Xazy

Do you feel Pelosi should run and be the Minority leader. Considering how the people did vote, and the overwhelming change in the House, is it the smart decision.

Personally I am a conservative, I am a registered Democrat though since in NYC, primary election counts more. I personally really do dislike Pelosi and has told my representative that I am against any support for Pelosi to continue to lead. While I doubt my voice will be listened to, (I only mention these facts since I do not want anyone to think I am a true democrat at heart and to know where my viewpoint is coming from). I do wonder if by not changing leadership at all, if the Democrat party is making a mistake.

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

loquitur

whether she should run is one question, whether she should win is another. The first one is easy - of course she should run if she wants to. It's a free country, and anyone who wants to put herself forward for a position should be able to.

Whether she should win if she runs....... well, that's up to her caucus, isn't it? The carnage among Dem ranks in the last election leaves a caucus much more hard-core left, with members from safe seats, than in the previous Congress. So it's pretty plausible they'd want someone like her leading them. And why not? She's tough, she's smart, she's telegenic. It'll depend on what their goals are. If they want to be a plausible alternative to the Repubs, they won't choose her. If they want to just be the resistance, they will.

roachboy

i thought this might be interesting as a background element for the thread:

House Democrats could have same leadership team despite 60-seat loss

first off, its the conservative democrats that took the main pounding in the elections. to which i say--great. fuck em. what's the difference between a moderate democrat and a republican, really? the type of animal each pins on their lapel. that's it. ideologically, conservative democrats are as much a problem as are the republicans--nothing to say, nothing to offer beyond the same old tired bromides.

secondly, "hard-core left" loquitor? surely you jest. there is no left to speak of within the democratic party. seriously. get a grip. bernie sanders. a social democrat.

third is that it appears vague considerations about the television persona that the right media apparatus has constructed around nancy pelosi is of no consequence whatsoever in the question of the role she'll play in the next session of the house. it's about maintaining the ranks. which is probably a good thing for the legion of 70 year-olds who currently run the show. whether it's good for the non-republicans remains to be seen.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

I respect the process and I would respect a real up or down vote on Pelosi. Let's not have a backroom deal, if the party supports her, she should serve. Otherwise, let there be an open rejection of her style, her agenda, her leadership. My guess is that there will be a backroom deal in order to avoid a competitive vote. And, yes I feel the same about Republican leadership - these positions should not be gifts based on years of service or ability to raise money.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

loquitur

rb, by American standards, what's left of the Democratic caucus in the House is pretty leftish, and they have no real fear of being voted out because they are largely in safe seats.

So they'll have to make some decisions about what sort of face they want their party to present to the country. Should be interesting.

Since no party represents my views I suppose I can be detached about this, but I'm much more concerned about the country's well-being, and I hope people act in a sane way.

Rekna

Can you give us specifics as to why you dislike Pelosi? I'm curious if this is simply a branding by the RNC problem or does it have to do with her actual politics.

Xazy

I can talk about my issues with Pelosi but really it is a different topic, but quickly, I do disagree with how far left she is, I can agree on compromise but she has rarely offered any compromise. Which is why I feel that she is a bad choice now since I do not know if she will be willing and able to work with the new leadership in the house.

As well outside of policies, I have issues with how she handled corruption in the house. She on purpose left all the hearings on Rangel until after the elections. I know that is a political thing to keep the seat, and they will now try to get the case done and settled before Republicans take control, but it disgusts me.

I also hate the blame the past administration attitude she has. Everyone can always keep blaming someone, she has been an elected official since I believe 1987, she has been speaker since 2007, she is part of the past as well. I feel that all of them need to accept some blame and work looking forward and not backwards and stop trying to spin everything.

I can talk about individual policies, my opinion on having a health care bill that no one even fully understood voted on and shoved down the throats of Americans before it can be fully analyzed and evaluated. I wish they had slowly voted on piece by piece of the bill and slowly enacted it and see how the affects so they can adjust it.

But to me this thread is not about her issues, it is the fact that the People did speak this election and said overwhelmingly that they disagreed how the House of Representatives was doing their job. That is all under Nancy Pelosi leadership. Yes she was not voted out, but she should take it as a reproach on what the people want, this country is a Republic. And if the Democratic Party puts her back in some ways it may hurt them more. That is my personal thought.

