Baraka_Guru

You know, this is like saying the military is the problem since so many people are killed violently.

It's a common thing to not be able to see the forest for the trees. The function of religion is not to live in alternate realities, no matter how it may seem on the surface. The function of religion is a guide to living -- how does one do good, how does one avoid evil, and other such matters.

When this gets hijacked by those in despair and who may or may not be sound of mind, it tends to force us to look at religion in the wrong light.

Religion isn't the problem. Militaries aren't the problem. Weapons aren't the problem.

Becoming distracted by this and we'll likely miss the real problems.

Seriously, if religion were the problem, what in hell could be done about it to make things better?

It's a distraction.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

new man

religion is a guide to living. wow. That is my point. It teaches people how to live a certain way, and says that other ways of living are ultimately an abomination of god's will. all religions with a god figure or figures do this. they may not openly advocate killing in god's name (though all have done this at one time or another), but the underlying message is that you are right and they are wrong. it just simply happens that islam is currently the most violent and backwards acting religion currently. do you feel that it is appropriate to discriminate against women? islam does. Saudi Arabia, the seat and founding country of islam does not allow women to drive, be alone with a man, or wear her choice in clothing. A woman was murdered here in the US by her father for becoming westernized. this would not have raised an eyebrow in pakistan, saudi arabia, iran, iraq, or many other places.

Willravel railed against iran killing atheists. Iran is a muslim run country. islam killed the atheists, for having different religious views.

I can't see the forest for the trees? maybe political correctness has blinded you.

FuglyStick

Ha ha.

No.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

new man

so you can name religions that don't do that? That there are religions that have never discriminated or said that "these people are going to heaven, these are going to hell".

Please, add to the conversation.

Baraka_Guru

Judaism is the easy answer.

You are having difficulty separating religion from culture.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Jazz

new man, you would have a great point if it weren't for the BILLIONS of religious believers of all varieties that don't go out shooting nonbelievers. Your logic dictates that The Beatles actually were responsible for the Manson murders.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

new man

Uhh, yeah, jews have. remember, jews are god's chosen and therefore most aren't even lucky enough to be born jewish, and forget about converting. so, their religion discriminates against nonjews. therefore, us vs them.

Religion is culture and society for billions of people. I still celebrate christmas, whether it is a christian, pagan, or amalgamation of ideas. Religion and culture are not seperate, they are intertwined for most people in the world.

Baraka_Guru

You've just demonstrated your ignorance of Judaism. You want to take another crack at Islam?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Xerxys

More like culture is influenced by religion. I agree that they are both different but the introduction of religion blurs the two.

Baraka_Guru

Does anyone want to tell me why more people have a problem with Osama bin Laden than the Dalai Lama?


I don't know if religion influences culture more than culture influences religion, but the too are indeed connected. But does this make religion the problem?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

You might want to consult a Jew (we have several on the TFP) about;

1: How the Jews came to be "God's Chosen." Here's a hint; God held a mountain over their heads and said "Y'all might want this Torah thing."
2: Conversion to Judaism; it's rare and it isn't easy, but it is done and there's been legal/religious architecture in place for conversion for centuries. My older sister converted to Judaism several years ago, and nobody at her Orthodox congregation gives her any flak for it.

Moreover, Judaism doesn't teach a Heaven-vs-Hell dichotomy; Judaism doesn't even posit the existence of Hell. Some sects of Judaism teach, in fact, that Goyim (that's non-Jews) have a much easier time attaining Righteousness because unlike Jews, who must ideally follow 613 individual religious strictures, Goyim have only to keep 7 universal commandments which are really pretty basic, common-sense stuff. Most sects of Judaism also posit that, when the Messiah comes and the world is made Righteous and whole again, all people will be resurrected and remade in their own primal, essential and essentially Righteous self; Jews and non-Jews alike. Not only does Judaism -not- posit the existence of Hell, it posits instead that -all- people will be made perfect (ie "go to Heaven") at The End.

