Fleeing Libya - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

genuinegirly · 03-31-2009, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Hundreds Dead as Migrant Boat Sinks Off Libya
April 1, 2009
New York Times
By ALAN COWELL
PARIS — As high winds buffeted the Mediterranean, at least two vessels smuggling illicit migrants from North Africa ran into trouble off the coast of Libya and more than 200 people seeking a new life in Europe may have drowned, officials from the International Organization for Migration said Tuesday.

Jean-Philippe Chauzy, a spokesman for the organization at its headquarters in Geneva, said a seasonal wind sweeping from the Libyan desert churned the seas on Monday and apparently capsized one ship with 257 people on board about 30 miles off the coast. The other ship, carrying 356 migrants, reported that it was in difficulty and was towed to Libya, according to another official with the group, another official from the International Organization for Migration, Laurence Hart, who was in Tripoli.

Twenty-three people were rescued by workers from a nearby oil-drilling platform, and about 20 bodies were recovered. By Tuesday afternoon, rescue efforts had been halted, Mr. Chauzy said in a telephone interview. If the missing are confirmed dead, the toll would be among the highest from a single incident in many years of fatal accidents relating to unauthorized migration into southern Europe.

Mr. Chauzy said his organization was “still without news of two other boats that were caught out in the storm.” It was not clear whether they were fishing boats or smugglers’ boats, however.

Every year, tens of thousands of poverty-stricken people try to cross from Libya to Italy — a favored destination for migrants seeking to circumvent European immigration restrictions, often via a small Italian island called Lampedusa between the coasts of North Africa and Sicily.

The crossing spans a divide between the poverty of the developing world and the perceived riches of lands to the north. Once they have landed in the European Union, migrants may travel with ease among the 15 of the union’s 27 member nations that are grouped by the so-called Schengen agreement, which permits travelers to cross borders without identity papers.

Even as European economies shrink because of the global recession, the number of would-be migrants is unlikely to ease since their own homelands are also blighted by the economic slump.

In the past, smugglers suspended the crossings in the winter months because of the dangers posed by the weather, but “it is no longer a seasonal trend,” Mr. Chauzy said. “It’s ongoing. The arrivals on Lampedusa are regular.”

In recent years, many poorly equipped and overcrowded vessels operated by human smugglers have been reported missing in the Mediterranean with their human cargo lost or subsequently rescued.

“The boats have been stripped of everything to pack as many people in as possible so there are no life jackets,” Mr. Chauzy said. “The option of survival is fairly limited.”

“Because the boats are overcrowded and top-heavy they often capsize, and that sounds like a possible explanation this time,” he said.

Most of the migrants pay smugglers significant amounts of money for a place on the ships, but are often abandoned at sea. According to the International Organization for Migration, some 37,000 people crossed from North Africa to Lampedusa in 2008. Libya has become a collecting point for illegal immigrants who try to save money there to buy a place on a smuggler’s boat to Europe. In February, Italy and Libya signed an accord that was supposed to stem the flow.

Some migrants find menial work that Europeans disdain, but their presencehas jolted many societies, including Italy’s.

I'm clueless when it comes to Lybia's politics. This is the first I've heard of people fleeing the country. I suppose it's more of a meeting point for immigrants from other countries. But specifically what other countries - and how are these immigrants being received by Italy and the European Union in general? Apparently they're willing to risk their lives in pursuit of a better life in Italy.

A few questions for discussion:
Why are they leaving their homes?
Are they fleeing hunger, politics, or war?
Are they successful in circumventing the proper immigration channels, or are they running away only to run into a brick wall?
Does anyone know anyone who has entered the EU in such a fashion - and how did they fare?

ktspktsp · 03-31-2009, 09:07 AM

GG, they're not Fleeing Lybia inasmuch as they are Fleeing Africa. People from all over Africa try crossing the Mediterranean to get to Europe. Lybia is a popular route, so is Morocco (to Spain/Portugal or to the Canaries).
Some make it, some don't, and tragically, some die.
And of course they're not popular in the countries they go to. Plight of the illegal immigrant.

braisler · 03-31-2009, 09:14 AM

Oh... Libya. Your inadvertent vowel juxtaposition distracted me.

I read the post heading as Fleeing Labia. That is an entirely different topic.

Carry on.

Xerxys · 03-31-2009, 04:35 PM

Two thronged question ...