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

roachboy

i dont think adequate information is out there about how the actually existing nancy pelosi has worked as speaker. instead you have conservative cartoon infotainment meant to help channel the faithful into yet another group hate, which conservatives seem to enjoy or at least find themselves drawn to enough so that the media apparatus that lets the right know what it is concerned about and the ways it is concerned about those things keep working the form. i think you'd do well to read more about how pelosi the actually existing human being has performed in the real-life office of speaker.

there was no overwhelming disagreement. there was a crumbling of the center. it was not a referendum on nancy pelosi, the last election, no matter what the bubbleheads on fox news might say. **for them** maybe it was. but who gives a shit what they think?

you can't play the game of whining about reference to the bush administration since it was the catastrophic policies of that administration---which built on 30 years of other republican style catastrophic policy--that landed us here in the first place. the obama administration has had to run from the outset to manage the disaster that the bush administration set into motion. the only reason the right bitches about saying as much is that their marketing people know---they know---that referencing historical reality, and so speaking coherently about the world as it is, means that the republicans would have to run on their record. if they had to do that they'd be fucked. so they pretend they're something else, so imaginary party of imaginary mavericks. but you have to have memory problems to buy that. and if you do buy that nonsense, it's little wonder that you find other conservative policies coherent---memory problems like that are not far from cognitive issues. you can figure out the rest of the demonstration. moves in a straight line.


again, you can't evaluate "leadership" if you've no clue what actually goes on.
well, maybe you can---but that'd mean we're talking conservatism here, a place in which reality is just a pesky addendum. mavericky maverick "vision" is what we want, right?
that the mavericky maverick "vision" is exactly the same old shit the right's been peddling for 30 years bought and paid for by the same old tired deep pockets...that's just that pesky reality stuff again. bad reality. bad. not big enough for "visionaries"

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Xazy

While I do dislike her leadership, her uncompromising role and willingness to just blame always the past administration never taking any responsibility... Let us say I can not evaluate leadership, does that mean the Democrat party going from 255 to 188 does the speaker get no blame or responsibility for that?

Will the constituents who voted all those out be happy with such a decision to keep her in? Does it not seem plausible that it will.

And while you may dislike the view and ideas on fox, they do have the highest ratings of news, they have a huge following so obviously they do represent a large group of peoples opinions. But to me this was not an issue of Fox news, rather just the idea as Obama put it, change, this election showed people were not happy with the current cast and made their voice clear.

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

roachboy

but that changes nothing about reality.
and the reality is that it is conservative economic thinking that got us into this economic fiasco.
and the **last** thing that'll get the united states out of it is more of the same nonsense.
think what you want about this need to reference the past--and so reference history, which isn't open to discussion--in order to talk about the reality that's shaped by it.

it's really hard to take conservative talking points seriously when they have to hide the real in order to get started.

the "blame the past" meme seems somewhere between worthless and schizophrenic.


added later: here's a squib about pelosi's interview this week with diane sawyer:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_778660.html

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

SecretMethod70

Not only do I think she should run, I think she should win. While Obama and Reid were being ineffectual, she was actually getting shit done in the House. The only reason she took the brunt of the damage in this election is because the House is also where it's easiest to change members. Without Pelosi's leadership, we would have gotten less done with even more concessions.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ASU2003

I will have to know who else is running.

But, the more the Republicans/Tea party complains about her, the better the job she must be doing.

aceventura3

She was the speaker when her party lost 60 seats in one election! How can that possibly be interpreted under any circumstance, by any standard as a good job?

How is this possibly about Republicans? They had the oval office (with a President with historic favorability ratings), a super majority in the Senate, complete control of the agenda in the House, and overwhelming support from independents and moderates - so I don't get any connection to conservatives at all.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

because, ace, part of being speaker of the house is actually managing workloads, getting bills to vote and that sort of thing. you know, the actual stuff that the actually existing speaker of the house actually does, and not this vaporous "leadership" horseshit that the rightwing press goes on and on about as if their arbitrary b-school-lite jargon corresponded to the world.

but hey, you obviously go in for that reality-optional thing.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

We have very different views on what leadership is. The captain of the Titanic may have had an impeccable record regarding his administrative duties, to which I would say, so what! I would rather be on a boat with a Captain who would avoid running into an iceberg. But that just me, to each his own.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tully Mars

Ace, you must have hated having Bush for a POTUS. Talking about running a ship aground.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Willravel

They should go left to find the next minority leader. Maurice Hinchey would be an interesting choice. Kucinich would be ballsy as fuck. Pelosi was a good choice at one time, but the right is going to target the minority leader whether he/she is "leftist" or not, so they might as well choose someone of consistent conviction who is unwilling to compromise with people who are demonstrably wrong. We need a progressive powerhouse, a liberal superhero. I like Nancy Pelosi, but she's not that person.

dogzilla

Hinchey makes an excellent example of a Congressman that should be prosecuted for his actions as noted here http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...voted-out.html

aceventura3

There is so much on this topic, I think you are just trying to bait me into going off topic. You know I supported Bush, most of his actions and shared many of his views.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tully Mars

Hey you're the one that brought up favoring a "Captain who would avoid running into an iceberg." I'd say leaving the country in economic free fall while fighting two unfunded wars was a pretty HUGE iceberg, no?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

SecretMethod70

Ace: Pelosi is not the chairman of the DCCC. Chris Van Hollen is - and he is stepping down, as he should.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

ring

Very off topic question. Are the quotes in dogzilla's post, colored black by him, or is this a new TFP thing? The dark text is difficult to read against TFP's green skin.

