Is "I am agnostic" a valid answer to "Do you beleive in god?" - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Genom Screams · 09-14-2005, 12:53 AM

I still battle back and forth with what I believe and don't believe. My belief's are based on my feelings and I think that doing that is somewhat wrong. If there is a god, I don't think that god is vengeful. I have no idea what god is. For all I know we can all be god because we can be a manifestation of god and see through god's eyes. it's just too confusing. I don't really think I can ever believe in hell. I think that we shouldn't really decide whether god exists or not. We can ponder and ask questions, but why ask. You have a lifetime to figure things out instead of being subjugated by religion. I'm not saying religion is bad but it does separate humans, which I guess is inevitable. But why not just find out when you die. Why not just enjoy life and it's experiences even if we may exist only once. I don't really believe there is a purpose in life. I only think that we create purposes. If so, let it be that these purposes make us happy. Once again, if there is a god, I don't believe god is vengeful. If god stands for love, he wouldn't hurt us.

Genom Screams · 09-14-2005, 01:08 AM

oh might i add....since i'm not sure whether i believe in god or not, i don't think it's a bad idea to question about god. if there is a god, maybe we can begin to discover god in this life whether god is life, us, an entity, a part of us, or not. questions and experiences with different people is the best way to find out i think.

braindamage351 · 09-14-2005, 05:45 PM

A real agnostic believes that it as there is no information to go by, it's stupid to make a decision in relation to God. The other definition is just a synonym for indecisive.

There's a major difference between "It's unknowable" and "I don't know...maybe..."

There's no such thing as an Agnostic Christian, Muslim, or Jew. There IS such a thing as an uncertain Christian, a confused Muslim, and a wavering Jew. But if you're really agnostic then you drop the Christian, Muslim, and Jew parts. How can you be a non-believing believer?

GMontag · 09-15-2005, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braindamage351

A real agnostic believes that it as there is no information to go by, it's stupid to make a decision in relation to God. The other definition is just a synonym for indecisive.

There's a major difference between "It's unknowable" and "I don't know...maybe..."

There's no such thing as an Agnostic Christian, Muslim, or Jew. There IS such a thing as an uncertain Christian, a confused Muslim, and a wavering Jew. But if you're really agnostic then you drop the Christian, Muslim, and Jew parts. How can you be a non-believing believer?

You most certainly can be an agnostic theist. All agnostic means is that you believe that knowledge and proof of god aren't attainable. An example of a christian agnostic would be someone who follows one of the apologetic lines of thought that go "Knowledge of God may be impossible, but faith requires me to believe anyway, so I believe".

adysav · 09-29-2005, 02:39 PM

What I can't believe is that there are still so many idiots in the 21st century.

There's a long story written back when people thought thunder was god getting angry.
Why does blind faith in this story and all it's associated bullshit matter so much to so many?

Some people are saying "ok you don't *know* whether god exists, but do you *believe*?".
A better question would be:
If you don't (and can't) know about the existence of a god, what's the point in wasting your time on it, especially with ridiculous specifics like "you must face mecca" "you must wear such-and-such a garment"?

Fibrosa · 09-29-2005, 03:31 PM

There are two types of agnostics:

Agnostic fideists and agnostic atheists. If someone says "I'm an agnostic", they pretty much mean they are an atheist.

Francisco · 10-01-2005, 01:47 AM

As an agnostic, my answer would be, no I don't believe there is a god, but I also am not certain there is not a god.

And the reason I decided not to call myself an atheist is because many, if not most, atheists seem to be god-haters, which implies there is still a belief in god hidden somewhere in their psyche.

adysav · 10-02-2005, 02:29 AM

I think most atheists don't fully appreciate their own position is as much a matter of belief as a theist, albeit a slightly less arbitrary one.

I would class myself as agnostic, my reason being that I can't possibly make a meaningful decision. The question was just pulled out of thin air by people.

If I asked "Do you believe that somewhere out there there is a rock shaped like two giraffes humping?" and the only allowed answers are yes and no, what would your answer be?

Francisco · 10-02-2005, 01:51 PM

Regarding the "rock shaped like two giraffes humping."

Not to be argumentative, but I took the initial question to mean, do you believe in a supreme being, which of course doesn't specify exactly what qualities you then believe that being to have. So that's not quite the same as asking if you believe, in effect, that the one you have put your faith in looks like some sort of beast with two backs. Although perhaps you have described something that represents a form of animal heaven - which begins to make more and more sense. Perhaps the rock represents the supreme being's logo?

adysav · 10-03-2005, 03:45 AM

Maaan, there's no need to take the piss

Nimetic · 10-03-2005, 06:32 AM

To me - god if he/she exists does very little. Does not affect my morals, does not affect my science, and I'm not interested in he/she/it. Hence I usually tag myself agnostic.

I've been through this with others before. Apparently this is an usual position to take on the matter.

Stompy · 10-03-2005, 06:59 AM

Of course it's a valid answer. How would it not be?

