israeli navy kills gaza activists - Page 8 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

hiredgun · 06-10-2010, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

But the issue is one of legitimacy. So the fact that it happened in international waters is certainly relevant. For be it as it may regarding other blockades, it is still a violation of international law.

[...]

Sure, had it happened inside Israeli waters the disproportionate use of force would still be an issue, but it would be a different matter altogether.

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's not quite correct. The enforcement of a blockade in international waters is legal by longstanding precedent.

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters

Quote:

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say.

The ship had certainly declared that it was on the way to Gaza and intended to break the blockade.

So the location of the incident is irrelevant; what's relevant is the legitimacy of the blockade (whether Israel has the right to impose it, whether Gaza counts as a belligerent territory), and of course its utility (whether or not Israel has the right, does this course of action make any sense?)

If the blockade is legitimate, then it doesn't matter where it happened - Israel had a right to board the ships.
If it is illegitimate, then it doesn't matter where it happened - Israel had no right to board the ships.

dippin · 06-10-2010, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid that's not quite correct. The enforcement of a blockade in international waters is legal by longstanding precedent.

Q&A: Is Israel's naval blockade of Gaza legal? | Reuters

The ship had certainly declared that it was on the way to Gaza and intended to break the blockade.

So the location of the incident is irrelevant; what's relevant is the legitimacy of the blockade (whether Israel has the right to impose it, whether Gaza counts as a belligerent territory), and of course its utility (whether or not Israel has the right, does this course of action make any sense?)

If the blockade is legitimate, then it doesn't matter where it happened - Israel had a right to board the ships.
If it is illegitimate, then it doesn't matter where it happened - Israel had no right to board the ships.

The "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea:"

International Humanitarian Law - San Remo Manual 1994

relevant passages:

Quote:

"39. Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between civilians or other protected persons and combatants and between civilian or exempt objects and military objectives.

40. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.

41. Attacks shall be limited strictly to military objectives. Merchant vessels and civil aircraft are civilian objects unless they are military objectives in accordance with the principles and rules set forth in this document.

42. In addition to any specific prohibitions binding upon the parties to a conflict, it is forbidden to employ methods or means of warfare which:

(a) are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering; or
(b) are indiscriminate, in that:
(i) they are not, or cannot be, directed against a specific military objective; or
(ii) their effects cannot be limited as required by international law as reflected in this document."

47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:

(a) hospital ships;
(b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports;
(c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:
(i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war;
(ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;
(d) vessels engaged in transporting cultural property under special protection;
(e) passenger vessels when engaged only in carrying civilian passengers;
(f) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientifc or philanthropic missions, vessels collecting scientific data of likely military applications are not protected;
(g) small coastal fishing vessels and small boats engaged in local coastal trade, but they are subject to the regulations of a belligerent naval commander operating in the area and to inspection;
(h) vessels designated or adapted exclusively for responding to pollution incidents in the marine environment;
(i) vessels which have surrendered;
(j) life rafts and life boats.

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

68. Any attack on these vessels is subject to the basic rules in paragraphs 38-46.

69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it.

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

But, most importantly:

"118. In exercising their legal rights in an international armed conflict at sea, belligerent warships and military aircraft have a right to visit and search merchant vessels outside neutral waters where there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that they are subject to capture."

"146. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they are engaged in any of the activities referred to in paragraph 67 or if it is determined as a result of visit and search or by other means, that they:

(a) are carrying contraband;
(b) are on a voyage especially undertaken with a view to the transport of individual passengers who are embodied in the armed forces of the enemy;
(c) are operating directly under enemy control, orders, charter, employment or direction;
(d) present irregular or fraudulent documents, lack necessary documents, or destroy, deface or conceal documents;
(e) are violating regulations established by a belligerent within the immediate area of naval operations; or
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade.

Capture of a neutral merchant vessel is exercised by taking such vessel as prize for adjudication.

147. Goods on board neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture only if they are contraband.

148. Contraband is defined as goods which are ultimately destined for territory under the control of the enemy and which may be susceptible for use in armed conflict."

So, first things first. There is the question of whether this is a conflict recognized by international law, as Gaza is not an independent state. But even if we consider this to be a legitimate conflict, there is the question of the legality of the blockade.

But even if we grant that the blockade is legal (highly doubtful), there is still the matter that the ship was sailing under a neutral flag. As the San Remo document makes clear, neutral ships can only be stopped and searched in non-neutral waters.

And this is all talking about this specific document. This document does not overrule the convention of the high seas, which clearly states that:

Quote:

1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters a
foreign merchant ship on the high seas is not justified in boarding her unless there is reasonable ground for
suspecting:
(a) That the ship is engaged in piracy; or
(b) That the ship is engaged in the slave trade; or
(c) That though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality
as the warship.

hiredgun · 06-10-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

dippin · 06-10-2010, 08:07 PM

You are only breaching a blockade once you are not on neutral waters anymore.

Shadowex3 · 06-10-2010, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

It's pretty much impossible to have a rational conversation about things when both sides are simulateously right and wrong.

This is why I've given up on a lot of Israel/Palestine arguments. You've got to keep up with the PA, Hamas, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and all of the extra third parties like the IHH*.

The problem outside is that too many people desperately want for things to be simple, they can't accept that it's possible for this to just be a crapsack situation where both side has legitimate beefs with the other and one side screwing up doesn't automatically negate that side's arguments. Israel running a crappy blockade doesn't negate their argument that it's utterly wrong for Hamas to be launching craptons of rockets and mortars with civilians as shields, and Hamas being hellbent on genocide doesn't make Israel's blockade any less stupid for restricting things it has no reason to. A whole bunch of people think it DOES though, and that's a problem.

*Banned from Turkey's 1999 relief efforts: "Ultimately, Turkey was forced to ban the IHH from participating in earthquake aid efforts because it was counted among several “fundamentalist organizations” operating “secret bank accounts” that were refusing to allow local authorities to oversee the distribution of their aid resources"
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publicat...2006-7.web.pdf

hiredgun · 06-10-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

You are only breaching a blockade once you are not on neutral waters anymore.

