Activists helping produce bored, cynical, 'dumbed down' students - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sixate · 05-10-2003, 08:20 PM

LINKY

Quote:

Study: 'Language police'
harming children
Activists helping produce bored, cynical, 'dumbed down' students

Posted: May 10, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

Activist groups acting as "language police" are exerting increasing control over American schools, resulting in bored, cynical and "dumbed down" children, according to a three-year study of education policy.

Diane Ravitch, author of "The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict What Students Learn," notes the classic children's story "The Little Engine That Could" has been banned in some U.S. jurisdictions because the train is male, the National Post reported.

"The Little Engine that Could" barred because train is male.

The book "The Friendly Dolphin" was rejected, she says, because it discriminates against students not living near the sea.

"Educational materials are now governed by an intricate set of rules to screen out language and topics that might be considered controversial or offensive," writes Ravitch, a professor at New York University. "Some of this censorship is trivial, some is ludicrous, and some is breathtaking in its power to dumb down what children learn in school."

References to bacon and eggs and ice cream also are growing in disfavor because of concerns over healthy eating habits. Mention of birthday parties has been barred for fear of upsetting children who do not get invited to them.

In her study, Ravtich uncovered through court action many policies of state and local authorities and educators that were deemed secret. She documents "an elaborate, well-established protocol of beneficent censorship, quietly endorsed and broadly implemented by textbook publishers, testing agencies, states, and the federal government."

Fearful of their titles being blacklisted, publishers are censoring themselves by removing anything that could conceivably cause offense, making classrooms an "empire of boredom" for young readers forced to read nothing but "pap," said Ravitch, who also is senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former education adviser for both Republican and Democrat presidents.

Some of the changes to books and test questions she found include:

Women are not portrayed as caregivers or as doing housework and men cannot be professionals such as lawyers, doctors or plumbers;

Elderly people must be active and not feeble;

Regional bias is to be stricken – for instance, a story of a mountain climber would discriminate against students who live in flat areas;

Girls cannot be depicted as watching sports – they must be playing them;

Children cannot be portrayed as questioning authority or being in conflict with adults;

Characters must not be orphans, ghosts or animals with negative or dirty associations, such as mice, bugs or scorpions;

Ethnic stereotypes must not be propagated, so people with Irish roots cannot be police officers and a black person cannot be an accomplished athlete.
Ravitch told the National Post the result is harmful to children.

"It bores the tears out of them and makes them cynical," she said. "The things around them are far more interesting than what they are finding in the classroom. The books can't portray what the children see before them with their own eyes so they dislike reading."

A Fox News report on the study noted how the changes have subjected educators to charges history is being distorted. New guidelines, for example, dictate American Indians should not be depicted with long braids, in rural settings or on reservations, but offer no suggestions as to what would be deemed correct.

The pressure on officials, which comes from both the political left and right, began as a way of rooting out truly offensive material, Ravitch says. But increasing politicization has resulted in "stripping away everything that is potentially thought-provoking and colorful from the texts that children encounter."

Ravitch believes the solution is to remove state and school board control of approved reading lists and trust teachers to select material appropriate for their specific classes.

Others, however, defend the changes.

"I think our textbooks should, to our greatest capacity, be free of any type of stereotyping," said Sue Stickel, deputy superintendent for curriculum and instruction for the California Department of Education.

"We need to make sure that all ethnicities are represented," she said, according to Fox News. "We need to make sure that both males and females are represented. We need to make sure that our materials cover the full gamut."

cheerios · 05-10-2003, 10:13 PM

This seriously hurts my head. What's wrong with learning about things you don't know about? Shouldn't you introduce people who live in the mountains to "the friendly dolphin" and the idea of the sea? shouldn't you show them what discrimination is? Isn't NEVER portraying blacks as athletes or men as doctors as bad as the reverse?

*sigh* extremists. *sigh*

spectre · 05-10-2003, 10:41 PM

Yeah, this is pretty stupid. I don't quite understand how discriminating prevents discrimination.

