pai mei

I have put this quote at the end of a thread , but it deserves it's own :


"Owners of capital will stimulate working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable.The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalized, and State will have to take the road which will eventually lead to communism."

Karl Marx, 1867

But Marx is wrong about "road wich will lead to communism". The road will lead to fascism, the cooperation between banks and government and the enslavement of the population. The New World Order will not be communism, it will be 1984.

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tisonlyi

Fascism can't last forever.

If you look at both the Nazi, Mussolini and to certain extent the Soviet regime, they were forced to take ever more extreme measures to try and prop themselves up from the levels of debt/dissent/inefficiency/short-sightedness/bureaucracy/ that such systems inherently suffer from.

You can look at the UK and US (et al) as 'bureaucratic-socialistic/fascistic' states in that the economies are skewed decisively in the favour of as well as manipulated by a small band of bureaucrats, namely the bankers/financiers.

In the end, I think we all have to realize that large organisations run along authoritarian lines are a problem, will always fail at some point, and their failures cause chaos.

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guyy

Where does Marx say that? I ask because that doesn't sound like Marx.

Baraka_Guru

The Karl Marx quote - who wrote it? | Belgraded blog

Interesting.

Perhaps we can just focus on the idea, rather than the source?

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roachboy

well, if you want an idea of how far that quotation is from marx on related questions, go here:

http://marx.eserver.org/1887-the.hou...ourgeoisie.txt

or you could look at the sections on the colonies from capital, vol. 1 of which came out in 1867.
i couldn't find anything like the quote in capital, but i don't have time at the moment to do too much searching--there's a searchable complete text at the same website, above.

"the irish question" deals in passing with rents, but it's mostly notes.

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guyy

My memory isn't perfect, but i can't think of where in vol. I of Capital such a passage would be found. Given the missing words/typos, it's certainly not in the English translations.

In 1867, Marx is concerned with Prussia & Bismarck among other things. In his letters he ridicules Lasalle's idea that Bismarck is instituting some sort of socialism from above.

I do think the source is important, because this looks like an attempt to link state (=executive committee of the bourgeoisie) action to Marx and socialism. The source is probably the main point of this "passage from Marx". That might not have been the quoter's intent, but since a google search turns up the same words elsewhere on the net, i don't think it is his translation.
-----Added 14/1/2009 at 01 : 58 : 30-----
The idea is the same old one that anything other than neo-liberal brand o'capitalism is Kommunismus.

Note that the version posted on the website you mentions claims that it's from Capital. I'm pretty sure this isn't from Capital, which means it's a fake.

pai mei

Ok wrong quote
Will research more about the quotes i find. But it's true

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guyy

Do you think it's possible for bureaucrats & poliitcos to institute socialism from above? The problem with that is that you would still have class rule. That's why i agree with Marx here.