Except that customarily no one has interpreted this in the way that you are suggesting, and custom is the most important determinant of international law. That's all I've got on that subject.

Idyllic · 06-11-2010, 06:33 AM

Interesting info I just stumbled on. (No, I do not imply anything with that statement) This quoted material has IDF written all over it (and it is apparent how many of you feel about the IDF), I wasn't there so I can't confirm or deny it's validity, but I find it interesting to read, as well the next story after this one which talks about the planned summer celebrations for the Palestinian/Gazan children in which there appears to have been attacks by hamas (as per this story) in an attempt to thwart the celebrations. These issues surrounding the tyrannical ideologies of hamas are what I am looking at and for. Nothing I am saying here, or in my prior posts, states that I justify the suffering of any peoples, especially innocent citizens caught between the power hungry and self-righteousness of both parties involved this war. I am merely trying to understand the mentalities involved in such intense hatred, and I still keep coming back to base intolerance in many religious/ideological views. I am not being specific here or exclusive as all religious/ideological views that would incite the destruction of other human-beings based on ones own personal beliefs where violence is justified as a means to an end, is to me, anti-humane, tyrannous and the root of all mankind’s most atrocious forms of corruption.

Quote:

Report "No humanitarian aid on "humanitarian" MAvi Marmara ship"

The European-Israeli Missing Peace organization claims that IDF Spokesman confirms that IDF has found only personal effects and no humanitarian aid of any kind on the Turkish ship, Mavi Marmara, that was boarded by Shayetet 13. Below is the full text of their press release and accompanying documentation.

Press release Jerusalem June 9 2010

Turkish Ship Mavi Marmara did not have any humanitarian cargo aboard
ATTACHED FULL MP REPORT ABOUT THE CARGO OF THE "HUMANITARIAN FLOTILLA"

A member of our Missing Peace team who was yesterday at the Tzrifin IDF base where part of the cargo of the Free Gaza ships is stored, reported the following to our office,

She confirmed that the head of the logistics department of the Israeli Defense Ministry informed those present, that there was no humanitarian aid (cargo) on the Mavi Marmara. The logistics department is in charge with unloading and repacking the humanitarian aid. She said that only money and personal belongings were found on the ship. Attached you will find a full report with a breakdown of the cargo found on the flotilla ships. The information in this report is confirmed by an Israeli official.

Confirmation details can be obtained at our office untill 12.00 PM and from tomorrow 7.30 AM Israeli time

Yochanan Visser Director Missing Peace Office

Missing Peace (beta) | Temporary website for Missing Peace

Humanitarian aid on the Flotilla

On June 7 2010 the Israeli Defense Ministry gave a tour for the media at the Tzrifin army base. A member of Missing Peace joined the tour which was dealing with the humanitarian aid found on one of the flotilla ships. The Defense Ministry has unloaded and stored the cargo of the ships on this army base after Hamas refused to allow the goods into Gaza

In this report we like to focus on the humanitarian aid issue. This is something that seems to have gotten "lost" in the midst of the discussions about the Mavi Marmara, the Turkish Ship were nine people were killed in a fight between a terrorist militia of the Turkish IHH and the IDF.

The tour at Tzrifin: Participating in the tour were many local journalists, as well as foreign journalists such as FOX news Walla, and Swiss Radio.

After a security briefing the journalists got into their cars and drove in a convoy deep into the army base. Once they had parked and gotten out of the cars they faced a huge open area with lots of objects and equipment on the right side. On the left side was a huge closed storage area. The journalists were briefed by the head of the Logistical Department from the Defense Ministry, who is in charge of the flotilla cargo. As of June 7 all the equipment and things stored in Tzrifin were from only from one of the flotilla ships, named "Defne Y". Meanwhile the unloading of the other ships has been almost completed.

The Defense Ministry spokesman told the reporters that the Ashdod port is under jurisdiction of the Defense Ministry. At the time they had unloaded 1 out of 3 flotilla ships, and loaded 45 trucks with humanitarian aid

Of these trucks, 8 were sent to the Kerem Shalom crossing, and the rest of the trucks were unloaded in Tzrifin. At the Kerem Shalom crossing they unloaded 300 electric wheel-chairs. Through this crossing 80-100 trucks transfer humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip on a daily basis. The cargo with the wheel-chairs is waiting to be picked up by whoever is taking responsibility for it. So far no one claims responsibility and it's still waiting in storage

The normal modus operandi is that COGAT is in touch with the Palestinian Authority Civil Committee, which sits in Gaza, and with various international organizations (UN, Red Cross etc.). Those organizations coordinate who will pick up the aid. If for example the aid is for special humanitarian aid projects of the UNRWA, then UNRWA representatives are responsible for going to the crossing and picking up the aid. If it's for private PA businesses, then the PA is responsible for the picking up of the goods. Israel, the PA and International organizations are in constant contact and cooperation.

The Aid

Among the aid are: electric wheel chairs, medical equipment (medicines, hospital equipment: beds and mattresses [60 tons]), clothing, carpets, toys, school bags, playground equipment, cement, iron, and other construction materials.

A breakdown of the cargo found on the ships shows that of the six ships of the flotilla only three had humanitarian aid aboard:

Gaza ship: building materials, cement, iron – The ship has not been fully unloaded.

Sofi ship: building materials, iron

Defne Y ship: clothing, humanitarian aid (roughly 40 trucks worth), and games, building materials, wheelchairs.

The "Marmara": carried only passengers and their personal belongings. Many passengers carried large sums of money on their body. There was no Humanitarian aid on this ship.

The other two ships did not carry humanitarian aid as well

The humanitarian aid on all the ships was not packaged and not placed on the ship in an organized way, as one would expect from an organized humanitarian aid cargo. Everything was in individual units thrown on to a pile on the ships. This was not only unsafe, but it also caused a lot of damage to the objects, since the weight crushed a lot of things and since a lot of the things were just thrown on board. To deal with the cargo on the ships, here are the stages that it must undergo by Israel:

1. Israel scans all the cargo and sifts out the humanitarian aid. The aid is then placed on trucks.

2. The aid goes through x-ray machines to see that everything is indeed safe.

3. Since nothing was packaged and organized, Israel did this.

This entire procedure costs a lot of time and a lot of money.

