Military fleeing the Bush administration finally. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Superbelt · 09-05-2003, 10:57 AM

Zinni blasting Bush war policies

In a speech to hundreds of military officers, Retired Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, a former U.S. Commander in the Middle East remains a consultant with the State Department

<blockquote>A former U.S. commander for the Middle East who still consults for the State Department yesterday blasted the Bush administration's handling of postwar Iraq, saying it lacked a coherent strategy, a serious plan and sufficient resources...."There is no strategy or mechanism for putting the pieces together," said retired Marine Gen. Anthony C. Zinni, and so, he said, "we're in danger of failing."

Zinni's comments were especially striking because he endorsed President Bush in the 2000 campaign, shortly after retiring from active duty, and serves as an adviser to the State Department on anti-terror initiatives in Indonesia and the Philippines. He preceded Army Gen. Tommy R. Franks as chief of the U.S. Central Command, the headquarters for U.S. military operations in Iraq and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Zinni's comments to the joint meeting in Arlington of the U.S. Naval Institute and the Marine Corps Association, two professional groups for officers, were greeted warmly by his audience, with prolonged applause at the end. Some officers bought tapes and compact discs of the speech to give to others.</blockquote>

Quote:

If George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the rest of the chickenhawks currently running this country had fought in Vietnam, instead of hiding from it, we wouldn't be in this deadly, chaotic, expensive mess in Iraq. They would remember what a dead soldier or Marine looks like, and anybody who's ever seen one knows better than to rush off to battle without first having considered all of the diplomatic alternatives.

Since March, when we invaded a foreign country for reasons that have all since proved to be unfounded, American servicemen and women have been dying and being wounded for no articulable reason. Vietnam combat veterans--who fought valiantly in an unwinnable war initiated and mismanaged by clueless politicians in dry socks sipping bourbon on the other side of the globe--have been warning, since before the invasion, that we were being pushed, dragged and stampeded into another quagmire.

The neoconservative politicians who wanted the war ridiculed us, waved our flag in our faces and accused us (of all people!) of being unpatriotic. While lecturing us on patriotism, they would point out, condescendingly, that Iraq was "nothing like Vietnam." Now, with the passage of each day, it's becoming more and more clear that the only substantive difference between Vietnam and Iraq is the color--Vietnam was green, Iraq is brown.

Please see the attached Washington Post article about a speech given yesterday by retired Marine General Anthony Zinni (who, coincidentally, retired at Quantico the same day my son Lee Kindlon was commissioned a Marine Lieutenant. I was there and I was bursting with pride for both of them). General Zinni knows a chaotic mess when he sees one.

Perhaps George W. Bush should read the article. Then he can go put on his borrowed flight suit costume and tell General Zinni he's being unpatriotic. I'd pay money to listen in on that conversation.

The names of some of my best friends are on The Wall in Washington, DC. I protest this mindless war--or whatever it is--in Iraq, and I say it is time we brought our troops home, where they belong. Semper Fi, Terence L. Kindlon (long ago and far away known as Sgt Kindlon, USMC)

All in all good news. It will help the democrats shed the lies of them being soft on national security and military interests. Especially now that they have two high profile names. Clark and Zinni who got resounding applause by his peers.

lurkette · 09-05-2003, 11:30 AM

I could stand up and cheer!!! Go Zinni!

omnigod · 09-05-2003, 02:36 PM

Before I read the article, one word bounced right out: "Retired".

From what i know, retired people dont have access to "classified" documents - which im guessing the entire war is based in. Which means he would not know if they have a strategy or not.

From my many years of RTS gaming

you dont tell anyone your strategy if you want to win. When they can't see the strategy it useally means its a really good strategy.

Ha ha, i wonder how many times people refer to game genres when talking about war politics

Now im going to read the article.

Zeld2.0 · 09-05-2003, 04:14 PM

No you don't need to know the exact strategy to have had experience and honestly speaking, a lot of what they do is very predictable for a general whose been there, done that.

seretogis · 09-05-2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by omnigod
Before I read the article, one word bounced right out: "Retired".

Exactly. I care about as much about what a retired general has to say on current conflicts as Bill Clinton has to say about family values.

debaser · 09-05-2003, 08:04 PM

Are the first three paragraphs of the quote verbatim from General Zinni, or are they commentary by someone else?

2wolves · 09-06-2003, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by omnigod
Before I read the article, one word bounced right out: "Retired".

From what i know, retired people dont have access to "classified" documents - which im guessing the entire war is based in. Which means he would not know if they have a strategy or not.

Having known a number of senior "retired" officers I can say with a 100% level of confidence that active serving officers frequently talk to old friends concerning matters which may or may not have classifications. Sometimes paper(s) is/are shared. Experience is not thrown away by wiser minds.

2Wolves

Zeld2.0 · 09-06-2003, 12:46 AM

i love how anything that might challenge a side's position is immediately dismissed without reading it by the opposing side

anyways i agree w/ 2wolves, even retired generals are consulted with - because knowledge is knowledge and wisdom is wisdom and you don't waste what you can get

prb · 09-06-2003, 05:21 AM

Some people only read what they want to read. Yes, the man is a retired Marine General, but he "still consults for the State Department." The man obviously has cred.