Lebell · 05-10-2003, 11:07 PM

*shakes head*

What can I say except that we are breeding a generations of consumers, with empty heads ready for advertisers to fill with desires for goods.

JStrider · 05-10-2003, 11:38 PM

its completely asinine... to say you cant make kids read a book about mountains because it "would discriminate against students who live in flat areas" is complete and utter stupidity... they may live in flat areas... but the mountains still exist and theres nothing wrong with letting kids no this...

and its sheltering kids... theyre gonna grow up in school with this unreal, "safe", and extremely sheltered view of reality and they are gonna be completely unprepared and unable to function in society...

Dragonlich · 05-11-2003, 01:28 AM

Lemme see... a researcher with an obvious bias against PC stuff finds examples of PC things in classrooms, and writes a report based on that. A reporter with a similar bias picks the juicy and outrageous examples, and tries to convince us that this is the norm, instead of the exception. Readers get justifiably upset and agree with the reporter that this is a bad thing. Reporter is happy, people are outraged, and the original research isn't even relevant anymore.

IMHO, as bad as some of the PC stuff is, in general it's not nearly as bad as this reporter wants us to believe...

cheerios · 05-11-2003, 01:59 AM

Dragon: given, and the source site seems a bit rightward-leaning... :shrug: but it still stands that this PC shit is ridiculous at all levels. Oh my god, I'm a girl, AND I have long hair? I'm a walking stereotype, kill me now! *rolleyes* this shit is ridiculous.

Macheath · 05-11-2003, 02:03 AM

Dragonlich, I'm familiar with this book and there were some juicy and outrageous examples the reporter didn't mention.

Like:

*Depictions of evolutionary theory. (dinosaurs)

*fossil fuels the primary cause of global warming. (wouldn't go down too well in Texas)

*Fairy tales and the supernatural. (Wicca)

Why didn't WorldNetDaily mention these examples?

Snoogans · 05-11-2003, 02:30 AM

This whole PC-shit is getting way out of hand.

greytone · 05-11-2003, 05:40 AM

Pretty soon we will live in an all vanilla world without any flavor at all. We don't want to offend those with peanut allergy, so no one can enjoy rocky road. The kids with diabetes will feel left out, so we will use only sugar free ice cream. Wait, what about the lactose intolerant. (This is the only kind in intolerance that we can tolerate because is is a disease and it has a much higher incidence in certain minorities.) We will have to use sugar free vanilla frozen soy product.

There, now every one is happy and no one is left out. No......what about the obese kids? Oh, they are more than 50% of all kids now and therefore a majority. We will just give their share of the ice "cream" to the rest.

We should be teaching kids to learn about and appreciate ALL of the variety in the world. That is what makes life exciting and wonderful.

Glory's Sun · 05-11-2003, 06:21 AM

This is really crazy. The kids will end up in loser-ville because they will be totally blown away by the fact that there are mountains

These people are off their rockers.

redravin40 · 05-11-2003, 06:30 AM

The number of complaints against text books and reading material made by the right (religious and otherwise) outnumbers those made by the left (or middle of the bird) by over 70% according to the National Association of School Librarians.
In fact in one state they managed to get any mention of evolution blocked from text book completely.
The number of complaints about books containing witchcraft alone is staggering.
Since I have friends who are Wiccan this almost amounts to persecution (can we all say witch hunt?).
If you want dumb text books just check out the ones published for the Christian Schools (that's christian with a capital C since they are convinced they are the only christians).

greytone · 05-11-2003, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redravin40
The number of complaints against text books and reading material made by the right (religious and otherwise) outnumbers those made by the left (or middle of the bird) by over 70% according to the National Association of School Librarians.
In fact in one state they managed to get any mention of evolution blocked from text book completely.
The number of complaints about books containing witchcraft alone is staggering.
Since I have friends who are Wiccan this almost amounts to persecution (can we all say witch hunt?).
If you want dumb text books just check out the ones published for the Christian Schools (that's christian with a capital C since they are convinced they are the only christians).

