I hope nobody wonders why people like me view American politics as a spectator sport.

Well, it's a spectator sport to you because you had the misfortune of being born in the tundra. Just sayin...

It's better than being asleep in the desert of the real. (No, this isn't directed at you.)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You know better than to imply correlation is the same as causation. Palin hasn't been in the news as much this month because she hasn't said as many stupid or hateful things.
I almost certainly have a better grasp on the conservative mind than you do, Ace. I'm a member of a half dozen conservative forums, I watch Fox News, I listen to Rush and Beck when I have the chance, and I read Drudge and Red State and Malkin and Town Hall. The idea that Palin madness and Birther nonsense are only a big deal because of liberals is truly and utterly false, demonstrably so. Mike Huckabee, just this last Monday during a radio interview, said that Barack Obama was raised in Kenya, reigniting the Birther talk on the right yet again.

You are quite simply wrong about this, and I would appreciate if you'd do a bit of self-reflection and ask yourself why you need to just make stuff up in order to try and defend the conservative right.

Ditto.

It's like the best soap opera going... only better.

Considering how much we love television, it's the perfect distraction.

The outright racism coming from the right wing is incredible. There is no basis in fact to support his slanders. This isn't some hack on a small talk show in Bumfuck, Mississippi, this is Huckabee saying this. The GOP needs to clean its shit up.

Fuckabee spouts that BS line about how we don't know anything about Obama. Well if he had read Dreams of My Father he'd know that Obama actually did grow up in the Boy Scouts, even though it was when he was in Indonesia

http://www.boyandgirlscouts.com/inte...s-a-boy-scout/

Rotary clubs in Indonesia:

Job at Fox equals what? Many people work at Fox and are of no real significance. Whatever happened to Juan Williams after his day in the national spot light, there was fan fare about Fox giving him a job, worked out well for him didn't it. Oh, but that's a diversion, right...just ignore it...if you don't see relevance in context.

---------- Post added at 10:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:38 PM ----------

Is this the new standard for political importance?

What an odd question. Why do you ask? I was merely pointing out in a measurable way just how wrong you were.

Perhaps this is an issue worthy of discussion. I for one have no respect for the British colonial empire and it influences my view of the British to this day, and I have no known Kenyan heritage. I certainly understand certain people from around the world having a bias against the British. I would love to debate the issue with Huckabee. Why wouldn't Obama?

---------- Post added at 10:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:47 PM ----------

Many bills get introduced that have absolutely no possibility of passage, you know this. Get serious.

---------- Post added at 10:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 PM ----------

Do you watch and read the news? There has clearly been a shift. Many in the media will no longer mention Palin as a potential GOP hopeful for the nomination. This shift happened in the last 30 days. People have made a decision to ignore her.

What you post does not support your claim.


Those are sources, but they are somewhat removed from the grass roots level of conservative thought. All the above have agendas, either to entertain, make money or otherwise capitalize on being in the alleged forefront of conservative thought.

He said he misspoke regarding the Kenya comment and that was not the point of his commentary. The point was regarding his world view as it related to British colonialism.

I don't make stuff up, I cut to the chase and speak truth.

In the words of Baraka....What an odd comment. Obama should debate the Mau Mau revolution in Kenya because of Huckabee's suggesting that Obama's world view is influenced by his father and grandfather, despite Huckabee' ignorance of Obama's family's history.


ace, that's true.

The bills were introduced to pander to the extremist fringe of the base and has nothing to do with liberals.

---------- Post added at 06:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 PM ----------

You can attempt to sugar coat it anyway you want, but the point of his commentary was racially inflammatory, with ignorant references to Obama's family and the Mau Maus.

Lady Gaga had over 10,000. That is of no importance in politics either.

"lady gaga" - Google News

Another odd comment, ace. Try to focus, please.

Be that as it may, I for one, would vote for Lady Gaga for president over Palin, who unlike Gaga, is a paid political commentator and has suggested her interest in running.

I did not say that he should, I asked why wouldn't he. I think the issue is a chapter in human history that has been glossed over - it is worthy of debate. In my view until it is openly discussed there will be an undercurrent of il feelings. That is just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.



I agree the bills have nothing to do with liberals. However, to the degree that liberals focus on matters of no importance has everything to do with their choices. It is legitimate to question that.

B.S. people who are racists are and have been "inflamed". Other people want to understand Obama's world view and how it evolved. There are blaring questions and if you want to play the race card every time the questions are discussed that is diversionary.

From the master of diversionary B.S. :thumbsup:

But if you want to play that card, Obama's family had no more to do with the Mau Mau revolution in Kenya than Huckabee's family had to do with lynchings in the south in the 50s.

