Rdr4evr

If you watch the "conspiracy" video of the WTC crash, it is not far fetched either. I believe the only terrorist that attacked the WTC was the US Govt.

Willravel

Where? What video? Did I miss something?

Rdr4evr

I posted it in another thread on the paronoa board. Do a search and find it.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, check this link for the WTC "conpiracy"

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=67071

Church

Yes.

And I like how you edited your other post.

I see all.

__________________
Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble makers, and neutralize them.

Willravel

Thanks for the link, rdr4evr. And go Church.

pocon1

Church, yes I did edit my other post. that statement was inflammatory and did not contribute to the discussion. I had second thoughts about it, so I went and edited it.

pocon1

See, unlike these two quotes, I tried to make sure that my part of the conversation was not a personal attack. There is a difference between calling bullshit bullshit and calling a person an utter fool or telling them they have a closed mind.

radioguy

That is some messed up stuff. Part of me believes it, part of me doesn't. How and why would a government do something like this? It doesn't make sense to me.

I hate believing something and then seeing something different to what I believe and then start to question what I originaly thought. Part of the video makes sense, part doesn't. Damn, I'm confused!

ShaniFaye

I have now spent the last two hours googling things on this and Im one confused woman

The questions that this does bring up are mind boggling.....I dont know what to think at all

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Willravel

Pocon I did not call you an utter fool. I said you should read the posts before making an utter fool of yourself. This suggests future tense. I was making a suggestion. But you have taken a lot of your credibility away by not taking on the facts head on. You haven't actually taken anything on, besides Church's heory. I can appreciate that it may or may not have a few holes in it, but you should be trying to do something constructive. In your mind, we are all wrong. Prove it to us. Address what's being said. Otherwise, keep off.

pocon1

Willravel, prepare to read a variety of cogent arguments that I believe will disassemble this tissue paper theory. I have spent the last several hours doing yardwork and noodling through the various discussions on this page. Here are the results. Enjoy

Fallacies of the video.

1. no wreckage. Fire is hot. Aluminum does not handle heat well. Planes are made of aluminum. Stuff a plane into a building made of cinderblock, brick, and steel, and follow it with a lot of jet fuel. The building acts as an oven, concentrating the heat. Most of the wreckage is thereby consumed in the pentagon oven.
2. “sounded like a missile". According to the flash page, some witnesses said it sounded like a missile. FAA says the plane was traveling at 530 miles per hour, several hundred feet off the ground. Doppler effect would dictate that when a person actually heard the plane from less than a thousand yards away, the sound would be a shriek. I mean, who has really heard a jet flying at 530 mph? From a few hundred yards away? So it is a sound few have actually heard. Also, the sound would taper off to a jet rumble, except that it was cut off when the plane entered the pentagon.
3. The security camera images. I do not know about this camera, but many cameras take pics every second or two. Now if the plane were traveling at 530 mph, it would cover 277 ft per second. The plane itself is only 155 feet long (JANE’S). Theoretically, it could have come in between video snaps. This also depends on the amount of space covered by the camera. Either way, any image would probably be very blurry. Also, was this camera recording digitally or direct to video? Because if I understand right, a digital image can get pretty obscured if the image changes quickly and dramatically.
4. The power of the nosecone. Someone (I forget who) suggested that a nosecone could not puncture through several walls. I think it could, if the plane was traveling at 530 mph. I have heard stories of pieces of straw imbedded in telephone poles during 600 mph winds from tornadoes. I have seen lead bullets punch through wood, when you could not hammer that lead through the wood. I have seen people break bricks with their bare hands and a fast enough karate chop. I think a plane traveling that speed could punch neatly through a wall.