I know that my comments were not meant to address only the left version of PC. I am more frustated about the whole elimination of evolution from the schools than anything, just visit that thread. I think that most of those posting here feel the same way, based on their previous posts.

gov135 · 05-11-2003, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redravin40
The number of complaints against text books and reading material made by the right (religious and otherwise) outnumbers those made by the left (or middle of the bird) by over 70% according to the National Association of School Librarians.
In fact in one state they managed to get any mention of evolution blocked from text book completely.

Amen.

Things are so "vanilia" mostly due to fear of lawsuits. One wackjob says his kid is traumatized cause someone uses the Lord's name in vain in a book, and the book is banned to settle the 20 Mil lawsuit the guy filed. Total crap.

What do we think we are protecting are children from? They may find out some day that the elderly are prone to health problems? That many women once considered their homes their place of business? That there are those in the world who think differently then we do? This stuff makes me mad - children should be taught to acurately evaluate different sides of issues to help determine where they stand - not shielded from issues.

Glory's Sun · 05-11-2003, 07:11 AM

As far as Christian schools go they can publish what they want since they aren't funded by the government. They are basically independent so what they choose to teach is up to them. IMO, the evolution thing should be left in the text books but I think they should also teach other beliefs as well. Then let the kids decide for themselves what they feel is right. You can't really teach evolution or creation as fact since there is no resounding evidence for either.. why not show both as possibilities then a kid can discern what he/she feels is truth instead of just going with what is presented.

ARTelevision · 05-11-2003, 07:25 AM

As for evidence of evolution, guccilvr, there exists a massive amount.
The most you can say to support your intended point is that it is classified as a scientific theory, supported by quite a great deal of evidence.

redravin40 · 05-11-2003, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by guccilvr
As far as Christian schools go they can publish what they want since they aren't funded by the government. They are basically independent so what they choose to teach is up to them. IMO, the evolution thing should be left in the text books but I think they should also teach other beliefs as well. Then let the kids decide for themselves what they feel is right. You can't really teach evolution or creation as fact since there is no resounding evidence for either.. why not show both as possibilities then a kid can discern what he/she feels is truth instead of just going with what is presented.

Sorry but in the evolution vs. creation debate there is one major difference between the two.
Evolution is the best possible model using the best scientific information currently available. While not proved conclusively, it is based on fact.
Creation is religion, pure and simple. It has as much place in a biology class as the idea that the world is a plate riding on the back of a giant turtle.

Glory's Sun · 05-11-2003, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redravin40
Sorry but in the evolution vs. creation debate there is one major difference between the two.
Evolution is the best possible model using the best scientific information currently available. While not proved conclusively, it is based on fact.
Creation is religion, pure and simple. It has as much place in a biology class as the idea that the world is a plate riding on the back of a giant turtle.

You're right it is a religious theory. I was just saying that since they are the two foremost theories in the matter that they should both be looked at. I'm sure that will never happen and it doesn't really bother me either way.. I was just trying to add a slightly different perspective.

Cynthetiq · 05-11-2003, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheerios
Dragon: given, and the source site seems a bit rightward-leaning... :shrug: but it still stands that this PC shit is ridiculous at all levels. Oh my god, I'm a girl, AND I have long hair? I'm a walking stereotype, kill me now! *rolleyes* this shit is ridiculous.

Oh wait.. I have long hair...longer than any girl I know. I'm kind, compassionate, giving. I don't play sport, I do watch them. Hey! I must be a girl!

Jeezus H... every time I see this type of crap I think that we are just raising a bunch of thin skinned pansies.

Last night I went to a play starring Caroline Rhea called Mondo Drama, one of the skits they scream out the abusurd slurs of faggot, spic, jew, nigger, kike, gook, and then commented how there is no slur for the "man" who is old white guy. Pretty damnned funny because it was so absurd, but it was it's own social editorial commenting on absurdity, not making it policy.

BoCo · 05-11-2003, 10:08 AM

Great post, sixate. This has been discssed quite a bit in the last week or so on political talk radio shows.

It's the very reason that if I ever have kids, I'll be teaching them at home myself.

