My Friend hit his Girlfriend
 

I met up with my friend and his girlfriend last night, and she had a bit of a black eye that i noticed. So I asked him outright if he had hit her and he said yes, lots of drink involved, she was hitting him before that.... I don't know what to think of him as I could never do that to my GF, and my view is that I hate cowardly pricks that do that to women, but he is a close friend and I really don't know how to feel about the situation...

what should I do??

If he's really your friend, you take him out back, beat the living shit out of him, then pick him up, give him a hug, tell him wtf, and then find him some counseling.

well, getting involved probably wont get you much appreciation from either side.. personally I would respect someone a lot less if they knocked their girlfriend around. I would advise her to press charges on him, but if she doesnt want to it's her choice...

well, violence always solves violent situations....

and his friend might be a lot stronger than him and give him a black eye too?

Having been in a relationship that involved hitting (her hitting me) I would like to point out that if she did start hitting him first that it is entirely possible that he hit her back to try to get her to stop. When I was in this relationship there was nothing I could do to stop this woman hitting me, so eventually I told her that if she hit me again that I'd hit her back (this was during an argument). She did hit me and I pushed her away from me and she fell over a couch, bruising her face.

Not to say that I condone hitting women, but there are two sides to every story.

a woman once threatened to hit me, but she didnt do it. Which is lucky, cos she was a big girl, and she might have kicked my ass. :(

She was involved with this girl who was also involved kind of with my mum (who is gay) - and my mum sent me this text saying this woman was going to beat her up or whatever, and it happened I used to live about 3 minutes walk from the main gay pub in Ipswich... so I walked down there, and was just trying to tell her to calm down, and she basically started going "you stay out of it, or I'll kick the shit out of you" - I responded by kind of laughing and saying "what? dont be ridiculous, how am I going to get beat up by a girl?"

As it turns out, this wasnt a good thing to say, as it made her pretty mad - but she didnt hit me, I just stood my ground and she just yelled and huffed and puffed a lot... if she had of I dont think I would have hit her back or got violent at all (I'd like to think not) - even though she was actually physically biger than me - I just couldnt really imagine hitting a girl... in a worst case I might have grabbed her arm or something if she really swung at me. But I guess she couldnt have been sure I wouldnt have hit her back, and so she didnt hit me...

Anyway, Im just rambling... I guess if a woman was really hitting me it might be dificult not to retaliate in anyway, but I certainly dont think I wouldnt punch a woman or do anything that would leave her with a black eye... but, I cant really imagine a woman ever really going all out to be that violent either - I guess it is sexist and condescending, but I really dont think women tend to be that violent, Ive never known a women who I have felt actually really threatened by.

Obviously what he did was wrong, but she hit him too, right? If you're going to take him out the back and beat the hell out of him do it to her as well. Sure, she probably didn't hurt him nearly as much as he hurt her but if we justify domestic violence by the amount of pain caused (a little is ok, but there's a line you can't cross) then it sets a bad precedent. Tell her not to hit him, tell him not to hit her and recommend they sort it out by themselves or with a counselor.

your friend should have walked out of the situation if she was the first person to take a swing, if your lady friend starts to lay the beats to you I suggest leaving the room and getting the woman some help. I don't think I could stay in a relationship that could produce such arguments that would get her to hit me.


i thought the only women you were allowed to smack was your sister? thats what dad always said. j/k

Once you hit puberty, then that rule goes away... :D

Let's see -- a lot of alcohol was involved and that will sometimes cause people to do things that they normally wouldn't do. Not that that excuses him hitting her.

Women who hit men are just as bad as men who hit women. In some cases they might be smaller and not as strong and their hitting doesn't have quite the same effect, it's still hitting and the intent is there. The woman has some anger management issues, and if I were him, I'd show her the front door.

He was honest about doing it, they didn't try to cover it up, so I"m inclined to beleive this was a one off event... Absers and abusees get pretty good at perfecting the lies about the bruises.

If he's that good a friend, and he sounds like if if you were comfortable asking, and he was ok with telling, maybe suggest an anger management class, or simply walking away if there is a next time, and walking away for good. We tell women that they shouldn't stay with a man who hits them - -same goes for men if their woman hits them.`

I once had a friend who was somewhat violent....Moderately....but was part of my life since gradeschool. He also hit his girlfriend, at which point (I was actually there) I told him to stop, which he did. I later asked him WTF he was thinking, and he said she just pissed him off. I tried to explain how wrong this was.....not just against Women, and he did not seem to understand.

That was 14 years ago......I have not seen or talked to him since.
I do not care to have such ignorance in my life.....and minimize it when I can.

that's my solution for things lots of things that people do that I do no like.

Violence towards another living thing is wrong. I don't lay a beating on a puppy, why would I hit a woman? Or a man?

I would only use reasonable force to defend myself.

The days of "Don't Hit Women" are gone. Equal opportunity is rough that way. I have seen women push the limits because they think that blanket rule still applies. All I have to say is "I will defend myself just as vigorously, regardless of sex."

Having said that, I don't think (as a rule, yes there would be exceptions) it would take as much force to defend myself against a female.

I would not hit a man expecting him not to retaliate because I'm a woman. Except for ubertuber. When we were dating, I hit him all the time and he took it like a good boyfriend. (Kidding, of course.)

Regardless of what happened with your friend and his girlfriend, you sound like you're at least a little worried, which means that you should probably have a talk with him about it for the sake of your friendship. And then talk to the girlfriend in case she needs an ally. Ultimately, though, it's up to him to know that hitting his SO is wrong and he probably should have walked away if she hit him first.

If your counsel and concern are not received well, then you can use the tecoyah/Cynthetiq solution and keep your distance because you've done pretty much all you can.

Over the course of 42 years many, many people, have entered and exited my life for this exact reason.

Since you say he's a close friend, I think you owe it to him to say to him what you think of what happened. Warn him of the consequences, and then stay out. I don't abandon friends who do something stupid, but I do keep my distance from people who KEEP ON doing something stupid.

My question is: Why is it OK for a woman to hit a man? Because by the responses it seems that, overwhelmingly, most of you feel this way.

This has never even been close to happening to me, but I can honestly say that if a girlfriend of mine would ever start hitting me, and after I hold her to calm down. After I would release her and she hit me again I'll guaranfuckingtee that she would get punched in the face, and the relationship would have been over before I let her go. Wanna act like a man then you should be treated like one. I love how women want to be treated like a man, until it involves something physical.

I don't disagree that it's not okay for a woman to hit a man because it's not okay for ANYBODY to hit anybody else. I do however take issue with saying that hitting people is "acting like a man." Would you feel differently if a man hit his boyfriend because they were both men? Do you think women who choose to pursue careers or hobbies in male-dominated fields are trying to "act like men" and not just doing what works for them?

I personally dont measure my manhood by my ability to beat people up. and call me sexist if you want, but I would walk away, and take a few blows if I had to, before I punched a women.

Nope!

