Nancy

"The Scream was stolen today"

I'm surprised the security wasn't better than this!

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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

ShaniFaye

I agree, especially since this is the 2nd time the Scream has been stolen

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

maleficent

OK, so Norway probably doesn't have a lot of crime... but why on earth wouldn't they do something more to secure such masterpieces.

Why'd it take them so long?


This is the second time it's been stolen? And still no increased security, but then again, the thieves didn't learn a lesson the first time...

Hope it ends up with a happy ending...

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Verminous

*alert* Backwards country *alert*

SiN

^ I don't know how you jump to that conclusion...

Anyways..I hope it shows up, I've always liked this painting.

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brianna

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0107851.html

Kingdom of Norway

infant mortality rate: 3.7/1000;

life expectancy: 79.3;

density per sq mi: 37

Literacy rate: 100% (2003 est.)

Unemployment: 4.5%.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108121.html

The United States of America

infant mortality rate: 6.7/ 1000

life expectancy: 77.4

density per sq mi: 79.6

Literacy rate: 97% (1979 est.)

Unemployment: 6.2%


feel like backing up your claim?

ARTelevision

That's pretty wild.
I'm of the opinion that so-called "masterpieces" should be destroyed. They do nothing but oppress us and blind us to the significance of the rest of our experience. The problem is how we enshrine and blindly worship them because a cabal of "art historians" has deemed them "masterpieces."

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redarrow

ARTelevision,

I agree.
They should be burned and the ashes dumped in the ocean.

But you'll always have these yuppie sons of bitches who want to preserve the past/

World's King

If they never find it I'll paint another one.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

apeman

speaking as someone who knows sweet fa about art, i didn't like The Scream so i don't care

i'm sure they'll get it back though

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maleficent

They can always go to Art.com and get a replacement for the low low price of 20.99 -- there's a sale going on too...
The Scream

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smooth

I think a good point was raised that people want to enjoy a museum, not feel like they're in a military compound. Also, using stronger securing mechanisms would likely result in the artwork being damaged. Given that the pieces are too notorious to sell on the market, and that the past has demonstrated the artwork will be returned after a ransom is demanded, the security level seems appropriate.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Fremen

That just chaps my ass!

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Gortexfogg

Maybe they should attach homing devices on all their paintings so they can track them down when they get stolen. But, robbing paintings at gun point... that's just odd.

Mephisto2

I can't believe you made this comment ART.

What next? Start burning books?

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I'm stunned that you should say such a thing.


Mr Mephisto

ARTelevision

Yes. That's my opinion.
I understand that it is iconoclastic.
Our experience and how we recreate it in the present is what is of value to me. The existence of masterpieces or "great art" is a conspiracy of art historians. The canonization of so-called "masterpieces" is a lie that is foisted upon us.

I am conversant with the notions that stand in opposition to my position. They are the predominant ideas of culture. I understand that my opinion is not the be all and end all of experience. You will not have to worry about anything changing because of my opinion. I simply refuse to salute along with the rest of the promulgators, creators, and sustainers of high culture. In my opinion, the emperor of art has no clothes.

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ARTelevision

Oh, I forgot to comment on the "burning books" idea.

No. I do not advocate anyone destroy masterpieces except the artists who are responsible for them. I would require that my art be destroyed after my death, as it has no further value. I would suggest other artists require the same. I would encourage the demystification of particular artists and works of art and the destruction of the idolatry associated with "greatness" as there is no such thing and the idea that there is is elitist nonsense. This destruction of masterpieces I advocate is conceptual - except for their actual destruction by the artists responsible for them as I described above. The rest of us should engage in the destruction of the ideas associated with propping up the baggage of cultural elitism as epitomized in the "masterpiece".

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rsl12

GUNPOINT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIEEEEEEEE!!

i can't believe nobody said that yet.

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Verminous

Feel like making yours?

rsl12

verminous--you said something about norway being a backwards country. i guess he was just trying to set you straight on the matter. i hope that clears things up for you.

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rsl12

in defense of verminous--it appears verminous is from england, not the USA, and probably thinks the US is a backwards country too. who knows, maybe he thinks england is a backwards country for that matter. hard to say if he doesn't say anything though.