The handling of the aid

When asked how many tons of aid was on all the ships, the spokesman said they don't know yet, since the only way one can weigh something is, if it's packaged, compressed and sealed. He showed a stack of wood boxes with labels and said that this was done by Israel and if all the aid would have been like this then they could have easily weighed it all and said how many tons of aid there is.

In regards to the story about the electric wheel-chairs, Hamas claims that Israel took out all the wheel-chair batteries so that they can't be used by the people. The spokesman said that first of all, Hamas can't know what Israel is doing because they are not allowing the aid into the Strip. Secondly, one needs to take out the batteries from the wheel chairs because if they are stored for a long time in the heat with the batteries, the batteries get ruined. He then took the journalists to the inside storage space, which is kept cool. There all the batteries were neatly placed in boxes all lined up. He said that the minute they will get a green light from Gaza, Israel can transfer everything into the Strip. Then the batteries will be transferred together with the chairs.

The batteries for the electric wheel chairs are gel batteries. Hamas says that Israel does not allow the entry of batteries into the Gaza Strip. Asked what the problem is with batteries the spokesman said the problem is not with gel but with liquid batteries. This is because 1 liter of this battery liquid can produce 50 kilos of nitroglycerin which is an active ingredient in the manufacture of explosives, specifically dynamite.

Expired and worn goods

Medicine: Out of the 400 tons of humanitarian aid on the ship only about 4 tons was medicine and medical equipment. A Japanese reporter who visits Gaza regularly, said that what is needed in Gaza is hospital/medical equipment and medicine. He said that if the flotilla would have been really concerned about what is needed in Gaza, they would have made sure to send more medical things. Furthermore, most of the medicine was expired. Medicines were shown whose expiration date was Sept. 2009. The medicines were stored in a separate cooled in-door storage space.

Clothing and shoes: most of the clothes and shoes were so worn that they cannot be used. Many of the shoes had holes and the shoe soles were half broken; many of the clothes were torn. They were private donations and were just thrown on to the ship.

Only 1/3 of the ship's cargo was new equipment.

Cement and other construction materials: all the construction materials on the ships are waiting for project approvals in the Gaza Strip. The minute a specific humanitarian project is approved the construction material is allowed into the Strip. For example 151 housing units of the UNRWA have been approved and construction material will be transferred for it.

Hamas rejects the Humanitarian Aid
Hamas has rejected the transfer of the humanitarian aid from the flotilla into the Gaza Strip. The first reason is that it does not want it to pass through Israel. The second reason is that it says it is waiting for Turkey to decide for who the aid was meant. The third reason is that they want to have everything found on the ships.

Politics and not humanitarian action
Israel is in contact with the PA and with International authorities and is waiting to hear from them how to proceed. Yesterday the Japanese reporter was in Gaza to find out exactly who these international authorities are. He spoke with the PA civil-committee about this issue. They said that it is the responsibility of UNRWA. Then he called UNRWA and he was told that they are not in contact with Israel and that it is not in their power to decide, but that it is the responsibility of UNSCO.

UNRWA also said that they received a message from Hamas telling them that they should not allow any humanitarian aid from the flotilla to enter the Gaza Strip. UNSCO also said that they are not in charge of the flotilla aid. They said that UNRWA deals with it, when confronted with the UNRWA reference to them, the man on the phone laughed and said this is not the case.

Next was COGAT, they first refused to give specific names and said "you can imagine who these international authorities are". When pressed they said they are in touch with UNRWA, the Red Cross and "other powerful players such as the USA", The COGAT official did not want to get more specific because he did not want to blame any particular organization until things are sorted out. The International Red Cross in Gaza told that they have their own projects and bring in their own aid.

They said they have nothing to do with the flotilla. When asked if they have met with Hamas about the flotilla, IRC said that they have had discussions with Hamas who told them not to accept any of the aid. Hamas declared that they have conditions that they want to have met before allowing the humanitarian aid to enter the Strip.

The Japanese journalist, who is personally familiar with Gaza and with Hamas, said that this whole incident has turned from a humanitarian into a political issue. He said that if there is a real need for humanitarian aid in Gaza then everyone would work quickly to allow the entry of the aid into the Strip. Furthermore he said that if in Africa they need food, no one waits to deliver it.

source: Middle East Analysis

Quote:

Gaza's boys and girls come out to play

The UN summer games offer the blockaded territory's children a rare chance of fun. But a terrifying warning from hardliners has cast a shadow over this year's event

By Donald Macintyre in Gaza City

Thursday, 10 June 2010

Palestinian children at last year's UN summer games in Gaza

Palestinian children at last year's UN summer games in Gaza

London 2012 it isn't. But on Sunday a relay of 50 schoolchildren bearing an Olympic-style torch will start from Deir el Balah Elementary Boy's School in central Gaza on the 17km road journey along the Mediterranean coast to the UN compound in Gaza City. There, they will light a flame, less to commemorate the notorious white phosphorus bombardment which razed the main warehouse here during Israel's military offensive in January 2009, than to herald the start of something altogether more cheerful: the fourth annual summer games.

Throughout the summer a total of 250,000 children will be brought together every day – girls and boys in separate groups in deference to Gaza's traditionally conservative culture – for a fortnight by the UN Refugee agency UNRWA for something that John Ging, its Gaza Operations Director, points out is all-too rare in Gaza: "a moment of childhood and happiness".

The children of all ages will enjoy diverse supervised activities including drama, traditional dances like Dabka, swimming, sandcastle building, bouncy castles, volleyball, football, painting and origami. Having last year won a certified Guinness World Record for the most people flying kites at one time, the children will next month attempt another: the largest number – probably more than 6,000 – to bounce basketballs simultaneously.

A few days after a gang of around 25 masked and armed men scorched and vandalised one of 35 camps being prepared for the games, John Ging, Operations Director of UNRWA here, was visited by three 15-year-old girls from Rimal Preparatory School. All three were appalled at the attack which wrought some $20,000 worth of damage and included delivery of an ominously menacing message for Mr Ging himself. The girls' appeal was simple: please don't cancel the games because of what happened.