It depends one what the career is. There would be very few examples that would qualify, but one would be a career in a man's sport(for example: NHL or NFL), then yes, I would consider that a woman trying to act like a man and not doing what works for them. A woman playing in a woman's league is perfectly fine. And a woman hitting their boyfriend/husband is absolutely taking advantage of the fact that a guy won't hit back. I say bullshit. Any adult that hits another adult deserves to be hit back, regardless of gender.

If we are truly trying to have equality between the sexes then you should not try to claim that it is always wrong to hit a woman. As with any other person attacking him, the retaliation may have been justified.

One thing I would check is to make sure that they both are thinking clearly. There are a surprising number of women who are in abusive relationships that they really want to get out of but do not simply because they are scared (as nonsensical as that is). This goes for the guy as well.

If they are both OK with the incident then it is a victimless crime; if they both decided to beat on each other all day what business is it of yours? If you decide to end the relationship it is because you have problems, not him.

I also take issue with the statement that violence is never justified against anything, but that would be another thread.

I think these "playful taps" are interesting. It's actually part of attraction. It's interesting that this low form of violence is actually good. (I say something to tease her, she pretends to be offended, gives me a tap on the shoulder etc.) I'm fine with this.

I do have a problem when I get these for almost no reason at all from a girlfriend. A girl I was dating used it as punishment- a way to show she was frustrated without actually communicating with me by talking.

I'm making a major assumption here, that he was bigger than she was. That is what makes it wrong, yes, she could be a professional kick boxer, but he's still bigger than she is and that gives him an advantage and using that advantage is wrong.

I'd feel the same way if it were two men, if one man was a lot bigger than the other man, if the bigger guy hit the smaller one... You pick on someone your own size.

Walk away you don't need to prove anything.

I think a lot of people feel its politically incorrect, or sexist, or condescending, or just don't want to come out and say it... but the fact is, at least where Im from and how I was brouight up.. men don't hit women. Period. Of course, I might meet a woman who was stronger or tougher than me; I'm not much of a fighter myself... but for me part of being a man is that I wouldnt hit a women. And if I witnessed a man hitting a women, regardless of context, I would consider myself quite likely to expound reasonable force to prevent that.

About a year ago I was arrested for beating a guy unconscious with a 6-D Maglite. The guy was about 30, 6"6' and around 300 lbs, and I just saw him backhand a 16 year old girl across the face. He broke her jaw, cheekbone, and the blow knocked her back about 6 feet into a wall. I reached back into my litle brothers car, grabbed the flashlight, and gave him a couple lovetaps to the side of the head. When the cops got there, I was grabbed, handcuffed and put into a cop car until the ambulance arrived for the little girl who had been carried inside in the meantime. As soon as the cops found out the whole story, the handcuffs were removed and put on him, and every cop there shook my hand. They took down all my information, and I walked away. I did end up getting called into court over the whole thing, but it ended up being no trouble for me.

Was what I did violent? Yeah.

Was it none of my business? Nope, not really.

Would I do it again? In a heartbeat.

Men do not hit women. I don't care about being seen as sexist, its just the way I am. I also open doors and pull out chairs, so eh, whatever, if thats seen as sexist, fine.

I've been in a relationship with a girl that hit me, and I never, ever even thought about hitting her back. Its just not right for me, or for any of the people that I would call friends. If I saw a guy beating on a girl, no matter what the circumstances, I'm gonna get in someones face.

I don't care what gender you are, people in a loving relationship don't hit each other. She shouldn't have hit him to start with, and he should have had the maturity and restraint to not hit back. I would suggest to them that they seek counseling - this can't go anywhere good, and if this continues and escalates, chances are he's going to be the one doing the more serious hitting and will accordingly pay the heavier price. Not necessarily fair, but if you care about him and his relationship, I'd suggest they get help.

WRONG! Everyone is so self-righteous with their prejudice. Ever heard of BDSM? I suppose you would want to "fix" the sadomasochists out there, and then maybe move on to the sodomizers and heathen fornicators.

You can treat women with chivalry if you want, but don't you dare try to inflict your moral code on others. They both have recourse to the law if they want to; let them decide.

I think in general terms, what lurkette said was fair. What I think we are discussing here is being assaulted, and in general terms, very few consent to being struck. If both people consent on either side of the blow, of course that's OK -- a little weird for me, but OK, and certainly within your rights.
Without consent, no one has the right to strike another person besides in self-defense.

I agree that I sometimes think someone OUGHT to be laid out, but I can't assume the right to do it, unless I'm willing to accept all of the consequences that go along with it -- like jail.

I don't agree that if everyone is OK with the situation, then it's a victimless crime. Black eyes and bruises are evidence of a very real crime, whether it's prosecuted or not.

Although in your friend's situation, it's a tough call due to lack of info. If he was being attacked by her and he used reasonable force to get her to stop attacking him then it would probably be justified. And they should probably get counseling anyways. A black eye seems a bit extreme to me. I could see bruised wrists from him holding her defensively but a black eye implies he punched her in the face. Did she full on punch him or were they itty-bity "girly taps"? Was he really in danger? In your example, I think alot would depend on the circumstances and stuff.

I wasn't there, so i can't speak to that particular situation. However I was present when a couple that were both very good friends of mine got into a fight one evening. He begged her to leave him alone, to let him leave, etc. Each time he attempted to leave she would either block the door, kick and hit him, or jump on his back and pull his hair and other similar behavior....this guy did everything he could to walk away from the situation. She would not let him. He first tried to talk his way out of the house, which resulted in him getting beat. He then tried to use as little physical force as possible to enable hime to leave (physically moving her out of the way, pushing her out of the way etc.) he ended up having to hit her just so he could get out of the house so he didn't have to get the shit beat out of him anymore. Guess who went to jail for beating who? Yep he went for domestic violence, he had to hire a lawyer to defend himself in court, no charges filed against her. I was there when it happened, she was the agressor, he had two choices, let her seriously injure him or defend himself and leave as soon as he could. he chose the latter, and it cost him a fortune (and it cost me a day off work w/o pay in order to testify at his trial as a witness), but he was found not guilty. Sometimes you have to hit a woman. Granted this situation is far form the typical one, but sometimes it genuinely is self defense. Knee jerk reactions are almost never the best way to handle a situation.

Have you read the opening thread? This is not about BDSM, BDSM is consensual.
This thread is about a non-consensual fight. A completly differten subject.

My friends and I have a pack: if one of us hits a girl for no reason, we beat the hell out of him and do the hug bit. However, she hit him first. So it becomes: call counseling for them, or report a domestic dispute or something of the like about them.

I have to say I completely disagree with this bullshit about violence never being justified, or that it's always wrong to inflict harm on another living being. When did life become so sacred? Please answer me that.

But wouldn't it be an advantage for the woman if she knows that the man won't hit him back? If she uses that advantage, is that not wrong?

Violence in this case was not justified, unless she came at him with a knife or a gun, he did not have to hit her back. It is wrong to intentionally inflict harm on another person.

No where did I say her doing the hitting first was in any way correct... She was wrong, him hitting back compounds the wrong.