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Journeyman

Gah! While I'm not of ART's opinion, as I think previous artworks are capable of guiding and inspiring future masterpieces, there is a precedent set in sandpainting.

Trisk

I am completely appalled by Art's statements but I don't want to get into a flame-war. All I'm going to say is that art is something that has value and mantains it's value forever. How can you say that when an artist is dead, the art retains no value? No, I have not been brainwashed. But I am in awe when I go to the Metropolitan museum of art or some other musuem. I love art. It is appealing to the eye, it can be expressive and deep and tell a story and believe it or not, there is a ton of skill and knowledge that goes into a great painting/sculpture. Additionally, in many ways, the values of a culture find their way into art, making them valuable for future generations to read into and learn from them.

Please don't stand there and tell me that someone like Leonardo Da Vinci should have all his work destroyed. Don't tell me that the only value to his work is a conspiracy.

I don't know what to say but I doubt it's any use trying to argue or rationalize with you about this...so I'm just going to say that I disagree.




...As for the topic at hand. It's the museum's fault. What kind of idiot puts priceless artwork into a museum with absolutely no security and expects everything to remain fine and dandy?

Nancy

I don't get why they haven't increased the security as well. But perhaps it's because Munch painted 2 versions of "The Scream" (they still don't know which of the versions is the most valuable one) so there are actually 2 original "The Scream" paintings. One of them was at the museum and the other one is locked up some where in Norway I think..

I think it will. It's doubtful that the thieves are ever going to sell neither "The Scream" nor "Madonna" since they're too famous and attract too much attention to the buyer. They're most likely gonna demand a ransom from the Museum

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Nancy

the two versions of The Scream

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

welshbyte

This is gonna add a couple of million to its market value i reckon. Makes me wonder a couple of things:

1. Do they get any kind of insurance payout from theft/damage caused while in the state of being thieved?
2. Is it gonna turn up on ebay?

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apeman

lol

apparently one of the last guys who stole a "the scream" put an ad in the paper about his new baby boy coming into the world "with a scream" ... they caught them after 3 months or so

BBC radio said there were 4 versions of The Scream in total mind

__________________
pain is inevitable but misery is optional - stick a geranium in your hat and be happy

ARTelevision

Trisk, I understand your position. It is the dominant cultural belief. It seems to me that considering positions other than one's own - especially if one's own is the most commonly held one - has some value.

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Nancy

P3 radio said that the thieves have already put the painting for sale on the Internet for the highest bid?!

Some newspaper says 3 and the news on tv yesterday showed 3 paintings. Apparently they only consider 2 of them as masterpieces. The rest are only preliminary studies

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Nancy

No. The museum will get nothing. The insurance cost 2 milliarder d.kr. per year which they thought was too expensive. In order to save money they haven't been insure for quite some time now. Big mistake!

apparently the idiots have already put it on for sale on the Internet for the higest bid

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Charlatan

I can see where Art is coming from on this but don't completely agree with him... I have always been bothered by the reification and commodification of certain art and artists. Why one work is cannonized above another, why we focus on the purchase price rather than the historical context and inherent beauty of a piece... Our experience of art is typically one of worship, where we substitute holy pilgrimage for a tour book and pre-recorded museum walk through.

A few years back I may have called for the destruction of all art that isn't in the now but upon sober reflection, art serves as a reflection of a time gone by... of one artist's impression of what was once immediate and is now the past... it can speak to universal conditions (love, fear, triumph, sickness, etc.). As a piece of film, music or literature can entertain, elevate and transport us, so too can other forms of art. The difference is in the unique form in which paintings and sculpture take (hell look at what having two versions of the scream has done to assayers).

If anything the mass printing of famous works, while further cementing the comodification of art has a least done some levelling. Now anyone can have a Da Vinci or a Van Gogh on their wall.

To me the key is cracking the cabal of art historians and collectors that Art speaks of... to find and preserve the art that is lost because it wasn't deemed a "masterpiece". The next time you visit a gallery... do yourself a favour and skip the guidebook... don't read the curator's comments on the wall... just look at the art and find something for yourself... the way an artist has captured an expression or the odd inclusion of a vase of flowers in the background...