1. Why are they leaving their homes?

and ...

2. Are they fleeing hunger, politics, or war?

They are running because of dictators, unreasonable rulers and famine. Most of Africa has been a vicious cycle of no progress. Terrorism in Africa is regarded as "Rebels" or "rebellion" because really those fucks don't do anything except dismember and use guirella tactics to intimidate others in order to overthrow the govt. You know, pretty much useless tactics that can only hurt more than help.

These rebells feel that they have been pushed into this position by the above mentioned unreasonable rulers. I knew folk who were told to plant beans or wheat instead of corn but they didnt because "it's all they've ever done and all they'll ever do" and continue doing despite what reasons we 'city people' give them. Can you guess what happenned? Yes. The crop died due to forcasted weather trends then they blame the 'city people' because we didn't send aid fast enough.

Ya'll are gonna hate me here but the thing is ... you can't feel sorry for people who refuse to learn how to fish. This is a degree of ignorance that I must say has malice behind it. I'll explain.

I was a strong advocate of forests. The bastards just kept on cutting down trees!!!!!! WTF do you expect when you cut down trees? Huh? Deforestation? Common sense. Class 3 science. Trees influence wheather. No Trees = No rain. Period. And it's my fault your starving?!?!?!?!?!?!

Are they successful in circumventing the proper immigration channels, or are they running away only to run into a brick wall?

Some of them are. Like 0.01% of all the folk in a year. They are actually well organized until the end. Half of them put so much thought and planning in order to get there. The other half just run out of options, become ill, are put into shelters and when it becomes apparent they don't speak the local language, are sent on the first boat back home. It's sad really.

Does anyone know anyone who has entered the EU in such a fashion - and how did they fare?

He's doing good. He doesn't mingle with anyone and is overly paraniod. Has no health care and makes money on the side. His days are numbered though until a normal dude off the steet points him out and he's caught without papers.

In the EU, (most especially schengen states) after the red brigade ... they have laws that prevent a lot of things without an ID or even passport like getting a cell phone or even having a doc see you.

dlish · 03-31-2009, 06:15 PM

ktsp is right

libya isnt a first choice country to visit in north africa for anyone i dont think, but its usually a country they choose to go enroute before the illegal immigrants move on to their final destination.

you have many illegal immigrants from west and central africa as well as from the horn of africa (solalia, ethiopia etc) that go there to work illegally. usually they where they end up because thats where the illegal smugglers take them. anywhere away from their homeland for such people is a good start. they end up working for pennies im cafes and other odd jobs. always lookingo ver their shoulders for the police.

its a sad life that often leads to a life of poverty and death whilst being taken advantage of by unscrupulous smugglers.

its a sad story, and its one many dont think about.

Kingruv · 03-31-2009, 07:27 PM

Africa migration to Europe inevitable- Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi

Migration is an age-old fact of life that governments must accept if they want to manage the flow of job-seekers moving from Africa to Europe, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi told an Africa-Europe conference on migration. “Action against nature is like rowing against the stream, which leads to failure,” Gaddafi told African and European interior ministers at the first African Union-European Union conference on migration, the Libyan news agency reported. “Political borders, official papers and identities set for every group of people are new, artificial things not recognised by nature. Land is property of everyone, and God commands all human beings to migrate on earth to seek a living, which is their right.”

In 1974 Algerian President Houari Boumedienne addressed European countries at the UN in New York with this:

“One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.”

While Libya may seem to have come to it's senses by gving up on it's nuclear weapons program, it is more an alignment with global jihadists to go for soft targets.
Muslims have been attempting to infiltrate Europe in one manner or another everytime they perceive weakness.
Some of the people fleeing are trying to escape Islamic persecution only to find more of their old persecutors ahead of them in Western Europe.

With the unchecked flow coming into ports and unpatrolled coasts Europe's becoming fractured so quickly it is like cancer patient in denial. It is narcotized by the haze and dreamlike state of hyper-liberalism. As a charlatan of peace, Islam is happy enough to feed the addictions while it becomes strong enough to subjugate it's victim desiring to enslave it rather than kill it.

Xerxys · 03-31-2009, 07:31 PM

Gosh Kingruv, well said.

Kingruv · 03-31-2009, 08:04 PM

The two links below are to podcasts of Nonie Darwish.
Whatever you think is going on, you owe it to yourself to listen to these and check out the facts for yourself.
No security login is required to listen to these and they may be downloaded to your computer.