One more point I would like to make is that many of you people actually have more faith in the federal govt than I do. You believe that the feds are capable of killing thousands of people (including the WTC) hushing hundreds of witnesses, quieting hundreds of firefighters, law enforcement officials, and military officials, and doing it all with a straight face. All to start attacking islam and the middle east. In other words, Bush went from being a drunk frat boy cheerleader whose family name got him into and through college, who shirked his military duty, and he has know turned into this devious mastermind capable of killing thousands of his own people? This is the same government that cannot control iraq, that couldn’t kill castro, etc… See, us Americans are not very subtle. This does not mean capable, but certainly not subtle. Instead of arranging a coup in Iraq, we blow everything to hell. We smash Afghanistan. We reject the Kyoto accords instead of working to a compromise. Even our last sex scandal involved an intern and a freakin’ cigar. At least Kennedy had a movie star. I don’t think our leaders are capable of doing something this devious and sophisticated. Thank you for your time.

OpieCunningham

Sounds about right.

The only question I really have is why the damage area is so minimal. That rendered pic of a 757 and the Pentagon shows that the plane is relatively HUGE (assuming it is to scale, and it does appear so based on window port size). The tail alone is almost the height of the building.

But you can see in the pics that window areas just feet from the entry point are intact.

pocon1

Willravel, to paraphrase what you said, if I had read the posts, it would have prevented me from making an an utter fool of myself. See, your implication was that I had not read the posts, therefore I was a fool. So yes, you called me an utter fool.

Willravel

Fallacies of your argument:
1. If there was a fire substantial enough to melt aluminum to the point that there is basically nothing left but the nose of the plane would have melted the subframe of the building in all three buildings. This was NOT the case. The frame was hit in the first building, therefore it colapsed, but there was little heat generated by the fire. Seperate interviews done by local papers of the firemen said that they put out a medium fire and there was little damage done by the fire to the buildings. Now what you need to understand is that at the World Trade Center, the fire produced by the plane fuel burning was so hot that it melted the frames of the building for over 13 floors in both buildings. Heat of this kind would have done a great amount of damage. At the pentagon, there was grass that wasen't even singed as close as 100 feet from the impact. I don't think you can explain this, but you're welcome to try.

2. A plane of the size of a 757-200 could not fly that fast that close to the ground. The plane simply does not have the capabilities of flying that fast that low. It can reach speed near that in the air, but the terminal velocity coupled with heavy air resistance the closer you get to thje ground basically makes that impossible. People don't know what missles sound like in the US, unless they're military. I really don't care what they said about the sound.

3.Doesn't make any difference really. I wasn't going off the still. It's far to blurry.

4. Yes, but not that small of a hole. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that the cone was just fine because the plane was going so fast, but the cockpit crumbled immediatally. The cockpit is STRONGER then the nose. Therefore, if the nose was strong enough to puncture the buildings, then the cockpit was as well. The hole would be much larger if the cockpit was intact. That's the bottom line. Also, in all the crashes I've ever seen, and believe that I've been doing a lot of research lately, the nose always crumbles. No matter the speed, no matter the direction of impact. I urge you to call an expert to verify this, because you probably won't beleive me. I have.

If it were so devious and sophisticated, why are we talking here? They DID make mistakes. Serious mistakes. The facts are at the countrys fingertips, but any good magician or trickster can tell you that the best tool they have is missdirection. Iraq and the Taliban/Alqueda/other terrorist groups have kept the Americans scared shitless and at the edge of our seats. Everyone mourned and we jumped head first into the hunt. We didn't look back. Now that the war basically took a dump on us, we are breathing for a second and everything is starting to come into focus.

No you are not paraphrasing what I said, you are missinterpreting what I said. There's a difference. I was saying that you should read the rest of the posts before you say something that contradicts the posts, and then you'd make a fool of yourself. Seeing as you have now read the posts and watched the flash movie, I'd say you are no longer in that danger. Understand? So no I did not call you an utter fool. Further discussion of the utter fool topic should be moved from the paranoid thread to the knowledge thread. We can finish it there if you still don't believe me.

whocarz

What purpose would the government have to launch a clandestine attack against it's own citizens? Give me something so we can debate. Otherwise, this thread is a waste of time.

__________________
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Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Willravel

We have been trying to figure that out. That is the final question of the thread. We are still having trouble with people believing the facts, though. After we address that, we can combine our efforts and work twards the goal of reasoning. I don't think something this important is a waste of time.

Cynthetiq

trying not to threadjack... but basically cribbed from JFK, as I thought about the what does the government have to gain...