Two things:
1) Look at what I was responding to: Sweeping generalizations about how other people's relationships ought to be.
2) It was nonconsensual? Ehh? I don't see anywhere paulskinback reports even having talked to the girlfriend, and her not having pressed charges seems to indicate that she has consented to it so far. Don't you think the woman should have some say in the matter, or is she irrelevant?

Oh reeeally? So you would say that if someone was bruised in football then it would be a crime? How about if they were sparring in martial arts practice or for fun? How about having rough sex? How about if they both just hit each other because it is none of your darn business?

There are some majorly wrong assumptions being made in this thread, mainly that you have any justification to tell them what they can and cannot do in privacy with their own bodies.

Dude, chill! I like being tied up and spanked, so climb down off your soapbox. As others have already pointed out, the key here is consent. And if I "inflicted" my moral code on others, we'd all be living in bisexual polyamorous BDSM communes, so you might want to back off on the caffeine before you read your own particular phobias and prejudices into my words.

Smacking your SO because you're drunk and mad is not an action conducive to healthy relationships. Period. Just because she hasn't gone to the police yet does not prove consent. The boyfriend admitted that they were fighting, he at least was drunk, she was hitting him, so he hit her back. If you can't see the difference between mild domestic violence (in which both parties are COMPLICIT - not CONSENTING - big difference) and a consensual BDSM relationship, then maybe you need to examine your perspective a bit. The boyfriend didn't say "yeah, we're into rough sex and things got a little rough." He admitted they were whacking each other in a fight. I don't know what you classify as a "healthy" relationship, but IMHO this is not it.

You seem to be a bit touchy about people judging relationships - I'm sorry if my earlier words came off as judgmental and sweeping; I didn't realize I'd have to make a distinction between "good" hitting and "bad" hitting - seems pretty evident to me, and to most other reasonable people around here. You might look at how your own experiences might be coloring your reaction.

Are you serious? The thread isn't about football, or BDSM, or martial arts. You bring in peripheral hypotheticals mentioned nowhere else in the thread, and ignore what others are writing. I was talking about the black eye mentioned at the head of this thread.

Moreover, martial arts and footbal, like BDSM, are consensual activities, with known risks. Several of us here said that consensual activities were different, and what ever you want to do with your body is fine. We are talking about non-consensual assault. Reeeeally!

I just think someone is spoiling for a fight...:hmm:

I don't condone violence, although I understand the need for it...occasionally.

I think if he were routinely beating on her it would be a different story. As it stands and from what I gathered, it was a one time incident. If they're reasonable individuals, this will probably be the only time it ever happens. I'd talk to him, I'd explain what happens if it continues, give the guy a pat on the back and move on.

I am sorry, I seem to be at a disadvantage. Can I spontaneously change my position at the drop of a hat as well? At 3:51 you say that no loving relationship involves hitting, and suggest that they seek counseling, and then a mere 2 hours later say that you enjoy being hit and that you would never tell anyone how to run their relationships. Can you explain how these posts do not contradict themselves?

--- oops, you have edited your post while I was writing this, so let me continue.

Everyone is assuming that the woman did not want to be hit; ok, that makes sense even though nobody seems to feel the need to ask her. In that case we have a system of dealing with those situations, namely the law. People can be hurt in many different ways, many of them not criminal, and it is up to those injured to decide if they want to press charges. Making judgements about the nature of the incident without a clue as to the disposition of the injured party is arrogant to the extreme.

There you go again, defining a "healthy" relationship by your own standards. What justification do you have to say if it is "healthy", and even if it is not "healthy" why can they not continue with it if they do not mind?

------------
And I think you are wildly flailing your opinions around to the detriment of others; at least their domestic violence did not damage the community.

If gays were "reasonable individuals" then they would stop being gay; I mean what do they expect to happen, besides having pleasure? If they did not like it, it will probably never happen again. If the woman thinks it necessary she will press charges; she has not yet.


The bottom line is that it is up to the injured parties(the woman in this case) to decide if she liked it or not, and if she did not if it requires punishment. Nobody has asked the woman, so anyone attacking the actions of the boyfriend are poking their nose someplace it does not belong.

I know this thread isnt about BDSM....but I'm going to put my 2 cents in since it was brought up.........Being spanked and flogged is NO where near the same as a guy/girl hitting their S/O in anger. While I enjoy the being spanked/flogged if it were done in anger you can best believe that person would NEVER again have the chance to lay a hand on me...period, end of story. The kind of "hitting" that goes on in BDSM is NO where near the kind of hitting this person did.

That said....if a woman is going to be dumb enuff and disrespectful enuff to hit someone....she best need to expect to get smacked back, it nothing else then out of pure reflex.

Start by explaining that you do no feel what he did was right and why you feel that way. If he is that close of a friend he should listen and take this as a wake up call and realize that he made a big error in judgement. If his moral standards in this case are different than yours, prepare to say goodbye to a friend.

And I'll add that if they got to this point after drinking, they have other issues. Being drunk is not a good excuse for many things. Alcohol is not a crutch either of them should lean on to explain how this happened.

He stated his opinion, as did everyone else in this forum, there was no wild flailing...
What does this absurd statement have to do with anything?
This is a discussion forum. We discuss. Paul broached a topic, we responded based on our own life experiences. We don't know either party, we have not talked to either party - -all we can do is comment on what we would do given the situation.

This is how I previously thought. No man can hit a woman. Ever. well...until I let my friend's girlfriend drive him and us back to his house one time. He blew her off to go fishing with me and his car broke down so she was nice enough to come get us (probably only because she was a friend of mine and I didn't know that he had). Naturally they start fighting about it on the way home and she just snapped, she said she had enough and was going to kill him. She let go of the steering wheel pushed the gas to the floor and just starting hitting him like crazy. He tried to steer and just take it but she was making things too difficult so hit her. And suddenly I had the learned the real moral that should be applied when men hit women, rather when anyone hits anyone: stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves be it man, woman or child.

It's not about gender hitting gender, its about using your physical advantage to harm another person. Really, its about an unfair fight. Most men are bigger and stronger than most women and that is just the way things are. So in almost all cases men shouldn't be hitting women. If a man is big enough to stop a woman from causing him physical harm but doesn't because he thinks it would be wrong, then yeah, it's his problem and I'm not going to do a thing about it. But if he can't get her to stop any other way and hits her, I can live with that.

...rambling snipped...
You have a point that nobody has asked the woman, but to assume that just because she is silent about it means that she is consenting to being hit is really beyond the pale. She should absolutely be responsible for her own actions, but to turn a blind eye to the situation really isn't being a good friend. All the guy was asking was what, if anything, he should do about the situation. One option would be to shrug and do nothing. Another would be to bring down the hammer on the guy for hitting a woman. I think a reasonable response would be somewhere in the middle: to make sure the guy understands that *abuse* in a relationship is not okay. (Hope that choice of words doesn't set you off :rolleyes:) From either party. Hang out with a battered woman or two and see if you don't change your opinions about the situation. You're really struggling hard to be offended by what are some pretty reasonable assumptions.

You do have a good point that just because she has not complained does not indicate that she is consenting. You also have finally come up with a reasonable response for paulskinback, to make sure his friend is not going to be abusive. As I stated earlier I think he should also talk to the girlfriend and make sure that she knows she does have options.