Mr Ging was touched – and quick to reassure them. Having devised the games four years ago, he told the girls he was not about to abandon them now. As one of the girls, Amani Sansour, later explained in articulate English: "When we met Mr John he told us he will never stop the project. We are very happy that the summer games will not be stopped. It's a big chance for children to have fun and happiness in their lives, and their human rights. They can practise their hobbies and do things like swimming. This is especially good for girls who can't go to swim together without their parents, according to the traditional culture here. Life is very hard here for boys and girls but harder for girls."

For Amani the extremists who carried out the May attack on the beach site south of Gaza City "don't work for our interests. They want us to stay at home". Her friend, Sawsan Kamel, agreed. "They are a minority," she said. "They don't represent our opinions." And for a third, Fatima Said – who having thought the games were only suitable for young children, changed her mind after hearing a talk about the range of activities – "what is important is that this year the games will not only be for refugees", the families of those who fled or were forced out of their homes in what is now Israel during the 1948 war and are UNRWA's direct responsibility, "but as open to as many people as they possibly can be".

With the world belatedly waking up to the impact of the three-year economic blockade of Gaza after last week's lethal commando raid on a pro-Palestinian flotilla, the summer games may seem like a footnote. But for UNRWA, both their undoubted importance to Gaza's parents and children, and the obstacles on the way to Sunday's launch, flow from the unique conditions of the Strip.

Mr Ging said after last month's attack that he would not be intimidated into forsaking the "huge responsibility to children that are suffering physically and psychologically in very difficult circumstances to provide them with a high quality recreation programme over the summer".

And he leaves no doubt as to what he means by the circumstances: "Blockade, occupation, no legitimate economy, a black market economy which is getting stronger and stronger, no prospect of getting a job." Not to mention undrinkable tap water, malfunctioning sewage and a ban on building materials which stops UNRWA constructing the 100 schools needed to end a near-universal two shift system in the existing ones. Circumstances which, he says, "cumulatively are quite unbearable for the entire population".

Ostensibly, it was exactly because girls like the three from Rimal prep would be taking part that the attack was launched in the first place. The attackers, who arrived at around 2.30am at the beachside camp south of Gaza City, handcuffed and hit the security guard Ibrahim Eliwa; took his mobile phone and ID card; and made him kneel with his face forward while they burned 20 plastic water tanks and slashed thousands of square feet of plastic and canvas sheeting.

When, before leaving, they tucked an envelope into Mr Eliwa's jacket pocket, it contained not only the ID card but a letter addressed to Mr Ging and two of his senior Palestinian staff declaring in Arabic: "We were shocked when we heard about establishing beach locations for girls at the age of puberty and adolescence aiming to attack Muslims' honour and morality. You have to know that we will give away our blood and life but we won't let this happen and will not let you malicious people beat us. So you either leave your plans or wait for your destiny." Just to reinforce the point, the gang also left three bullets behind for Mr Ging.

Mr Eliwa says the men were dressed in black, had radios, and were armed with AK-47s. He said he told the – Hamas-run – police that he thought the attackers were from Hamas. But whoever they were, it seems that Hamas security personnel, who at night mount a series of efficient checkpoints across the Strip, did not prevent their free passage to the camp. The Hamas de facto government condemned the attack publicly and police arrested an unspecified number of men for questioning, but have announced that anyone has been subsequently charged. However, there have been no repeats of the attack.

Major Ayman al Batniji, the police spokesman, claimed there were a number of groups capable of carrying it out. Acknowledging that "we have never witnessed any violations of Islamic law or custom" in the UN summer games. "So far we cannot point the finger at Hamas or any other faction," he said. And why had the police prevented civil society activists and members of the public subsequently protesting the attack from reaching the camp? "It was a political decision, not a police decision," the policeman explained. "Sometimes the police have to carry out political decisions they oppose."

In fact, the attack may also testify – however chillingly – to the popularity of the games. As a well organised, secular alternative, the summer games attract a much bigger attendance than parallel camps run by Hamas itself, that include Koranic instruction and military-style exercises.

Which may be why the oversubscribed UN games – Mr Ging says he could accommodate another 100,000 children if he had the funding – have been strongly, if verbally, attacked by some prominent Hamas figures, though not by the de facto government, which Mr Ging says has been "very careful" not to violate UNRWA's integrity. But Mr Ging has long argued that extremist trends in Gaza are the product of Gaza's isolation, "born of, but not justified by" circumstances that are "a breeding ground for a mindset which is negative, despairing, destructive, increasingly intolerant and will be more and more violent".

Which is why UNRWA schools teach "that there is no justification for violence and intolerance", seeks to instil shared universal values: respect, discipline, open-mindedness, tolerance and the understanding it is "illegal and wrong in every dimension" to fire rockets; and tries to elevate Gandhi, Mandela and Martin Luther King, as icons of the fight for human rights through "responsible behaviour".

Mr Ging acknowledges that some in Gaza "disagree with us on this". But he is convinced that the overwhelming "silent majority" of Gaza parents do not, and instead share those core universal values "that define us as civilised".

The flood of support to UNRWA from parents wanting the games to go ahead suggests he is right.

Mr Ging argues the message from Gaza is not only the misery and hardship inflicted by "the collective sanction of an innocent population" important though that is. It is also that "all is not bad here, all is not negative". For him the collective basketball dribbling and kite flying is a symbol of something bigger.

"There's a great future if we can turn the potential in a positive direction... the kids here are hugely talented and each world record achieved in these very difficult circumstances is evidence of that. So let's change the circumstances and let a thousand flowers bloom. Invest in these very talented kids and you won't be disappointed by the product."

UNRWA asked The Independent to change the names of the Rimal girls because of the sensitivities of their situation

source: Gaza's boys and girls come out to play - Middle East, World - The Independent

powerclown · 06-11-2010, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

If you look at the list of goods restricted, it is obvious for anyone with eyes to see - really, truly obvious, and I dare you to say otherwise - that a primary purpose of the blockade (along with keeping out weapons) is to deprive the Gazan population as political leverage. Make of this whatever you will. Many sanctions regimes work this way, and sometimes they are preferable to the alternatives. But please do not deny it or offer 'weapons' as a misdirection.

