alkaloid

I've been wondering about it for a while. I can't really decide though.

MSD

Now that's a loaded question if I've ever heard one.

dy156

I've been a big supporter of Bush, and have defended him many times. He is not an idiout or evil, and I think his heart is in the right place, but I also think that he's taken some bad positions and is making several mistakes lately. Even I am growing tired of it.

lurkette

Neither. He is an ideologue.

I think he believes sincerely that what he is doing is right. He simply believes uncompromisingly in his own vision, which is dangerous when your vision is informed by half-baked born-again End Times nonsense, a silver-spoon upbringing, and a startling lack of knowledge and information. He sees things as black and white and has no feeling for nuance, and I don't think he has the patience to try to understand complicated systems. He needs to have situations broken into familiar, easily understood narratives, which leads to poor understanding of the larger situation and therefore poor decisions and poor outcomes.

However, in my more cynical moments I wouldn't put it past him to just be engineering a massive wealth-grab for him and his buds. Evil.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Arc101

Stupid, evil and power hungry. Also convinced he is right and God is on his side. He scares the crap out of me, he is person most likely to start world war 3.

geep

I don't see this as an either/or proposition. He could be both or neither. The comment reveals only truth about the idealogical position of the person who asked the question and is biased towards a viewpoint held by same.

onetime2

Neither.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

eple

Worse: he is a fanatic.

seretogis

At least a fanatic stands for something, unlike the wishy-washy do-nothing opponents that he will likely have in the coming election.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

MuadDib

Too stupid to realize he is doing evil.

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

seretogis

Your sig reminds me of his memorial service, MuadDib.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

eple

"Hitler may be exaggerating a bit, but at least he does something,unlike the wishy-washy do-nothing opponents that he will likely have in the coming election."

Mojo_PeiPei

Bush isn't a fanatic, you god-hating liberals assume because someone has faith that they are some fanatic. Bush addressed the question last night, he doesn't let God influence his decisions, is it so wrong to pray for guidance and strength??? He isn't stupid or evil, he is human, every politician has their faults, just so happens that Bush is president in a very shaky part of time.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

eple

"Gott mit uns"
:P haha, the Hitler-references may never end.

WhoaitsZ

will 'he's a fucking idiot' suffice?

and yes he is evil.

Mojo_PeiPei

HUME: Now, your faith is an integral part of your life. How often do you pray? Where you do you pray? Talk to me about that.

BUSH: Well, I pray daily, and I pray in all kinds of places. I mean, I pray in bed, I pray in the Oval Office. I pray a lot. And just different -- as the spirit moves me. And faith is an integral part of my life. I -- I...

HUME: How do you hold the situation in Iraq in juxtaposition to your faith?

BUSH: Well, I -- first of all, I would never justify -- I would never use God to promote foreign policy decisions. I recognize that in the eyes of an almighty, I am a lowly sinner, and I ask for strength and wisdom and I pray for calmness when the seas are storming, and I pray for others. I pray for -- I pray a lot for families who have lost a life. I went to Walter Reed, was struck by the braveness -- bravery of our soldiers, and kind of got a quiet moment afterwards and prayed for them and their families.

Cut from the interview with Hume...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98006,00.html

Yeah those sound like the words of a fanatic to me...

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

mystmarimatt

lurkette, you took the words right out of my mouth. It's very frightening to see him doing what he's doing, and he just cannot grasp what the consequences might be. If anyone is 'Evil', it might be those behind him, but him, he's just frighteningly stupid.

__________________
Words of Wisdom:

If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane.

Bill O'Rights

The one thing that I might add to lurkette's insightful observation is that I believe Bush to be a puppet, manipulated by special interests and his so called advisors. The President is only as good as those that he surrounds himself with. If you're looking for evil...I'd start there.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

MuadDib

Ouch, kind of a low blow there. Its no secret that Bush is not a progressive and that Sen. Wellstone did not support a great number of his policies. I'll be the first to admit that the way the funeral went was tragic and unintended by the family. It was most certainly not the time to host a partisan roast. I guess I really don't know what your getting at, but I assume you are implying that it is wrong to use Wellstone's name and words in a post where I say that Bush is stupid. The only thing I can really say is that my comment isn't a partisan swipe so much as it is my observation that Bush is doing some things I consider evil, but I don't think he is doing them because he is evil as much as because he isn't aware of the wrong he is doing. I support the late senator's view of taking politics back to the people of this country and maintaining his compassionate agenda. Bush is in more pockets than the Sacagawea dollar and his compassion is readily seen in his cutting children's health care money to pay for his tax cuts. I see no qualm asking people to vote with their hearts and in the same breath speaking against a president who listens to his heart as often as America listens to AM radio.