It's more valid than "Yes" or "No", IMO. No one knows for sure whether god exists or not.

Everything exists for a reason. I have a hard time believing this omniscient being, bored off his ass, decides to create a universe... or however it's defined in common religion. Then it begs the question, "Where did god come from?" and then things get all jacked up, or you end up with some kind of half-assed thoughtless cop-out such as, "he's always existed".

Saying "I'm agnostic" is on par with, "I don't really care to waste my time on it all since no one will ever know, so quit asking me stupid questions."

Charlatan · 10-03-2005, 07:13 AM

The answer, "I am agnostic", while surely valid, is about as wishy-washy as it gets and as such suggests that you do believe but just can't commit.

IF there is a God, he's going to be *very* pissed at the agnostics when he gets around to meeting them.

Kalnaur · 10-03-2005, 07:19 AM

For some less learned people, the ones who give you that look of "huh?" when you say "I'm agnostic", simply saying "I believe that one or many could possibly exist" might be a more full response.

adysav · 10-03-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

The answer, "I am agnostic", while surely valid, is about as wishy-washy as it gets and as such suggests that you do believe but just can't commit.

I reckon there are more agnostics edging on the atheist side than theist.
What I don't get is that there are so many people who just don't understand the agnostic viewpoint. The phrase "seeing is believing" is a simplified summary for all of you still struggling.
To be honest I'm siding with Stompy on this, religion is a waste of time.

I'd be embarassed to say I believed in God, modern-day educated folk believing unwaiveringly in God is like believing in Santa Claus.

Windbreaker · 10-05-2005, 02:38 AM

I had this question come up just the other day and my answer was "I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but do not have faith in organized religion."

So my 2cents is you should clarify on weather or not you believe in a higher power or not. I don't think you can be a agnostic/christian.

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windbreaker

I had this question come up just the other day and my answer was "I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but do not have faith in organized religion."

So my 2cents is you should clarify on weather or not you believe in a higher power or not. I don't think you can be a agnostic/christian.

This seems to suggest that you do believe in God but not any Church's definition of Him.

In saying you believe in a higher power you are saying you believe in God, you just don't choose to define what God is.

This isn't agnostic. An agnostic is not willing to say there is or isn't a God (or higher power).

Stompy · 10-05-2005, 07:35 AM

Well, I'm not really saying it's a waste of time as much as I'm saying "We don't know."

And if you think about it... we don't. Look at ALL the various religions.

If a god is to get pissed at agnostics, then he will be pissed at Buddhists as well. Is that fair to them? Is it wrong to sit there and say to Buddhists, "Your religion is wrong. You don't worship my god, so you're gonna go to hell"?

You have a plethora of beliefs and religions, each with a completely different "Theme", I guess you'd call it... but the underlying ideas are the same: be kind to others.

If there was a god, there's no way he could be pissed at people for thinking about this. We are human. If there was a god.. he created us. He created our free will. Why would we get punished for it?

So basically you're put on this earth with various religions left and right, and if you don't pick the right one, you're fucked?

If that's how god works... then I don't want to be a part of him!

Personally, I'm aware about all these choices, and I've looked into various religions... I believe that there's *something*, whether or not it's an actual being is beyond me. If I get punished for my choices, then god will get my middle finger.

But I certainly don't believe in the stupid rules that they set.. such as "If you have sex before marriage you're committing a sin." Please.. why would I get punished for something natural? It's just a ridiculous form of control.

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 07:42 AM

Interesting that you chose Buddhism as your example. I don't really see Buddhism as a religion per se. Buddhists do not worship any divine being. They follow the path laid down by a mortal.

It is the only "religion" for lack of a better word that holds any interest for me and even then, I have a lot of issues with the Buddhist understanding of what happens before and after death...

Stompy · 10-05-2005, 07:46 AM

Yeah, I just realized I put "religion" as opposed to "philosophy" when speaking about the Buddhists

But I think the idea holds true. Since they don't worship any deity, are they going to suffer the same consequences as atheists and agnostics, especially if the aforementioned lead a wholesome life?

That's the thing about religion that irks me... it just reeks of man, and that's personally why I chose to be agnostic, or at least something other than what man has defined over the years.

[edit]

To explain further.. all the restrictions and rules that are defined in most religions are things that MAN is concerned about, not something a GOD would be concerned about.

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 08:01 AM

"reeks of man"... When I examine organized religion this is exactly what I come up with as well.

For me, once all the morality and rules are stripped away the true purpose of any religion is to answer the two questions to which we have no answer... where do we come from and what happens when we die.

The fear of death, or the unease that we feel when we think on death is universal. Religions provide answers and more importantly comfort in the face of this great unknown.

I am content in my faith that when I die, there will be nothing. Sure it's scary but it just makes a lot more sense to me than some concept of heaven, shoel (the Jewish afterlife), reincarnation, etc. Why make it more complicated than it need be?

