What if Jesus died without witnesses? Would we be saved? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

prosequence · 04-29-2004, 04:29 PM

God will accept those into heaven who accept him into their hearts. I think that's pretty compaasionate. Knowing that, then refusing to do so is a ... interesting choice. A choice that a person would have to live with. It's not God saying you can or cannot enter, it's you. He set out the guidelines, it's up to you to follow them or not.

Stompy · 04-29-2004, 05:29 PM

Ok, so what about baptism?

What about the part where I asked if you had to believe all out 100%. Let's say I think, for the most part, that I believe in god, but there's a part of me that thinks "what if...". Is that not believing in god?

If that thought is always and forever in my head, and being a human and having to deal with a thing like thought, mind, and choice, how could I ever honestly truly 100% believe? Would I be lying ot myself? What if I WANT to believe, but can't because of that thought? What if I tell others, "Yes, I believe" and I attend church, live by the rules, etc.. but deep deep down, there's doubt.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... will he understand that I am human and that I will think and feel such things, or will he say "You're only pretending to believe. Sorry, eternity in hell for you"?

Surely there's SOME part of you that wonders "what if.."

prosequence · 04-29-2004, 05:50 PM

Yes, he'll understand that you're human, he won't expect you to be perfect. As long as you make an honest effort. At least that's what I believe.

Jay Francis · 05-28-2004, 07:20 PM

Well, we actually have an interesting aside on this question.

What about the opposite situation, where, say, Jesus never existed, but over the years older mythologies (the Hero mythologies of the Greeks, the story of Zarathrustra, the story of Appolonius of Tyana, for example) became incorporated into a story about a person named Jesus who lived, died, and lived again.

What if Jesus never existed, but over many centuries the myths became believed by so many people that a major religion evolved. However, at the core, there is no such thing as salvation or everlasting life, because Jesus never existed?

Would people still have everlasting life if they believed the mythology?

prosequence · 06-01-2004, 10:47 AM

Interesting idea for a thread, you should start one.

ibis · 06-05-2004, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KellyC
Are we "saved" right now?

I think so.

The witnesses weren't important, it was the fact that he died that saved us.

roachboy · 06-08-2004, 05:42 AM

witnesses were fundamental--and which witnesses should be the "real" ones was debated at the council of nicea, after constantine converted and all that. they are, in the main, funny kinds of witnesses, writing well after the events, something like 150 years. but still. without the texts, there would be no story. without the story, there would be no belief. qed.

tecoyah · 06-08-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Yes, he'll understand that you're human, he won't expect you to be perfect. As long as you make an honest effort. At least that's what I believe.

You have peeked my interest.
In your opinion, would I be doomed to the depths if I accepted my personal version of this entity, rather than the one in numerous texts. If indeed I have "Faith" in the god I percieve to be true, and it is not the same one you refer to, would your chosen aspect of this deity forgive my ignorance, and allow me access to paradise?

prosequence · 06-08-2004, 12:09 PM

Yes, there are answers, go to the source to find the answers.

tecoyah · 06-08-2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Yes, there are answers, go to the source to find the answers.

I am sorry....I do not understand the reply.
Elaborate please?

prosequence · 06-08-2004, 06:56 PM

You, asking us what God's reasoning is. We can only speculate, so ask him yourself, get the direct answer.

tecoyah · 06-09-2004, 03:27 AM

Well, I was actually asking for your personal opinion, but that's OK. Thanx.

prosequence · 06-14-2004, 10:59 AM

My personal opinion is you would go to hell. God would at least give you the oportunity to change your belief and be forgiven. If you chose not to then I think you would go to hell.

04-29-2004, 04:29 PM	#41 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	God will accept those into heaven who accept him into their hearts. I think that's pretty compaasionate. Knowing that, then refusing to do so is a ... interesting choice. A choice that a person would have to live with. It's not God saying you can or cannot enter, it's you. He set out the guidelines, it's up to you to follow them or not. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

04-29-2004, 05:29 PM	#42 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Ok, so what about baptism? What about the part where I asked if you had to believe all out 100%. Let's say I think, for the most part, that I believe in god, but there's a part of me that thinks "what if...". Is that not believing in god? If that thought is always and forever in my head, and being a human and having to deal with a thing like thought, mind, and choice, how could I ever honestly truly 100% believe? Would I be lying ot myself? What if I WANT to believe, but can't because of that thought? What if I tell others, "Yes, I believe" and I attend church, live by the rules, etc.. but deep deep down, there's doubt. I guess what I'm trying to ask is... will he understand that I am human and that I will think and feel such things, or will he say "You're only pretending to believe. Sorry, eternity in hell for you"? Surely there's SOME part of you that wonders "what if.." __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 04-29-2004 at 05:34 PM..

04-29-2004, 05:50 PM	#43 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Yes, he'll understand that you're human, he won't expect you to be perfect. As long as you make an honest effort. At least that's what I believe. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

06-01-2004, 10:47 AM	#45 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Interesting idea for a thread, you should start one. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

06-08-2004, 05:42 AM	#47 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	witnesses were fundamental--and which witnesses should be the "real" ones was debated at the council of nicea, after constantine converted and all that. they are, in the main, funny kinds of witnesses, writing well after the events, something like 150 years. but still. without the texts, there would be no story. without the story, there would be no belief. qed. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-28-2004, 07:20 PM	#44 (permalink)
Jay Francis Psycho Location: Houston, Texas	Well, we actually have an interesting aside on this question. What about the opposite situation, where, say, Jesus never existed, but over the years older mythologies (the Hero mythologies of the Greeks, the story of Zarathrustra, the story of Appolonius of Tyana, for example) became incorporated into a story about a person named Jesus who lived, died, and lived again. What if Jesus never existed, but over many centuries the myths became believed by so many people that a major religion evolved. However, at the core, there is no such thing as salvation or everlasting life, because Jesus never existed? Would people still have everlasting life if they believed the mythology?

06-08-2004, 12:09 PM	#49 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Yes, there are answers, go to the source to find the answers. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

06-08-2004, 06:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	You, asking us what God's reasoning is. We can only speculate, so ask him yourself, get the direct answer. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

06-09-2004, 03:27 AM	#52 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Well, I was actually asking for your personal opinion, but that's OK. Thanx. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

06-14-2004, 10:59 AM	#53 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	My personal opinion is you would go to hell. God would at least give you the oportunity to change your belief and be forgiven. If you chose not to then I think you would go to hell. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...