And why not? If elections are held as a means of representing the wishes of the citizenry, the choice of Hamas wasn't exactly the most inspired. What kind of backward thinking does it take to elect a 'government' that you know is incapable of competent governance, is for the destruction of Israel, and is really only capable of bringing further pain and suffering to Gaza? And why wouldn't you as a concerned, responsible citizen who just voted in Hamas speak out against them after they started murdering members of other palestinian political parties??

dippin · 06-11-2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hiredgun

Except that customarily no one has interpreted this in the way that you are suggesting, and custom is the most important determinant of international law. That's all I've got on that subject.

And what is your source for that? Surely the lawyers interviewed in the reuters story aren't "everyone." I can point to several other lawyers who disagree.

And the catch is, for any of the laws of blockades to be valid, this has to be an international armed conflict, which means Hamas is a part of the war, and that therefore they are entitled to the protections of the Geneva convention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

And why not? If elections are held as a means of representing the wishes of the citizenry, the choice of Hamas wasn't exactly the most inspired. What kind of backward thinking does it take to elect a 'government' that you know is incapable of competent governance, is for the destruction of Israel, and is really only capable of bringing further pain and suffering to Gaza? And why wouldn't you as a concerned, responsible citizen who just voted in Hamas speak out against them after they started murdering members of other palestinian political parties??

Israel has certainly done it's share to make Hamas popular. It has "rewarded" the Palestinian Authority's willingness to negotiate and cease attacks with the fastest expansion of settlements in recent history, even as they withdrew from Gaza under Hamas' attacks. And then with the blockade, the population is heavily dependent on the services and contraband that hamas provides.

At the end of the day, the situation is so complicated because the people who can derail negotiations are also the ones profiting the most from the status quo.

roachboy · 06-11-2010, 09:10 AM

powerclown: it's always a real delight to read your kach party a hair's breadth from racist intepretations of things to do with palestine.

it's all about the breadth of that hair.

so how about you knock off the "they're too stupid to govern themselves" and "they can't think rationally or make rational choices" horseshit, hmm?

Idyllic · 06-11-2010, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

At the end of the day, the situation is so complicated because the people who can derail negotiations are also the ones profiting the most from the status quo.

Who exactly is profiting from this blockade and how are they profiting from it?

I am not sure I understand how anyone is profiting from this blockade except to think that hamas is suffering from it, at least this is what is supposed to be occurring, and I recognize that part of the blockade is an attempt to turn the Palestinian/Gazan citizens against hamas, (that logic befuddles my mind, like choke the kid til it hates the babysitter kinda logic {oversimplified}), but either way, who is profiting?

dippin · 06-11-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Who exactly is profiting from this blockade and how are they profiting from it?

I am not sure I understand how anyone is profiting from this blockade except to think that hamas is suffering from it, at least this is what is supposed to be occurring, and I recognize that part of the blockade is an attempt to turn the Palestinian/Gazan citizens against hamas, (that logic befuddles my mind, like choke the kid til it hates the babysitter kinda logic {oversimplified}), but either way, who is profiting?

The Israeli producers and farmers who have lobbied successfully to have their goods be allowed through the blockade? The intermediaries in Israel, since everything that goes into gaza from other countries has to be imported into Israel, and then re exported into Gaza? The people in gaza who handle the contraband?

This has been discussed in this thread already.

Idyllic · 06-11-2010, 10:00 AM

Doesn't most of what is considered aid get paid for via the people of the world and or the Israelis and or donations from this group or that group or, etc..... Sure the farmers get paid, but they would get paid to not farm either way, just thinking their system may be some what akin to U.S. farmers. So it seems to me in reality allowing the Palestinian/Gazans to govern themselves and make their own money, food, exports would be more beneficial for everyone involved (if we could just minus the bombings from hamas), just my sidewards thinking I guess? As I said, I don't see anyone profiting from this war, except maybe in some sick warped way, hamas in continuing to tyrannize the citizens of Gaza and completely discredit the nation of Israel, but that is their goal anyways, isn't it?

dippin · 06-11-2010, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Doesn't most of what is considered aid get paid for via the people of the world and or the Israelis and or donations from this group or that group or, etc..... Sure the farmers get paid, but they would get paid to not farm either way, just thinking their system may be some what akin to U.S. farmers. So it seems to me in reality allowing the Palestinian/Gazans to govern themselves and make their own money, food, exports would be more beneficial for everyone involved (if we could just minus the bombings from hamas), just my sidewards thinking I guess? As I said, I don't see anyone profiting from this war, except maybe in some sick warped way, hamas in continuing to tyrannize the citizens of Gaza and completely discredit the nation of Israel, but that is their goal anyways, isn't it?

Except I am not talking about aid. People still buy and sell things in Gaza, and given the blockade of basic materials, most of that stuff goes through Israel.

A liter of corn oil costs the equivalent of 7 US dollars in Gaza. Where do you think the excess profits are ending up?

Xylaniel · 06-11-2010, 04:47 PM

What needs to be done is to implement a REAL solution to prevent terrible events like this from ever happening again. This is an interesting suggestion I read by Amitakh Stanford. The only chance for peace is a two state solution. Both the Palestinian state and the Israeli state need to have a seaport and continuous borders. The neighbouring muslim nations should think about granting some land to the Palestinians. However, now we are getting to the crucial part, which is Jerusalem. Jerusalem needs to be either wholly in Palestine or wholly in Israel. A "Berlin Wall" will not work, there would be continued friction and threats of war. Both Israelis and Palestinians are religious, so they should be open to an unconventional solution:

"O Jerusalem, take heed. The current situation in Israel is untenable; there is an unending conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews. Jewish inhabitants distrust the Palestinians, and vice versa. The age-old struggle between them has cost many lives, much hardship and untold sorrow. The conflict has generated tremendous anger, hatred and distrust – forcing them to live under a single umbrella has proven to be a formula for unending friction.

. . .