It is not odd for those who have read what I have written in the past on the subject of Palin. Lady Gaga has made political comments and I don't take her comments seriously because she is a reflection of her audience and does not change political views. Palin does not change political views either, even when mcCain picked her, he did it to energize the "base" which see did. Liberals and independents have no need to fear Palin after the 2008 loss. To the degree you folks make a big deal out of her is your problem. I have said that repeatedly, sooner or later you folks will get the message. I thought Feb. was your turning point, I guess it wasn't. Viva, Palin:thumbsup:

---------- Post added at 11:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Thanks.

It is not possible to have been a living person in the South through the civil rights movement and not have had it shape in some material fashion one's current political views.

Yes, I would question Huckabee about his past regarding civil Rights and how his views were formed - including understanding the views of his parents and grand parents and how he reconciled with them. Bill Clinton had to address those issues and he did in a manner that allowed him to win 80% to 90% of the black vote.

ace, you were talking about Sarah Palin and the news just a few posts ago. It's right there.

Well, it's difficult to take Palin's comments seriously too, but that's no reason to ignore her or not be concerned. There is still talk of her running for president. Many were saying having a black man as president was next to impossible at this time in American history....

Huckabee was born and grew up in the South.

Obama was born in Hawaii and grew up there (with his maternal grandparents) and in Indonesia...and barely knew his Kenyan father and didnt visit the country until his 20s.

Feel free to keep making excuses for Huckabee's ignorant, and yes, racially charged comments....correcting himself about the Mau Maus (scary Blacks) in Kenya only to then speak about Obama growing up in the context of madrasas (scary Muslims) in Indonesia.

I find it difficult to accept that you are debating the content of Huckabee's action. He has simply fed fuel into the fire of the conservative propaganda machine. It has become expected that Republicans, in their failure to win enough credibility and support for their positions and policies, must resort to misinformation, half-truths, redirection, and encouraging the ignorance and outrage of the voting public in an attempt to undermine the legitimacy of an ostensibly all-too-liberal president.

This is merely one of the many underhanded actions we can expect to see in the run-up to the 2012 election.

I'd like to be proven wrong.

I'm honestly not sure what we're even arguing about at this point.
On the contrary, it most certainly does. The difference is simple: when I converse with or observe conservatives, I'm doing it as someone who does not agree with them on many things. I don't end up filtering out things which I disagree with in order to maintain a sense of ideological unity. I'm ashamed to say I don't always maintain that level of objectivity when it comes to people on the left, which leads me to suspect that the same is true of conservatives. Tell me, how vigilantly did you, in other political venues (be they forums, real life, Fox News comments, etc.), challenge the Birthers when they first came out of the woodwork? Did you champion reality, or did you ignore it and agree with the Birthers on other matters without mentioning it?
There are grassroots sources on the right, but they hold almost no influence over the majority of conservatives. I don't ignore Eisenhower-esque or Ron Paul-ish sites, but I'm more than certain that their effect on conservative thought is minuscule at best. Moderate conservatives and true libertarians, which are the only real alternatives to the neoconservatives nowadays, are quite whispers compared to the megaphones of conservative talk radio, Fox News, and conservative political blogs like Drudge.
I'm sure Huck wants people to think he misspoke. If I said something like that and was caught, I'd not want to take responsibility for it either. I suppose cowardice is normal in a situation like that.

This should be in paranoia. I'm sorry but you can't 'slip by' your birth cert. and become president if you aren't a citizen. Don't people realize there are official types that check these things?

I don't see the Mau Mau uprising in terms of "scary" and certainly not in terms of race. The British wanted to exploit the land and employ cheep labor for their enrichment. I would have fought along side the people of Kenya seeking freedom and self-determination.

We seem to be totally out of sync regarding what the point of this is. For the record and hopefully to clarify my position - I have no respect for British colonialism. The impact of what was done has had lasting effects and to this day is hurting the development of the African continent. The British has never done anything to correct the problems they created. I don't suggest that the British are not currently good allies of this country and that they do not make some positive contributions to the world - but on this issue it is very problematic for me. From my point of view, I would accept Huckabee's call, and debate the issue.

---------- Post added at 04:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:17 PM ----------

You used Google news stories to make a point, within in that what percentage had to do with politics? A large number of those "news" stories had to do with Kathy Griffin playing a Palin like role on Glee.

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

You think you know conservatives better than I do, I disagree. I will never be able to prove you are wrong. I highlight the above statement from your post for your re-consideration. It seems implausible on its face to me.

If you're implying the Tea Party is grassroots, I welcome you to follow their funding all the way back to conservative think tanks and eventually the Koch brothers. All of the information is publicly available, and you can actually see every step taken by the organized right to take over the movement from the libertarians and turn it into a political tool working on behalf of the big government neoconservatives. There is no reasonable doubt as to this information.

Or perhaps you're referring to some other grassroots organization on the right with political clout? Please, enlighten me.

ace....more of the same diversionary bullshit.