Francisco · 10-05-2005, 08:56 AM

Why make it more complicated than it need be? Probably because that's what we do.
Our brains evolved to solve problems, and made more problems for us at the same time. In a sense, humans are more complicated than they need be. As a group, we have great difficulty living with uncertainty. We're a lot happier with myths as answers than with no answers at all, it seems. Anything to dampen those "scary" feelings.

Here's what one of the most famous (or notorious?) agnostic/atheists had to say about that:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx

howdydave · 10-10-2005, 08:05 PM

Yup...

The question itself is open to so many different interpretations that if somebody doesn't like the answer, make them tell you their definitions of the terms "believe" and "god."

Zeraph · 10-11-2005, 02:38 PM

As far as the OP, I agree that is not a sufficient answer as agnosticism usually has to do with knowing if there's a god, not belief in one. For instance, I believe we've been to the moon in rocketships, however, I don't KNOW we've been there, I can't know that as I've never even been to NASA or anywhere near it.

I've always searched for a term that describes what I am, but I have yet to find one. I am not agnostic, theist, deist, or atheist. Am I missing anything?

Francisco · 10-11-2005, 03:27 PM

I'd say agnosticism involves not knowing and therefor not believing. If you say you believe, but don't really know, you may be like many who have faith based on hope rather than certainty. In fact they may be in the majority of those who profess a belief. And many of those have serious doubts but are hedging their bets - in case there is a God after all who might be a bit pissed at having been disbelieved. So I don't know either what you would call them. Closet agnostics, perhaps.

1010011010 · 10-11-2005, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

As far as the OP, I agree that is not a sufficient answer as agnosticism usually has to do with knowing if there's a god, not belief in one.

Saying "I am agnostic." makes the exchange something to the effect of:
"Do you believe in god?"
"I believe knowledge of gods' existance is impossible."

It doesn't really answer the question being asked.
It's unlikely that someone who believed in some deity or another would answer "I'm an agnostic."
Even a Christian could claim to be agnostic since they have faith (not knowledge) that their god exists... but they'd probably just answer "Yes".

Zeraph · 10-12-2005, 11:26 AM

Ya that's what I'm saying, like so many words agnostic is misused. Belief or faith =\= knowledge.

So...why did you quote me? Are you agreeing?

rsl12 · 10-13-2005, 08:27 AM

Just to clarify the discussion, I'd like to give a few formal definitions. Some people seem to be mixing up definitions, particularly those of 'agnosticism' and 'skepticism':

Agnostic - An agnostic is one who believes there is insufficient evidence to prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of God or gods. Agnostics criticize the theist and the atheist for their dogmatism and their presumption of such knowledge.

Athiest - An atheist is one who believes that there exists positive evidence that there is no God. To the atheist, all of existence can be explained naturally rather than supernaturally. An atheist is convinced that all religious belief, evidence, and faith are false.

Skeptic - The skeptic neither affirms nor denies God's existence. And in contrast to the (hard) agnostic, the skeptic does not say it is impossible to know. For (hard) agnosticism too is a form of dogmatism -negative dogmatism. The skeptic claims to take a much more tentative attitude toward knowledge. He is not sure whether a man can or cannot know God. In fact, the complete skeptic is not sure of anything.

Read more here:
http://www.greatcom.org/resources/ha...01/default.htm

rsl12 · 10-13-2005, 08:29 AM

BTW, believing that a particular type of knowledge is impossible (i.e., agnosticism) isn't that strange. Physicists do it all the time when they deal with the heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Not knowing what to believe (i.e., skepticism) is also not that strange. Do you know anyone who is on the fence about global warming?

1010011010 · 10-14-2005, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

So...why did you quote me? Are you agreeing?

It's a habit. As I read throgh a thread, I'll Ctrl-Click on any posts that interest me to load the quote/reply in a background tab. When I finish the thread I go through the tabs an see if I still want to make my comment (I.E. did someone else already cover whatever it is I want to say?) and consolidate the relavant bits from all the tabs into one post. It's mostly there for context.... not because I necessarily disagree (or agree) with the quoted text; just because that's what prompted my comment.

Philosopher · 10-29-2005, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rsl12

Just to clarify the discussion, I'd like to give a few formal definitions. Some people seem to be mixing up definitions, particularly those of 'agnosticism' and 'skepticism':

Agnostic - An agnostic is one who believes there is insufficient evidence to prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of God or gods. Agnostics criticize the theist and the atheist for their dogmatism and their presumption of such knowledge.

Athiest - An atheist is one who believes that there exists positive evidence that there is no God. To the atheist, all of existence can be explained naturally rather than supernaturally. An atheist is convinced that all religious belief, evidence, and faith are false.

Skeptic - The skeptic neither affirms nor denies God's existence. And in contrast to the (hard) agnostic, the skeptic does not say it is impossible to know. For (hard) agnosticism too is a form of dogmatism -negative dogmatism. The skeptic claims to take a much more tentative attitude toward knowledge. He is not sure whether a man can or cannot know God. In fact, the complete skeptic is not sure of anything.