• cold war is over. There is no more "enemy" of communists who live "over there" that may come "over here" to bomb us and threaten our way of life.
  
• military has been downsizing for years, military spending is down. companies are consolidating to save costs on R&D and production.
  
• economy is down. war generally is good for economies as goods have to be produced creating jobs and tax revenue.

Willravel

This is probably the best reason for what happened. Thanks Cynthetiq!

whocarz

So why go through will 9/11? Why not just say that x country has WMD, like oh, I don't know, lets say Iraq, and go with that. Hell, there's plenty of countries that aren't exactly our friends, take your pick. I mean, what you're proposing is that our government is so staggeringly evil, it boggles the mind. When the Nazis staged an attack on a German facility, saying it was the work of the Polish, the only people they killed were a couple dozen ethnic Poles that they rounded up to be the Polish army. I'm sorry that I don't buy into your cute little conspiracy theory.

__________________
If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

Willravel

It wasn't enough over the 12 years of sanctions that the UN and America placed on Iraq. The situation had to have a catilist. Something had to light the fires beneith the American people. BOOM! An attack on American soil.
Why Iraq? Oil!
"...I don't buy into your cute little conspiracy theory." 'Cute'? Listin, you are making really poor arguments. The only cute thing on this forum is your attempts to talk on the level of the rest of us. So, next time, before you start to think about trying to belittle others with little or no reason, try to write like a big boy? M'kay?

OpieCunningham

No worries. If we're going to talk about the possibility that a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon, we'd have to talk about why common knowledge says it did.

Willravel

Sorry to everyone else about that last post, but it made me mad. I hope people will stop putting little comments that are dissrespectful and rude. This is a forum. It's a public medium for open discussion. It's not a place to hide behind your anonymity and bad mouth others. This thread is about figuring out the facts and how they effect you and me.

pocon1

I think the new paradigm is that war does not actually make money for the economy. Under Clinton's term, or, if you prefer, under a period of congress for 8 years controlled by the republicans and newt gingrich, our country had unprecedented levels of prosperity. Everyone made money. Cheney, Bush, Senior Bush, you, me, your parents. and as far as war stimulating technology, war did not lead to the massive growth of the Internet. It was after the cold war and before 9/11 that the dow quintupled. So I don't buy the good for economy theory.

So try to give us a real reason why our govt would do this.

pedro padilla

poor george. president by daddy´s supreme court decision. and no respect. no klout.
no chance in hell for his buddys to implement their nefarious schemes of control under the suspicious eyes of a dubious majority. how convenient and timely were these "gasp" terrorist attacks for this basically untrusted and dirty (actually fuckin fithy) crew of ex oil execs. damn, absolute unquestioned authority. all wrapped in a flag. where do you think gw would be today without 9 11? if you really do not suspect that there was some kinda shady shit goin down i gotta bridge i´ll sell you.

pentagon? missile. twin towers? saudi military coordinated between bush and saudi royal families with the carlyle group and halliburton taking care of details and counting the cash.

zenmaster10665

Well said.

__________________
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He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

zenmaster10665

Agreed. This may have been true in the WWI and WWII years, when production of steel and other weapon material was badly needed, however, I don't think that this holds in the 21st century.

We are not building new factories and hijacking others for munitions and armor output anymore.

The military spending thing, I can buy....but still, I dont think any US leader and cabinet are a) as maniacal or b) organised enough to pull something like this off.

Sorry, but this doesnt make sense either. If the US government was able to set up an elaborate scheme using the Saudi military, Saudi royals and two private-sector corporations to destroy the twin towers, why would they be so lax in their attention to detail with the attack on the Pentagon? Seems a bit silly to just shoot a missle at a building when you are able to stage two fully-fueled passenger airlines at the Twin Towers.

Or are you saying that never happened? Did the Saudi military create two jets exactly like the American Airlines jets for this purpose, then fly them in a suicide mission into the twin towers, where, shortly after an implosion of the building was set off?

Sounds more than just a little far-fetched for me. Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Conspiracy theories abound. They always do.