What raised my ire was the flood of suggestions for inappropriate responses ranging from beating the guy up, recommending counseling, declaring the relationship irreparable, and otherwise suggesting that others opinions trumped the peaceful resolution those actually involved had come to.

I will beat the shit out of any man I EVER see hitting a girl. I will allow a slap to slide if she deserves it. But there is a BIG difference between a hit and a slap.

Besides, who here have ever had a girlfriend who seriously hurt when they hit. Personally pinches/scratches have hurt 10x worse than any hit a girl's done to me.

hitting women is wrong without consent (outside of BDSM fun) and when angry and drunk. And i would no longer consider that person my friend, if it was a man or a woman who did the hitting.

Phage:
I am a little shocked at your continued flaring.
Making your points without flaring and in a calm and polite fashion is how Tfp works and what others are adhering to in this thread. calm down :icare:

Sweetpea

My first post was calm and laid out my thoughts, showing what I think to be the flaws in various other opinions. I increased the force of my posts hoping that people might actually read them... Unfortunately the second post:
...and the 45th post:
...seem to indicate that posting probably reaches only a very small number of those who add to the thread.

I do find it interesting that me calling people's positions stupid gets more reaction than others advocating premeditated assault. How does that work?

deserves it???? what would make her or anyone deserve to get slapped or hit? are we talking the woman talks sassy to her man or stabs him with a rusty spoon? in jest i speak. Btw a slap is fine over a hit you say? I've seen people slapped so hard they almost do a back flip. if you think there is a difference then you never had been slapped by my father. both the same in my eyes. both are wrong.


edit- the father thing was a joke, he was never around long enough to hit me.

(I am remiss to even answer you...)
I was not disagreeing with you, premeditated assault is never acceptable in my opinion.

i would like to say:
We don't call other individual's positions "stupid" here on TFP, it goes against the principles that open discussion is based on.
We respect each other on TFP and agree to disagree when we do.
You're not going to change anyone's mind on an online discussion board.
thanks,
Sweetpea

OK....Unless you want your LAST post to be the one quoted here......read the rules VERY carefully....and act like the adult you are.

You insulted a member here.....it cannot happen again.

The difference between a slap and a hit is in the force, not the fact it's open palm or not (IMO anyways). And the only "deserve it" is when she's threatening serious force (i.e. flipping out and holding a knife). Other than that it's easy enough to grab their wrists and bam... they cant hit you (yes this is assuming he's stronger than her... but lets face it most women arent kickboxers).

Oh no, I read your post. You, however didnt take the time to read mine. It involves witnessing it. Something like that, you could tell if she enjoyed it or if it was abuse. If it was seeing only the effects (i.e. blackeye) it is your duty as a friend to get involved through talking to both sides and getting cops involved if required.

Just because people dont agree with your post doesn't mean they didnt read it or they are too stupid to..

I think this machismo viewpoint has some serious flaws in it. One quarter of all spousal homocides have male victims. (Stats Can., 2004) I think this speaks a lot for how a macho attitude leads to underreporting of spouse abuse against men. Women are more likely to engage in verbal abuse rather than physical abuse, and a guy will be expected to "take it like a man" when he gets berated. I think it's great to have guys not hitting women. I think it's even better if women don't hit men.

Our society's traditional beliefs put women on a pedestal, objects to be admired, protected, but seen as easily breakable and of lesser importance. It's this attitude that allows for abuse behind closed doors and demeans equality of the sexes.

Edit: Hektore, you expressed a complex truth very elegantly. Nicely done.

That is a cheap shot, it does not become you.
I have not called anyone or their opinions stupid, unless you count pointing out careless logic. I have always explained my position in a logical manner, and have not attacked the character of anyone.

It appears not, but surely that is the aim of a discussion board. Otherwise there would be no need to have anything but a poll function. In any case, I am not going to change your mind so I am done responding to you.

My reference to calling people stupid was to what I consider a mistaken interpretation by sweetpea, attempting to mark the contrast between her reaction to what she thought was character assassination and others advocating criminal acts. Every opinion I have opposed I have given a reasoned rebuttal. "Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes." is in the definition of stupid; perhaps it is a more polite way of referring to what I consider a poorly considered position.

I think if drink was involved, you should dismiss it as a one time thing. HOWEVER, keep an eye on your friend and his girlfriend. If you notice things happening that are out of control, report it.

My wife and I have been divorced for about two years now. I am 30 now and in all my years of dating I always wondered how anyone could ever hit a women? Well once you have been abused (Mentally and Physically) time and time again there is just so much a man can take. My X used to beat on me all the time and I can still say that I have never hit a women with a closed hand but I sure have shaken the fuck out of her. Not proud of my actions at all. I guess when someone bits the shit out of your arm. Instincts take over or mine did. So really its hard to answer for anyone until you have been put in that situation. I told her if she kept on talking and hitting people like a man someone was going to give her a Man's Ass Kicking. And as of today I got custody of my 19 month old boy when he was 6 months. She has 0 visitations with him from the courts just what I will allow and I was being very fair with her about coming over to the house to see him until about 4 hrs ago when she got pissed and as she was leaving she tried to run thru my garage door About 1500.00 worth of damage lucky my little boy was inside and didn't see any of this. So before you start saying what you would and wouldn't do to a women. You probably have never been put in this bad of a situation.

Just don't let this guy find out about it:

http://wrak.pl/sincity/postacie/marv1.gif

With all due respect, if my boyfriend got drunk and hit me hard enough to leave a mark, I would NOT dismiss it as a one time thing. I have never been hit by a man and I have no intention of opening the door to it, which is how I would see this.

As for the OP's question - I guess what I'd do is check in with the girlfriend and find out her version of the story, friendship or not. If it sounded like abuse, I'd encourage her to do something about it. And I'd probably end up losing my friend when she told him and he got mad, but oh well. What I would not do is pursue getting involved beyond that point - it's up to her to do something about it and if two are playing the game, no outsider will be able to make them change. I do think it's important to help people being abused by pointing out what's going on though - it seems that a lot of the time they are confused and just want to make excuses for the abuser.

aberkok: Eh, why not? There is always a time and place...
http://www.clemson.edu/~carrol4/timeandplace.gif

He's you're friend, you owe him two things: You're loyalty, and keeping him on track.

Having had a horrible relationship in which my ex wife was very abusive, and liked to grab sharp and or blunt objects to swing at me, I feel that there is deffinately a time when you may, despite your chivalrous inclanations, have to hit a lady- for me it was the last time she came at me with a ball peen hammer- that was after four and a half years, and I still have (and will have for the rest of my life, ) knife scars- I, untill that point, had believed that one never hit a woman, etc, but if you get hurt enough times, take enough knives away from her, and get enough knives, mugs, hammers, etc thrown at you, then it does in fact change your opinion- the situation was particularly bad for me, as i 1- sell weapons for a living, 2- am certified to teach a martial art, 3- am a guy- luckily I avoided any entanglement with the law, but had the cops been called, I am sure that as the guy, I would have been the one to go to jail- and the person that this thread focuses on should be warned of that fact- statisticly, HE will go to jail, unless she outright tells the cops that she is at fault- NOTE- I do not condone unprovoked, non consensual violence in a relationship, violence is always destructive, and does not provide a soloution, only an end, as was the case in my own situation-

However, if hypothetically you were beating on your boyfriend while you were both drunk, and he punched you back (perhaps not knowing his own strength and not restraining himself because of drunkenness), could you really blame him for defending himself?