Read more here:
http://www.greatcom.org/resources/ha...01/default.htm

There is a new religion that is like skepticism. It's called Universism.

But I'm glad people (not just the person quoted) did put actual definitions. It means we can have an informed debate.

I think that it is a valid answer. Just look at the definition.

Spiker439 · 10-30-2005, 11:57 AM

Saying that one is agnostic is most definitely an answer to the question "Do You Believe in God?" There's another question that's equally important, which is "Do you believe there is NO God?". Let's examine how three groups of people, namely atheists, theists, and agnostics would respond to these two questions.

Firstly theists - You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Yes I beleive in God, no I don't believe that there isn't a God.

Atheists - No I don't believe in God, yes I do believe there isn't a God.

Agnostics - This is where it gets tricky, because an agnostic is actually answering NO to BOTH questions. Do you believe in God? Well no, because I don't see any avidence that proves that such a being exists. Do you believe there is NO God? Well no, because I see no evidence that leads me to believe that there is certainly NO God in one sense or another.

A more "sitting on the fence" answer that agnostics will give is their answer to the question "Does God exist?" An agnostic will simply say I don't know. I threw this in to illustrate the difference between "Believing in God" and saying firmly that he "Exists". There is certainly a difference here. If I'm not sure that god exists, surely I won't believe in him if I'm coming from a simply rational perspective. But that's where faith comes in for both theists and atheists, in my opinion - If you can prove to me that God either exists or doesn't exist then I will hop camp with you, and commit to being either an atheist or a theist - until then, you've got to have faith that he either does or doesn't exist! I'll be over here on the fence if anyone needs me

1010011010 · 10-30-2005, 12:20 PM

"Do you believe it's possible to know if gods exist?"
Agnostic: No.
Atheist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic)
Theist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic)

"Do you believe in god?"
Agnostic: (answer depends on whether they believe in god or not)
Atheist: No
Theist: Yes.

"Does god exist?"
Agnostic: I'm agnostic.
Atheist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic)
Theist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic)

flstf · 11-02-2005, 12:10 PM

How can we be so arrogant to even consider that we may be able to answer the question "Is there a God" much less to form an opinion as to whether we believe in he/she/it. Our lack of knowledge about the nature of the universe almost demands that we remain open-minded. Saying that we are too ignorant to form a belief is not just hedging our bets, it is recognizing our reality.

In the case of your dollar wager, If I was forced to make it, I would flip a coin and let the chips fall where they may. Since so many that have come before have believed in some deity or another it seems like it is in our nature to want to invent a creator to explain away the unknown. I find it easy to imagine a universe with a god or without one but not strongly enough to form a belief one way or another. I am too ignorant and have little faith.

Reese · 11-07-2005, 06:11 AM

1010011010 has a point, People seem to think the 3 questions he just asked/answered are the same question. I'd even say that "Do you believe in God?" and "Do you believe God exist?" are two different questions.

To 'believe in' is to "have a firm conviction as to the goodness of something(Dictionary.com)," One would have to believe in the existence before he could believe in the goodness. So, to both of the questions; "I am agnostic." is not a truely valid answer because you don't have to know to believe.

Aurakles · 11-11-2005, 11:28 AM

It's strange, I've been a lurker for quite sometime, but did not decide to register until today and navigated my way to this particularly topic. I say strange because somewhere between my daily cup of ambition and barbed-wired biscuit soundbites, I was queried about my religion. I loathe to call myself an agnostic, though it is how people usually place me. Well...I don't have a belief system per se. I know that's hard for some people to accept or understand, but the word "belief" probably needs to be expanded here. Most, if not all, belief systems are very static and unchanging. Moreover, we are born with them; we begin to learn about them before we become conscious; they are, no matter what we think of them now, an intimate belonging of our being; they inform our consciousness, our language, and our dreams. We can turn away from them or against them, but that would only bind us tightly to a reduced version of them.

With that said, I find that most organized religions are bureaucracies that place a distance between humans and their creator(s), if there is such a thing. I accept all possibilities, but I am also skeptical of all of them, even my own reduced versions of them. I try to understand the world through critical analysis, evaluation, synthesis, and skepticism. Once I achieve a certain understanding and agreement with a given tenet, I practice that. If, for instance, I understand that love is the answer, as cliché and trite as that sounds, then I practice love. Equally important, I am completely comfortable with the ironic, meaning that I accept the notion that uncertainty is the only certainty. Most people cannot accept that and thus cling to some form of certainty, which most religions provide.