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- Old Man Luedecke

ARTelevision

I had the opportunity to become friends with Tony Shafrazi because he became the dealer for my friend Keith Haring. He was involved in an action with Picasso's Guernica. See the text below. It has information relevant to the theme of 'destroy all masterpieces.'

"'For me, an image is the sum of destructions'

pablo picasso


An enraged man sprayed the words 'Kill Lies All' on Picasso's painting Guernica in the Museum of Modern Art yesterday. He was seized immediately and the red-paint lettering was removed from the masterpiece, leaving no damage. The vandal, who shouted that he was an artist, was identified as Tony Shafrazi. As stunned visitors looked on helplessly in the third-ßoor gallery where the huge antiwar painting hangs, the man drew a can of spray paint from his pocket and scrawled the three words in foot-high letters across the gray, black and white masterwork.
'We couldn't move; we were all stunned,' said Gregory Losapio, 16 years old, who was in the museum with his Scarsdale High School class. 'A man started to move toward the guy when he turned around, cursed and said: I'm an artist,' the student said. Mr. Shafrazi was taken to the West 54th Street station house and was charged with criminal mischief. 'I'm an artist and I wanted to tell the truth,' he said.
Originally the museum hoped to keep the vandalism secret, because, according to Elisabeth Shaw, the museum's press spokesman: 'Museums are always afraid that this kind of publicity may encourage other acts of vandalism.'


Source: The New York Times, March 1, 1974


Tony Shafrazi is now a well-known art dealer in New York. In December 1980, he said in an interview in Art in America: 'I wanted to bring the art absolutely up to date, to retrieve it from art history and give it life. Maybe that's why the Guernica action remains so difficult to deal with. I tried to trespass beyond that invisible barrier that no one is allowed to cross; I wanted to dwell within the act of the painting's creation, get involved with the making of the work, put my hand within it and by that act encourage the individual viewer to challenge it, deal with it and thus see it in its dynamic raw state as it was being made, not as a piece of history.'

In an art historical context, Shafrazi's conduct is regarded as vandalism. But how would Picasso have viewed the matterhe who himself painted over a Modigliani? Picasso's remarks are more in tune with Shafrazi's ideas than with what museums stand for: 'Ultimately, what is important about a picture is the legend it has created, not whether it is preserved or not,' and 'Everything I have done has been for thepresent, in the hope that it will forever remain in the present.' By turning Picasso's Guernica into a masterpiece, the museum helps to make the picture historic, thereby rendering it invisible in the present.

http://www.art.a.se/artvandals/03.html

There is an iconoclastic aspect to some art - perhaps much art, perhaps all art. There is a counter-tradition to the dominant mode of embalming the work of a tiny minority of artists in museological settings. For further reading on this subject, see Antonin Artaud's "No More Masterpieces" from "The Theater and it's Double"

A Google search of "no more masterpieces" is also worthwile.

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Charlatan

Unfortunately, this loss of context is prevalent in most forms of art... To me it is often a problem of time... We in 2004 are not in the same headspace as Picasso was when he painted Guernica... those who don't know their history cannot understand the horror of Guernica as portrayed in the painting... it is too abstract. This is not helped by the fact that mainstreams galleries tend to down play the politics in most art.

It reminds me of a few years ago when I was dragged to see Les Miserables... At about the half way point in the musical it suddenly came crashing home that I was watching a Victor Hugo novel... a story about the Paris commune and its radical attempt to rethink the politics of the day... All around me were scores of middle and upper middle class people in their suits and ties and various fineries... all of them thoroughly wrapped up in a song urging everyone to "join our crusade". Cheering on Jean Valjean and company in their revolt... a revolt that would be against everything that the vast majority of those in the audience would find, well, revolting. The irony rung in my head like a giant bell.