I'm in the boat that if my friend hit his girl, I would probably have to check his ass. I'm going to go out on a sexest limb here, women are not as strong as men, therefore they are not as dangerous physically. Short of grave physical danger, there is never any excuse for a friend of mine, or any man, should lay a finger on any female, let alone a girl friend. If she is physically going after you there are ways to deal with such as A) walking away or B) physically restrain her, not the same as hitting a woman.

Doesn't help the fact that the dude was tanked, but as stated here that isn't an excuse. I'd say your friend should ditch this chick, doesn't seem like a healthy relationship if she can rile him to that level of violence.

My opinion damages the community? Seriously? I'm glad we haven't strayed into the world of ridiculous hyperbole....

It's my opinion. I stand by it. In a thread less than 24 hours old you've managed to come back 8 times to give us your opinion. You've verbally berated member after member in post after post, been warned by, at least from what I've observed, the most laid back moderator here and still you continue. If it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck....you can figure out the rest.

This is too absurd. You really had to stretch to get that one.

Homosexuality isn't a choice. Punching someone in the face....is.


It's a discussion board. We discuss things. Paul asked for an opinion, the board gave it.
You obviously don't agree with it, but that hardly matters considering it's an opinion, which doesn't require validation from a second party.

I'll admit there was a bit of presumption on my part. Perception being what it is, I presumed that most folks don't like getting punched in the face. Might even find it "unpleasant." Added to the litany of generic excuses, which I've heard from many an abuser (there was alcohol....she hit me first), I presumed that the boyfriend, who is, presumably, bigger and stronger than her since paul fails to mention otherwise, had a momentary lapse of impulse control and rammed his fist into his girlfriend's face.

Man, do I have egg on my face....:rolleyes:

Though it would obviously be better to end the situation in the most non-violent way possible, I would have to say that hitting someone, no matter the gender of the parties involved, is giving consent to be hit yourself.

I realized this after I wrote that, since the original story was that she was hitting him first.

In that case, he is still not justified but then again neither would I be. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. The injustice of it is mitigated, however. The problem we're talking about, I think, comes when she has a black eye and he doesn't. If I'm beating on my boyfriend he should be capable of getting out of the situation without giving me a black eye, unless it's one of the extreme situations like people have described in this thread.

Years ago, I was very drunk, crazy and belligerent one night and started hitting a guy I was with. He sat there and told me to stop, with increasing firmness, until I got the message and stopped. He did the right thing and I was totally in the wrong. When I realized what had happened later and thought about it, I was humbled and respected him for how he handled it. Any time we give in to our baser instincts like I did that night, we're just making the world an uglier place to live in. He counteracted that by acting according to his higher nature. If I hadn't stopped, he could still have shoved me out the door and stopped the situation without injuring me. Luckily I didn't hurt him.

I don't think being drunk excuses these kinds of acts, either. The guy in the story above had also been drinking that night and he managed alright.

If all these presumptions were true, I would suspect the woman would have more than "a bit of a black eye."
Even if he slapped her, she would be bruised around her face and eye if he hit her hard enough and in certain places. The point is, none of us have any idea about even the most minor details necessary before forming an opinion.

Your friend answered your question with honesty, and in full confidence that you were interested in his and her well-being, and certainly wouldn't expect you to spew his personal situation on the internet or attack him over his actions. I suspect there's more backstory here than you are relaying.

It's disturbing to me that people are suggesting someone become physically violent with his "close friend."
I can't imagine any adult friends who would agree to beating each other up over some misguided promise to protect women from themselves. That sounds more like some pact teenagers make to prove their manhood to each other by acting hypermasculine, not mature responses to violence.
Some friends people have in here.

I did talk to her briefly, although I don't know her as well, and she said that he hit her, but seemed like by her response she wasn't too bothered (maybe this has happened in her past relationships?? I dont know)

I am the one who is bothered about the situation because I don't know if I can keep a friend who hits women, booze or not. Here is an update on the story...

He thinks she drinks too much, and can't handle it or her when she's drunk. He sometimes gets out of control when he's drunk (in the past has got into trouble with police etc) but fairly minor situations, and was a teenager etc so I let it pass.
Two and two together, he tried to calm her drunkness and shouting, restrained her, pushed her out of his face. She hit him and he retaliated. My thoughts are, if i were him, she hit me, i walk away and leave her. I couldn't ever hit a girl/woman.... but he did... it angers me that he saw nothing wrong with that, I don't want him to do worse in the future...

I hate to think what wrath I'm going to call down on myself for this :rolleyes:, but this does not sound like a healthy relationship. I'm with you on the "walk away" part, but it sounds like they're really kind of stuck feeding off each other's actions. I can see why you'd be bothered that he doesn't see anything wrong with it, but I'm just as bothered that she doesn't see anything wrong with it, either. Sounds like they've gotten into a bit of a pattern, and I would hate to see it escalate. These things do happen, and they're unfortunate, and many devoted couples manage to find a way past it. But chances are if neither of them is interested in changing their behavior, it's not going to get better, only worse.

If you're asking whether you should still be his friend, you're the only one who can really answer that. You know what there is between the two of you, and whether this new insight into his character and behavior is worth letting that go. You can either stick to him and try to convince him of what you (and most of us) see as the error of his ways; or you can stick to him and say "live and let live;" or you can walk away and let him and his girlfriend handle their own dysfunction.

Good luck.

I wouldn't suggest doing anything about it after the fact, especially since the original poster wasn't there to begin with. However, if I ever first hand saw a friend hit a girl, they would get cracked in the jaw. You know instances were you stand up for people... in this case you would be reinforcing the point that you never ever hit a woman. I suppose a mature response would be talking about it over a cup of joe, digging deep to find his true inner feelings, right?

I doubt I could react the way sixate has said, but I want to expand on the first point. The inability to hit a woman under any circumstances is sexism. There are women who are dangerously equal or more powerful to their spouses, who may pose a significant threat to them. Just because on average a man will tend to be stronger than a woman does not warrant this kind of of outdated paternalistic bullshit. The reaction must be specific to the situation.

Would you keep a friend who hits men? What's different about his girlfriend or even women in general that makes you come to this conclusion?

This situation sounds like both parties of the relationship are in the wrong. They are abusing each other, and while they are both technically "victims", it doesn't sound like she is a candidate for a battered women's shelter anymore than your friend is.

