Hektore

I have been convinced from the beginning, that in this particular matter, the value of what's important to me is minuscule and/or nonexistent compared to the value of what is important to her.
I honestly had not thought of asking both her parents, because her father is my main concern. This has nothing to do with head of household or ownership principles, but everything to do with their extremely close relationship. The relationship she has with her mother hardly compares. But since you mention it, I think including both her parents is a much better idea.
If he does say no, I would very much like to know why. so his concerns can addressed. As I said before, it would not necessarily prevent me from proposing, it may alter the time-line I have in mind if he has a concern that I have not thought of which, though I believe is unlikely, is a definite possibility. Also, if he does disapprove, and we elope that could have terrible consequences for their relationship, something I'm attempting to avoid.
I can assure both of you this is the last thing that I would want to do. My motivation here lies only in making the joining of our families as joyous as I possibly can for all those involved, not for it's own sake, but in the interest of making it as joyous as possible for her. If her parents have concerns that I can address, then I presume this would remove a lot of undue stress on her (and our) relationship with them. This has nothing to do with infantilizing, commodifying her in any way (or romancing her just for romance's sake for that matter).

I realize what is right for us is far more important than what is right for them, but that doesn't mean what is right for them (or my parents for that matter) is not important. If they have concerns that I cannot (or am not willing to) resolve, I'm still going to ask her. These stresses would have arisen without prior discussion with them anyway. Nothing short of her (or my) will is going to prevent this from happening in the absolute sense, but in the relative where/when sense their opinion may carry enough weight for me to shuffle things around a bit, if in the end I feel it will make things better for her. I think the whole idea here is a bit old-fashioned, which is one of the reasons I brought this question to the TFP - to get differing, well thought out, opinions. I couldn't expect that from any of my friends or family around here. I likely would have been publicly labeled a bum for even considering not asking for explicit permission. As an example, it's not uncommon around here to find a group of elderly women discussing how it's absolutely despicable that women today want to work outside the home, and how we'd be better off as a society if they didn't. This place is awfully backward sometimes, so much so that I'm afraid of the things I don't even realize.

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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

allaboutmusic

If that is what is expected where she and her parents are from, I think it would be respectful to honour them as you have suggested. It should be possible to do so in a way that everyone is happy with.

levite

It's a bit old-fashioned, but it can be romantic. I would defnitely ask her dad for his "blessing" and not his "permission." It's more respectful to your honey, and plus, if you ask his permission and he says "no," you're screwed.

A.

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Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

host

This is how this ritual is done "properly" by one young man who's wedding I recently attended. Your situation, IMO, is so far flung from the actual entire courting ritual, so as you can make it up, as you go along.

Personally, I think all of it is a ridiculous anachronism, since we've evolved away from it, why even flirt with parts of it? Women are not male "property" in the US, anymore!

After meeting a young lady at his church, and developing a friendship with her over the course of a year, always spending time with her in the company of others, visiting her family, and becoming acquainted with her father, the young man I know approached her father and asked him for permission to court his daughter. Her father gave permission with the following conditions. There must be know handholding or other physical contact, no kissing unless and until the young man married his daughter, and no unescorted time spent together. They always arranged to have a "minder", a sibling of hers or a parent or friend along, whenever he picked her up in his car.

After a year of "courting", the young man asked the young lady's father for permission to marry his daughter, and it was granted. I attended their wedding last year, and after the father "gave" his daughter over to the young man, the officiating pastor announced that the couple was about to exchange their first kiss. I wasn't moved to feel I was witnessing something romantic, rather it seemed more like "ownership" of his daughter had passed from the father to the young man.

I thought that the whole ritual, and the courting restrictions, the father's "authority" were "creepy", and I had a similar reaction when I began to read your post. It's 2008, let us move forward, there are good reasons for the changes that have taken place in the "liberation" of women in our society.

If you must, I agree with asking for her father's "blessing" in advance, but even that strikes me as paying lipservice to a patriarchy that women have mostly escaped from now, after much hardship, temporary setbacks, and sacrifice.

We are not that far removed from a time when families met when their children wer still very young to enter into neogations to bind the children to marry at some future date. Does that custom seem "romantic"?

Hektore

/Raises the dead

We decided to live a life without the internet at home, or television for that matter, and thus I've lost my TFP for a long while. I didn't want to leave this hanging, even though it seems to be too little, too late. I want to wrap this up now, and return to a life of posting, since I've discovered the free Wi-Fi at the local library.

The thought expressed by Charlatan of infantilization of said future wife completely undermined my train of thought of showing respect for her father. It suddenly became apparent just how disrespectful it was to my potential fiancee's autonomy. I wanted her father's approval, but not to the extent that I was willing to forego my plans with his daughter simply because he objected to them. I have always said that being honest is more important that being polite and to really 'put my money where my mouth is', I decided to forgo the antiquated ritual of paternal consent.

I asked her, about 4 months after my original post, she accepted and not once did the issue come up, until the next weekend when we made the long journey to her hometown. Apparently, it was not as important to her as I initially anticipated. We told her parents, they seemed genuinely accepting, if not outright pleased(they're both tough reads, and i'm not very good at reading people anyhow). After our weekend I found out from her that whilst I was out of the house she talked with her dad and he claimed he was grateful that I did not ask, because the whole ritual would have just been very awkward to him, and he was at least pleased that I did have some concern for his opinion in the matter. +1 for fate (& TFP) I guess.

__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game.

genuinegirly

Glad to hear that it worked out. Good to see you back.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

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Cynthetiq

congrats! good to see you back as well....

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Slims

Don't ask for his permission unless you are willing to not marry her if he says not.

---------- Post added at 11:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 PM ----------

oops, too late. sorry.

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Sue

x2

Permission makes it sound like it's back in the Victorian days when you come a callin' on your girl.

Oh poop. I just read the OP's new post. Well, congrats anyway!

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Teg yw edrych tuag adref.

Charlatan

Congratulations.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Xerxys

Congrats ... a year late.

Psycho Dad

First.... Congratulations

This is very interesting. I never saw this a year ago, and at that time my son was going about asking his future father-in-law for the permission to marry his daughter. My wife and I saw it kind of charming that he wanted to do this. However we were somewhat concerned with the ceremony where the father gave his daughter to our son and passed her virginity on to him. On the one had we respected the wishes of our daughter-in-law's family, but troubled that her father felt he could pass control to another person simply because they had a penis.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.