Huckabee's comments to his political base were not about British colonialism,..he would be an idiot to think his base, or any voters, gives a crap about the subject, being that it is irrelevant to their concerns..... but were to demonize Obama as somehow being influenced by "Un-American" ideals.


I dont think ace wants to acknowledge the fact that Palin is paid $1 million by Fox to express her political opinion as opposed to Lady Gaga or Kathy Griffin, who are not and who do not have political ambitions.

Ignorance is bliss.

Well, Palin, Gaga, and Griffin all have something in common: none of them have ruled out running for president in 2012.

I guess that means they're all potential candidates, and we should follow them in the news with equal consideration.

Here is an example of a grassroots conservative view:

IBD/TIPP Poll: Americans Back Offshore, ANWR Drilling - Investors.com

On every issue you will see base level support of an issue and you will see trends or patterns. There is a tolerance in the middle and with new information there are shifts at the "grassroots" level that will move the course of political action in this country. For example Democrats were out of touch with the underlying "grass roots" conservative views of the country leading into the 2010 elections. Obama has continued to show he is out of touch and is out of touch on the energy issue. At the "grassroots" level conservative people do not want electric cars and windmills, we want oil. smart politician respond to "grassroots" issues and concerns.


I talk about the general views held by individuals in the country. Only small percentages of people join organizations, very few post on boards or do blogs, very few call talk radio, no one media outlet or personality dominates - mostly we are talking about people who simply try to make the most of their day to day lives.

---------- Post added at 07:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

Huckabee insulted Obama, but not in the way you think. Huckabee basically said that Obama is afraid and unwilling to share what he really thinks, that what we get from Obama is the image he wants to project. He threw the Kenyan thing out as a challenge to Obama.




Palin is paid by Fox to get viewers.
Lady Gaga gets paid to get viewers.
Kathy Griffin gets paid to get viewers.

When any of the above faulter, they will stop getting paid eventually.

Who is really ignorant?

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

Funny. I have not ruled out a run for President either.

I pay attention to Palin because I like her as a person, I like her politics and I like her style. You pay attention because.....? I think the answer is because you fear her for some reason.

A part of it is the entertainment factor. She's practically a self-parody who's difficult to take serious at times. A part of it I guess could be described as fear. I fear someone like her becoming the President of the United States. Anyone who wants to resurrect Reagonomics or to continue many of the things conducted both economically and politically under George W. Bush is a the very least a wee bit frightening.

For the record, I don't really pay attention to Lady Gaga. I sometimes play one or two singles if I feel like hearing a solid beat with a catchy melody. But that's about it. Also, I don't really know who Kathy Griffin is. Some kind of co-host with Regis?

Anyway, neither of those two have much of an impact on me up here in the Great White North, whether current or potential.

I can't say the same about Sarah Palin.

I don't pay attention merely because I fear what she represents. I pay attention because she is a significant part of what's going on south of the border. This is the case even if she doesn't run for president.

I didn't think it would be that difficult to comprehend.

You think conservative support for offshore drilling can't be traced back to neoconservative propaganda? Again, follow the money. Long-time Washington insider and neoconservative Dick Armey's FreedomWorks, known right now best for being one of the biggest hands behind the Tea Party, and the US Chamber of Commerce worked directly with BP in attempting to build astroturf support for offshore drilling. I'm sorry, but if you think that support for offshore drilling is grassroots, I've got a bridge to sell you. That leads to nowhere.

Moreover, the poll that said 57% of Americans favor offshore drilling was done by Rasmussen, which has been known to poll more in favor of conservative points compared to other pollsters. The same poll done at the same time by Virginia Commonwealth University, which is nonpartisan, actually revealed that 51% of Americans are opposed to offshore drilling. I'll grant you that's not a wide margin, but considering there are no corporate funded propaganda machines pushing to end drilling, it's an important number.
Those people want to tax the rich to balance the budget. Boot-strapy folk wantin' to make ends meet and work hard to do right by their families want that rich to pay their fair share, which goes against arguably the central issue of modern conservatism. This belief can't be traced back to a conservative or liberal or libertarian think tank because most of them are funded by millionaires. This is a real life, actual grassroots belief.

Aaand herein lies the irony: Obama's citizenship is brought into question.

Whither the questions regarding corporate influence on politics?

Oh wait: conservatives worship Corporate America as the driving force behind American prosperity. They look to Corporate America as a source of values, principles, and hope. They look to Corporate America as the foundation of the very essence of the state and every individual within it. They look to Corporate America as a means to find salvation from everything that plagues society. They pay tribute to Corporate America through tax breaks, for all of the good it brings. Oh, yes, they look quite fervently to the Catholic Church Corporate America, and it is for the good of the American public above all else.