*pokes in*
okay, besides the fact that there are some women who are more powerful then men most women are smaller and really cant hit as hard at all. i've been in relationships where i was abused and maybe i'm biased but i firmly believe that no man has the right to hit a woman EVER. if its really self defense then by the time he should have actually struck out he should be black and blue all over. maybe i'm behind the times here..but i still kinda like it when my chair is pulled out and when a guy will defend me and treat me like a girl. men shouldnt hit women, women shouldnt hit men..but if a woman hits a man he should leave..if a man hits a woman he should have some sense and old fashioned respect knocked into him. and irishsean and seaver..i wish there were more guys like you around.

Also..since he probably was bigger..when i get a lil crazy screamy throwy biznatch is pretty capable of restraining me..and hes really not that much bigger then me..maybe 2 inches taller 30 pounds heavier..if a girl hitting a guy why not just do that untill she calms down?

That's quite a bit of presumption on your part as well. ;)

I presumed the boyfriend was bigger and physically stronger than the girlfriend. It's really not that big a leap in logic... Being the 'bigger' man and in no physical danger (I would think paulskinback would've mentioned it if the boyfriend were) he could've handled the situation in a myriad of other ways rather than launching his fist at her face. It doesn't matter how hard he hit her, just that he hit her, period.

But all that is irrelevant because...

My opinion is that I couldn't be friends with anyone who routinely smacks someone else around. The boyfriend isn't a habitual offender, but paul seems worried that he might become one. I would suggest that paul has a talk with the fellow to express the concern, give the guy a pat on the back and move on. Everyone loses control every now and then. It's only a problem if it becomes routine.

Because nothing's more fun than a crazy woman who knows you won't retaliate. Women aren't anything special. Should I walk away if a five foot four man starts hitting me? Should I wait till I'm black and blue?

I love the people who advocate violence. "Hitting women is wrong. So kick his fucking ass!" I hope I never meet an internet tough guy's keyboard in a dark alley.

Look, I don't hit women. I do hit my guy friends. In play. I don't usually hit women when I'm being playful(I'd rather wrestle). Yes they are smaller, but so are most guys. Self defense is self defense though. Don't hit unless you can be OK with being hit back.

P.S. I open doors for women, and even let them get off the elevator first while I hold the door. I just don't think being born with a vadge means you get special treatment by my knuckles.

okay lemme explain...if i were to hit my SO i MIGHT leave a dent..
if he were to hit me (and he cant hit hard) i would end up with a broken nose ..maybe a few missing teeth ect...

i dont think its right for anyone to abuse someone smaller..man OR woman...
but i do think that good men just dont hit women and will go to all lenths to avoid it ..for the same reasons you open doors or pull out chairs or walk her to her door at night. do you do that for your 5'3" male friends?

oh and i also...whats wrong with just restraining a woman (or smaller man) untill he/she has calmed down..or just ..i dunno..leaving?

Ok then what's wrong with the smaller person behaving themselves?
Why should the innocent (in this theoretical case) have to be the one to leave?

I'm not advocating hitting at all, just why should the larger person have to leave with their tail between theirs legs.
Also, to a lot of people having to restrain someone like that doesn't look good either.

I've been in situations where a girl was completely out of control, screaming and throwing shit at me. I can't exactly leave since it was either my sister or my ex , both of whom I'm responsible for.

I'm just sick of this free card women believe they deserve.
I was trying to avoid this topic, because I know I'm gonna come off sounding like a jerk, but screw it.

"You wanna do the man dance? First dance is yours. "
-Way of the Gun

/ no really I'm not bitter :mad:
// Would never hit some one unless necessary, since it usually won't help
/// Doesn't mean I don't think it would make me feel better

Self defence is self defense. The gender of your attacker does not matter.

Well if they're weaker (and women typically, but not always, are) then I definitely think you should just walk away, or failing that, restrain them (I used to do that to my brother when we fought, by sitting on him :D and no I'm not fat). However, I want to present you with a hypothetical situation (since you said a man should NEVER hit a woman):

Bertha is a 175 lb, 5'4" wrestler. She is intimately involved with Frederick, a 160 lb, 5'10" accountant. Bertha has a bit of an aggression issue due to the supplements she takes, and when she gets in a fight with Frederick, because he hasn't touched his meatloaf, she backhands him. Frederick, reeling, tries to walk away. She comes in and attacks again. He tries to run. She's faster.

What should Frederick do? He can't outrun her, he can't restrain her, and he's running out of options.

I understand your opinion that women should never be hit by a man. However, this viewpoint is detrimental. Firstly, even with this social taboo, men are stilling hitting women; hence, it does not work. Secondly, it gives women a victim mentality when it comes to physical violence. They also do not expect it, because everyone knows not to hit a woman, right? When you get physical with a man, you know he's likely to hit back if you are also a man. With women, they don't expect you to actually fight back aside from restraining, which means that if they do get hit, they are completely uprepared and can suffer harsher injuries, not to mention have a higher probability of getting into fights that they otherwise would avoid.

You leave so you don't escalate a situation that doesn't need to be escalated. It's one thing to take it to a jerk who is getting in your face. It's another thing to start swinging on a loved one who is this case (male v. female) is smaller, not as strong, and not inflicting serious harm. There is no honor is beating the shit out of a woman, even if she deserved. There is honor in punching the jerk who thinks it's straight if he hits his lady. Guess I am just an old school chavunistic pig who things it's wrong to hit woman when there is no reason too.

Also in the case of Bertha it isn't a simple domestic situation, she sounds like she is trying to put the hurt on the guy. He can't out run her, then his only option would be to step up toe to toe.

Women are not always smaller, weaker, and harmless.

Sorry but you don't know what caused the situation to escalate to that point. The truly honorable thing to do is stop the situation. There is nothing wrong with defending yourself with reasonable force.

Not always, but the vast majority of the time they are. Also the majority of the time even when they are bigger, they are still weaker; and I didn't say harmless, I said they are less likely to inflict serious harm, which is true.

Paul also made no mention of wounds on his friends, only that the girl had a black eye. And besides what is reasonable about cracking a woman in the face when they can more often then not be over powered and restrained so as they are not a harm to you.

guthmund, if you really think that a larger, stronger man, who "rams his fist into" his girlfriends face, or eyesocket, isn't going to result in something more noticeable than a "little bit of a black eye," then you haven't been in very many fights.

If I slap my wife in her face, she's going to have a black eye.
If I punched her in the head in anger, she would probably need to see a doctor.

It isn't presumption on my part at all to say if all those conditions are true, then more damage would have ben apparent. I've been in enough fights to know the damage a full grown man's fist can inflict on another person's face--regardless the victim's gender.

i said both times that i dont think its okay for anyone to hit anyone! and that some women are bigger/stronger... thats not normally the case. if shes inflicting damage ..then sometimes its okay to use self defense...but i dont think its okay to use more force then shes using or to hit her before you try to walk out or restrain her. bertha ..you would need self defense against HER..not your average girlfriend who you can probably carry around. i'm sorry i think a man who has to resort to hitting a woman is a coward and a boy. i dont think its a matter of a free card that "we" want to be dealt...if i was a smaller man in a homosexual relationship i would expect the same...even if i was the more feminine/softer/weaker partner in any relationship..and whats all this about us playing men?? i like to play football what does that make me? what makes something a "mans" field of work or play? did you guys pee on it and mark it with yoru scent so that anything with a vagina is trespassing on YOUR turf?