ICER · 05-11-2003, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
*shakes head*

What can I say except that we are breeding a generations of consumers, with empty heads ready for advertisers to fill with desires for goods.

I think Lebell has hit upon something here. The empty heads buy the crap. and those who can rise above it all. become the sellers.

In other words. The hunters and the prey. the Eloi and the Morlocks. Or Worse a world where the morlocks not only bred dumber and dumber prey to make the hunt eaiser and more viable. But give them lower jobs to serve them. It's really scarey when you think about it.

Tophat665 · 05-11-2003, 11:25 AM

<b>Suspect Source Alert</b>

Worldnetdaily makes Faux News look like NPR. Doesn't necessarily make them wrong, but I'll hear it from an unbiased or biased left or center source before I give it more than hypothetical creedence.

That said, there are idiots in every profession, school administration is no exception. The people who need to get hopping mad about this are the parents, and, if they do get hopping mad, they can be remarkably effective at removing or neutralizing silliness like this or school prayer.

Of course, the real dumbing down of schools comes from shamefully inadequate funding. How can we possibly expect to hire the most effective teachers if we do not give them truly excellent salaries, a pleasant place to work, and the tools they need to help children succeed. "No Child Left Behind" doesn't do this. It does the opposite. A carrot is called for an it provides nothing but sticks. I think the place where no child is to be left behind, according to Karl Rove, is public schools. They all need to move to religious schools where they can be effectively controlled. Teaching is secondary at best to this. Teach to the test - facts only - question nothing - critical thinking is not important.

So maybe the frothing psyco at Worldnet has a point (and if he combed his hair properly you wouldn't even notice), but is is one of many obstacles to effective education.

Disclaimer: I am not a teacher, but I was raised by teachers and married one.

Quadraton · 05-11-2003, 12:10 PM

I'd comment, but I'm too bored, cynical, and dumbed down to.

Elmo123abc · 05-11-2003, 02:33 PM

sixate how do you come across these great links i love reading them when im bored

krwlz · 05-11-2003, 06:12 PM

can we give up on some of the political correctness now? this makes me sick!! these are the people i like to say things like "why did the woman cross the road? who the fuck cares, why was she out of the kitchen?" too, just to piss em off!! just fucking disgusting!

by the way, im not sexist, but humor is humor

Janie · 05-11-2003, 07:22 PM

I cannot believe this! PC shouldn't be about this at all. I, like most other people these days, agree that calling someone "nigger" or "chink" or whathaveyou is not appropriate, and justly so. However, this is stretching it much too far. A lot of those examples are ludicrous, but it seems to me the author of the article uses such extreme examples to draw your attention to the situation. I'm not completely jaded when it comes to the idea of speaking respectfully, but in the case of rampant political correctness that much of the western world is so taken with, it seems these PC extremist groups want to erase history and replace it with a flat featureless desert of non-offensive information (if you want to call it that). But pardon me, I can't use a desert as my example, what about all those people who grew up near or in deserts? I wouldn't want to offend them.

nefarious · 05-11-2003, 08:42 PM

sometimes you wonder where common sense has gone ..

makes my head hurt O.o

MrSmashy · 05-11-2003, 09:55 PM

And conservatives do the same. Really, both sides make stuff stupid.

Daval · 05-12-2003, 05:26 AM

This politically correct bullshit is so fucking stupid. Excuse my language but it really pisses me off.

Can people not use a little bit of common sense and get on with life instead of worrying about offending people at every turn? This is why North America is sometimes considered a laughing stock when it comes to stuff like this.

My god I miss living in Europe at times.

05-10-2003, 10:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
spectre Junkie	Yeah, this is pretty stupid. I don't quite understand how discriminating prevents discrimination. __________________ "Fuck these chains No goddamn slave I will be different" ~ Machine Head

05-10-2003, 11:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	shakes head What can I say except that we are breeding a generations of consumers, with empty heads ready for advertisers to fill with desires for goods. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-10-2003, 11:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	its completely asinine... to say you cant make kids read a book about mountains because it "would discriminate against students who live in flat areas" is complete and utter stupidity... they may live in flat areas... but the mountains still exist and theres nothing wrong with letting kids no this... and its sheltering kids... theyre gonna grow up in school with this unreal, "safe", and extremely sheltered view of reality and they are gonna be completely unprepared and unable to function in society... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

05-11-2003, 02:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
Snoogans Veteran Location: Uppsala, Sweden	This whole PC-shit is getting way out of hand. __________________ Internet hint: If someone's asking if what they do is weird, it always is.