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Mojo_PeiPei

One observation about Wellstone and other "progressive" Liberal politicians... its easy to be compassionate with other people's money, and I think to some extent they abuse that to get votes. Me being from Minnesota I admire Wellstone, he was sincere and did a hell of a job sticking to his word and sticking to his convictions. At the same time I think some of his policy's were "evil", doesn't mean that I didn't respect him even though politically I couldn't stand him.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

lurkette

Yeah, he just got dealt a bad hand as president. Please. If you can't stand the fire, get out of the kitchen.

And faith does not equal fanaticism, you are right. But he walks the knife's edge. He's just enough of a politician to refuse to kowtow to the religious right because he knows that, at least for now, they have no alternative, and he doesn't want to piss off the moderates who may help elect him next time around. But any politician who believes the Bible is the literal truth will be regarded with a good deal of suspicion by this voter.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

lurkette

True - now Karl Rove, that's evil. *shudders* And Uncle Rummy *shudders again*. Add Wolfowitz and Cheney and you've got the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. If you believe in all that End Times nonsense

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

MuadDib

/thread hijacking senses tingling

Mojo:

Fair enough. I do want to point out that being progressive does not necessitate being liberal. Though most (including myself) are, I do know quite a few conservative progressives as well. About other peoples money, I suppose it really comes down to whether or not you have a sense of responsibility towards your fellow man. It isn't just other peoples money, it is as much my money as yours that pays for these initatives, it is about fairness, equality, and accountability. The current American political engine is set up such that politics (and the ability to enact change) rests within a dynastic elite. If you aren't a member of the this elite when you enter politics then you almost certainly will be shortly following. The system is messed up. There is no reason a rich man should get better medical treatment than a poor man, his life is not more valuable. There is no reason a black man should be more likely to get the death sentence than a white man, his crimes are no more heinous. There is no reason those who make the most money should be able to act above the law, they are still citizens. There is no reason that heterosexuals should be able to have families and enjoy tax and insurance benefits while homosexual families are not sanctioned and get no benefits, a family is still a family. I could go on, but I think the point is clear. Power in this country no longer rest with the people and the money that pays for programs of equality come disproportionately from those who can least afford them but need them the most. Unfortunately, the way things are in this counrty requires money to solve problems because money runs politics and media and those are the tools of democracy. It isn't evil to have taxes or to use tax money to forward society and equality, it is evil that the taxes and programs won't be enough because only the poor pay for them. Part of being a citizen is having a duty to your country, state, city, and most of all your neighbor. Raising taxes isn't the best answer, but when we can't touch the military spending (past and present accounts for almost 50% of the current budget) then what choice to we have? I'm all for cutting military spending when not making one stealth jet could fully fund benefits for 3 million teachers. But seeing as the current congress doesn't see that as viable then it does come down to a citizens responsibility to the society he lives in to pay taxes and have those taxes go to relieving the poor, the hungry, the young, and the old who need it.
Anyway, no I realize I'm preaching so I'll stop. All I really have to say is that nothing that comes from compassion can be evil. My disrespect for President Bush doesn't come merely from a disagreement over his policies. It comes from my belief that he is an owned politician who serves a tight group of special interests which makes him often act outside the good of the people towards the good of the interest group. This is no exclusive to him but I do feel that it is these interests that are destroying democracy and do unjustice to the American people.

Addendum: If the progressive/liberal/conservative debate is going to go on much past this let's create a seperate thread for it.

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

homerhop

From a non American point of view I think that Bush and his "we are American and and will do as we please" attitude is more of a threat to America and the security of its people than Saddam ever was.

__________________
its evolution baby

seretogis

Actually, the comment was simply about your sig, not relating to this thread in the slightest. I probably should have just PM'd it to you. I didn't know Wellstone personally, so honestly I can't say whether he was a good man or not, but his policies made no sense to me at all. The service was, simply put, disgusting, and for me it tarnishes any image that I had of Wellstone.

