Glad-I-Ate-Her

Zeld,
I was being facetious. My point is that the Japanese would have used the bomb without any hesitations. The Japanese scientists were interested in the bomb. They knew right away that the Americans had dropped an A-Bomb when they saw the devastation. I'm sure they would have loved having the bomb.

I know that the Germans were not to close in obtaining the bomb. The head of the German atomic research was captured after the Germans surrendered and brought to England. He was being interegated by MI-6 when he heard news of the explosions in Japan. He was shocked to learn that the Americans had actually created an atomic bomb.

You make a good point about the Americans only having 2 A Bombs. Don't you think the invasion would have been alot easier after we dropped the bombs than if we had not dropped the bombs? The Japanese civilians may have not fought as hard after the bombings. Just the threat of the Americans dropping future bombs would hold their resolve.

Glad

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I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

Zeld2.0

Thats not true they knew it off the start - the scientists who tested it at the Trinity test site in New Mexico didn't even know what the bomb would do - some though it would open a vortex (seriously, its quoted somewhere).

The Japanese were confused as fuck as to what the weapons were - they said it was a poison bomb because of the radiation. They had no clue nor the manufacturing ability to produce the bombs.

And yes I know of the Germans that were being held at the time - the lead designer of the German bomb (name slips from me at this moment) had the final calculation all wrong on the bomb - whether his conscience kicked in or he seriously got it wrong we may never know, but the Germans weren't shocked, they also saw the pictures taken and were amazed it even worked.

As for the invasion... the thing is, the Japanese were very confused as to what happened. All they knew is that the cities were wiped out in seconds - and that people were dying from radiation (which they were't aware of).

You think the civilians wouldn't have fought harder? they barely even knew of the bombs, the gov't could've hid the news, and remember - whatever the emperor says, the people do. If the emperor was a nut (thankfully he wasn't) - he could've listened to mnay of his generals and held out to the end if he wanted to.

The real decision came down to the emperor - the bombs only hastened / tilted his decision.

BigGov

(copy and pasted from another topic)

Pop Quiz: You don't know anything about war, either that, or you'd be the worst general of all time.

In order to attack Japan, there would have needed to be an amphibious assault that would have dwarfed D-Day.

I don't think you understand the casualty count of D-Day. So let me explain it all to you. And if you think "No, he's exagerating" you're wrong. I'm probably underestimating it.

Imagine going to a beach. Got a nice beach in mind? Good. Now, imagine 5 more just like it. Got it? Good. Now imagine bodies up and down each and every beach and in the water. Got that? Now change the color of the ocean from blue to red. Got that? Now imagine more dead bodies the further you go up the beach. Got that? Now imagine that at least 10 times larger.

Now imagine this. We finally have the fleet assembled in Spring 1946, we can finally do this. We're going to lose probably 1/3 - 1/2 of our troops because of the way the Japanese fight. But we're ready to go. Now imagine almost all of our fighters from our air craft carriers getting shot down. Now imagine a large majority of our ships being sunk. Now imagine looking in the sky and seeing a huge air force of jet fighters flying under the red sun. See, the Japanese might have had bad guns and horrible fighting techniques, but they're masters at building. They created a jet engine from one, ONE photograph of a german jet engine that Hitler sent in the middle of the war. The Japanese used it to build a giant fleet of jet fighters hiding in the mountains of Japan with places to take-off and land drilled right into the cave.

But of course, with the way you put it, we shouldn't have gone through D-Day at all. No, that's way too drastic. We should have sat down with Hitler, kiss his ass, and politely ask him not to kill 6 million Jews. And that whole Pearl Harbor thing, we were way out of line. We should have never occupied that island. We should have listened the first time and let Japan take over all of the Pacific they wanted. The Japanese were just following their manifesdestiny.

Ignorance is one of the worst things in people, so please save us from showing yours with comments like "Pop quiz: what country is the only one to actually use a nuclear weapon during wartime."

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Glad-I-Ate-Her

The Japanese were holding back (if I remember correctly) over 2000 Kamikazes. They were waiting for the invading fleet. Imagine what a disaster that would have been!!

Glad

__________________
I'm "Glad I Ate Her" because the payback was worth it!!

HarmlessRabbit

I'm imagining it, too bad it wasn't what happened. We had already bombed the hell out of Japan, destroying most of their major cities. In fact, the March 9-10 raids on tokyo killed 100,000 people. Your idea about "all our fighters being shot down" is ridiculous, we were successfully bombing the hell out of japan for months when we dropped the atomic bomb.

After dropping Little Boy, we dropped Fat Man just for show. Japan was already in surrender negotiations and there was no need to roast anyone else.

You're right, ignorance *is* one of the worst things in people, and, as they say, people who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

Dragonlich

HarmlessRabbit, perhaps one nuke would have sufficed. However, suppose the Japanese were to believe it was a one-shot weapon? Then the US would have had to drop the second one after all, with quite a large time between the two. This would have given the Japanese time to prepare (as far as you *can* prepare), and would seriously have weakened the psychological impact.

auswegian

You could compare 9-11 to Hiroshima in at least one level. Saying "we weren't at war" in regards to September 11 does not make sense when it is obvious from the rhetoric and public statements of people like Osama bin Laden that they considered themselves at war with the United States and its allies. Therefore, from the perspective of al-Qaeda, the 9-11 attacks could be just as justified as the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The US struck Japanese military capabilities in 1945, causing many civillian deaths, Al-Qaeda struck at US economic capabilities in 2001, causing many deaths. From a morally nuetral point of view, each is just as justified and appropriate as the other.

__________________
"Look, I'm pretty relaxed for a guy who just lost money on a rave. And who's currently speeding down the highway drunk off my tits. And I'm being chased by someone in a blue Corolla. Woohoo! I just ran a red light!"

BigGov

The Japanese had a huge fleet of jet planes UNDERGROUND. Many of the Japanese defenses and such were UNDERGROUND. And not only was it all underground, it was in the mountains where we didn't find out about it until after the war. Hell, we didn't even know Japanese were there until after the war.

And my idea about all of our fighters being shot down is pretty accurate. US fighter planes throughout the war had been below par compared to axis fighters. Jet fighters would have taken all planes to a new level on American fighters could not have competed. Bombers would also probably have a hard time making bombing runs when all their escorts are shot down.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

cliv

When we attacked Japan in 1945, we were actually in a shooting war with them since 1941. The attacks were an attempt to stop the war and save lives. When the human scum from Al-Qaeda attacked the US in 2001 they were at philosophical war with the US [i.e. non-Muslims must die]. Their intent was to start a war and end lives. The morality of the two events is not even close.

Lebell

No that is not true.

What is true is that Robert Oppenheimer was eventually ousted as head of Los Alamos in a fit of political in-fighting and was latter accused to be a communist (all while the real spies eventually passed the secrets of the A-Bomb to the Soviets through the Rosenbergs.)

This is also not true. After Nagasaki, they were busy assembling a third A-bomb (on Guam?) and were planning the next drop when Japan radioed their surrender.

Both corrections can be checked in the excellent Pullitzer Prize winning book,



The Making of the Atomic Bomb, by Richard Rhodes, $14 from Amazon.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Jasmar

How do the japanese ppl feel about our actions. Id say there opion is a lot more importent then ours