JamesS · 09-06-2003, 06:37 AM

Speaking of retirement, how about former army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki who was 'retired' by the Bush administration partially over this:

"When Shinseki testified earlier this year before a congressional panel that securing postwar Iraq would require hundreds of thousands of troops, Pentagon leaders publicly called his estimate "wildly off the mark." The absence of anyone from the Office of the Secretary of Defense at Shinseki's June retirement was widely noticed." - Boston Globe

Not to mention the 'retirement' of Army Secretary Thomas White.

james t kirk · 09-06-2003, 07:46 AM

WOW.

The one thing i often think about is Colin Powell and how he was never that keen on the war in Iraq.

Rumsfeld and Cheney used the media to label him a chicken and out of step with the administration. They tried to isolate him and were actively campaigning to get him turfed from the administration. (I hear now that he will not under any circumstances be part of any George Bush cabinet should Bush be re-elected.)

The truth of the matter is that of all of the "chicken hawks" in the Bush administration (- Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt) none of them actually fought in any war and they don't understand what it's like. I would love to send the three of them to Iraq to actually fight in a ground battle and see men killed first hand. To know what it's really like.

Powell who was so roundly criticised actually did two tours in Vietnam. He (like the article above) understands EXACTLY what war is really about. He has sent men to die, he has fought himself, and he has seen the carnage of war first hand.

He (Powell) knows that war is not a video game. The chicken hawks have NO CLUE.

Arc101 · 09-06-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Which means he would not know if they have a strategy or not.

Of course they have a strategy, wait until lots of soliders have died, leave claiming victory as Iraq becomes even worse, find another country to invade.

XenuHubbard · 09-06-2003, 09:52 AM

I don't trust politicians or generals UNTIL they are retired.
No risk for repercussions means that people can say what they really think.

09-05-2003, 11:30 AM	#2 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I could stand up and cheer!!! Go Zinni! __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

09-05-2003, 08:04 PM	#6 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	Are the first three paragraphs of the quote verbatim from General Zinni, or are they commentary by someone else? __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

09-06-2003, 06:37 AM	#10 (permalink)
JamesS Crazy Location: Land of the Hanging Chad	Speaking of retirement, how about former army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki who was 'retired' by the Bush administration partially over this: "When Shinseki testified earlier this year before a congressional panel that securing postwar Iraq would require hundreds of thousands of troops, Pentagon leaders publicly called his estimate "wildly off the mark." The absence of anyone from the Office of the Secretary of Defense at Shinseki's June retirement was widely noticed." - Boston Globe Not to mention the 'retirement' of Army Secretary Thomas White. __________________ The tragedy of life is what dies inside a man while he lives. -- Albert Schweitzer

09-06-2003, 09:52 AM	#13 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	I don't trust politicians or generals UNTIL they are retired. No risk for repercussions means that people can say what they really think. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

09-05-2003, 02:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
omnigod Tilted	Before I read the article, one word bounced right out: "Retired". From what i know, retired people dont have access to "classified" documents - which im guessing the entire war is based in. Which means he would not know if they have a strategy or not. From my many years of RTS gaming you dont tell anyone your strategy if you want to win. When they can't see the strategy it useally means its a really good strategy. Ha ha, i wonder how many times people refer to game genres when talking about war politics Now im going to read the article.

09-05-2003, 04:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	No you don't need to know the exact strategy to have had experience and honestly speaking, a lot of what they do is very predictable for a general whose been there, done that.

09-06-2003, 12:46 AM	#8 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	i love how anything that might challenge a side's position is immediately dismissed without reading it by the opposing side anyways i agree w/ 2wolves, even retired generals are consulted with - because knowledge is knowledge and wisdom is wisdom and you don't waste what you can get

09-06-2003, 05:21 AM	#9 (permalink)
prb Psycho	Some people only read what they want to read. Yes, the man is a retired Marine General, but he "still consults for the State Department." The man obviously has cred.

09-06-2003, 07:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	WOW. The one thing i often think about is Colin Powell and how he was never that keen on the war in Iraq. Rumsfeld and Cheney used the media to label him a chicken and out of step with the administration. They tried to isolate him and were actively campaigning to get him turfed from the administration. (I hear now that he will not under any circumstances be part of any George Bush cabinet should Bush be re-elected.) The truth of the matter is that of all of the "chicken hawks" in the Bush administration (- Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeldt) none of them actually fought in any war and they don't understand what it's like. I would love to send the three of them to Iraq to actually fight in a ground battle and see men killed first hand. To know what it's really like. Powell who was so roundly criticised actually did two tours in Vietnam. He (like the article above) understands EXACTLY what war is really about. He has sent men to die, he has fought himself, and he has seen the carnage of war first hand. He (Powell) knows that war is not a video game. The chicken hawks have NO CLUE.