Strange Famous

I would like to make a general point in relation to my own experiences of comments made to/about me on this board.

As bizzare as it may seem to some people, I - a strongly committed feminist - have been accused on multiple occasionsof being a sexist on this board.

The kind of things I do and believe in are:

- I stand up and offer my seat to a woman on a bus if no other seats are available
- I hold open doors for women
- If I'm driving and I can see a woman driver waiting at a junction I'll stop and let her out
- I do my best to moderate my fucking language when in the presence of a woman
- If with a group of friends on a night out, I wouldnt let a female walk home alone, but would walk with her, or wait for her taxi/lift etc. I live in a town were a couple of years ago five young women were taking off the streets and murdered - I dont claim to be superman, but I think the realistic situation (and it shouldnt have to be that way) is that my presence would make a women safer on the streets at night.


I dont do these things because I think that women cannot open doors for themselves or can bare standing on a bus journey less than I can, but because I happen to believe in some old fashioned values and treating the female gender with respect.

Some of the politically correct mob believe things like this are offensive, that it is somehow patronising to do things like hold open doors, help a woman lift something heavy in the car park of a superstore, etc...

In the real world it is my belief that these behaviours are seen as normal, rational and positive

I wonder what thoughts other people have.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

Chivalry and feminism aren't synonymous. Chivalry is about courting and protecting women whereas feminism is about fighting for true gender equality. They're not always mutually exclusive, but they generally have different aims.

An act of chivalry would be standing up as a woman leaves the dinner table, but that does nothing at all to support her equality. Confronting your boss because of unequal pay between men and women in your office would be feminism and probably chivalry. Voting for women's suffrage would be feminism but not chivalry. See what I mean?

Xerxys

Yes you are being patronizing. I hold doors open too, but the difference between you and me is I hold it open for every gender involved and only long enough for them to get out of the way. The only situation I would give you a seat in the bus is if you have some sort of stroke or are really old and even that is rare because if you were strong enough to get on the bus then you can stand the rest of the way.

Women are just other people that I happen to want to have sex with but it's not going to happen if I hold the door open for you so essentially they are just other people!

Baraka_Guru

One of the fundamental issues of feminism is striving to regard women and their accomplishments for who and what they are. Read this as: it shouldn't matter if a woman is female, a mother, has breasts, etc. She accomplished these things as a human being, yet we tend to focus on her accomplishing goals despite these things as though the most fundamental state for a woman is being a female/mother, rather than being a person first.

We do not focus so much on the status of men. This is why it's a feminist issue. Strange, the practices and comments you've listed above would grate on the nerves of many feminists. This is mainly because you haven't listed anything about respecting women in any other way. Are these really your priority when it comes to women...as a self-proclaimed feminist?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SecretMethod70

Exactly. There's nothing inherently wrong with holding the door open for someone, but the question is are you doing it because you're being generally polite (do you hold doors open for people regardless of gender?) or are you doing it because she is a woman and needs to be treated as somehow special. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

LordEden

Yeah, all the things you listed, I do myself everyday. I don't consider myself a feminist, nor will I ever. I treat women differently from men. Granted, I treat them better than I do men, I still treat them differently. I go out of my way to help a female out more than I will a male. Call it old fashioned, Chivalry, good manners, or southern hospitality, but that's how I act and I am not going to change any time soon.

I dislike it when a man claims to be a feminist, I ran into that in college ALOT. Most of the time they just wanted to bang angry college chicks.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Shauk

I'm only chivalrous when I'm trying to make a good impression, to be bluntly honest.

Otherwise I'm probably just a jerk.

I don't think that makes me sexist though, I just don't care to open doors all day for people who are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.

Plan9

Oh, I'm not even gonna touch this thread.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

CinnamonGirl

Um...the female brain in that picture doesn't have sex OR books. Boo.



I used to think opening the door for me was silly... then I went out with a guy who didn't open doors. Then again, I think it's just POLITE to hold the door open for someone, regardless of gender.