The woman/smaller person obviously can't show enough restraint to stop themselves from hitting someone, why should the man/larger person be expected to?

I won't hit a girl, but I'll slap a ho :)

No, I haven't been in too many fights. Plenty of opportunities, I guess, it's just that hardly any of them ever escalated far enough to warrant me getting physical. (But hey, kudos for indirectly calling my manhood into question. ;) )

Sure it's presumption. You presume, I presume, we all presume, because we aren't intimately related with the subjects of our discussion. You don't know either one, so, you presume that because he's a man and you're a man, you guys are on equal footing. You know that when you throw a punch, it's going to do some damage. How do you know that about the 'boyfriend?' Maybe he can't throw a punch. Maybe there's no power behind the punch. There was alcohol involved, I'm sure that affected his motor skills.

Not to mention all the variables on the other side of the fight. I mean, some people can take an awful lot of punishment, especially when alcohol is involved, which it was. Some people bruise easier than others. Sometimes a last minute flinch prevents damage, sometimes it enhances it, all depending on where the blow actually fell. All these factors, and countless others, mind you, can make an injury look much less or much worse than it actually is.

But that doesn't even matter, in my opinion. To me, this isn't about men hitting women, it's the strong picking on the weak. He's presumably the stronger of the two. Instead of walking away, simply fending her off, or even trying to restrain her in some manner, he punched her. He wasn't defending himself from bodily harm, he was retaliating in kind. She was wrong too, but in that situation, I believe he should have just walked away.

I'm going to be frank. it sounds to me like you're getting the cake and eating it too. I feel that either you should get equal treatment in all areas of life, or get "special treatment" (pulling chairs, opening doors, etc. and not because of courtesy) and so get that special treatment in other areas that involve physical exertion and/or danger.

If i'm going to have to watch out for you and protect your frail/weak body from other guys, why would you think it would sound like a good idea to let you play football or operate heavy machinery? It's just two sides of the same coin. It's hypocritical to want equal rights then change your mind when it benefits you to do so.

Um... if I EVER hit a girl, I'd EXPECT my friends to check me. Hell I'd want them to. It's not "acting hypermasculine", it's a friend doing one of his (in my opinion) duties as a friend. You may see things differently, but IMO hitting a girl ranks up there with stealing a car. There's no excuse for it unless it was extraordinary circumstances (I.E. life threatened).

Otherwise there's PLENTY of ways to avoid it. Holding a womans wrist is one of the easiest, even pushing her down if she's biting or kicking.

That being said, anyone who stays with a girl who throws those stupid tantrems is as dumb as the girl he's with.

guthmund, the only way you could interpret what I wrote as questioning your manhood is if you linked fighting abilities (or how many fights you've been in) with manhood.
but that's pretty much what I suspect is underpinning a lot of responses here.

kinkykiwi seems to like the thought of friends taking their friends out back and beating the shit out of them as a "duty" to check someone. that's great if she wants more men like that. she should probably be told by the more experienced women in here that those are the men who are most likely to haul off and hit her when they're angry and/or intoxicated.

people like seaver, if he acts like he posts, are more likely to hit a woman in a momentary lapse of control, or as a threat to his perceived root of masculinity as attached to violence, are more likely to become violent than someone who says, you know, maybe you should not go around punching people to prove points.

now, I used to think like that when I was a kid in high school. but that's a long time ago.
and while I still can hold my own, and have no problem with defending someone who isn't at fault but is still in jeopardy at a reasonable level, friendship, to me, is about respect and not proving things to one another.

Wow Smooth, it must be hard to take notice of people like you have with them being so far below your line of sight.

*shakes head* if i play football with my male friends i expect them to take into account that i'm a girl.. i supose i phrased it wrong..i didnt just mean physical jobs/games someone referred to women trying to be men in mens jobs...what i mean is that what makes a particular "field" a mans field? and the 2 people who i said that there should be more of were both talking about situations with strangers where without any real reason hit women. then you betcha i think that they deserve to be beaten up. i would expect a friend to talk to his friend first then then if it ever happend again do exactly what he had done to teh girl maybe a few times worse. also..its like women can be differnt when its "bertha" whos in question...but yes some women are able to beat the living shit outta men and demand to be treated like men..okay thats fine..women liek me on on the other end of that spectrum..i know i'm a "girly girl" i cling to my bfs arm and i expect him to be the one wearing a watch, picking me up, taking me where were going, and if a situation ever (god forbid) came up i would expect him to protect me with yes even violence.

maybe i am old fashioned and crazy but i really do think that men shouldnt hit women. if you have NO OTHER CHOICE thats differnt..the friend in this case wasnt exactly bleeding out his ears from what i gather and shes probably not a bertha type..gentlemen are supposed to treat every woman/girl as ladies...hitting a woman is the equivelent of beating up your mother.

well, kinkykiwi, what they said was that they would break someone's jaw and things of that nature if they witnessed something in public. one even bragged about hospitalizing someone for slapping a girl.

EDIT:
Irishsean:
smells like hyperbole: maybe sean was able to determine the girl's broken bones from a distance, perhaps she really flew 6 feet through the air from a backhand, but he didn't stop beating the guy with a 1.5 foot flashlight until the police came to the scene. lovetaps to the head?

Seaver:
Hopefully you never deserve to be slapped, kinkykiwi. And hopefully someone you love who grabs you or slaps you in anger doesn't get killed by someone like this. I have to admit, you are the first woman I have ever met who supported this kind of behavior. All other women I've ever been with and known would be scared shitless to date a person who acted and thought like these two posts indicate. My wife wouldn't be cool seeing me beat the "shit" out of someone, for any reason, or speaking about beating someone unconscious with a maglight as "lovetaps."
/END EDIT

I know what you were talking about. That's why I suggested you talk to some people who are more experienced with violent persons and/or other females who have been abused. Both will tell you that the person who thinks it's fine to prove a point with violence, especially if that person sees masculinity linked to violence, will be more likely to physically abuse a woman in anger. there is a line, and you will one day inadvertadly cross it. that line becomes increasingly easier to cross if the parties are intoxicated.

the rule you are referring to, grew up with, or whatever, that men don't hit women, is an artifact of an addage from paternalistic times: young men grow up thinking their ability to fight, to defend the "weaker sex", to prove points with violence--those are the things that prove their manhood to themselves and to others. unfortunately, many of the men who told their children and nephews this phrase, they were the ones who beat their women when they got home from work, nothing like a man's castle. this is in the research over and over and over again.

none of the people in here who said these posters were acting too violently, myself included, said it was ok to hit women. we just don't carve them out a special niche, preferring instead to urge someone to walk away, restrain someone, or contact law enforement if you feel so compelled to get involved in something after the fact when both parties are calm and apparently came to terms with what occurred. You're blowing sixate's statement way out of context. When he said that a woman acting like a man, he isn't talking about playing football. he was referring to balling up your fists and thowing haymakers like you're in a bar fight. that's what that phrase refers to. then it got twisted on its way down the discussion chain and morphed into sexist statements about working behavior and recreation activities.