Jerusalem is a major sticking point in regard to a two-state solution, which affects not only the parties, but peace in the region. Both sides have long-standing reasons to be inflexible regarding the city. Both sides have long historical, cultural and religious reasons for their intransigence regarding Jerusalem. This has led many people to insist that the two-state solution have a shared Jerusalem. That is, severing Jerusalem in twain, part to one nation and part to another, or granting co-ownership of the city to both nation states. Are either of these proposals wise?

The twentieth century saw what happened when secular powers divided up Berlin into sections. The situation was so bellicose that the Berlin Wall was erected to section off the city. For decades, the Wall divided the people and caused tremendous misery until it was finally demolished.

The same mentality of erecting “Berlin Walls” is very active in modern-day Israel, as is seen by the walled-off sections of the West Bank. Fencing off sections of Berlin did not work, and it should not be encouraged in Jerusalem. Further, if there are national borders running through the city of Jerusalem, it will guarantee that there will be continued friction and bloodshed in the city.

It is understood that neither party wants to relinquish all rights to Jerusalem, but, in reality, to have lasting peace in the area, is there any other choice? I suggest that there is not. Many centuries of conflict support my position. Therefore, in my opinion, Jerusalem should either be wholly within the nation of Israel or wholly within the newly created Palestinian state. To accomplish this, one side or the other would necessarily have to relinquish Jerusalem voluntarily, if it is to be settled amicably. It should be realized that the side that vacates Jerusalem should be amply compensated for it when boundaries for the two newly-formed nation states are drawn.

Clearly, both parties’ claims to Jerusalem are heavily based on religious grounds. If neither side will voluntarily relinquish the city, then, after solemn prayers, a lot should be cast over which nation state will house Jerusalem. Those who sincerely believe in the Divine should accept that the lot will result in the Divine’s will being carried out."

powerclown · 06-11-2010, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

powerclown: it's always a real delight to read your kach party a hair's breadth from racist intepretations of things to do with palestine.

it's all about the breadth of that hair.

so how about you knock off the "they're too stupid to govern themselves" and "they can't think rationally or make rational choices" horseshit, hmm?

I think you are confusing criticism with racism. Keith Olbermann made a nice career for himself by calling republicans every name in the book during the Bush 2 administration, but I don't think any of it was racially intended. I think its more than obvious to say both hamas and the plo - as political choices - have done far more harm than good to the palestinians.

ring · 08-30-2010, 04:27 PM

I've been looking for any blips about an investigation, & any info about
future plans the Flotilla has.

This is something:
Israel probing claims of flotilla ship thefts - CNN.com

Baraka_Guru · 08-30-2010, 04:32 PM

This reminds me. There's a Canadian group planning on breaking through the blockade.

Canada Boat to Gaza: Mission Statement

Shadowex3 · 08-30-2010, 09:12 PM

To what end though? Only the one ship ever had problems, and as soon as it was searched the rest of the aid was sent to Gaza for Hamas to promptly refuse.

Baraka_Guru · 08-31-2010, 03:59 AM

All of it?

Willravel · 08-31-2010, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

To what end though?

This is a case of nonviolent protest through civil disobedience in order to bring attention to the humanitarian disaster in Gaza.

Baraka_Guru · 08-31-2010, 09:50 AM

Generally speaking, up to 80% of Gazans live in poverty, and Israel places severe restrictions on what they can import. It's crippling the economy (and education and development) to a degree that makes Cuba look like it belongs to the G20.

Pearl Trade · 08-31-2010, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

This is a case of nonviolent protest through civil disobedience in order to bring attention to the humanitarian disaster in Gaza.

What's the point of getting through the blockade? To give aid to Gaza or to bring attention to what Israel is doing? Is one a product of the other or do they have a specific mission?

Willravel · 08-31-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl Trade

What's the point of getting through the blockade? To give aid to Gaza or to bring attention to what Israel is doing? Is one a product of the other or do they have a specific mission?

These are protesters, not military. The goals are several and they'll take what they can get. If they can get the aid through, that's a victory. If they can't get the aid through, but bring international attention to the (illegal) blockade of Gaza, that's a victory. If no one on the flotilla is murdered by IDF forces illegally boarding a Turkish vessel in international waters, it's a victory.

Shadowex3 · 08-31-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

These are protesters, not military. The goals are several and they'll take what they can get. If they can get the aid through, that's a victory. If they can't get the aid through, but bring international attention to the (illegal) blockade of Gaza, that's a victory. If no one on the flotilla is murdered by IDF forces illegally boarding a Turkish vessel in international waters, it's a victory.

In order:

1. Then they need to ask Hamas to not refuse the aid, or if they dont refuse it to not steal it and sell it for weapons.
2. It's not an illegal blockade, it's also not just an Israeli blockade.
3. Out of all the ships only the one being operated by a group that Turkey themselves banned from the country for being a terrorist front group has any sort of violence and the only people "murdered" were the ones that immediately attacked the boarding party with everything from machetes to molotov cocktails. When someone boards you with paintball guns and you try to kill them it's not murder if they shoot you, and it doesn't magically become murder just because they're a good shot either.

That being said I'm going to say something that won't matter because after all that I'm still usually instantly pegged as some kind of perfectly pro-israel jihadist: Israel is still grabbing the idiot ball with both hands and firmly refusing to let go. The actual list of what is blockaded needs to settle down, and the inane shit needs to be off of it. On top of that they could've easily just waited until the IHH ship got a little closer to do the same thing, and they really need to let Egypt and Jordan do more talking whenever they're actually all together on something. They also need to start cracking down harder on the settlers, everyone basically hates them already for being psychotic racist wingnuts so they can probably get away with it.

i don't have to even particularly like the Israeli govt all that much to know that it's still a lot better to have Israel on top than a group that actually sticks the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (and freemasonry... and the rotarians... and the french revolution... and so on) in their official govt charter along with an explicit call for genocide. Hell the Palestinians (at least in the west bank) dont like Hamas very much either, the problem is hamas is still being backed by Iran in order to keep the region destabilized and they've got a crapton of weapons and no real issue with using their own as cannon fodder.