I am simply not an evangelist. I am not concerned with corrupting people with my ideologies. I am far too skeptical of my own thinking to market my ideas. If anything, I believe in infinite possibilities, while remaining skeptical of those very possibilities. I am also not concerned with what is before me or what is behind me, but rather with what is within me. I am intimately concerned with growing and learning. I am retroactively introspective, so my ideas vacillate on a daily, if not, hourly basis. My religion is change, and the only thing I am afraid of is losing that potential. I don't want to arrive at 50 with the same ideas I had at 25, for I would have wasted half my life. Besides, if I am concerned with progress, I cannot achieve that without change, and if I cannot change my mind then I cannot change anything.

Sweetpea · 11-11-2005, 09:34 PM

In my opinion and experience, agnostic means that you believe in some power 'out there' not so much in a daily life, but that something else happens to you when you die instead of just pushing up daisies... it's the idea that 'something' is out there, but you are not convinced that it is anything like the religious concept of 'god.'

i would consider myself agnostic. I think it's possible that there is something out there, some higher meaning to the universe, i'm just not sure what it is.

Sweetpea

Sweetpea · 11-11-2005, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diskors

It's strange, I've been a lurker for quite sometime, but did not decide to register until today and navigated my way to this particularly topic.

May i say WELCOME diskors!

Sweetpea

Aurakles · 11-12-2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweetpea

May i say WELCOME diskors!

Sweetpea

Thanks. It's good to be here--so far, so good, and good just keeps getting better.

Aurakles · 11-12-2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moskie

Say you had to bet a dollar on whether god exists.

If there was a "God" and presumably a heaven, I would hope that I could bet more than a dollar. I’m just concerned that there's an IRS in the afterlife and since I kept a receipt for every reality check I've gotten, I'd like to put down more on this bet. Seriously, though, beyond the obvious history and social conditioning, I find that people have a hard time accepting the notion that uncertainty is the only certainty. Plus, humans are to some degree intrinsically self-absorbed with their own reality and do not realize that philosophy (of which religion is just another strand) is a prison and undermines some of the customary things about us. There is dreadful desire in us to teach and not to learn. I find that religion is often a tool of teaching, not only of learning. Sure we learn what we are taught, but often without questioning the very foundation of our teaching or the motivating begin that teaching.

09-14-2005, 05:45 PM	#43 (permalink)
braindamage351 Insane	A real agnostic believes that it as there is no information to go by, it's stupid to make a decision in relation to God. The other definition is just a synonym for indecisive. There's a major difference between "It's unknowable" and "I don't know...maybe..." There's no such thing as an Agnostic Christian, Muslim, or Jew. There IS such a thing as an uncertain Christian, a confused Muslim, and a wavering Jew. But if you're really agnostic then you drop the Christian, Muslim, and Jew parts. How can you be a non-believing believer? Last edited by braindamage351; 09-14-2005 at 05:46 PM.. Reason: forgot to erase something

09-29-2005, 03:31 PM	#46 (permalink)
Fibrosa Insane	There are two types of agnostics: Agnostic fideists and agnostic atheists. If someone says "I'm an agnostic", they pretty much mean they are an atheist. __________________ D'oh!

10-03-2005, 06:32 AM	#51 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	To me - god if he/she exists does very little. Does not affect my morals, does not affect my science, and I'm not interested in he/she/it. Hence I usually tag myself agnostic. I've been through this with others before. Apparently this is an usual position to take on the matter. Last edited by Nimetic; 10-03-2005 at 06:39 AM..

10-03-2005, 06:59 AM	#52 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Of course it's a valid answer. How would it not be? It's more valid than "Yes" or "No", IMO. No one knows for sure whether god exists or not. Everything exists for a reason. I have a hard time believing this omniscient being, bored off his ass, decides to create a universe... or however it's defined in common religion. Then it begs the question, "Where did god come from?" and then things get all jacked up, or you end up with some kind of half-assed thoughtless cop-out such as, "he's always existed". Saying "I'm agnostic" is on par with, "I don't really care to waste my time on it all since no one will ever know, so quit asking me stupid questions." __________________ I love lamp.

10-03-2005, 07:13 AM	#53 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The answer, "I am agnostic", while surely valid, is about as wishy-washy as it gets and as such suggests that you do believe but just can't commit. IF there is a God, he's going to be very pissed at the agnostics when he gets around to meeting them. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-14-2005, 12:53 AM	#41 (permalink)
Genom Screams Upright Location: glendale	I still battle back and forth with what I believe and don't believe. My belief's are based on my feelings and I think that doing that is somewhat wrong. If there is a god, I don't think that god is vengeful. I have no idea what god is. For all I know we can all be god because we can be a manifestation of god and see through god's eyes. it's just too confusing. I don't really think I can ever believe in hell. I think that we shouldn't really decide whether god exists or not. We can ponder and ask questions, but why ask. You have a lifetime to figure things out instead of being subjugated by religion. I'm not saying religion is bad but it does separate humans, which I guess is inevitable. But why not just find out when you die. Why not just enjoy life and it's experiences even if we may exist only once. I don't really believe there is a purpose in life. I only think that we create purposes. If so, let it be that these purposes make us happy. Once again, if there is a god, I don't believe god is vengeful. If god stands for love, he wouldn't hurt us.