Sorry for the intrusion.

dogzilla

I'm using the desert sand skin and didn't intentionally color them. I just used the quote icon above the reply box to quote them.

SecretMethod70

Fixed the color for you

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

filtherton

It's pretty clear that there's a mostly standardized transparency used by various members of the right wing media to frame members of the opposition. I am highly confident that if Pelosi is replaced with someone else that transparency will be removed from her (maybe not removed, probably just copied), slightly modified, and then applied to her replacement. The problem isn't with Pelosi, but with the way she's portrayed to people who are predisposed to dislike her.

The continued relevance of Newt Gingrich is proof that the establishment right doesn't really care about congressional leadership as measurement of a politician's worth. Maybe Pelosi should retire and build a career out of mulling a run for president every four years.

dc_dux

Pelosi is an issue only because the conservative talking heads have made her an issue. I would suspect most voters have no idea who the majority or minority leaders are and even less about what they do.

Pelosi is very good at what she does -- pushing through legislation and raising money. If you measure success based on those criteria, the last session of the House was the most successful in a long term in terms of significant legislation passed....and because of that success, she is vilified even more by the right. And that extremist vilification only added to her success as a fundraiser.

The right is getting carried away blaming the loss of the House on Pelosi...but it does play to the emotion of the masses who live and die on every word of the Limbaughs and Becks.

---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------


The so-called stalling of the Rangel ethics trial is an example of the over-the-top rhetoric promoted by the Limbaugh and Becks and perpetuated by their uninformed followers. The trial, like any trial, takes prep time - interviewing potential witnesses, the discovery process, etc.

As to how she handled corruption in the House, one would think those on the right would have applauded the fact that she pushed through the most comprehensive ethics reform in recent years, by twisting the arms of many Democrats.

One of the best features of that ethics reform was the creation of a quasi-independent Office of Congressional Ethics so that the members of Congress themselves cant full control and manipulate the process. Boehner has indicated that he is open to disbanding the OCE.

Where was the outrage from the right when not one Republican supported the creation of the OCE?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Xazy

As someone from NY, I hate how Rangel for example was not tried before the election, how all ethics cases got pushed until after the election. It was a political move and an incorrect one in my book. And when the right does something like that I am equally upset.

The craziest part of it all is that despite all Rangel does he still gets elected.

But to me this was not about her values to me I think Pelosi politically should step aside just because it may seem as a concession to the people who voted out the Democrats saying hey we understand and are willing to change. You can still do same old same old, but my initial concept was is it a smart idea for her to remain.

And you can say hey we don't understand speakers job, personally I am friends with the speaker of the assembly in NY, I do. I also know the speaker will never get favorable media coverage, again I grasp that. One of the speakers jobs is to take all the heat. But it also means they should take the punishment, it comes with the position.

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

dc_dux

Given that the Ethics Committee does not release the details of its deliberations, you are jumping to conclusions that the postponement was political and not giving "due process" to the defendant.

Of course, politics plays a role, but dont dismiss the rights of the accused (to prepare a defense) so lightly.

---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 AM ----------

BTE, Maxine Waters would not be facing an ethics trial if not for the OCE that Pelosi pushed through, despite the fact that many in her own party did not like it (and it had no Republican support).

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Xazy

I am not, but some of these charges stem back to 2008, if the process is over 2 years long for a trial, then there are even larger issues. And I say don't dismiss the political play of waiting until after the trial.

__________________
Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.

aceventura3

No, I don't see it the way you do.

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:33 PM ----------

Not my point.

I think Obama and Congress failed to listen to the American people and they failed to make the case for their agenda. I see this as a failure in leadership, a failure at the top. I do understand that my opinion has no importance on this issue.

---------- Post added at 05:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

Are you saying that those who don't like Pelosi are more effective than she is? If so, isn't that a problem? Wouldn't you want someone who can not only over come this problem, but be able to present the opposition in a unfavorable way.

Isn't national politics for adult participation? Is the "they are playing unfair" argument a worthy response? Is Pelosi less "political" than her opposition on the right?

