terry schiavo at all, but is rather some sick theater of republican delusions about the nature of Authority (always either divinely rooted or rooted in birth lines--both private, both not open to question). it cannot be about health care, really, because the right has nothing coherent to say about it beyond cheerleading for the existing system no matter how incoherent. it cannot be about "life" because from what i can tell, life is not an issue for terry schiavo. maybe it is about the possibility of miracles. usually, with such things, the best strategy is to divert attention from real time and write a story about what happened after the fact--that way there are no camera watching and you can say as you like. miracles are easiest to find through ex post facto stories that work the claim to miracle into a starting assumption. but it appears that after 13 years or so, the rationale of waiting for a miracle has worn pretty thin. so the question changes: how long can those who might not or do not believe be kept in a state of suspended pseudo-animation, their desires subordinated to the articles of faith of the christian right? is that what this is about then? the subordination of legal channels, legal relations, to fantasies rooted in a particular religious position which has the quirk the tendency to claim for itself a monopoly on the term christian? what does the right really hope to accomplish here? as much as i would love to see the entire edifice fall in on itself, i am not so naieve as to thing this a simple fuck up on the part of the aisle-rove axis--it must be understood as tactically functional at some level. but that functionality is so bizarre.... |
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the best i can come up with is that if you add the term american christian to the "right to life" bit, and combine it with the (mis?)conceptions of the faction of the gop base that considers itself to be extremely conservative christian, and allow for the fact that faction's beliefs will bleed over towards the more moderate parts of the spectrum, then that is what is going on. It's the one thing that ties the objection to stem cell research, objection to abortion, and this objection to self-chosen life termination, as long as you don't look at the issues on a particularly robust scale. Moral myopia is apparently contagious. |
after 10-15 years or whatever it is.....there is no hope of her condition getting better. She is middle aged, and the body deterioates naturally.....therefore it cannot heal as well as it could've...say 10 years prior. Her parents need to just accept this and let her go.....
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Denied AGAIN. The latest from CNN:
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Oh, and in other less important news :rolleyes: : Quote:
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Some of the things I consider when I attempt to unravel the functionality of these events is the mobilizing currency this issue is presenting to a highly agitable base. At the most basic level, the right positions itself in a win-win scenario, at least to its most activated members right now. They do something and obtain results, win They try and are rebuffed by the court system, they martyr, they win Both of those positions are easily frameable as oppositional to a judicial system gone awry, at least to this particular group of members. In the long run: this position appears to fit very well in opposition to the left's long battle over personal rights to death with dignity. As we look over the horizon, we might wonder what looms in terms of the most divisive issue driving vocal minorities to the voting polls--abortion. That issue is on the wane, whether it be settled in their favor via a reconstituted court, or through the political process. Either way, it's mobalizing power is beginning to slip. On to greener, and newly created politically divisive issues, it appears. |
Perhaps of interest: I read about this earlier this morning.
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parallel argument to the above, run out at greater length, from today's ny times.
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/27/ar...721740&ei=5070 Quote:
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Im confused on something.....can somebody please explain to me why the people on the side of the parents dont get why gov bush cant do anything about this? Am I missing something? Am I the only one that thinks it totally ridiculous that these people expect him to go against the court rulings?
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These are the same people that think that the courts have taken too much power. They think that, as governor, Jeb should do what needs be done. They sort of have a point, is a republican majority house going to impeach him for breaking the law?
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One thing you can say about the Schiavo circus: it caught the religious right with its pants down. |
Regardless of where one stands on this issue, in light of the fact that there is a lack of concensus in the medical community on whether Terri's condition is or will ever be reversible, I think the following is a compelling example of what she could be going through (from someone who has been there - declared to be in a persistent vegitative state and had her feeding tube removed.) Granted, 3 months is not quite equivilant to 15 years, but it is food for thought.....
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I watched that episode.
In light of the evidence that portions of Mrs. Shiavo's brain are no longer intact, I didn't find her analogy between the two sitations compelling. There is no lack of consensus among the medical community, except among the people who haven't directly diagnosed Mrs. Shiavo. |
Perhaps. But according to Kate Adamson, her doctors' prognoses for her were just as bleak. "Doctors had given up hope that Kate would ever recover."
It's a tough call, to be sure. |
ok, Im confused again...she's comparing a brain stem stroke to the cerebrum being replaced with spinal fluid? Am I reading that right? From what I understand that is nothing wrong with Terri's brain stem....so how are the two things related?
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I think prognosis is the common theme in these two cases.