09-14-2005, 01:08 AM	#42 (permalink)
Genom Screams Upright Location: glendale	oh might i add....since i'm not sure whether i believe in god or not, i don't think it's a bad idea to question about god. if there is a god, maybe we can begin to discover god in this life whether god is life, us, an entity, a part of us, or not. questions and experiences with different people is the best way to find out i think.

09-29-2005, 02:39 PM	#45 (permalink)
adysav Insane	What I can't believe is that there are still so many idiots in the 21st century. There's a long story written back when people thought thunder was god getting angry. Why does blind faith in this story and all it's associated bullshit matter so much to so many? Some people are saying "ok you don't know whether god exists, but do you believe?". A better question would be: If you don't (and can't) know about the existence of a god, what's the point in wasting your time on it, especially with ridiculous specifics like "you must face mecca" "you must wear such-and-such a garment"?

10-01-2005, 01:47 AM	#47 (permalink)
Francisco Banned	As an agnostic, my answer would be, no I don't believe there is a god, but I also am not certain there is not a god. And the reason I decided not to call myself an atheist is because many, if not most, atheists seem to be god-haters, which implies there is still a belief in god hidden somewhere in their psyche.

10-02-2005, 02:29 AM	#48 (permalink)
adysav Insane	I think most atheists don't fully appreciate their own position is as much a matter of belief as a theist, albeit a slightly less arbitrary one. I would class myself as agnostic, my reason being that I can't possibly make a meaningful decision. The question was just pulled out of thin air by people. If I asked "Do you believe that somewhere out there there is a rock shaped like two giraffes humping?" and the only allowed answers are yes and no, what would your answer be?

10-02-2005, 01:51 PM	#49 (permalink)
Francisco Banned	Regarding the "rock shaped like two giraffes humping." Not to be argumentative, but I took the initial question to mean, do you believe in a supreme being, which of course doesn't specify exactly what qualities you then believe that being to have. So that's not quite the same as asking if you believe, in effect, that the one you have put your faith in looks like some sort of beast with two backs. Although perhaps you have described something that represents a form of animal heaven - which begins to make more and more sense. Perhaps the rock represents the supreme being's logo?

10-03-2005, 03:45 AM	#50 (permalink)
adysav Insane	Maaan, there's no need to take the piss

10-03-2005, 07:19 AM	#54 (permalink)
Kalnaur Psycho Location: Portland, Oregon	For some less learned people, the ones who give you that look of "huh?" when you say "I'm agnostic", simply saying "I believe that one or many could possibly exist" might be a more full response. __________________ PC: Can you help me out here HK? HK-47: I'm 98% percent sure this miniature organic meatbag wants you to help find his fellow miniature organic meatbags. PC: And the other 2 percent? HK-47: The other 2 percent is that he is just looking for trouble and needs to be blasted, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.

10-05-2005, 02:38 AM	#56 (permalink)
Windbreaker Upright	I had this question come up just the other day and my answer was "I'm agnostic. I believe in a higher power but do not have faith in organized religion." So my 2cents is you should clarify on weather or not you believe in a higher power or not. I don't think you can be a agnostic/christian. __________________ Whadata!

10-05-2005, 07:35 AM	#58 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Well, I'm not really saying it's a waste of time as much as I'm saying "We don't know." And if you think about it... we don't. Look at ALL the various religions. If a god is to get pissed at agnostics, then he will be pissed at Buddhists as well. Is that fair to them? Is it wrong to sit there and say to Buddhists, "Your religion is wrong. You don't worship my god, so you're gonna go to hell"? You have a plethora of beliefs and religions, each with a completely different "Theme", I guess you'd call it... but the underlying ideas are the same: be kind to others. If there was a god, there's no way he could be pissed at people for thinking about this. We are human. If there was a god.. he created us. He created our free will. Why would we get punished for it? So basically you're put on this earth with various religions left and right, and if you don't pick the right one, you're fucked? If that's how god works... then I don't want to be a part of him! Personally, I'm aware about all these choices, and I've looked into various religions... I believe that there's something, whether or not it's an actual being is beyond me. If I get punished for my choices, then god will get my middle finger. But I certainly don't believe in the stupid rules that they set.. such as "If you have sex before marriage you're committing a sin." Please.. why would I get punished for something natural? It's just a ridiculous form of control. __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 10-05-2005 at 07:38 AM..

10-05-2005, 07:42 AM	#59 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Interesting that you chose Buddhism as your example. I don't really see Buddhism as a religion per se. Buddhists do not worship any divine being. They follow the path laid down by a mortal. It is the only "religion" for lack of a better word that holds any interest for me and even then, I have a lot of issues with the Buddhist understanding of what happens before and after death... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-05-2005, 07:46 AM	#60 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Yeah, I just realized I put "religion" as opposed to "philosophy" when speaking about the Buddhists But I think the idea holds true. Since they don't worship any deity, are they going to suffer the same consequences as atheists and agnostics, especially if the aforementioned lead a wholesome life? That's the thing about religion that irks me... it just reeks of man, and that's personally why I chose to be agnostic, or at least something other than what man has defined over the years. [edit] To explain further.. all the restrictions and rules that are defined in most religions are things that MAN is concerned about, not something a GOD would be concerned about. __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 10-05-2005 at 07:56 AM..