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

I don't think pushing through bad legislation is doing a very good job? Isn't there concern that as she pushed bad legislation she hurt her party and that is the reason many middle of the road Democrats lost their seat in the House?

Would she stop helping her party raise money, if not in leadership? How much money did she raise for Republicans? I remember a lot of material using the stop Obama/Pelosi agenda being used in commercials and mailers.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Ace, you misread me. I said that any Pelosi replacement would be subject to the same insipid, manufactured criticisms that she has. So using those manufactured criticisms as a justification for replacing her is dumb because they don't actually have anything to do with her specifically (which isn't to say they haven't been personalized to fit her).

Tully Mars

I would think Bush's spending and passing TARP would make most conservatives feel much different then you Ace. But you're entitled to your opinion of the man.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dc_dux

What bad legislation?

The comprehensive ethics reform - her first order business as Speaker in 07 (that Boehner may gut)? The pay equity for women act? The credit card bill of rights act? The financial reform act regulating Wall Street? The campaign finance reform (that Republicans killed in the Senate).

So you must mean the bi-partisan TARP legislation that Bush signed. Or health care reform that most Americans, while perhaps not liking all of it (based on the massive misinformation campaign) dont want repealed, or the stimulus, which many Congressional Republicans opposed while bragging at home about bringing jobs to their state/district (with stimulus money).

For most Americans, the election was about the economy. Pelosi was added into the mix because it sells.

Hell, nearly 40% of Americans cant even name the sitting Vice President (recent poll). So do you really think they know anything about Pelosi other than what they hear on Limbaugh/Beck.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I think you misread me. If manufactured criticisms is a part of the game, and i think it is. She failed to overcome any manufactured criticisms. There may be people who can. If I had a vote, it would go to someone who can win at the game.

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:27 PM ----------

I think Bush's actions with TARP at the end of his administration were symbolic. No person will ever persuade me that about $700 billion was going to save the financial sector. More unbelievable is the thought that amount would save the economy. Symbolic gestures from leaders is often needed to inject confidence, however, Obama immediately did the opposite time 1,000.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

I'm sorry, but that's one of the most ridiculous criterions for choosing a leader that I've ever seen. And how does one "overcome" partisan messaging from a cable news network.

aceventura3

There are many threads on specific issues and legislation. The biggest was health-care reform.

Much of the above contributed to our current economic condition, and none of the above in the minds of voters addressed unemployment.

No.

My premiums are going up by 13% next year. I only have the choice of one carrier with a competitive premium, my current one, given my circumstance. This hybrid compromised legislation, needs to be fixed - she knew that, but passed it anyway. Why not get it right? Why not fight for single payer and get the votes if that is what she wanted? Why sellout with bad legislation? Was it just to push it through? Well that worked well, didn't it.

No doubt that politicians are political. But the stimulus has not worked. Again, bad legislation with inadequate controls.

Isn't that a problem? Why have a speaker or a party leader who the opposition is able to effectively trash in ads? What is the point of leadership in your mind?

The anti-Pelosi message worked. I live in NC, in the months prior to the election, almost every political conversation I had ultimately included some comment on Pelosi being a San Francisco liberal not understanding real American values (I am paraphrasing the comments of many people), so your suggestion that Americans don't get it, suggests to me that perhaps it is you who does not get it. Nothing personal, but perhaps there is a need for DC types to spend time outside of DC.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

I travel a fair amount in my job and spend lots of time outside of DC.

And I encounter more rigid ideologues outside of DC than inside the beltway. not to mention, more people who are guided by what they want to read and hear (again, probably a vast majority of those who cant name the VP)

And those ideologues always ignore the facts when the facts are counter to their ideology.

Nothing personal, but your posts speak for themselves.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

It is clearly another Mars/Venus thing. If involved in a "street fight" (a contest where people may hit below the belt and when the consequences of taking actions that may break conventional rules can not be reversed), you want to be the person who wins, period. Sure, I would love to make "nice, nice", with opponents - but if I get sucker punched, its my fault and I gotta live with the broken nose. That is how I see things, perhaps you don't. the world has both types of people, and I understand why they may not understand each other.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

I do have to laugh at the notion of "real American values."

Why not just admit that you dont like her because she challenges your rigid ideology.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

How about the fact that the anti-Pelosi message worked? You seem to suggest that it did not, are you ignoring a fact? Or, do we agree the anti-Pelosi message worked? If we agree do you understand why it worked? I do, and it had very little to do with Beck/Rush/Hannity/etc.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

Come to NC and talk to some folks outside of Charlotte, Raleigh/Durham. I doubt you can imagine the level of outrage.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."