People who feel the need to prove points with violence, even if they build up some chivalrous mythology around its use, are people who are capable of justifying violence as long as the cause is something they agree with. The rule against hitting a woman is something they made up as a good enough reason not to do it, hopefully they don't have other reasons that might override it.

I don't condone aggressive violence against other people either, but I'm talking purely in the form of self-defense, in that gender should not have to play a factor; it should be the other person's relative frailty. I'm as caught up as anyone else though; I don't think I can bring myself to hit a girl no matter how large she may be. Logically however, I can see why someone might have to do it as a form of self defense.

I have no idea who you're replying to with the bottom portion, but football fields do get peed on all the time by guys. ;)

I grew up watching my mother constantly abuse my father (and me to a lesser extent). She punched and kicked him, threw things at him, and even came at him with knives and rolling pins (although she never did serious damage with them). He never hit her back because "it wouldn't have been right." And I completely disagreed with him.

She knew that she could get away with anything, and never realized the consequences of her actions on anybody else until I eventually started hitting her back every once in a while. This made my dad hit me, but I didn't care. An occasional bruise made her try to remember what happened after she calmed down, which she otherwise repressed. And it worked. She started to realize that what she was doing was wrong, and it became less and less common. Simply talking about things afterwords had never gotten anywhere.

As for just restraining her until she calmed down, that wouldn't have worked. It would have only made her more mad (and it took her a couple days to calm down no matter what). She also physically prevented my dad from leaving. If he pushed her out of the way to get out of the house, she'd start destroying his things or even chase after his car with her own (so he learned not to do that). On a longer timescale, my parents did not want to separate, presumably because of me (although they're still together). Also, my mom wasn't always crazy. Her mood swings tended to happen at about the same time every month... Luckily, she's now relatively normal.

This thread isn't exactly about cases of habitual abuse, but I think that this story does have some relevance. Violence should certainly be avoided, but it is sometimes justified. There are a significant number of women who like to take advantage of their "frailty," which I have no patience for. It doesn't matter that women are smaller. They can still hurt a man without too much effort, and are smart enough to know that a man could hurt them back with even less effort.

i've said it before and i'll say it again. if a man hits a woman without a true reason he deserves to have his head mashed in. and please don't assume that i havent met or been friends with other abused women. i was in several severely abusive relationships when i was younger and thankfully i got out of the habit of picking men like that when i was 14. men defending women from other men with violence is totally okay in my book as is it in many older more experienced women that i know. my best friends are guys and while they never get into fights on their own will step in on ANY womans behalf if they see her getting mistreated. they have never hit women and i highly doubt they ever will since most of them say that they would rather be beaten up then hit a girl.

if i misunderstood sixate then i apologize to him

i highly doubt that the 2 people who i complemented for their actions are wife beaters and yes i do consider that sort of behavior to be just.

this is what my friend mike said on teh subject (reading over my shoulder) -"i'm sorry but i think of women as these amazing, inteligent, beautiful, talented creatures. i came from a woman and simply because she spent 22 hours in labor with me i have a certain life long devotion to women. i admire what they can do...i love how soft and delicate they are. i would defend any woman with my life. i love holding my gf in my arms and that feeling of never letting anyone or anything hurt her. shes soft and sweet and even when we fight i still respect her body and her beauty and i could never taint that. oneday i know that she will carry my babies and i know what an amazing mother she will be. i'm going to treat my children to love and admire women as much as i do. my father is the same way. my grandpa is the same way. you should never hurt a woman..its like hurting a part of yourself."

thats how i was taught good men thought and acted
(and omg i need to clone that boy!)

kinkykiwi, you're a trip.

I don't see how Mike would agree with seaver's position over mine.

I never said a woman deserves to be slapped whereas seaver said he would "allow" it in the right circumstances. then he clarified that by stating a slap is in the force--not the execution. bravo.

I didn't make any assumptions about you. I just said to ask other people who have more experience with violent people and abusive relationships.

There are ways to ensure women aren't being hurt, a concept I share with Mike. which I actually agree with. I think that beating people with maglights is not fine, but that's an extra level I don't expect everyone to agree with.

before you advocate mashing people's head in, or mike wants to step up and brulize someone, you both would do well to ponder the unintended condequences of those actions: when the 6' 6 man got home, hopefully he didn't abuse the girl again because she "caused" his being mashed by irishsean.

I didn't say that anyone here is a wife beater. What I said was that people who believe violence is fine for reasons they construct in their head will inadvertadely run into a point in their lives where they will resort to violence despite the rules they make.

seaver said as much, it hinges on the force of the "slap" and whether the woman "deserves" it.


But I've got a feeling that many of the people in this thread have reached an impasse.
I'll sum up what I believe for anyone who comes across my post:

Beating up friends isn't about friendship, it seems like behavior intended to prove to each other and oneself the importance of protecting women.
Protecting someone who can't protect him or herself from an aggressor is admirable behavior.
taking it to a different level to prove one's toughness or masculinity isn't.
Abusers link masculinity to violence.
Proving points with violence isn't going to lead to positive results.

I can't understand why it's OK for a woman to hit a man and not expect to get hit back.... Why? Because of size? Or is it because of gender? Obviously, the answer is gender. Because certain women here bitch that the man is bigger and he shouldn't hit a woman, but lets go find the biggest dudes possible to now kick the man's ass who just hit the woman. Well, there's a size factor again, yet you don't have a problem with that.... Unbelievable. Anyone, man or woman, who lets someone hit then and doesn't defend themselves deserves to get hit again for being a spineless pussy, and I'm no spineless pussy that'll take a shot from any man or woman just because I'm more than likely bigger. That's just stupid, and I wasn't raised that way. I would never stay with a woman who hit me. The relationship would be over the second I got hit because I wouldn't hit someone that I love, and I expect the same in return.

Smooth I'm taking your last two posts as direct attacks on me. You are calling me a wife beater based on the fact that I DO believe that violence does solve things.

I'm never going to prevent people from defending their own safety. It's MUCH different then "allowing" it. If she has a knife and is trying to stab him I'm not going to prevent him from giving her a backhand.

What I dont understand is how you see someone who believes so strongly that hitting women is wrong that he would hit his best friend... and draw the line that he himself would do it. Violence isn't wrong when it prevents further violence from occuring (especially against someone who cant defend him/herself). When it comes to a woman being hit, not doing anything is the greater evil then your friend icing his face for a couple days.

Sure you can use your "call the authorities" excuse and non-violence card all you want. My current gf has been trying for 6months to put a restraining order on her ex. He has broken into her account and stolen $9k, hacked her ebay account and purchaced $5k worth of stuff, and to this day makes threatening phone calls. She has documented ALL of this, and has yet to have the police put through the paperwork on the computer. The authorities arent always reliable.

So what do you see as the danger? That because some of us have our head in reality that we KNOW violence does solve things that we can turn into the monster we're fighting? That's a personal battle, which is why I'd expect my friends to check me in return. I could NEVER see myself hitting a woman, even if she has a knife. So who are you to suddenly call me a wife beater?