Educate yourself.

new man

don't get distracted by my heaven vs hell comment. the jews who worshipped false idols had gold poured down their throats for not living the way their religion dictated. Blow down the walls of jericho. The canaanites. The Midians. us vs them. educate yourself.

Lack of political correctness is not ignorance. Political correctness in the face of reality is willful ignorance. And I'll take on all religions, for they are all based on false premises. But they go in order from most threatening to least threatening. Until Fred Phelps and his ilk start killing gays, then they are not high on my radar. pagans dancing naked around fairy circles? mildly entertaining. Priests molesting children, much bigger problem. But when you compare the reaction of christians to Andre Serrano's "Piss Christ" to the storm that overtook Europe when some muslim cartoons were published in a Danish newspaper, then you have to look closely at islam. Yale University Press self-censored for fear of violent reprisal in regards to their decision to not publish the cartoons in a discussion about the "controversy".

FuglyStick

The Atheist Crusader

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

silent_jay

Not high on your radar until they start killing gays? wow, so someone has to die before you notice them or worry about them, or give a shit about it? Seems like you have an issue with Islam, and blaming an entire religion because there are extremeists in the world is the easiest way, or a case of saying a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Hell you've got christians who kill doctors who perform abortion, does that mean that Christianity should be looked at closely?

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

Xerxys

In a sense yes. Think of the reason behind many actions carried out in the times. Religion appeals to a higher purpose. In the name of god encompass the spirit of justice, all that is good, all that is pure and all that is giving/fulfilling in life and creation.

The means at which this deity is appeased is also the tool used to measure ones purity.

new man

do you go after the biggest or smallest problems in your life? If your house is on fire, do you stop and yell at the dog for pissing on the carpet? Or do you deal with the biggest problem first?

Where do you draw the line between extremism and mainstreamism?

Again with the ignorance comments. I would argue that the amount of violence perpretated in the name of islam is not extremism. It is not the majority, but it is too great to be ignored. What will it take for you to wake up? will it be one of your muslim neighbors being stoned to death because a sharia court has formed in your neghborhood?

In reply to Jay's edit. Absofreakinlutely. it is killing in the name of religion. When christians claim that marriage is theirs and not for gays, then there is a problem. If the dalai lama stated that he was going to fuck up some chinks, then there would be a problem. The less influence a religion has on society, the better it is.

silent_jay

I'd tell the dog good show, he's using his hose to try and put out the fire.

Yet the amount of violence perpretated in the name of Christianity isn't too great to be ignored? Again you pick and choose, whichever one you have more of an issue with, Islamic violence bad, Christians killing doctors, not on my radar. When are you going to wake up? When your neighbour is shot because he performs abortions?

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

The_Jazz

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

new man

I just answered your edit regarding abortion doctors and their christian murderers.

How many people are killed in the name of christianity or judaism or buddhism or hinduism or paganism or islam each year? Also, is that violence spread worldwide or concentrated in a relatively small area?

Baraka_Guru

See, this is what I'm getting at. You aren't speaking about religion in isolation; you are speaking about religion and culture.

Christians fighting against gay marriage does not summarize any Christian tenet I can think of. But there we have it: anti-gay sentiment flaring up when they want to marry just like the heteros.

And the Dalai Lama going after the Chinese would be in direct violation of a swath of Buddhist teachings. But there we have it: that tension between China and Tibet.

And in terms of your thinking that there should be no religion for a better society, is this idea influenced by the Marxist view of religion or is this more of a totalitarian thing?

I reiterate: religion is not the problem.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Osama needs a good run through the barber... he wouldn't be so evil with a shave and a hair cut.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

new man

You are the one who kept insisting it was culture, exclusive of religion. As far as where this comes from, it is not marxist or a totalitarian approach. Religion is totalitarian. Here is set of handed from across the great beyond. If you do not obey them, you will suffer eternal torments. My approach is that if you try to abitrarally control my life without a rational explanation, then you are going to have a disagreement. Saying a voice in your head or book made these rules is no basis for legal or societal rules.