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- Old Man Luedecke

DelayedReaction

<Threadjack>If guns are banned, then only art thieves will have guns!</Threadjack>

I have to disagree with ART. We would lose a significant connection with our past if paintings were destroyed upon the death of the artist, or modern painters were allowed to "update" older works with spray paint. Although the art world in general confounds me (it seems like nearly anything can be declared significant or artistic), I believe it has value. To allow temporary modern ideas to permanentaly scar or destroy a masterpiece that has stood the test of time reduces that value significantly.

Mr. Shafrazi is well within his right to see the painting in some kind of "dynamic raw state," but much of the populace would prefer the original work not be modified to suit the whims of an individual. Masterpieces are property of humanity as a whole, and should be preserved as such.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

Charlatan

This issue is not really with the piece of art itself but with those who contexualize the work. Art historians, et al. make great efforts to control how we approach a work of art, frequently supressing opposing views. When this occurs a piece of art is rendered sterile and neutered (spayed?)...

Art should be a flow between the audience, the text, and to some extent the artist. To me, art ceases to be the artist's when he or she releases it into the world... at that point, the meaning of the work is strictly in the eye (and more importantly experience) of the beholder.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

rsl12

not so long ago, visual arts were unreproducible, and therefore the products of artists were unique one-of-a-kind objects. art curators were perfectly justified in ensuring that original copies of were were perfectly maintaned and highly valued. nowdays, it's much easier to get a print or reproduction (of paint on canvas, not necessarily of sculpture) and we can study art books and enjoy thousands of paintings from our living room couches. i see no reason to destroy art any more than i see any reason to not play a bach fugue. old art can still be appreciated and enjoyed by new eyes. a worship cult growing from an influential artist is not a bad thing--i would not be able to play jazz piano right now if i didn't have all my CDs of masters. the unduly strong emphasis placed in visual arts on originals vs. reproductions is, i think, an historical artifact that will diminish as reproductions, both on print and on canvas, become better and better. nothing to worry about--as is normal, it takes a little while for technology to become entrenched.

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rsl12

one more point--the originals in visual arts are more important than in other arts. Let's say you have a new bach fugue, hot off the press. every couple of decades, as the paper got old, you rewrote the fugue on new paper and destroyed the old copy. if you were careful, the boston philharmonic would still be able to play the piece exactly as written by bach.

if you were to take the mona lisa, hire an artist to reproduce it exactly every couple of decades, and then destroy the old copy, where would you be? that's why originals in the visual arts are more esteemed than originals in other media.

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Nefir

While I understand (and disagree with) Art's stance about masterpieces being dictated by art historians, and overshadowing other kinds of beauty and expression, I think the suggested solution of destroying art is dangerously nihilistic.

Putting all the aesthetic value aside, art, just like literature, preserves knowledge. You might not agree that this is a knowledge worth preserving, but destroying knowledge is a horrendous practice. Don't you agree?

Having your creations destroyed after death does not agree with human evolution as I see it, either. If not for the benefit of humanity in general, is it not my purpose, as a parent, to become the next stepping stone for my children to walk on, on the way to advancement? By destroying my creations, I would deprive them of the inherent knowledge it contained.

As for "The Scream" being stolen, I am sure it will get recovered. There's alot of money to toss around in the effort. I just hope the thieves don't do anything stupid, like burning it.

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DelayedReaction

The only way people can truly appreciate art is to study it, and gain an understanding of the context. Charlatan gave a good example of this with Les Miserables, and I've developed a similar love with Italian Renaissance Sculpture as a result of a class I took with the Curator of Sculpture at the National Gallery of Art. His guidance was immensely beneficial; he would provide the factual basis behind the work, and we would be allowed to develop our own interpretations of the piece itself. Art historians do have their place, but I agree that any attempt to railroad interpretation should be avoided.

Consider ART's approach though. If the work in question is destroyed or defaced, the audience will never be able to achieve that flow or connection.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

rsl12

on a related note--it seems to me that Art is talking about the experience of creating art, and how the creative force gets muddled if you're influenced by old artists, rather than life itself. one could also say that scientists shouldn't bother studying the works of older scientists, because it would hamper their ability to come up with creative ideas. art is more than creative ideas--there's technical knowledge associated with all arts that allow people to express themselves better. the destruction of old art also means the loss of techique knowledge.

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