No www. needed.

cicentre.com/podcasts/Darwish.mp3

cicentre.com/podcasts/NonieInterview1.mp3

Willravel · 03-31-2009, 08:19 PM

Why are they leaving their homes?
Lybia has serious human rights issues, and the government is very authoritarian, despite being pro-West. While the economy isn't bad for an African nation, Europe is a much better option.
Are they fleeing hunger, politics, or war?
Yes.
Are they successful in circumventing the proper immigration channels, or are they running away only to run into a brick wall?
Like the US, it depends. Some are turned around by immigration services in France, Spain, the UK and more, and some aren't. When I was in the UK last, I'm pretty sure some of the maids were Lybian.
Does anyone know anyone who has entered the EU in such a fashion - and how did they fare?
Fraid not.

ktspktsp · 03-31-2009, 10:24 PM

So kingruv, are all those people risking their lives to get shitty jobs in Europe so they can earn a little bit of money part of an Islamic master plan to take over Europe? I'm curious, have they all been indoctrinated, or are they unaware of this master plan? How about the non-muslim ones coming from countries all over Africa?

Additionally, I'm not sure what the point of trotting out Nonie Darwish is. She's quite a fringy personality, unsurprisingly since she has a website named "Arabs for Israel" and goes on speaking tours across US universities, sponsored by pro-Israeli groups. She's certainly entitled to her opinions but they don't somehow become more valid because she's an Arab who likes to tell right wingers what they want to hear. Her only value to her backers is that she's a token Arab (and ex-Muslim, since she converted to evangelical Christianity later) who is politically on their side.

lostgirl · 04-02-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by braisler

Oh... Libya. Your inadvertent vowel juxtaposition distracted me.

I read the post heading as Fleeing Labia. That is an entirely different topic.

Carry on.

I too read it as labia. My mind changed it to Feeling Labia.

03-31-2009, 04:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	Two thronged question ... 1. Why are they leaving their homes? and ... 2. Are they fleeing hunger, politics, or war? They are running because of dictators, unreasonable rulers and famine. Most of Africa has been a vicious cycle of no progress. Terrorism in Africa is regarded as "Rebels" or "rebellion" because really those fucks don't do anything except dismember and use guirella tactics to intimidate others in order to overthrow the govt. You know, pretty much useless tactics that can only hurt more than help. These rebells feel that they have been pushed into this position by the above mentioned unreasonable rulers. I knew folk who were told to plant beans or wheat instead of corn but they didnt because "it's all they've ever done and all they'll ever do" and continue doing despite what reasons we 'city people' give them. Can you guess what happenned? Yes. The crop died due to forcasted weather trends then they blame the 'city people' because we didn't send aid fast enough. Ya'll are gonna hate me here but the thing is ... you can't feel sorry for people who refuse to learn how to fish. This is a degree of ignorance that I must say has malice behind it. I'll explain. I was a strong advocate of forests. The bastards just kept on cutting down trees!!!!!! WTF do you expect when you cut down trees? Huh? Deforestation? Common sense. Class 3 science. Trees influence wheather. No Trees = No rain. Period. And it's my fault your starving?!?!?!?!?!?! Are they successful in circumventing the proper immigration channels, or are they running away only to run into a brick wall? Some of them are. Like 0.01% of all the folk in a year. They are actually well organized until the end. Half of them put so much thought and planning in order to get there. The other half just run out of options, become ill, are put into shelters and when it becomes apparent they don't speak the local language, are sent on the first boat back home. It's sad really. Does anyone know anyone who has entered the EU in such a fashion - and how did they fare? He's doing good. He doesn't mingle with anyone and is overly paraniod. Has no health care and makes money on the side. His days are numbered though until a normal dude off the steet points him out and he's caught without papers. In the EU, (most especially schengen states) after the red brigade ... they have laws that prevent a lot of things without an ID or even passport like getting a cell phone or even having a doc see you. Last edited by Xerxys; 03-31-2009 at 04:37 PM.. Reason: Spelling

03-31-2009, 06:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	ktsp is right libya isnt a first choice country to visit in north africa for anyone i dont think, but its usually a country they choose to go enroute before the illegal immigrants move on to their final destination. you have many illegal immigrants from west and central africa as well as from the horn of africa (solalia, ethiopia etc) that go there to work illegally. usually they where they end up because thats where the illegal smugglers take them. anywhere away from their homeland for such people is a good start. they end up working for pennies im cafes and other odd jobs. always lookingo ver their shoulders for the police. its a sad life that often leads to a life of poverty and death whilst being taken advantage of by unscrupulous smugglers. its a sad story, and its one many dont think about. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

03-31-2009, 09:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	GG, they're not Fleeing Lybia inasmuch as they are Fleeing Africa. People from all over Africa try crossing the Mediterranean to get to Europe. Lybia is a popular route, so is Morocco (to Spain/Portugal or to the Canaries). Some make it, some don't, and tragically, some die. And of course they're not popular in the countries they go to. Plight of the illegal immigrant.

03-31-2009, 09:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
braisler Addict Location: Midway, KY	Oh... Libya. Your inadvertent vowel juxtaposition distracted me. I read the post heading as Fleeing Labia. That is an entirely different topic. Carry on.

03-31-2009, 07:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
Kingruv Upright Location: NoVa	Africa migration to Europe inevitable- Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi Migration is an age-old fact of life that governments must accept if they want to manage the flow of job-seekers moving from Africa to Europe, Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi told an Africa-Europe conference on migration. “Action against nature is like rowing against the stream, which leads to failure,” Gaddafi told African and European interior ministers at the first African Union-European Union conference on migration, the Libyan news agency reported. “Political borders, official papers and identities set for every group of people are new, artificial things not recognised by nature. Land is property of everyone, and God commands all human beings to migrate on earth to seek a living, which is their right.” In 1974 Algerian President Houari Boumedienne addressed European countries at the UN in New York with this: “One day, millions of men will leave the Southern Hemisphere to go to the Northern Hemisphere. And they will not go there as friends. Because they will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory.” While Libya may seem to have come to it's senses by gving up on it's nuclear weapons program, it is more an alignment with global jihadists to go for soft targets. Muslims have been attempting to infiltrate Europe in one manner or another everytime they perceive weakness. Some of the people fleeing are trying to escape Islamic persecution only to find more of their old persecutors ahead of them in Western Europe. With the unchecked flow coming into ports and unpatrolled coasts Europe's becoming fractured so quickly it is like cancer patient in denial. It is narcotized by the haze and dreamlike state of hyper-liberalism. As a charlatan of peace, Islam is happy enough to feed the addictions while it becomes strong enough to subjugate it's victim desiring to enslave it rather than kill it.

03-31-2009, 07:31 PM	#7 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	Gosh Kingruv, well said.

03-31-2009, 08:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kingruv Upright Location: NoVa	The two links below are to podcasts of Nonie Darwish. Whatever you think is going on, you owe it to yourself to listen to these and check out the facts for yourself. No security login is required to listen to these and they may be downloaded to your computer. No www. needed. cicentre.com/podcasts/Darwish.mp3 cicentre.com/podcasts/NonieInterview1.mp3

03-31-2009, 08:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Why are they leaving their homes? Lybia has serious human rights issues, and the government is very authoritarian, despite being pro-West. While the economy isn't bad for an African nation, Europe is a much better option. Are they fleeing hunger, politics, or war? Yes. Are they successful in circumventing the proper immigration channels, or are they running away only to run into a brick wall? Like the US, it depends. Some are turned around by immigration services in France, Spain, the UK and more, and some aren't. When I was in the UK last, I'm pretty sure some of the maids were Lybian. Does anyone know anyone who has entered the EU in such a fashion - and how did they fare? Fraid not.

03-31-2009, 10:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
ktspktsp Addict Location: Reykjavik, Iceland	So kingruv, are all those people risking their lives to get shitty jobs in Europe so they can earn a little bit of money part of an Islamic master plan to take over Europe? I'm curious, have they all been indoctrinated, or are they unaware of this master plan? How about the non-muslim ones coming from countries all over Africa? Additionally, I'm not sure what the point of trotting out Nonie Darwish is. She's quite a fringy personality, unsurprisingly since she has a website named "Arabs for Israel" and goes on speaking tours across US universities, sponsored by pro-Israeli groups. She's certainly entitled to her opinions but they don't somehow become more valid because she's an Arab who likes to tell right wingers what they want to hear. Her only value to her backers is that she's a token Arab (and ex-Muslim, since she converted to evangelical Christianity later) who is politically on their side.