10-05-2005, 08:01 AM	#61 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	"reeks of man"... When I examine organized religion this is exactly what I come up with as well. For me, once all the morality and rules are stripped away the true purpose of any religion is to answer the two questions to which we have no answer... where do we come from and what happens when we die. The fear of death, or the unease that we feel when we think on death is universal. Religions provide answers and more importantly comfort in the face of this great unknown. I am content in my faith that when I die, there will be nothing. Sure it's scary but it just makes a lot more sense to me than some concept of heaven, shoel (the Jewish afterlife), reincarnation, etc. Why make it more complicated than it need be? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-05-2005, 08:56 AM	#62 (permalink)
Francisco Banned	Why make it more complicated than it need be? Probably because that's what we do. Our brains evolved to solve problems, and made more problems for us at the same time. In a sense, humans are more complicated than they need be. As a group, we have great difficulty living with uncertainty. We're a lot happier with myths as answers than with no answers at all, it seems. Anything to dampen those "scary" feelings. Here's what one of the most famous (or notorious?) agnostic/atheists had to say about that: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx

10-10-2005, 08:05 PM	#63 (permalink)
howdydave Upright Location: Rochester, New York	Yup... The question itself is open to so many different interpretations that if somebody doesn't like the answer, make them tell you their definitions of the terms "believe" and "god." __________________ Dave ©¿©¬ "Noli illigitemi carborundum decendus" "Ego sum quis ego sum quod ut est quicumque ego sum" - Popeye

10-11-2005, 02:38 PM	#64 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	As far as the OP, I agree that is not a sufficient answer as agnosticism usually has to do with knowing if there's a god, not belief in one. For instance, I believe we've been to the moon in rocketships, however, I don't KNOW we've been there, I can't know that as I've never even been to NASA or anywhere near it. I've always searched for a term that describes what I am, but I have yet to find one. I am not agnostic, theist, deist, or atheist. Am I missing anything?

10-11-2005, 03:27 PM	#65 (permalink)
Francisco Banned	I'd say agnosticism involves not knowing and therefor not believing. If you say you believe, but don't really know, you may be like many who have faith based on hope rather than certainty. In fact they may be in the majority of those who profess a belief. And many of those have serious doubts but are hedging their bets - in case there is a God after all who might be a bit pissed at having been disbelieved. So I don't know either what you would call them. Closet agnostics, perhaps.

10-12-2005, 11:26 AM	#67 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Ya that's what I'm saying, like so many words agnostic is misused. Belief or faith =\= knowledge. So...why did you quote me? Are you agreeing?

10-13-2005, 08:27 AM	#68 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	Just to clarify the discussion, I'd like to give a few formal definitions. Some people seem to be mixing up definitions, particularly those of 'agnosticism' and 'skepticism': Agnostic - An agnostic is one who believes there is insufficient evidence to prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of God or gods. Agnostics criticize the theist and the atheist for their dogmatism and their presumption of such knowledge. Athiest - An atheist is one who believes that there exists positive evidence that there is no God. To the atheist, all of existence can be explained naturally rather than supernaturally. An atheist is convinced that all religious belief, evidence, and faith are false. Skeptic - The skeptic neither affirms nor denies God's existence. And in contrast to the (hard) agnostic, the skeptic does not say it is impossible to know. For (hard) agnosticism too is a form of dogmatism -negative dogmatism. The skeptic claims to take a much more tentative attitude toward knowledge. He is not sure whether a man can or cannot know God. In fact, the complete skeptic is not sure of anything. Read more here: http://www.greatcom.org/resources/ha...01/default.htm __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

10-13-2005, 08:29 AM	#69 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	BTW, believing that a particular type of knowledge is impossible (i.e., agnosticism) isn't that strange. Physicists do it all the time when they deal with the heisenberg uncertainty principle. Not knowing what to believe (i.e., skepticism) is also not that strange. Do you know anyone who is on the fence about global warming? __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