That goes for pretty much everything on the list... don't do it because she's a woman. Do it because you're a nice person.

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

Willravel

I know a few women that are into ball sports. KA-ZING!

Shauk

oh also, i think feminism needs to die.

they can vote, serve in the military, and are covered against discrimination. It's a done deal, move on to the next cause.

Males need representation now more than women at this point. To reference..
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ican-male.html

Willravel

Feminism will exist as long as sexism (against women) exists.

Strange Famous

I support equal pay and equal rights... there are many area's in which women are exploited and mistreated by men - in countries like The Kingdom, Somalia, and Afghanistan, and even still in countries such as the UK and the US.

Women are still paid less for doing the same jobs, there is still a glass ceiling. (how many female senators or MPs are there compared to males for example? how many female presidents has America has?) A rabid hooligan like Chris Brown can brutally attack even a well known celebrity and get nothing but a community service order. Statistics show that 1 in every 4 women in their lives will be the victim of a serious sexual assault. Until society can address issues like this - feminism is very much required.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

ratbastid

The last frontier of sex discrimination is in the workplace. There are still fields that are WAY under-represented by women, both in hiring and in training. Pay disparities still exist, and there are heights of corporate accomplishment that are still way less accessible to women than to men.

A black president doesn't end racism. Carly Fiorino's career (such as it is!) doesn't end sex discrimination.

Shauk

guys are underrepresented as secretaries and flight attendants, paid less than female porn actresses.

I don't really have a point, i'm just proving that tossing out claims in to a thread doesn't address the issue properly.

the point of a moment is to get the government to put stuff in writing. It's in writing, beyond that, it's up to the person being wronged to have justice delivered, if they aren't taking advantage of what's in writing, who's fault is that really?

The_Dunedan

This is because -thinking- of yourself as feminist and -being- feminist are two different things. You spent the bulk of your contribution to a thread in Tilted Sports bemoaning the presence of women fighters in sanctioned MMA and boxing bouts because;

1: You were convinced that they were being forced to fight.
2: You were convinced that nobody, women included, wanted to see women with cuts and scars and cauliflower ears, and that this aesthetic was reason enough to ban women from participating in martial arts or combat sport.
3: You were convinced that women were incapable of handling themselves in a bout, even against other women.

Your entire position came down to "That a'int fer wimminfolks."

Chivalry is not wrong. Holding open doors, giving up seats (esp. if the lady is preggers) are not bad things. Your apparent and stated perception of women as vaguely incompetent, overtly and overly fragile, and automatically needing protection from a Big Strong Man (protection from things the Big Strong Man perceives as threats, not the woman in question) are frankly silly. Gini Lau, Michelle Krasnoo, and Gina Guererro do not need your protection. You are the most annoying kind of sexist; the patronizing Knight In Shining Armor Wannabe who tries to deflect criticism of his actions and attitudes by saying "You're wrong, I'm not acting sexist, I'm a feminist for Christ's sake, but women have no place in Indy-500 racing!" This is no different from the racist who denies his racism by saying that "I'm no racist, some of my best friends are black people, but they really need to ban the sale of those 40oz Malt Liquor drinks, the niggers just drink 'em up."

Baraka_Guru

When conversation calls for it, I usually tell people the following.... and this is directed at the thread: feminism is one of the most misconstrued ideas of the 20th--and now 21st--century.

It is a complex and often convoluted idea that has more than one vein, like many other major ideas and movements. And, of course, people tend to focus on or only hear about the more controversial or sensational aspects, rather than the ones that would be considered essential or more complex yet important.

And so we move forward, many of us still thinking that feminism has won and should finally fade away, or that men cannot be feminists.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ratbastid

Look at your examples, though. Where a woman is valued is in a position where she serves others, usually men.

Willravel

I'm afraid not. The last frontiers of sex discrimination, long after legal mechanisms are put in place for the workplace, will be in houses or worship. It will be in churches and mosques, which have constitutionally protected freedoms in many countries, both third world and developed.