05-11-2003, 05:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
greytone Junkie	Pretty soon we will live in an all vanilla world without any flavor at all. We don't want to offend those with peanut allergy, so no one can enjoy rocky road. The kids with diabetes will feel left out, so we will use only sugar free ice cream. Wait, what about the lactose intolerant. (This is the only kind in intolerance that we can tolerate because is is a disease and it has a much higher incidence in certain minorities.) We will have to use sugar free vanilla frozen soy product. There, now every one is happy and no one is left out. No......what about the obese kids? Oh, they are more than 50% of all kids now and therefore a majority. We will just give their share of the ice "cream" to the rest. We should be teaching kids to learn about and appreciate ALL of the variety in the world. That is what makes life exciting and wonderful. __________________ I was there to see beautiful naked women. So was everybody else. It's a common failing. Robert A Heinlein in "They Do It With Mirrors"

05-10-2003, 10:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	This seriously hurts my head. What's wrong with learning about things you don't know about? Shouldn't you introduce people who live in the mountains to "the friendly dolphin" and the idea of the sea? shouldn't you show them what discrimination is? Isn't NEVER portraying blacks as athletes or men as doctors as bad as the reverse? sigh extremists. sigh

05-11-2003, 01:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Lemme see... a researcher with an obvious bias against PC stuff finds examples of PC things in classrooms, and writes a report based on that. A reporter with a similar bias picks the juicy and outrageous examples, and tries to convince us that this is the norm, instead of the exception. Readers get justifiably upset and agree with the reporter that this is a bad thing. Reporter is happy, people are outraged, and the original research isn't even relevant anymore. IMHO, as bad as some of the PC stuff is, in general it's not nearly as bad as this reporter wants us to believe...

05-11-2003, 01:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	Dragon: given, and the source site seems a bit rightward-leaning... :shrug: but it still stands that this PC shit is ridiculous at all levels. Oh my god, I'm a girl, AND I have long hair? I'm a walking stereotype, kill me now! rolleyes this shit is ridiculous.

05-11-2003, 02:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	Dragonlich, I'm familiar with this book and there were some juicy and outrageous examples the reporter didn't mention. Like: Depictions of evolutionary theory. (dinosaurs) fossil fuels the primary cause of global warming. (wouldn't go down too well in Texas) *Fairy tales and the supernatural. (Wicca) Why didn't WorldNetDaily mention these examples?

05-11-2003, 06:21 AM	#11 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	This is really crazy. The kids will end up in loser-ville because they will be totally blown away by the fact that there are mountains These people are off their rockers.

05-11-2003, 06:30 AM	#12 (permalink)
redravin40 Loser Location: With Jadzia	The number of complaints against text books and reading material made by the right (religious and otherwise) outnumbers those made by the left (or middle of the bird) by over 70% according to the National Association of School Librarians. In fact in one state they managed to get any mention of evolution blocked from text book completely. The number of complaints about books containing witchcraft alone is staggering. Since I have friends who are Wiccan this almost amounts to persecution (can we all say witch hunt?). If you want dumb text books just check out the ones published for the Christian Schools (that's christian with a capital C since they are convinced they are the only christians).

05-11-2003, 07:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	As far as Christian schools go they can publish what they want since they aren't funded by the government. They are basically independent so what they choose to teach is up to them. IMO, the evolution thing should be left in the text books but I think they should also teach other beliefs as well. Then let the kids decide for themselves what they feel is right. You can't really teach evolution or creation as fact since there is no resounding evidence for either.. why not show both as possibilities then a kid can discern what he/she feels is truth instead of just going with what is presented.