Baraka_Guru

This is completely false.

This is not totalitarianism. Most religions I know have practitioners whose lives are their own, free to choose to do what they wish. That religions teach about negative consequences for "evil" actions, or best practices for solidifying your faith, is not totalitarianism; it's moral philosophy.

I can only assume that you haven't studied religion or philosophy at length. Religious systems at their root do not seek to control, nor are their parameters arbitrary. And many of them are quite rational, and have a strong basis in most, if not all, societies and their rules and laws.

Are you implying that Islam in and of itself is to blame for this guy going off? That Islam taught him that this is the best way to act?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Xerxys

Well, I disagree with this but ... the rest is a matter of opinion.

FuglyStick

Goodnight, folks!

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

dlish

yes, goodnight folks.. dont forget to PM me and send me all your addresses so i can personally move in and become neighbour to you all...

you never know.....

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

new man

Religion is totalitarian. All islamojudeochristians are fucked because of original sin. You are born into sin and you can only try to seek redemption. Abraham, the father of the people of the book, was going to kill his own son. His son did not ask for that. So instead he mutilates his penis. Then he goes on to mutilate the penises of his slaves, who did not agree to the supposed covenant with god. You ever hear of the expression "slave of allah"? Christ claimed that the kingdom of heaven can only be entered through him. The free will claim was made by jesuits after the printing press was developed. People started reading the bible and saying "hey bishop, the stuff you said isn't even in this book. What are you trying to teach us?" So the jesuits learned to argue their asses off to confuse people and keep them in the catholic church. The ones who didn't became protestants. That is why jesuit schools like Georgetown university produce so many lawyers and diplomats. Clinton was jesuit trained. He got to stand there and ask for the definition of what is is.

Religion and culture and arbritrary rules. You can argue that prohibitions against eating swine, shellfish, lobsters and such helped prevent illness in desert situation with inadequate food storage. So religious rules incorporated that as a protection. However, religions do not evolve. Now we know that pork is just as safe to eat as other meats . But a religion cannot admit it was wrong, because it would be evolving. So eating pork is still blasphemy. There is your arbitrary bullshit made up rule.

Your comments about religion not seeking to control show a clear lack of understanding of the motivations of the religious institutions, their propensity for power grabbing and consolidation, and their willingness to sacrifice others for their own gain. Stop pretending that religions are based on a real supernatural force and instead look at the reasons religions exist. Power, control, the ability of the few to manipulate the many. Follow the money.

Other than that, I have no more to discuss. Nitpick every little point you want, but the thrust of my message is there.

Plan9

Somebody call EOD. We've got a live one.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dlish

That's where i stopped reading because what you said was so full of shit that there was no reason to read on.

Please, dont forget to PM your address newman, i'd love to personally become a neighbour of yours, maybe knock on your door and offer you some arabic sweets, baclava most likely. i'm guessing you wont open that door though.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

silent_jay

dlish can you move in next to me, I have a neighbour who needs to be taught a lesson, and you seem like the man to do the job

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

new man

Ahh, I see where the confusion comes from. When I said all of Adam and Eve's children are fucked from original sin, I meant that from a religious/figurative sense. See, people of the book will argue that free will applies with their relationship with god. However, everyone who is born is already a sinner from the original sin from a biblical/religious standpoint. So no matter how pure and noble you are, you are tainted(fucked) by sin. The only one who wasn't is jesus. I don't mean that all islamojudeochristians are fucked, or fuckers, but that the trap of original sin is the tool employed by religious institutions as a catchall for why you need their doctrine.

BTW, it is not newman, it is new man.

And you did bring up a good point earlier, in that how do we prevent radicalization in the muslim world? The general model is young, uneducated single males, but Hasan obviously did not fit that mold. National Public Radio also talked about how the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks studied in the US for several years, achieving his BS in engineering. Most people feel that exposure to other cultures helps mediate people's viewpoints. but that did not work for Hasan or Maliki.