I would much rather that someone vote with the organ that deals with logic and sense, than impulsive emotional response.*

*Yes, I am aware that the heart is merely a pump, but it is commonly referred to in a way that suggests it is a center of emotion, as it is in the quote in question.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

seretogis

Take a look at Germany pre-Hitler, and Germany post-Hitler. I think he did a pretty good job, if you disregard the genocide and attempt at world domination.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

eple

So....whatever it takes then?

seretogis

That seems to be your mantra, since for some reason you're comparing George W. Bush to Adolf Hitler.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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JBX

...Answer to the question posed. Neither

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

eple

Heh, flamebait. I was rather comparing your posts with the probable mantra in Hitler-Germany. The problem comes when you seek a strong leader to hail without questioning his motives.

seretogis

Regardless of the quality of someone's leadership, if they seek the office of President, rest assured that I will be questioning their motives. In our political system you cannot get to that position without making some deals with the devil, sotospeak.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

MuadDib

Like I said, I completely agree with you that the memorial turned out horribily. I can assure you that that was not the intent of the family or staff that organized the event. Out of curiosity what policies were so nonsensical to you?

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

eple

Good for you. We all need critic voters. I just found your "at least he does something" comment quite a historically loaded one.

eple

double post, why can't I delete?

james t kirk

I feel that under GWB the world has become a very dark place.

After watching about as much of him last night on fox as i could possibly stomach i would have to vote for stupid.

The chicken hawks behind him are evil.

W is just plain stoopid.

It is painful to watch the man speak. Supposedly he has an IQ of 91. I would have to agree with that.

Please vote his ass out in the next election.

Mojo_PeiPei

I think this post is way off base, Bush takes nearly as much scrutiny as Clinton did is his Monica days.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

rogue49

Neither,
although he is a willing ally of the military-industrial complex and the oil consortiums.

The_Dude

Extremely stupid.

__________________
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

oldman2003

I couldn't agree more. Read what his dad and that admin has to say about the neocons but first.....

This is a little 'lefty' but check out this link from a psychotherapist.

http://counterpunch.org/norris09202003.html

I'll quote a little of the article so you get the general flavor if you don't want to read the whole thing....

"I'm a psychotherapist. And, having never seen George in therapy, despite my open invitation, it would be unethical for me to make an official diagnosis of him. So, I won't. But, I can kick some thoughts around.

Remember Tom Hanks' movie, "Big," when the kid, by an accident of fate, finds himself turned into an adult, playing grown-up roles he is not developmentally ready for? This is George. I don't mean this maliciously or satirically; I really mean it. I think developmentally speaking George is a big kid. Lots of people are. The difference is they don't have the means to bomb human beings into "pink mist," obliterate the infrastructures of countries, and poison the world with coal and pesticides and carbon dioxide and depleted uranium and napalm, as they play grown up.

Nowhere was George playing grown-up more conspicuous than his staged re-election photo op on the USS Lincoln. When I saw him all dressed up pretending to be a naval aviator, I kept waiting for him to pull out his GI Joe doll with karate action, sit down and start playing: "Bring 'em on. We can take 'em. Huh, Joe? Take that--heeeyah," while making Joe do a big karate chop as the real soldiers look on, saluting their Commander in Chief."



Now to address those around him:

“The Crazies Are Back”: Bush Sr.’s CIA Briefer Discusses How Wolfowitz & Allies Falsely Led the U.S. To War

http://www.democracynow.org/article..../09/17/1543215


A little sample of that link:


RAY MCGOVERN: Well, you know it’s really interesting. When we saw these people coming back in town, all of us said who were around in those days said, oh my god, ‘the crazies’ are back – ‘the crazies’ – that’s how we referred to these people.

AMY GOODMAN: Did George Bush refer to them that way?

RAY MCGOVERN: That’s the way everyone referred to them.

AMY GOODMAN: Including George Bush?

RAY MCGOVERN: Well, when Wolfowitz prepared that defense posture statement in 1991, where he elucidated the strategic vision that has now been implemented, Jim Baker, Secretary of State, Brent Scowcroft, security advisor to George Bush, and George Bush said hey, that thing goes right into the circular file. Suppress that thing, get rid of it. Somebody had the presence of mind to leak it and so that was suppressed. But now to see that arise out of the ashes and be implemented. while we start a war against Iraq, I wonder what Bush the first is really thinking. Because these were the same guys that all of us referred to as ‘the crazies’.