10-30-2005, 11:57 AM	#72 (permalink)
Spiker439 Upright	Saying that one is agnostic is most definitely an answer to the question "Do You Believe in God?" There's another question that's equally important, which is "Do you believe there is NO God?". Let's examine how three groups of people, namely atheists, theists, and agnostics would respond to these two questions. Firstly theists - You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out. Yes I beleive in God, no I don't believe that there isn't a God. Atheists - No I don't believe in God, yes I do believe there isn't a God. Agnostics - This is where it gets tricky, because an agnostic is actually answering NO to BOTH questions. Do you believe in God? Well no, because I don't see any avidence that proves that such a being exists. Do you believe there is NO God? Well no, because I see no evidence that leads me to believe that there is certainly NO God in one sense or another. A more "sitting on the fence" answer that agnostics will give is their answer to the question "Does God exist?" An agnostic will simply say I don't know. I threw this in to illustrate the difference between "Believing in God" and saying firmly that he "Exists". There is certainly a difference here. If I'm not sure that god exists, surely I won't believe in him if I'm coming from a simply rational perspective. But that's where faith comes in for both theists and atheists, in my opinion - If you can prove to me that God either exists or doesn't exist then I will hop camp with you, and commit to being either an atheist or a theist - until then, you've got to have faith that he either does or doesn't exist! I'll be over here on the fence if anyone needs me

10-30-2005, 12:20 PM	#73 (permalink)
1010011010 Psycho Location: Virginia Beach, VA	"Do you believe it's possible to know if gods exist?" Agnostic: No. Atheist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic) Theist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic) "Do you believe in god?" Agnostic: (answer depends on whether they believe in god or not) Atheist: No Theist: Yes. "Does god exist?" Agnostic: I'm agnostic. Atheist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic) Theist: (answer depends on whether they acknowledge being agnostic) __________________ *Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions*

11-02-2005, 12:10 PM	#74 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	How can we be so arrogant to even consider that we may be able to answer the question "Is there a God" much less to form an opinion as to whether we believe in he/she/it. Our lack of knowledge about the nature of the universe almost demands that we remain open-minded. Saying that we are too ignorant to form a belief is not just hedging our bets, it is recognizing our reality. In the case of your dollar wager, If I was forced to make it, I would flip a coin and let the chips fall where they may. Since so many that have come before have believed in some deity or another it seems like it is in our nature to want to invent a creator to explain away the unknown. I find it easy to imagine a universe with a god or without one but not strongly enough to form a belief one way or another. I am too ignorant and have little faith.

11-07-2005, 06:11 AM	#75 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	1010011010 has a point, People seem to think the 3 questions he just asked/answered are the same question. I'd even say that "Do you believe in God?" and "Do you believe God exist?" are two different questions. To 'believe in' is to "have a firm conviction as to the goodness of something(Dictionary.com)," One would have to believe in the existence before he could believe in the goodness. So, to both of the questions; "I am agnostic." is not a truely valid answer because you don't have to know to believe. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

11-11-2005, 11:28 AM	#76 (permalink)
Aurakles Crazy Location: behind open eyes	It's strange, I've been a lurker for quite sometime, but did not decide to register until today and navigated my way to this particularly topic. I say strange because somewhere between my daily cup of ambition and barbed-wired biscuit soundbites, I was queried about my religion. I loathe to call myself an agnostic, though it is how people usually place me. Well...I don't have a belief system per se. I know that's hard for some people to accept or understand, but the word "belief" probably needs to be expanded here. Most, if not all, belief systems are very static and unchanging. Moreover, we are born with them; we begin to learn about them before we become conscious; they are, no matter what we think of them now, an intimate belonging of our being; they inform our consciousness, our language, and our dreams. We can turn away from them or against them, but that would only bind us tightly to a reduced version of them. With that said, I find that most organized religions are bureaucracies that place a distance between humans and their creator(s), if there is such a thing. I accept all possibilities, but I am also skeptical of all of them, even my own reduced versions of them. I try to understand the world through critical analysis, evaluation, synthesis, and skepticism. Once I achieve a certain understanding and agreement with a given tenet, I practice that. If, for instance, I understand that love is the answer, as cliché and trite as that sounds, then I practice love. Equally important, I am completely comfortable with the ironic, meaning that I accept the notion that uncertainty is the only certainty. Most people cannot accept that and thus cling to some form of certainty, which most religions provide. I am simply not an evangelist. I am not concerned with corrupting people with my ideologies. I am far too skeptical of my own thinking to market my ideas. If anything, I believe in infinite possibilities, while remaining skeptical of those very possibilities. I am also not concerned with what is before me or what is behind me, but rather with what is within me. I am intimately concerned with growing and learning. I am retroactively introspective, so my ideas vacillate on a daily, if not, hourly basis. My religion is change, and the only thing I am afraid of is losing that potential. I don't want to arrive at 50 with the same ideas I had at 25, for I would have wasted half my life. Besides, if I am concerned with progress, I cannot achieve that without change, and if I cannot change my mind then I cannot change anything. __________________ Our truest life is when we are in our dreams awake.

11-11-2005, 09:34 PM	#77 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	In my opinion and experience, agnostic means that you believe in some power 'out there' not so much in a daily life, but that something else happens to you when you die instead of just pushing up daisies... it's the idea that 'something' is out there, but you are not convinced that it is anything like the religious concept of 'god.' i would consider myself agnostic. I think it's possible that there is something out there, some higher meaning to the universe, i'm just not sure what it is. Sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"