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If prognosis becomes the basis for comparison, we open the debate to every bad prediction made by any doctor; or maybe we'll limit it to inaccurate predictions in regards to recovery from brain disorders. My wife spoke with her father last night, who has in the past expressed a desire to not have life-sustaining measures taken in the event of a catastrophe, to see whether he would contradict his past expressions on the matter to retain what is evidently becoming a party line. His response to this apparent contradiction was that he is opposed to being hooked up to a breathing apparatus, whereas Mrs. Shiavo is able to breath on her own. There must be other details in his living will, because that seems to be an extremely arbitrary disctinction on the face of it. Now, the idea that someone without a functioning, indeed with liquified portions, brain who can breath on her own is disctinct from, and a more highly valued life, than a person with a functioning brain but who's lungs aren't working is bizarre to me. I think that opinion really brings to light the notion that to, at least some, members of the christian coalition the body/soul is a mystical object that can not be and is not understood by modern scientists. This disdain of science among such members percolates into every aspect of the secular world and becomes oppositional to major scientific understandings of humanity: spanning (pro)creation to death. This latest story, where you accurately depicted the critical difference between 3 months and 15 years, is an attempt to ramp up emotional appeal that doctors are fallable. Therefore, according to this logic, the doctors could be fallable and one ought to "error on the side of life." Unless I'm using this incorrectly, I think it's a non-sequitar. The diagnoses might appear to have been similar, which isn't surprising since the symptoms appear the same--but the causes for the symptom are radically different. |
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i don't hold a lot of faith in what she has to say. i've heard about her speaking out on this issue, and both she and the people who parrot her can never seem to get the story straight. check out her website, http://www.katesjourney.com/ and look in the articles area. the bio area doesn't tell a whole lot about what happened. for example at http://www.katesjourney.com/southbayhealth.html [quote = http://www.katesjourney.com/southbayhealth.html] Adamson’s recovery began in the blink of an eye. As she lay in the intensive care unit, connected to breathing tubes and intravenous feeding lines, Adamson could do nothing but think and pray. Without the ability to move, she had no way to communicate with the outside world, no way to tell her doctors or her husband that she was awake and aware. Then her husband, desperate to reach her and grasping at straws, asked her to blink her eyes if she could understand him. It took all her energy to make it happen, but somehow Adamson found the strength to do it — she blinked. [/quote] hmm... feeding tube unhooked? not according to this article. while i haven't looked very deep into the articles yet, i have yet to see it mentioned as her being in a PVS. she's described multiple times (by herself in her bio even) as having 'locked-in syndrome.' quite a different thing. i take anything she has to say regarding this situatin with a grain of salt. |
Michael Schaivo announced this morning there will be an autopsy to definitively determine the extent of brain damage. The parents have pushed for one already.
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They have just announced on the radio that Terri has passed away
rest in peace Terri....you've earned it |
RIP Terri.
And btw, hubby of the year refused her brother to see Terri last night and this morning. Nice. |
I am thankful she was released from her suffering. Her passing came much too late in my estimation. Maybe now the people involved can get on with their lives!
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You mean this debacle is over? We can get back to our lives again? Congress can resume their oh-so-important baseball investigation, and worry about pending legislature on ANWR, Healthcare, etc? Jeb's gotta be sad to see his TV time drop so suddenly.
I'm just waiting for the minister I saw on TV shouting "There will be Hell to pay if Terri dies!" to come crawling back out of the woodwork. Err on the side of life my friends, and now that this circus is over, where will that line of rhetoric take us regarding the death penality, war, health care, and affirming the quality of life for..you know...those of us with a life to live? |
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Apparently the person who was wouldn't feel any pain was prescribed morphine. I thought morphine was to control pain?
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The morphine issue has been raised and cut down many times in this thread alone. It is normal for Hospice patients of her sort to recieve painkillers, mostly for the comfort of relatives and family to ensure at least a less painful death. |
I saw this on CNN's main page and thought it was pretty funny - "Bush: Millions saddened by Schiavo's death"... painting this picture as if there are a ton of people actually sad by this as opposed to being pissed off that she was kept alive (well, body kept alive, everything inside dead) for 15 years.
Sure, bud... why don't ya just go ahead and speak for everyone without any actual credentials to back it up ;) |
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I think if I were the husband, under these circumstances, I'd go to court and let them take back legal responsibility for her and her medical bills and see if they still feel the way they are acting like they do now
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rather than make a new thread about this...I thought I'd just post the autopsy results in the original thread
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Ah yes, so Terry was blind. Flashback time, kiddies! Remember mean old mister Frist, worst doctor ever?
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Well, I'm sure we can look forward to Tom Delay and Bill Frist apologizing to Michael Schiavo for the hell they put him through tonight at 11.
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" He also said she was blind, because the "vision centers of her brain were dead."
Being that autopsy's are more often than not post-mortem, wouldn't everything in her brain be dead? In all seriousness guy44 this: "She certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli" is not a medical diagnosis, it's an opinion, a professional one at that. One which many shared based on the videos shows and because of Terri's controlling behavior, is all anyone had to go on. This does not make him an ass or the worst doctor ever. |
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and of course autopsies are post-mortem. but you differentiate healthy tissue from diseased and dead tissue. you keep the corpse nice and cold so it doesn't start decomposing until after you're done with the autopsy. the fact that the brain was about half the weight of a healthy one shows that areas of it no longer existed, and they can look at the tissue of the various areas of the brain to see where damage had been done. |
As soon as I saw this story elsewhere, I knew this thread was going to get the bump. What I find most annoying, is the fact that the parents' lawyer is already talking about "unspecified legal action" (civil court?) based on review by other medical experts. It's one thing for them to *think* they can buy / solicit testimony that will corroborate some sort of "wrongful death" suit, but I find it annoying for them to basically say it publicly.
I'll tell ya this: I used to be pro-choice, but I am so, like, pro-life now. Because "they" killed a brain-dead woman in Florida. |
I suspect that many are of the opinion that medical science is "only a theory" and much of it's body of knowledge, including the practice of pathology, "cannot be proven".
Many medical outcomes, seem to some to be beyond the realm of the expertise of practitioners, since they could not, left to themselves, achieve such a high level of proficiency just 6000 years after the lord created the heavens and the earth. Face it, people, when you post autopsy results as vindication, you are preaching only to the choir. Ten effing pages of this B.S. thread, a distraction from all of the pressing problems related to our lives, and here I am, feeding it, too. Sheesh!! |
I dont call it preaching to the choir, there was quite a debate going a few months ago....whats wrong with updating people on the end? No matter the outcome I would have posted it so it had nothing to do with "vindication".
Its sad that you thought it was BS, but that doesnt mean that everyone with an opinion on it thought that. |
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