Why would anyone who isn't an oil company favor offshore oil drilling? Wouldn't any oil that resulted from an increase in offshore drilling simply be sold on the world market to the highest bidder? I wonder if any oil companies would get hefty handouts from the federal government in conjunction with offshore drilling? Hmm. It almost seems like increased offshore drilling will cost the US taxpayers money and provide benefit almost solely for wealthy corporations. That sounds like something that has grassroots support :rolleyes:.

The tea party is relevant because it provides a means for those who are already wealthy to become even wealthier. If the tea party could actually achieve its ostensible goals (ie government accountability and fiscal responsibility) the people who currently fund it would be actively funding its antagonists.

I think moms with kids want to drive those kids to soccer practice without the need for a second mortgage to pay for gas. They don't want any undue harm to come to the caribou in Alaska but not at the expense of being able to fill-up the minivan.:thumbsup:

Oh, and they don't care where Obama was born, but they will talk about it.

Why did you just skip over the part where I linked to an article describing in great detail how BP and the Tea Party are basically in bed together to create artificial support for offshore drilling? Or the polling showing that a majority of Americans are actually against offshore drilling? Those directly call into question your assertion that there's some sort of grassroots support among real Americans for offshore drilling. Were you wrong, is this all just from your 'gut', or do you have more information?

I love how he misspoke but talked about Obama's views of the Mau Mau revolution. What, does he believe the Mau Mau revolution occurred in Indonesia? (yes I took that from Colbert, but that doesn't make it any less true)

Because our disagreement involved an understanding of what is important to conservatives on a grassroots level. Most conservatives do not belong to the Tea Party or have even attended a Tea Party event. Also, at the grassroots level conservatives have more concern for the owner of the local BP gas station than they despise BP. BP is not going to influence conservative thought at the grassroots level one way or the other until they repair their corporate image.


I spend a lot of time with parents with kids involved in sports and other activities as is my son. Waiting for practice to end gets pretty boring and parents talk about all kinds of stuff. If you really want insight to grassroots issues, hang out at a soccer field for a season or two.

That's actually not at all what he was trying to do. He was flat out saying Obama's views are somehow "Un-American". Just because you twisted what he said around to make a point doesn't mean that it's true. This is ridiculous.

I thought he said he misspoke regarding where Obama was raised.

I was not raised in Kenya and I have an opinion on British colonialism and nations in Africa fighting for independence and self-determination. Do you have a view? Does Obama? If so, what is it? Huckabee suggests that Obama has a view but is hiding it. I think Huckabee stand by that charge.

Yes, he said he misspoke about where Obama was raised but insinuated that because Obama was raised in Kenya, his views of the Mau Mau revolution are different than ours. But Obama wasn't raised in Kenya, so his whole point is moot and his retraction is a flat out lie.

Stop trying to pretend like he was making separate points. His comment about Obama's view of the Mau Mau revolution tied in completely with his (ignorant) comment about Obama being raised in Kenya.

If what you suggest is true, Huckabee considers me un-American. Rather than running from the charge I would go back at him point by point. I would debate him. I don't see it as a racist issue at all, or a "not one of us" issue. Being an American means that we fought against the British for our independence. America is more aligned with Kenya on that point than with Britain. And i would shout that off the roof tops all day long - but I am not a politician.

---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------

And he is wrong.

You don't have to be from Kenya to have your point of view shaped by those events.

The guy doing the interview was/is a "birther", and the question was a setup question. Huckabee responded to a different point, that is what created most of the confusion. Huckabee should have simply said that he is not a "birther" and then went on to make his other point.

I'm sure your fellow soccer parents are interesting folks each with their own opinions, but I'm amazed that you're willing to consider that very, very small group somehow representative of an entire half of the political spectrum. I'm also more than a little shocked that you think BP teaming up with FreedomWorks and the Chamber of Commerce to brainwash the population with pro offshore drilling propaganda isn't a big deal and doesn't have consequences that reach even as far as the soccer field. Don't you care that there's a concerted effort by the rich and powerful elite to manipulate you into believing things which are not true, like offshore drilling being safe and necessary to keep your SUV running?

I get information from many sources, I even read what you write and the sources included in your posts. However, have you ever noticed the difference in how I respond to those sources and how others respond to sources outside of their normal routines? The general rule is anything not on the "approved list" is immediately dismissed regardless of content by you folks. Even you minimize the importance of "soccer moms (and dads and other youth sports and youth activities)". When I talk to people raising children in NC, I understand the perspective.


I do not buy into the general concept of mass brainwashing. I believe the Stockholm syndrome is possible on some people but not on a mass scale. Rather than the theory you present, I think it is more about people in their day to day lives trying to make it the best they can molding political points of view on topics like offshore drilling.

There are risks in offshore drilling. There are risks in everything we do. I do not make the assumption that people do not understand the trade offs involved in the risks and benefits of off-shore drilling or any form of drilling.