05-11-2003, 07:25 AM	#16 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	As for evidence of evolution, guccilvr, there exists a massive amount. The most you can say to support your intended point is that it is classified as a scientific theory, supported by quite a great deal of evidence. __________________ create evolution

05-11-2003, 10:08 AM	#20 (permalink)
BoCo Fear the bunny Location: Hanging off the tip of the Right Wing	Great post, sixate. This has been discssed quite a bit in the last week or so on political talk radio shows. It's the very reason that if I ever have kids, I'll be teaching them at home myself. __________________ Activism is a way for useless people to feel important.

05-11-2003, 11:25 AM	#22 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	<b>Suspect Source Alert</b> Worldnetdaily makes Faux News look like NPR. Doesn't necessarily make them wrong, but I'll hear it from an unbiased or biased left or center source before I give it more than hypothetical creedence. That said, there are idiots in every profession, school administration is no exception. The people who need to get hopping mad about this are the parents, and, if they do get hopping mad, they can be remarkably effective at removing or neutralizing silliness like this or school prayer. Of course, the real dumbing down of schools comes from shamefully inadequate funding. How can we possibly expect to hire the most effective teachers if we do not give them truly excellent salaries, a pleasant place to work, and the tools they need to help children succeed. "No Child Left Behind" doesn't do this. It does the opposite. A carrot is called for an it provides nothing but sticks. I think the place where no child is to be left behind, according to Karl Rove, is public schools. They all need to move to religious schools where they can be effectively controlled. Teaching is secondary at best to this. Teach to the test - facts only - question nothing - critical thinking is not important. So maybe the frothing psyco at Worldnet has a point (and if he combed his hair properly you wouldn't even notice), but is is one of many obstacles to effective education. Disclaimer: I am not a teacher, but I was raised by teachers and married one. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

05-11-2003, 12:10 PM	#23 (permalink)
Quadraton Addict Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada	I'd comment, but I'm too bored, cynical, and dumbed down to. __________________ "A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire

05-11-2003, 02:33 PM	#24 (permalink)
Elmo123abc Tilted	sixate how do you come across these great links i love reading them when im bored

05-11-2003, 06:12 PM	#25 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	can we give up on some of the political correctness now? this makes me sick!! these are the people i like to say things like "why did the woman cross the road? who the fuck cares, why was she out of the kitchen?" too, just to piss em off!! just fucking disgusting! by the way, im not sexist, but humor is humor

05-11-2003, 07:22 PM	#26 (permalink)
Janie Insane Location: Greater Vancouver	I cannot believe this! PC shouldn't be about this at all. I, like most other people these days, agree that calling someone "nigger" or "chink" or whathaveyou is not appropriate, and justly so. However, this is stretching it much too far. A lot of those examples are ludicrous, but it seems to me the author of the article uses such extreme examples to draw your attention to the situation. I'm not completely jaded when it comes to the idea of speaking respectfully, but in the case of rampant political correctness that much of the western world is so taken with, it seems these PC extremist groups want to erase history and replace it with a flat featureless desert of non-offensive information (if you want to call it that). But pardon me, I can't use a desert as my example, what about all those people who grew up near or in deserts? I wouldn't want to offend them. __________________ cheers to the motherland

05-11-2003, 08:42 PM	#27 (permalink)
nefarious Insane Location: Tucson, AZ	sometimes you wonder where common sense has gone .. makes my head hurt O.o __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum. - Vegetius "Do Re Mil.3, Prol.

05-11-2003, 09:55 PM	#28 (permalink)
MrSmashy Crazy Location: Soviet Canukistan	And conservatives do the same. Really, both sides make stuff stupid.

05-12-2003, 05:26 AM	#29 (permalink)
Daval Junkie Location: The True North Strong and Free!	This politically correct bullshit is so fucking stupid. Excuse my language but it really pisses me off. Can people not use a little bit of common sense and get on with life instead of worrying about offending people at every turn? This is why North America is sometimes considered a laughing stock when it comes to stuff like this. My god I miss living in Europe at times. __________________ "It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill