Saudi Minister calls 244 deaths at Islamic celebration "God's will" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 02-01-2004, 02:19 PM

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...MPLATE=DEFAULT

Quote:

Stampede Kills 244 at Hajj Pilgrimage
By RAWYA RAGEH Associated Press Writer

MINA, Saudi Arabia (AP) -- At least 244 people were trampled to death and hundreds more hurt Sunday under the crush of worshippers in one of the deadliest disasters during the annual Muslim pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia. The stampede occurred during the stoning of the devil, an emotional and notoriously perilous hajj ritual. Pilgrims frantically throw rocks, shout insults or hurl their shoes at three stone pillars - acts that are supposed to demonstrate their deep disdain for Satan. Safety measures were in place at the site - one where fatal stampedes have been frequent - but "caution isn't stronger than fate," said Saudi Hajj Minister Iyad Madani. "All precautions were taken to prevent such an incident, but this is God's will." The stampede broke out on one of two ramps leading to the 50-foot stone pillars. Tens of thousands of people were on the uppermost ramp, which is about the width of a five-lane highway. Authorities said a few pilgrims fell, causing panic as pressure built up in the crowd behind.
Brig. Mansour al-Turki of the Saudi General Security Forces said about 10,000 general security officers were on duty in the area at the time. Their intervention "resulted in containing the pushing toward the pillar to prevent more pilgrims from falling," an unidentified Saudi Interior Ministry official said, the state-run Saudi Press Agency reported. The same area was the scene of similar deadly incidents in 1998, 2001 and last year. Sunday's tragedy marked the worst disaster at the annual hajj since 1997, when 340 pilgrims died in a fire at their tent city in Mina, near the holy city of Mecca. Most of the dead Sunday were pilgrims from inside the Saudi kingdom who may not have been authorized to participate, Madani said. It was unclear how many foreign pilgrims died, but Egypt's Middle East News Agency reported that 13 Egyptians were among the dead. Madani also said 272 pilgrims had died of natural causes during the hajj. Many participants are elderly, and Muslims believe that if a person dies while performing the pilgrimage they will go directly to heaven. About 2 million Muslims are participating in this year's pilgrimage. To control the crowd, Saudi authorities set quotas for pilgrims from each country, and also require its citizens and residents to register upon arrival. Many resident foreigners, especially those from the Indian subcontinent, cannot afford to pay the cost of an authorized pilgrimage, around $530, and perform the pilgrimage independently, despite recent laws requiring citizens and residents to join registered pilgrimage campaigns. The chaos came after a sleepless night of prayer at the climax of the hajj, when pilgrims from around the world listened to Saudi Arabia's top cleric at the Namira Mosque. On Sunday morning, they prayed at dawn then gathered pebbles to throw at the pillars. Each participant throws seven times, chanting "bismillah" ("in the name of God") and "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great"). Calling America "the greatest Satan," Egyptian pilgrim Youssef Omar threw pebbles at one pillar on which someone had scrawled "USA." After the 1998 hajj, when about 180 pilgrims were trampled to death, religious authorities issued an edict extending the amount of time in which pilgrims could complete the ritual, hoping to spread out the crowd. A giant ramp leading to the pillars fills with pilgrims waiting to throw their pebbles, and Saudi authorities instruct pilgrims in several languages when and where to pass. Still, 14 pilgrims were trampled to death during the same ritual last year and 35 died in a 2001 stampede. The stoning ritual also marked the first day of Eid al-Adha, or the Feast of the Sacrifice, celebrated at the hajj and around the Muslim world with the slaughtering of a camel, cow or sheep. Meat is eaten and distributed to the poor. Copyright 2004 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

Spartak · 02-01-2004, 08:13 PM

Others will say it was "fate"... whatever floats the Minister's boat really.

yournamehere · 02-01-2004, 09:13 PM

And obviously, God wills it to be an annual event.

GakFace · 02-01-2004, 09:22 PM

hehe.. I like your poast YNH.

... Yeah if people are dying EVERY Year from this thing.. shouldn't that speak words?

smiling_bob · 02-01-2004, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GakFace

if people are dying EVERY Year from this thing.. shouldn't that speak words?

Sounds more like Darwin's will.

moot1337 · 02-01-2004, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smiling_bob
Sounds more like Darwin's will.

just what I was gonna say....

Slims · 02-02-2004, 12:26 AM

Dumbass,

By that reasoning, so was the Iraq War.

Spartak · 02-02-2004, 02:29 AM

No, that was because of fraudulent intelligence.