Paul's letter to the Ephesians about wives submitting to their husbands will never be removed from the Bible just as Muhammad's Sura 4 of the Qur'an will always say that women are to be obedient to their husbands. No matter the progressive arguments, apologism, and compromising, those verses are riddled across holy texts and dogma. Sexism will exist as long as there are religious and ideological dogmas that involve sexism.

filtherton

I don't think the developing world got the memo about the last frontiers of sex discrimination.

Baraka_Guru

Isn't that the front line?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Hey, turns out that comes after the "food" and "genocide" and "disease" things.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

These are all somewhat connected to women's rights.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Shauk

I think you guys are missing the point. Instead of having segregated rights movements, it just needs to flat out be a human rights movement. human, the catch all umbrella of equality.

Plan9

According to our homeboy Maslow? I dunno. I see civil rights as a high end luxury goods from the social industry, a capstone product of society.

Throughout history, we've constantly redefined what is human, what is a citizen, who has what rights, etc. Like Mrs. Jean Underwood said... although the number and types of variables increases along the time line, the axioms themselves never seem to change. Might makes right, blah-blah-blah.

HAHAHAHA. No really... in many cases, the only things that holds us together is the things that keep us apart.

...

I think we're jacking thread. Skipper, fix the rudder.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Pop psychology aside, one of the undercurrents as to why developing countries have a host of problems with regard to food security, monetary resources, education, health & safety, etc., is related to the various rights and privileges denied to women and girls.

And Plan9, this is all relevant, as the focus of the thread is how we regard and treat women as separate and distinct for their status as being women. This treatment can be viewed as good (and sometimes problematic); and as we know, this treatment can be as bad as dehumanizing.

It would be that simple if human rights issues weren't such a disproportionate concern for women and girls.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SecretMethod70

Indeed, improvements to the rights of women are an important part of improving economies in general.

Development as freedom - Google Books

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Plan9

Certainly. My extremely limited understanding of the history of western civilization seems to show that civil rights develop in time periods where there aren't more pressing matters (famine, plague, the Vandals) and when the form of government is both conducive and accepting to the related unrest.

I read somewhere recently that the best form of birth control for women in Afghanistan is to make it to the 8th grade. Good stuff.

Using modern third world countries as an example of today's civil rights struggle is completely rational... but it is my feeling that their situation only rides in the time machine of yesteryear that we (the US) just emerged from ourselves in the last century. I see a pattern.

It's easy for everybody to talk about how much progress we've made... but one need only look at the US Supreme Court load from the 1960s (Loving v. Virginia, Griswold v. Connecticut) to see how fucked up we were and for how long... and how we still have so much more to fix (Prop 8).

Civil rights may be in the problem space of a country's issues... they rarely seem to be in the solution space.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

ratbastid

Okay, okay. The last frontier that matters.

Ooooooh, snap.

---------- Post added at 08:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------

To have equal rights, you have to deal first with inequality. As white men, you and I have precious little to complain about, and a lot to be responsible for. If there's going to be equality, it's going to take us reaching down from our pedestal and pulling others up to our level.

There are people who don't want to deal with that. People for whom the whole notion that white males are a privileged class is impossible to accept (probably because it means relinquishing the privilege). As a society, dealing with that is optional, and we choose not to deal with it at the cost of forever having divisions in our society. There are people who are good with that. I'm not one of them.

SecretMethod70

Strange, I thought of you when I saw this (nsfw)...

http://20.media.tumblr.com/Gt7MwiARN...hNfHo1_500.jpg

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Stare At The Sun

Exactly.

Treat everyone with dignity and respect.
Treat everyone equally.

You can do no greater good than that.

Women don't deserve to be treated differently.

Would you help a man lift something into his car that was to heavy for him? Or would you pass on by?

As secret said, Benevolent sexism is still sexism.