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

scout

Not that I don't believe the government isn't capable of such a thing, to do it in 9 months is sort of a stretch. GWB was in office right at 9 months before all this happened. Hell it takes over a month to get a replacement Social Security card, and thats just a small piece of thick paper with a little ink dabbed over the top lol. The Bush Administration had already inherited a full plate of things to keep them occupied,including a recession. The odds of pulling something off with the huge logistics that would be required for an operation like this without one leak, and to do it in nine months, are so astronomical it would be all but impossible. Now I in no way shape or form claim to know what happened for certain, and there are some very interesting irregularities being brought to light, but for our governement/ GWB to pull something off this catastrophic just to go to war against Iraq isn't something I think they [government/GWB] are capable of. I do however, think there are some interesting questions that need to be answered. Until there is positive "without a doubt" proof our government was involved in some way I have to trust our elected officials, after all it's America and people are presumed innocent until proven guilty, and that simple courtesy extends all the way to the top of the food chain including the president.

nothingx

What I don't understand is "why?"

OK, let's assume it was a missle... why would someone intentionally shoot themseleves? Mind you, pentagon city is where all our military intelligence is and someone who would make the decision to have a missle shot to cover something else, would also have their office sitting somewhere in that building. (Not likely)

Next, if that wasn't an airplane hitting the pentagon, then where did it go? If a farmer can find a crashed UFO in the middle of the desert in Nevada, someone somewhere would've seen a fighter jet shoot down that air plane.

Seriously, it doesn't make sense that there was some kind of bogus story going on here, and the analysis of wreckage pictures does nothing to support a bogus story to me either. I'm no expert at looking at damage to buildings. I wouldn't know if it was an airplane, missile, or dump truck thrown from 20 yards. Get an expert to say there is no way in hell a passenger plane could've done that, and then, maybe this story has some credibility.

scout

And if there was a conspiracy, the Democrats would have to be involved in some way shape or form. I guarantee John Kerry would be shouting it from the highest rooftop about right now. There's just know way the government could pull something like that off without both sides knowing at least something about it.

Sargeman

I know this has happened a few years ago so my mind may be cloudy. Didn't Al-Quaida and/or the Taliban eventually take credit for masterminding and then initiating these attacks?


I guess they (the Bush's) also planned the attacks on the WTC back when Clinton was in office. BTW I didn't know that dubya's dad was on the supreme court and could appoint people to the presidency.

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pedro padilla

well sargent guy, look at the facts. What? none o this coulda been planned while cigar smokin bill was in office? yeah sure, they was hibernatin. musta been that fuckin arab kidneyless,cave dwelling,no telephone, criminal masteremind. shaken not stirred.
as far as the pentagon, how bout them fuel loaded wings? i would think they woulda done some kinda noticeable damage to the right and left side of that suspiciously small hole where allegedly this terrorist attack went down. yeah, one more paranoid conspiracy theorist. but c´mon, explain...http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/Eastman/m18h05.html

Sargeman

Dude, I don't even know if that's sarcasm or you're being serious. Facts? Huh? What? Are you saying he was hibernating? Or was that sarcasm? "musta been that fuckin arab kidneyless,cave dwelling,no telephone, criminal masteremind. shaken not stirred." What the hell does that even mean?

If you're referring to the idea that Bin laden was in some cave before and during 9/11.... then show me these facts.

Dude, I'm not even questioning the pentagon attack. When they were showing the footage of it, what little there was, I questioned where all the airlplane parts were. I'm talking about the WTC.

__________________
...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

Willravel

We may not have the expertise to know the exact damage a plane would cause to a building like this, but I think we can all agree that airplane fuel is quite explosive when ignited. As a matter of fact, this plane had a lot of fuel. The fuel ignited. Obviously, if the fuel were to ignite, there would be quite an explosion, and then quite a fire. Now go back and look at the picture. Also go to the link above. I've tried to formulate arguments against this. I can't explain all of the evidence that is right in front of me. I wish it wasn't true. Believe me, I'd rather live in a country where my goverment can trust the people to be rational about whatever truths there are. I can't. They don't trust us, or they don't want us to know a truth that would bring to light horrible actions.

pedro padilla

bin laden is a fuck. but a very convenient fuck. show me where he takes credit for any of this madness. Its pretty easy to find where he says he had no idea but he´s happy as hell that it happened. shit, who the fuck invented this guy? the anti russian freedom fighter buddy of the peace loving republican natural gas pipeline crew. shaken not stirred, bond, james bond. are you really that gullible?

pocon1

So some of you are saying that bush is behind all of this. When Bush was just a little shrub, he was a cheerleader in prep school. Then he went to college, where his family name got him in and through school. Then he started a business looking for oil in texas. He could not find any, (In Texas!) so the company failed. Then he tried again, failed too. Meanwhile, he got a dui and was later accused of snorting coke as a young adult. Then he organizes a group where he is a minority shareholder that buys a baseball team. Then his family name buys him a governorship, then the presidency. Then in a nine month period, his iq shoots up 200 points, he develops machiavellian mad crazy skills, and murders several hundred Americans (or thousands, if you add the wtc).

So is this the Bush we are talking about? The one who displayed moderate competency for the first 40 years of his life? Cause I don't buy it.

pocon1

Also, I think less damage was done to the Pentagon because it is a military building, and its standards are higher. It is our head of the military, so it would not be completely crushed by a standard attack. Isn't this the reason for the rings of hallways, to isolate wartime damage? Also, notice that when most missiles hit buildings, they explode, but not in massive fireballs. Plane fuel burns, missiles explode. Look at the Oklahoma bombing. I don't think the US uses incendiary missiles. If we have to hit a hardened target and punch a hole through it, we use high explosives. If we hit a soft, flammable target, we use incendiary bombs. To deliver enough incendiary material in a missile would be cost prohibitive. Much more power can be put in a smaller missile with high explosives, so that is what we use.

I'm hitting home runs, give me another conspiracy theory. I'm typing with one hand behind my back and chewing bubble gum. Can I get a "hell yeah!"

Church

Dude, the president actually makes very few plans. All he does is ok things so they can go through. I'm sure foreign affairs/military leaders came up with it.

__________________
Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble makers, and neutralize them.

Rdr4evr

He obviously is not that genius, considering we have discovered all sorts of loop holes in his attacks and we will soon discover all of his diabolical conspiracies .

saut

I've just read the entire thread, and while I don't really have much to say for either side that hasn't already been said, I have made a few observations.



It seems to me that what you believe about what happened on 9/11 has a lot to do with your political beliefs. Bush supporters will stick behind their man, whereas those of us who are none too fond of GWB will attempt to make him out to be as maniacal/plotting/negative as possible. It's only natural, I suppose, but it definitly subtracts much of our ability to discuss this subject rationally.

That said, I do not believe any single political party is behind this. It's not a Republican conspiracy, nor is it a Democratic conspiracy. Is it Bush? I doubt it. I think that if anything, he's only a puppet for those who I think may be behind this. I'm tempted to say those people are Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, etc, but that seems too obvious. Maybe what we've been told is correct, and it's the Islam fundamentalists. I really don't know.

Here are the reasons I think certain groups would benefit from 9/11.

Islam Fundamentalists -- The obvious choice, really. Who else is nutty enough to do something like this? Occam's Razor says these are the people behind it, but I always thought Occam's Razor was BS.

Those in favor of globilization -- Create an attack on the US to create a cause for war in the middle east. Iraq happens to be in a very good geographical position for purposes of launching attacks into the surrounding areas.

Larry Silverstein, owner of the World Trade Center -- He gained 3.2 billion dollars to rebuild the WTC (well, not the WTC, but a new building(s) in place of the towers).


I didn't say any of this as well as I wanted to, but that's an attempt anyway.

the_marq

Here's what I think...
---
A 757 did NOT crash into the Pentagon. I just can't see it from the pictures in this thread, there should be more fire and more chunks of airplane lying around.

The missing American Airlines flight was identified as having been hijacked and was subsequently shot down by US planes. In a panic after having shot down a planeload of Americans someone had to come up with a cover story. So, they crashed something (not a 757) into the Penatgon, in a nonvital area, to explain the missing plane and the people on board that plane.
----

But what do I know? I'm just a Canadian.

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