/me ducks for cover

aarchaon · 02-02-2004, 03:54 AM

Quite obviously God dislikes it when his followers show their disdain for Satan. Take that christian beliefs!

onetime2 · 02-02-2004, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg700
Dumbass,

By that reasoning, so was the Iraq War.

Yep, exactly. Of course, that will never be said.

skysooner · 02-02-2004, 08:05 AM

It was the line that said that fatal tramplings are frequent that told me all I needed to know about this.

Jonah Hex · 02-02-2004, 03:14 PM

sounds more like "gods lack of will".

or perhaps hes doing them a favour and getting them to heaven quicker because they deserve to get there before others.

God be praised

World's King · 02-02-2004, 03:37 PM

It might have been "God's Will" but who's God is still up in the air.

absence_of_color · 02-02-2004, 03:39 PM

That is extremely sad.

I dont have a response for the religion aspect.

ChrisJericho · 02-02-2004, 04:32 PM

LOL I find it entertaining when gods kill their followers.

milkyp · 02-02-2004, 05:56 PM

praise allah.

moonstrucksoul · 02-02-2004, 06:05 PM

ummmm, survival of the fittest?

tinfoil · 02-02-2004, 07:08 PM

Why do I think that the cleric is trying to save face? God's will, I don't think so.

/me kicks into son of preachers mode:

God's will was to flood the earth. He did so to teach a lesson to the few remaining survivors, and it wasn't about the joys of sushi. I can think of no lesson here, other than perhaps a lesson to teach organizers to plan more carefully next time.

/me sets mode -son-of-preachers

Is it God's will to make these people stupid / blind? I mean, seriously, a little bit of care would have saved the dead.

wry1 · 02-02-2004, 07:31 PM

Hey, if "God's Will" doesn't work as a defense when I'm fighting a speeding ticket, what makes this dumbass think it'll work now???

02-01-2004, 08:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	Others will say it was "fate"... whatever floats the Minister's boat really. __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

02-01-2004, 09:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	And obviously, God wills it to be an annual event. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

02-01-2004, 09:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	hehe.. I like your poast YNH. ... Yeah if people are dying EVERY Year from this thing.. shouldn't that speak words? __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

02-02-2004, 12:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Dumbass, By that reasoning, so was the Iraq War. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

02-02-2004, 02:29 AM	#8 (permalink)
Spartak Bang bang Location: New Zealand	No, that was because of fraudulent intelligence. /me ducks for cover __________________ I can read your mind... looking at you... I can read your mind...

02-02-2004, 03:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
aarchaon Insane	Quite obviously God dislikes it when his followers show their disdain for Satan. Take that christian beliefs! __________________ Green. Yellow. Blue.

02-02-2004, 08:05 AM	#11 (permalink)
skysooner Registered User Location: Oklahoma	It was the line that said that fatal tramplings are frequent that told me all I needed to know about this.

02-02-2004, 03:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jonah Hex Upright Location: Rugby UK	sounds more like "gods lack of will". or perhaps hes doing them a favour and getting them to heaven quicker because they deserve to get there before others. God be praised __________________ "Bother" said POOH as he was sold to the Americans.

02-02-2004, 03:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	It might have been "God's Will" but who's God is still up in the air. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

02-02-2004, 03:39 PM	#14 (permalink)
absence_of_color Insane Location: in a golden garden of grey	That is extremely sad. I dont have a response for the religion aspect. __________________ ...absent of everything.

02-02-2004, 04:32 PM	#15 (permalink)
ChrisJericho eat more fruit Location: Seattle	LOL I find it entertaining when gods kill their followers. __________________ "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

02-02-2004, 05:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
milkyp Tilted Location: Orlando, FL	praise allah.

02-02-2004, 06:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
moonstrucksoul hovering in the distance Location: the land of milk and honey	ummmm, survival of the fittest? __________________ no signature required

02-02-2004, 07:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
tinfoil Fucking Hostile Location: Springford, ON, Canada	Why do I think that the cleric is trying to save face? God's will, I don't think so. /me kicks into son of preachers mode: God's will was to flood the earth. He did so to teach a lesson to the few remaining survivors, and it wasn't about the joys of sushi. I can think of no lesson here, other than perhaps a lesson to teach organizers to plan more carefully next time. /me sets mode -son-of-preachers Is it God's will to make these people stupid / blind? I mean, seriously, a little bit of care would have saved the dead. __________________ Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.

02-02-2004, 07:31 PM	#19 (permalink)
wry1 Loser Location: Far too far from my Angel....	Hey, if "God's Will" doesn't work as a defense when I'm fighting a speeding ticket, what makes this dumbass think it'll work now???