Willravel · 08-31-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

1. Then they need to ask Hamas to not refuse the aid, or if they dont refuse it to not steal it and sell it for weapons.

Look, it would be great if Hamas didn't refuse the aid, but that's not the only point. If Hamas foolishly want so alienate their allies, let them. That's their decision. Asking them, though, is about as useful as talking to a wall.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

2. It's not an illegal blockade, it's also not just an Israeli blockade.

Collective punishment is illegal under the Geneva Conventions. The blockade is actively preventing the goods Gaza's 1.5 million residents require.

There were no Egyptian troops storming the flotilla and shooting unarmed humanitarians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

3. Out of all the ships only the one being operated by a group that Turkey themselves banned from the country for being a terrorist front group has any sort of violence and the only people "murdered" were the ones that immediately attacked the boarding party with everything from machetes to molotov cocktails. When someone boards you with paintball guns and you try to kill them it's not murder if they shoot you, and it doesn't magically become murder just because they're a good shot either.

You need to check your facts. Like, all of them. The flotilla, the site of the murders of the humanitarians, was a Turkish vessel, inspected by Turkish authorities before it left to ensure it wasn't carrying arms. The "machetes" used were kitchen knives from the galley, and the supposed Molotov cocktails? The only evidence they were used is the IDF soldiers found glass bottles (in a crate, unbroken) on the flotilla. And as for the paintball guns? The IDF forces also had sidearms with life ammunition, obviously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

That being said I'm going to say something that won't matter because after all that I'm still usually instantly pegged as some kind of perfectly pro-israel jihadist:

Poor Shadowex.

Xazy · 09-01-2010, 08:03 AM

You need to check your facts about them being unarmed and maybe find out about the soliders who got injured in the "peaceful resistance", maybe you saw the doctored photos from routers where they removed a weapon for instance.

The legality of the blockade has to do with the status of gaza, if it is part of Israel then they have the right to blockade themselves of course. If it was its own country and since it is having armed conflict against israel by sending over rockets again they can blockade it. The only real issue is the unique status that it currently is.

As far as goods being blocked from going in, they have warehouses of goods that Hamas has let in and has not distributed they have trucks delivering even more goods daily that Hamas has not let in. When Israel saw potential food issues they increased trucks for food, of course you can guess who controls distribution, in case you can not it is Hamas.

And by the way who killed 4 people yesterday including a pregnant woman to derail peace talks, if you guessed Hamas again you would be correct.

Shadowex3 · 09-01-2010, 03:37 PM

Actually I was going by the multiple surprisingly good resolution videos of the boarding that've been released, as well as the undoctored photographs clearly showing just how "nonviolent" the "humanitarians" were when a commandos with paintball guns roped down. That the commandos had backup weapons doesn't mean shit since they weren't using them until well after being attacked with deadly force.

Quote:

Collective punishment is illegal under the Geneva Conventions. The blockade is actively preventing the goods Gaza's 1.5 million residents require.

You can insist on using political trick-wording all you want, it does not change that the blockade was a legal action undertaken by Egypt and Israel.

I suppose next you'll be beating the "disproportionate force" dead horse and insisting... what exactly? Nobody is ever very clear on what IS proportionate force, just that every engagement where Hamas forces don't win was a use of "disproportionate force". Does it mean Israel should automatically ensure they take the same number of casualties as Hamas? Perhaps it means every military action should be a stalemate?

Baraka_Guru · 09-01-2010, 03:43 PM

I think the fundamental concern is the humanitarian crisis while Gaza remains under siege.

Xazy · 09-01-2010, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I think the fundamental concern is the humanitarian crisis while Gaza remains under siege.

I agree it would be nice if Hamas would take steps to accept a lot of the aid that they will not allow in to Gaza. Would been nice if the Palestenian authority under Arafat did not have billions in aid vanish. Would be nice if they did not hide weapons and rockets in schools and hospitals, and admittedly hide in civilian homes. Would be nice if they would begin to even accept the possibility of a dual nation resolution and not try to undermine it by using a terrorist attack to kill 4 people including a pregnant woman. Yes would be nice if Hamas understood the word Humanitarian

dippin · 09-01-2010, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xazy

I agree it would be nice if Hamas would take steps to accept a lot of the aid that they will not allow in to Gaza. Would been nice if the Palestenian authority under Arafat did not have billions in aid vanish. Would be nice if they did not hide weapons and rockets in schools and hospitals, and admittedly hide in civilian homes. Would be nice if they would begin to even accept the possibility of a dual nation resolution and not try to undermine it by using a terrorist attack to kill 4 people including a pregnant woman. Yes would be nice if Hamas understood the word Humanitarian

What is all this aid that Hamas is blocking? What the hell does Arafat have to do with the current blockade? More importantly, what does any of that have to do with a blockade that prevents even notebooks and chocolate from entering Gaza?

Baraka_Guru · 09-01-2010, 05:56 PM

It would be nice if Israel did and didn't do stuff too. Truly.

Willravel · 09-01-2010, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowex3

You can insist on using political trick-wording all you want, it does not change that the blockade was a legal action undertaken by Egypt and Israel.

The Geneva Conventions are not political trickery, but rather a model for international relations between nations. They set a legal and ethical standard by which countries should be judged. Israel and Egypt, though more Israel, are responsible for rationing what goods may enter Gaza to an extreme where starvation and abject poverty are the norm. Innocent people are suffering, ShadowEx. Unless you can somehow demonstrate that all of the 1.5 million people in Gaza are directly responsible for rocket attacks and such, it is collective punishment, and as such is a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

Shadowex3 · 09-01-2010, 08:39 PM

Then according to your logic it is impossible to accomplish ANY kind of security or blockade ANYWHERE because everything everywhere will by your definition be "collective punishment".

Quote:

It would be nice if Israel did and didn't do stuff too. Truly.

Yes, it really would. But real people don't have to be absolutely black and white like Willravel is insisting. It's a perfectly reasonable position to disagree with Israel on many things, such as some of the more inane shit with the blocked items list, while still being overall in support of them and against Hamas. The trick here is that Israel is an actual westernized country with real elections and diverse politics (they even have a Hamas member on the knesset) while Hamas is so flanderized that people think I'm reading them a bad comic book villain-state when all I do is read their own govt charter.

Wanting Israel to stop doing things I consider wrong is the same as wanting America to stop doing things I consider wrong. If they do it then its just another change in a changing and changeable free nation.

Wanting Hamas to stop doing things I consider wrong is like peanut butter that's made of frozen fruit juice that's been blended. It's just not the same thing anymore, the fundamental defining factor of the identity has been lost. Hamas that doesn't demand genocide and consider anyone not a part of their crusade to be another target just isn't hamas anymore.

06-11-2010, 09:10 AM	#290 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	powerclown: it's always a real delight to read your kach party a hair's breadth from racist intepretations of things to do with palestine. it's all about the breadth of that hair. so how about you knock off the "they're too stupid to govern themselves" and "they can't think rationally or make rational choices" horseshit, hmm? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-11-2010, 10:00 AM	#293 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	Doesn't most of what is considered aid get paid for via the people of the world and or the Israelis and or donations from this group or that group or, etc..... Sure the farmers get paid, but they would get paid to not farm either way, just thinking their system may be some what akin to U.S. farmers. So it seems to me in reality allowing the Palestinian/Gazans to govern themselves and make their own money, food, exports would be more beneficial for everyone involved (if we could just minus the bombings from hamas), just my sidewards thinking I guess? As I said, I don't see anyone profiting from this war, except maybe in some sick warped way, hamas in continuing to tyrannize the citizens of Gaza and completely discredit the nation of Israel, but that is their goal anyways, isn't it? __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

06-11-2010, 04:47 PM	#295 (permalink)
Xylaniel Upright	O Jerusalem, Take Heed What needs to be done is to implement a REAL solution to prevent terrible events like this from ever happening again. This is an interesting suggestion I read by Amitakh Stanford. The only chance for peace is a two state solution. Both the Palestinian state and the Israeli state need to have a seaport and continuous borders. The neighbouring muslim nations should think about granting some land to the Palestinians. However, now we are getting to the crucial part, which is Jerusalem. Jerusalem needs to be either wholly in Palestine or wholly in Israel. A "Berlin Wall" will not work, there would be continued friction and threats of war. Both Israelis and Palestinians are religious, so they should be open to an unconventional solution: "O Jerusalem, take heed. The current situation in Israel is untenable; there is an unending conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews. Jewish inhabitants distrust the Palestinians, and vice versa. The age-old struggle between them has cost many lives, much hardship and untold sorrow. The conflict has generated tremendous anger, hatred and distrust – forcing them to live under a single umbrella has proven to be a formula for unending friction. . . . Jerusalem is a major sticking point in regard to a two-state solution, which affects not only the parties, but peace in the region. Both sides have long-standing reasons to be inflexible regarding the city. Both sides have long historical, cultural and religious reasons for their intransigence regarding Jerusalem. This has led many people to insist that the two-state solution have a shared Jerusalem. That is, severing Jerusalem in twain, part to one nation and part to another, or granting co-ownership of the city to both nation states. Are either of these proposals wise? The twentieth century saw what happened when secular powers divided up Berlin into sections. The situation was so bellicose that the Berlin Wall was erected to section off the city. For decades, the Wall divided the people and caused tremendous misery until it was finally demolished. The same mentality of erecting “Berlin Walls” is very active in modern-day Israel, as is seen by the walled-off sections of the West Bank. Fencing off sections of Berlin did not work, and it should not be encouraged in Jerusalem. Further, if there are national borders running through the city of Jerusalem, it will guarantee that there will be continued friction and bloodshed in the city. It is understood that neither party wants to relinquish all rights to Jerusalem, but, in reality, to have lasting peace in the area, is there any other choice? I suggest that there is not. Many centuries of conflict support my position. Therefore, in my opinion, Jerusalem should either be wholly within the nation of Israel or wholly within the newly created Palestinian state. To accomplish this, one side or the other would necessarily have to relinquish Jerusalem voluntarily, if it is to be settled amicably. It should be realized that the side that vacates Jerusalem should be amply compensated for it when boundaries for the two newly-formed nation states are drawn. Clearly, both parties’ claims to Jerusalem are heavily based on religious grounds. If neither side will voluntarily relinquish the city, then, after solemn prayers, a lot should be cast over which nation state will house Jerusalem. Those who sincerely believe in the Divine should accept that the lot will result in the Divine’s will being carried out."

08-30-2010, 04:32 PM	#298 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	This reminds me. There's a Canadian group planning on breaking through the blockade. Canada Boat to Gaza: Mission Statement __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-31-2010, 03:59 AM	#300 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	All of it? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-10-2010, 08:07 PM	#284 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	You are only breaching a blockade once you are not on neutral waters anymore.

08-30-2010, 04:27 PM	#297 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	I've been looking for any blips about an investigation, & any info about future plans the Flotilla has. This is something: Israel probing claims of flotilla ship thefts - CNN.com

08-31-2010, 09:50 AM	#302 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Generally speaking, up to 80% of Gazans live in poverty, and Israel places severe restrictions on what they can import. It's crippling the economy (and education and development) to a degree that makes Cuba look like it belongs to the G20. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 08-31-2010 at 09:52 AM..

09-01-2010, 08:03 AM	#307 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	You need to check your facts about them being unarmed and maybe find out about the soliders who got injured in the "peaceful resistance", maybe you saw the doctored photos from routers where they removed a weapon for instance. The legality of the blockade has to do with the status of gaza, if it is part of Israel then they have the right to blockade themselves of course. If it was its own country and since it is having armed conflict against israel by sending over rockets again they can blockade it. The only real issue is the unique status that it currently is. As far as goods being blocked from going in, they have warehouses of goods that Hamas has let in and has not distributed they have trucks delivering even more goods daily that Hamas has not let in. When Israel saw potential food issues they increased trucks for food, of course you can guess who controls distribution, in case you can not it is Hamas. And by the way who killed 4 people yesterday including a pregnant woman to derail peace talks, if you guessed Hamas again you would be correct.

09-01-2010, 03:43 PM	#309 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I think the fundamental concern is the humanitarian crisis while Gaza remains under siege. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

09-01-2010, 05:56 PM	#312 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It would be nice if Israel did and didn't do stuff too. Truly. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot